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Old 2011-12-19, 18:26   Link #1221
Smeckledorf
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Originally Posted by CrimsonMoonMist View Post
The moment I settled on that viewpoint was when Beato jumped and the ingot was gone as well. When it first happened, I thought she probably wasn't there to begin with, but when she was revealed to have jumped, it seemed natural since she wasn't even dead at the time,
so the ingot just disappearing didn't make sense from the magic perspective we where shown either.

To further that thinking, if we where to take Battler and Beato's 'I've sinned/you haven't killed in our world (or however that went)' lines literally. I'd say that would point to something like the EP7 sibling fight happening with Yasu not actually killing anybody, but expressing guilt in regards to her plans of doing so.

Trying to take Umineko too literally is a dangerous thing though...
A world can mean a lot of things. It could just mean Rokkenjima is inside of a catbox and we will never know what happen and Battler chooses to interpret a reality where Beatrice is not a killer. I don't think Yasu ever killed anyone, anyway. I think a sedative was used to keep them under until the bomb went off or the epitaph was solved. I just cannot imagine this story making much sense if Yasu was a murderer. However, it may sound contradictory but I know Yasu would let the bomb go off. There are just too many possibilities to be sure, especially with the flimsy nature of the red truth. It could look strong but in reality but weak. So, without definite confirmation, I would like to think Yasu did not murder one person directly. With that rant done, I think you are right in at least someway with your interpretation of Beatrice's sin.
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Old 2011-12-19, 18:34   Link #1222
orangejuicetang
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
They're still friends, but Dlanor never did approve of what Erika was doing, and she's finally fed up with it. "DAMMIT STOP BEING EVIL."
mhmm, I guess I can kind of see that.

That aside, what's up with Erika in the tea party? Is she still a temporary witch of truth? A full-fledged witch of truth? A voyager? A normal witch? Still a piece? What?
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Old 2011-12-19, 18:54   Link #1223
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She's probably all of those things, as much as those things could be said to ever be different at all.
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Old 2011-12-19, 19:23   Link #1224
orangejuicetang
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But some of those are mutually exclusive though.

If she's a temporary witch, she can't be a full-fledged witch and vice versa. Going by what was said in EP 6, if she's a full-fledged witch, she would no longer be a piece. A Voyager Witch would be on a completely another level compared to a normal witch. and so on.
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Old 2011-12-19, 20:10   Link #1225
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Virgilia and Beatrice and Maria are all pieces, but they're also witches. "Normal witch" is never really defined, and a Voyager Witch is only a witch that maintains her power outside of her home. Erika, as a fictional entity, only exists when she's observed, so she can be both full-fledged and temporary at the same time.

Hell, the only thing that really matters is she's a Detective.
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Old 2011-12-19, 22:22   Link #1226
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Alright so I got around to finishing Ep8 a few hours ago and I'm not really sure what to think about it. The magical showdowns didn't do it for me this time around. I thought it dragged on for too long, to the point of it feeling more of a form of fan service than a climactic finale. I guess i just wished for more scenes in the vein of the Tea party, where things were getting wrapped up.
And what's R07's hate for the truth? I get what he's trying to say but he's way to black and white about it, trick ending anyone?

Either way, I ended up feeling rather indifferent to how it all played out. Which is a shame as there was some great moments to this series and it deserved to go out with a bit more fanfare.

Regarding the fight between the Ushiromiyas vs the goats. Did he really go ahead and insult his readers theories, followed by dodging all the questions that have been asked? Cause now in hindsight it sounds completely absurd.
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Old 2011-12-19, 22:27   Link #1227
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Yea, he totally did. Ryukishi is apparently of a very low opinion of the fanbase, or atleast the portion he's been exposed to.
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Old 2011-12-19, 22:33   Link #1228
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Haha, that's... crazy. Wow.
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Old 2011-12-20, 00:13   Link #1229
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Well, I for one, loved Episode 8. It felt like both a good action climax from a Fantasy point of view, and a nice epilogue from a Mystery point of view, as most of that had been solved from Episode 6/7. Aside from, of course, the major question of "what really happened that day", and I think the overall theme of Episode 8 was that it doesn't really matter, as that's not what is important. I can see how some people would be disappointed, probably even angry at that. But I liked it. Episode 8 was, after all, a game made for Ange, and that's what she needed in order to move onto the future. I even like the whole thing done with the goats. I thought it was clever, and I certainly don't feel insulted.

