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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-12-17, 23:00   Link #421
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
Have you not read anyone's responses? It is, in fact, not a grey road. At all. There have literally been pages of evidence by several posters that give nearly incontrovertible evidence that without his pre-positioned clones, his previous knowledge of Pain's techniques, his constant healing by Tsunade, Hinata's intervention in Pain's near slaughter of Naruto, and Minato's sealing of the Kyubi Naruto would have lost that fight. At best, he was a little weaker. No one is denying that Naruto is strong, he is very strong, especially with his new cloak. And the Hidan/Kakuzu example was completely different and irrelevant example (something I've noticed you put out quite a lot). They don't work together in desperation, they are permanent team members who work towards a common goal - the same cannot be said for Naruto and his helpers in the Pain fight.
yea i haven't read anyone's responses... you sure seem not to have read mine. people are helped constantly during fights throughout the entire series. that doesn't mean that the people who are helped are weaker than their opponents. sometimes it's true, sometimes it isn't, it's not a cause/effect relationship

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And the manga disagrees with you. It was said (possible twice IIRC) that had Jiraiya known as much of Pain's abilities that Naruto did, he wouldn't have lost. Even with that example aside, info on your enemy is obviously EXTREMELY important and can most certainly tip the scales in one side's favor.
please read the topic of this thread. knowledge has nothing to do with strength. i've been saying that over and over. i never said naruto's knowledge didnt help him beat pain. it clearly did. if you read my posts you would know that you wouldn't have to say that. again, it has nothing to do with power. think about it for a second instead of impulsively responding with predetermined suppositions.


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Preparing for battle and training are two entirely separate things. Do you consider putting a landmine with a remote trigger under where your opponent is going to be standing before the battle starts "training"? No, it's preparing for the battle before-hand, something that gives a testament to intelligence but not to raw power and strength.
thanks captain obvious. your point is what?


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I'm trying to be mean here, but if you can see the difference I have to chock it up to the fact that you physically cannot see weakness in Naruto. The difference is blatant and has been explained to you multiple times.
why are you trying to be mean. i wouldn't even have thought it if you didnt say it... lol anyway, as ive also said before, i dont think naruto is the strongest. not even right now in the story. im saying sm naruto was stronger than pain at that time and it is proven in countless ways. just read my posts since you clearly havent

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What we (well, at least I) are trying to establish here is if you put SM Naruto and Pain in a giant box with both their memories of each other's abilities wiped, absolutely no outside interference, and no pre-planning - Pain would win. I honestly don't see how, plot purposes aside, you can argue that to be different.
i've already addressed this exact thing and said i was on the fence. its a completely hypothetical scenario. bottom line is that in the manga (the real story) sm naruto beat all 6 paths of pain
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Old 2011-12-17, 23:42   Link #422
White Silver King
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you sure seem not to have read mine.
Yes, I quote you directly because I haven't read your posts...

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people are helped constantly during fights throughout the entire series. that doesn't mean that the people who are helped are weaker than their opponents.
I never said it did. What I did say was that you are not necessarily stronger than your opponent when other people help you beat him.

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please read the topic of this thread. knowledge has nothing to do with strength. i've been saying that over and over. i never said naruto's knowledge didnt help him beat pain. it clearly did. if you read my posts you would know that you wouldn't have to say that. again, it has nothing to do with power.
Again, I never said it did. Knowledge obviously doesn't equate to physical prowess, but it's effects cannot be ignored in a battle like one between Pain and Jiraiya/Naruto when it had such a profound effect.

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think about it for a second instead of impulsively responding with predetermined suppositions.
Seriously? You've been regurgitating the same responses again and again and my responses are "impulsive" and "predetermined suppositions?"

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thanks captain obvious. your point is what?
Very original. My point is this:

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Pretty much. And in the same way that Shikamaru wouldn't perform as well without his battle planning, Naruto wouldn't have done as well without preparing those clones to recharge his Sage Chakra.
Your response:
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and pain wouldn't perform as well if he never trained... just saying that this doesn't really have a point
Its apparently not as obvious to as you believe that training and pre-planning are different concepts.

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why are you trying to be mean.
That was a typo, I meant "Not". Sorry about that.

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bottom line is that in the manga (the real story) sm naruto beat all 6 paths of pain
Bottom line is, in the manga, SM Naruto beat the 6 Paths of Pain with help, pre-planning, and considerable luck, not just his strength.

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im saying sm naruto was stronger than pain at that time and it is proven in countless ways. just read my posts since you clearly havent
I guess I'll end this with yet another agree to disagree because, despite your beliefs, I have read your posts - I just happen to agree with everyone else and the facts that they have proven in countless ways.
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Old 2011-12-18, 00:29   Link #423
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This whole debate has become tiresome.

Naruto beat a stronger pain
Sasuke beat a stronger oro
Sasuke beat a stronger itachi
Gaara beat a stronger kimmimaro

The list goes on and on. Just because you win doesn't make you more powerful.
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Old 2011-12-18, 04:28   Link #424
Divinegundam
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Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
How do you put him below Oro, Hashi, and Tobirama when you yourself said he beat all of them (2 of whom were Edo'ed) in old age... at the same time!
Although they were the 1st and 2nd hokage's.......I don't think they would fall victim to simple explosive tags. I think Orc did not know enough of the 1st and 2nd's skill set to make full use of them. This is one reason why Kabuto is letting Madara do his own thing he would know how to use Madara. Also the dead demon.........sealed the deal lol. However to show that much ability and charka at 80+ speak volumes about what he was in his prime. Still Sarutobi and minato could easily switch ranks at 3 and 4

DBZ reference: Ginyu possessing Goku's body; he didn't know how to use it.



It was Sasukemaru's list that i modified to fit how i rank them.


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Originally Posted by Divinegundam View Post
I will use spaces to illustrate the difference between individuals. The more space denotes the gap in overall strength. This is how it should be ranked IMO.

1. Sage 6 paths( Made the Moon enough said)




*****EDO Rinnegan Mokuton Immortal Madara (no "will of fire" so not at Sage level)*****




2.Tobi rinnegan Mokuton (Too many Buffs too many extra eye to use izanagi)

3.Sarutobi prime (He took on 2 Hokages and orochimaru at age 80+....damn!!)
4.Minato

5. Hashirama
6. Ems madara

7. Ms Izuna
8. Nagato
9. 3rd raikage (you Can't hurt his body)
10.itachi ( the Items his Susanoo have give big buff)
11.tobi


12.2nd tsuchikage
13.2nd mizukage
14.3rd tsuchikage
15.4th raikage
16. 2nd Hokage


17.EMS Susake
18.killer bee
19.nine tails cloak naruto


20.5th mizukage
21. kisame (with Samehada)
22.hanzo
23. orochimaru
23. jiraiya
24.Tsunade
25.Sarutobi old


26.sage naruto
27.ms sasuke



28.danzo
29.ms kakashi
30.gai 8 gates
31.kabuto oro DNA
32.sasori
33.3rd kazekage
34.4th mizukage
35.gaara (w/o Shukaku)





****NON Kage Level****
36.kakashi
37.hebi sasuke
38.deidara
39.kakuzu
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Old 2011-12-18, 07:41   Link #425
ZGoten
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You should probably put your list in some spoiler tags, Divinegundam.

But let me come up with my own. I am going to exlude Pain, as in Pain, not Nagato, though, because he's much more a weapon than a ninja himself. Also, I'll solely focus on characters we have at least seen fight once. Just for fun, I'm going to measure everyone's strength by Minato's standard, which I am going to set at 100. Lol.

Spoiler for manga:
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Last edited by ZGoten; 2011-12-18 at 08:47.
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Old 2011-12-18, 12:28   Link #426
Divinegundam
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
You should probably put your list in some spoiler tags, Divinegundam.

But let me come up with my own. I am going to exlude Pain, as in Pain, not Nagato, though, because he's much more a weapon than a ninja himself. Also, I'll solely focus on characters we have at least seen fight once. Just for fun, I'm going to measure everyone's strength by Minato's standard, which I am going to set at 100. Lol.

Spoiler for manga:
First off, I like your format; i will build on it later. If we go just on "Battle power" from what we can hypothesize from the manga, which i think is charka level, i would make some adjustment to your list. Now that i think of it when redoing Sasukemaru's list i was thinking of "BP" and Skill/expereince to determine ranking. Some in my ranking won out a higher ranking based on there "Bp" being so damn high that it negated a lack of experience when compared to someone else in their group and vice versa.