All that being said, I loved Episode 8... except for the ???, which I still can't really figure out how I feel about. I think the whole amnesia thing is forced and kinda unnecessary, but I'm willing to accept it. However, I don't really get the final scene at all. The whole part where he sees the Rokkenjima residents flashing before his eyes and the whole "I'm home" dialog. What was that all about? One or two ideas popped into my mind, from some kind of dying vision (ugh) to him truly becoming Battler again from seeing the dining hall (meh), but as you see, none of them sit well with me. What is everyone else's take on it? If it's already been discusses, anybody got a particular page number they can direct me to?
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Old 2011-12-20, 00:46   Link #1230
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My interpretation of that scene was something like Battler's memories dying. Or maybe that's not the right word. Battler's ghost?

Yeah, I think that may be a better word. Battler's dead, but his memories are still in Tohya's head, and there was like some type of I forget the term but like desire? Unfulfilled wishes/desires?

By returning to Rokkenjima/an imitation of it, Battler's ghost can finally find peace? Something like that?

At least, that's my interpretation.

Also, to be honest, I didn't even really notice the whole goats thing when I was reading it, I'm assuming this is during the first wave part.
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Old 2011-12-20, 00:46   Link #1231
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Ending credits are playing now..'

Wow. Just wow. I'm completely floored with how the game ended, and how much I liked it ending that way. If someone had told me at the beginning there would be no "hard answer" revealed, I might have lost interest. Yet in this last chapter, even though that never came, the game MADE me not care so much.

I've also never been humbled by a game before. Twice in a row, in fact. I realized I was totally a goat, and even a specific one. (the one who stopped thinking and got particularly chided for it) Never thought game characters would chew me out!

I was rooting for a happy end the whole time, and I have to say the bittersweet ending kept me just on the edge of my seat the whole time. The falling out of the boat scene that looked like credits had me holding my breath the whole time! I was praying that it wouldn't end in a simple tragedy at that point. I do wish she wasn't such the cookie cutter "tragic heroine" though, that's getting very over-used in general, I think... JUST BE HAPPY dammit

Very beautiful way of revealing the final characters during that "in the future" segment, and explaining why it took so many years to come to an end. Put tears in my eyes from that point forward.

On a different note, the anime version had BETTER animate those final witch fights well! I can see it so well in my head - the birth and destruction of whole universes, the endless duels of blades and scythes... heh

@MainCharacter:
As to that final vision, I'm going to believe that the female Hachijo was none other than Beatorice herself, and Battler finally recognizes her after seeing the portrait. After all, she IS a troublesome rich heir to a fortune! Living alone writing games would be a suitable pastime for her.
Who was Featherine, then? Just as the pen name Hachijo was two people, Featherine in the end was the collective will of Battler and Beatrice. She was the one who wrote the end of the tale, right? It was the actions of Battle, Beatrice, and Ange that wrote the end of this tale. And apparently Beato likes cats named Bern :P
You see, candy addictions and a warm snuggly kitty will interrupt games all the time, so two witches messing with their games fits perfectly! Right? Right!

And that, is my truth.
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Old 2011-12-20, 00:55   Link #1232
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Originally Posted by Sajomir View Post
As to that final vision, I'm going to believe that the female Hachijo was none other than Beatorice herself, and Battler finally recognizes her after seeing the portrait. After all, she IS a troublesome rich heir to a fortune! Living alone writing games would be a suitable pastime for her.
Who was Featherine, then? Just as the pen name Hachijo was two people, Featherine in the end was the collective will of Battler and Beatrice. She was the one who wrote the end of the tale, right? It was the actions of Battle, Beatrice, and Ange that wrote the end of this tale. And apparently Beato likes cats named Bern :P
You see, candy addictions and a warm snuggly kitty will interrupt games all the time, so two witches messing with their games fits perfectly! Right? Right!

And that, is my truth.
That's a nice thought, but not one I really agree with myself. I'm in the camp that took the whole "Beatrice drowning" scene a bit more literally, as I think Yasu literally drowned to death at that point.

I also think that Battler being down with her even after she sees him float away is saying that "the person who was Battler Ushiromiya" died with her down there. Both in terms of "his heart" and also more literally, as his brain damage would cause a disconnect between him and that person from then on. So orange's interpretation, while closer to what I would think, would still feel redundant to me. So I wonder if that's what it really was.
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Old 2011-12-20, 01:03   Link #1233
AuraTwilight
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All that being said, I loved Episode 8... except for the ???, which I still can't really figure out how I feel about. I think the whole amnesia thing is forced and kinda unnecessary, but I'm willing to accept it. However, I don't really get the final scene at all. The whole part where he sees the Rokkenjima residents flashing before his eyes and the whole "I'm home" dialog. What was that all about? One or two ideas popped into my mind, from some kind of dying vision (ugh) to him truly becoming Battler again from seeing the dining hall (meh), but as you see, none of them sit well with me. What is everyone else's take on it? If it's already been discusses, anybody got a particular page number they can direct me to?
You know how it's implied that Rika Furude might have split into the happy Rika and Bernkastel, the witch?