Just on "bp"(chakra) Kakashi should not be on the list (pushing my fanboy in the closet here) he has no where near the charka level as those on your list. Second personal i think A has more chakra than Orc; lighting armor is a real chakra drain. the Third Raikage i think maybe near Nagato. However most of your point i agree with especially Edo Madara just at the top with 110; the Sage would be like 150-180...haha.
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Old 2011-12-18, 16:01   Link #427
White Silver King
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Just on "bp"(chakra) Kakashi should not be on the list (pushing my fanboy in the closet here) he has no where near the charka level as those on your list. Second personal i think A has more chakra than Orc; lighting armor is a real chakra drain. the Third Raikage i think maybe near Nagato. However most of your point i agree with especially Edo Madara just at the top with 110; the Sage would be like 150-180...haha.
Chakra does not necessarily equal BP. Battle power is how you use the chakra you have, big or small. And, as we've seen, the person with the largest chakra pool isn't always the strongest.
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Old 2011-12-18, 16:50   Link #428
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Yeah, with BP i mean pretty much every skill, talent, power, trait or characteristic, that helps in fights, not just chakra level.
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Old 2011-12-18, 18:01   Link #429
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
This whole debate has become tiresome.

Naruto beat a stronger pain
Sasuke beat a stronger oro
Sasuke beat a stronger itachi
Gaara beat a stronger kimmimaro

The list goes on and on. Just because you win doesn't make you more powerful.
True, but it certainly doesn't make you less powerful either. It's just like the 'help' debate. some who receive help would have won anyway. it doesn't mean they are weaker simply because someone else had their hands in the match.

bottom line is this question: is the kyuubi's chakra part of naruto's power? i say yes. you and the couple other people i debated here say no. simple as that when you get down to it.

edit: and of course i disagree with that first battle you mentioned. the others are plenty arguable too btw. orochimaru was weak when sasuke absorbed him. sasuke was certainly more powerful at that time. he admitted to team hebi that he won only because orochimaru was weakened, so he wouldn't have been a prime orochimaru, but he was more powerful at taht particular time.

sasuke and itachi debate goes on and on. bottom line is you are right, but he didn't really 'beat' itachi

gaara and kimimaru is the same as sasuke and orochi in that kimimaru was weakened due to health reasons so gaara was actually more powerful at taht time. he just lucked out kimimaru was in a weakened state
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Old 2011-12-18, 20:01   Link #430
Divinegundam
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Yeah, with BP i mean pretty much every skill, talent, power, trait or characteristic, that helps in fights, not just chakra level.
OK that how I went about it to, I just did not classify it in one term. That is why I also put kakashi in the kage lvl he makes up for his lack in stamina with skill and battle experience while Naruto makes his way by mostly stamina and chakra. I would love if kishi would have Kakashi's Ms evolve into the rinnegan...... Win!! When I'm not on a tablet I'll make a new list based on the Sage (bp 200)
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Old 2011-12-18, 22:55   Link #431
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@ zgoten and divinegundam: why do you guys have kisame ranked lower than bee? not only did kisame overpower bee when they faught, he completely tricked him on top of it. edit: and how could you not rank Gai above kisame?

the way I see it gai > kisame > bee


also, I agree with zgoten about minato. he should be ranked above sarutobi. the 3rd even said it himself in so many words that minato was the best ever in the village. rikudo sennin is probably best all time right now though.
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Old 2011-12-18, 23:23   Link #432
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the way I see it gai > kisame > bee
I don't really remember the Killer Bee v. Kisame battle too well so I'm saying this purely based on my memories of their respective skills, but I think these three are a case of a situation where a tiered list really doesn't work. Kisame can defeat Killer Bee because he has Samehada to sap Chakra, and Gai can beat Kisame because he doesn't use Chakra (much). Gai however does not have a means of stopping Bee from using his cloak/Eight-Tailed Mode, and so I figure Bee can probably take Gai in a brute fight.

If Kisame had other abilities that put him above Killer Bee, or I'm just generally misremembering their overall abilities, feel free to let me know.
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Old 2011-12-18, 23:45   Link #433
itachi-san314
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I don't really remember the Killer Bee v. Kisame battle too well so I'm saying this purely based on my memories of their respective skills, but I think these three are a case of a situation where a tiered list really doesn't work. Kisame can defeat Killer Bee because he has Samehada to sap Chakra, and Gai can beat Kisame because he doesn't use Chakra (much). Gai however does not have a means of stopping Bee from using his cloak/Eight-Tailed Mode, and so I figure Bee can probably take Gai in a brute fight.
good points but Gai develops sort of a cloak of his own when he goes 6G and above which enables him to fight v2 jinchuurikis. he's actually doing it right now in the current manga chapter

Quote:
If Kisame had other abilities that put him above Killer Bee, or I'm just generally misremembering their overall abilities, feel free to let me know.
well it was mostly his ability to use sameheda that made him more powerful, but I consider that part of kisame's overall power.
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Old 2011-12-18, 23:48   Link #434
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^ Guy's cloak isn't made of chakra though, his sweat turns green and it evaporates.
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Old 2011-12-19, 07:42   Link #435
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@Akashi: Yes, that's pretty much it. Kisame is hard to classify because with Samehada, his strength grows with the chakra level of his opponent.