Perhaps Toya and Battler are now separate people, and the latter is reunited with his loved ones in the Golden Land, to wait for Ange.

Quote:
As to that final vision, I'm going to believe that the female Hachijo was none other than Beatorice herself, and Battler finally recognizes her after seeing the portrait. After all, she IS a troublesome rich heir to a fortune! Living alone writing games would be a suitable pastime for her.
What about the whole Hachijou family, and how she doesn't seem to age? How did she beat Battler/Toya to the island and suddenly have a card and a house and servants and furniture and maybe even a cat?
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Old 2011-12-20, 01:19   Link #1234
LyricalAura
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What about the whole Hachijou family, and how she doesn't seem to age? How did she beat Battler/Toya to the island and suddenly have a card and a house and servants and furniture and maybe even a cat?
Well, there was that 2-year gap where Yasu had a huge pile of cash and we don't know what she was doing with it.
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Old 2011-12-20, 01:37   Link #1235
orangejuicetang
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Wait, Hachijou is Yasu?

What?
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Old 2011-12-20, 01:42   Link #1236
AuraTwilight
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It's a theory. Some people in the fandom speculate that Yasu lived and became Hachijou Ikuko. I, myself, don't buy it.

She's TOTALLY Asumu imo, lol.
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Old 2011-12-20, 02:15   Link #1237
orangejuicetang
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Wasn't Hachijou a lot older than Battler though?
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Old 2011-12-20, 02:21   Link #1238
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The magical showdowns didn't do it for me this time around. I thought it dragged on for too long, to the point of it feeling more of a form of fan service than a climactic finale.
Agreed. So, so, so, SO agreed. We get it! The power of an author is unlimited! Words can do anything! But the impact goes down when the scale stays at "blowing each other up with universes" for too long!

Quote:
Regarding the fight between the Ushiromiyas vs the goats. Did he really go ahead and insult his readers theories, followed by dodging all the questions that have been asked? Cause now in hindsight it sounds completely absurd.
This one's dicey. Ryukishi07 has nothing but (well-directed) spite for people who take real tragedies and try to make mysteries out of them. Some of the goat scenes are pretty obvious digs at rumor-mongers and media circuses inside the game's universe(s), and aren't meant for the fans at all.

Other goat scenes seem to be digs directed at readers, but the whole setup's so comical that it's more like Beatrice's taunting of Battler. There's a difference between:

"My God, you people are idiots. Sheesh. What a waste."

and

"Hahaha! You're goats! YOU'RE ALL DUMB GOATS! Nyah nyah nyah!"

He's goading the readers and dodging their questions to make them keep trying, not telling them to shut up. If Ryukishi07 had really wanted to put down the readers, he'd wouldn't have bothered writing that 'answer key' in Episode 7. I'm going to hate myself for saying this, but he seems pretty tsundere towards his readers, like a cat that will not let you pet it.

Quote:
You know how it's implied that Rika Furude might have split into the happy Rika and Bernkastel, the witch?
I maintain that, in universe, Hachijou wrote Higurashi or Ange played it. Possibly both. And I think Hachijou didn't appear aged for decades because she passed on the title to her daughter; it would be nicely symmetrical with the on-Rokkenjima events.

---

Did anybody think that Hachijou keeping Battler around was gonna be like Misery, but backwards? "Detective story author sees mysterious Ushiromiya man in wake of disaster, stalks him, hits him with her car, and forces him to co-author detective stories with her."
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Old 2011-12-20, 02:55   Link #1239
unsuspectingvisitor
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It's a theory. Some people in the fandom speculate that Yasu lived and became Hachijou Ikuko. I, myself, don't buy it.

She's TOTALLY Asumu imo, lol.
But Hachijou Ikuko had a flat chest.
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Old 2011-12-20, 03:12   Link #1240
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And just something to point out for the Hachijou-Yasu thing...
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"(....) My age... is a single woman's secret. My heart is that of a girl, but I'm approaching the point where calling myself one would be increasingly absurd. Heheheheh."
It seems like she was just playing around, but to me it sounds a little odd to include that into a first time greeting.

(I'm not really sold on the whole thing either, but it's fun entertaining the idea.)
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