@itachi-san314: Even if that is chakra flowing around Gai, the power of his gates are not chakra based. If I remember it correctly, he just uses chakra as a gateway to enhance his physical power, or rather to set free his body's hidden physical power. And that is not something Kisame or Samehada can feed on.
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Old 2011-12-19, 12:10   Link #436
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IIRC, the flames aren't chakra. They're steam from his sweat being evaporated by the extreme heat of his body as a result of opening his Gates.
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Old 2011-12-19, 14:09   Link #437
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@Akashi: Yes, that's pretty much it. Kisame is hard to classify because with Samehada, his strength grows with the chakra level of his opponent.

@itachi-san314: Even if that is chakra flowing around Gai, the power of his gates are not chakra based. If I remember it correctly, he just uses chakra as a gateway to enhance his physical power, or rather to set free his body's hidden physical power. And that is not something Kisame or Samehada can feed on.
yea. that seems to be the case since its a taijutsu technique. no matter what though, gai is more powerful than kisame, right? also, gai does have chakra. im not saying that he has a chakra cloak but there shouldn't be a reason kisame can't absorb it which means its because gai moves too quickly and too powerfully to absorb it when he's in 6,7G mode. I could be wrong about that technicality, but I still say gai is stronger. he was standing over kisame's beaten body daring him to move an inch
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Old 2011-12-19, 16:42   Link #438
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
yea. that seems to be the case since its a taijutsu technique. no matter what though, gai is more powerful than kisame, right? also, gai does have chakra. im not saying that he has a chakra cloak but there shouldn't be a reason kisame can't absorb it which means its because gai moves too quickly and too powerfully to absorb it when he's in 6,7G mode. I could be wrong about that technicality, but I still say gai is stronger. he was standing over kisame's beaten body daring him to move an inch
Gai had to open 4 gates to beat a clone that only had 20% of kisame power, and Gai had to open 8 or 7 gates to beat Kisame in a weaken state if I remember correctly. Bee was protecting two people while fighting Kisame. Bee as access to chakra of the 8 tails, full beast mode & he's excellent at taijutsu; I Can't see how you could put Gai above Bee, that's like putting Kakashi above nine tails cloak Naruto.
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Old 2011-12-19, 20:15   Link #439
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Gai had to open 4 gates to beat a clone that only had 20% of kisame power, and Gai had to open 8 or 7 gates to beat Kisame in a weaken state if I remember correctly. Bee was protecting two people while fighting Kisame. Bee as access to chakra of the 8 tails, full beast mode & he's excellent at taijutsu; I Can't see how you could put Gai above Bee, that's like putting Kakashi above nine tails cloak Naruto.
just to calrify he opened 6 gates to beat a 20% clone of kisame, but keep in mind that it wasn't even close. kisame's clone was done in nearly the second gai went into that mode. and he opened 7 gates against a normal kisame and won impressively ending by basically taunting him to move.

as for bee, i think he is overrated. he's awesome, don't get me wrong, i just think that gai is better, especially seeing as how bee lost to kisame and gai did so well against him. also theres no way bee is better than gai at taijutsu.

i wouldnt put kakashi above naruto so apparently they are not similar instances
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Old 2011-12-19, 20:36   Link #440
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
just to calrify he opened 6 gates to beat a 20% clone of kisame, but keep in mind that it wasn't even close. kisame's clone was done in nearly the second gai went into that mode. and he opened 7 gates against a normal kisame and won impressively ending by basically taunting him to move.

as for bee, i think he is overrated. he's awesome, don't get me wrong, i just think that gai is better, especially seeing as how bee lost to kisame and gai did so well against him. also theres no way bee is better than gai at taijutsu.

i wouldnt put kakashi above naruto so apparently they are not similar instances
85% (of 7 gates) or 75%(of 8 gates) of his max to kill a 20% clone.... That sounds bad on gai's part..

I never said bee was a better taijutsu shinobi than gai, however bee is damn good at it couple that with 8 tails chakra; that's a hard fight for gai to say the least.
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