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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-12-19, 21:38   Link #441
itachi-san314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinegundam View Post
85% (of 7 gates) or 75%(of 8 gates) of his max to kill a 20% clone.... That sounds bad on gai's part..
you're making it sound like 6g gai was in an even match with kisame's clone. it was 100% onesided on gai's part. kisame couldn't touch him. also, how does a 7g gai beating kisame sound? sounds good to me

Quote:
I never said bee was a better taijutsu shinobi than gai, however bee is damn good at it couple that with 8 tails chakra; that's a hard fight for gai to say the least.
call it whatever you want, it didn't impress kisame and kisame was never even close to losing that fight with bee
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Old 2011-12-20, 00:04   Link #442
Ricky Controversy
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Re: my 'true shinobi excellence is measured in espionage and political acumen' premise stated here, I'd be curious if anyone had a candidate other than Orochimaru to nominate.
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Old 2011-12-20, 09:49   Link #443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Re: my 'true shinobi excellence is measured in espionage and political acumen' premise stated here, I'd be curious if anyone had a candidate other than Orochimaru to nominate.
I held off on replying to that because, to be frank, I didn't think I could take it into nearly as much detail as you did. That, and I pretty much agree with you that Orochimaru would probably be the best given the system of determining it that you established, so there wasn't much room for discussion on it.

Most people are considering strongest to mean simply that, no deeper meaning required, end of story. I don't really think it really needs to be given more depth than that; whichever shinobi's overall strength (across every category) is the greatest would be considered the best. With the way the series has changed over time, the way the story is now that is probably the most concrete way of determining the strongest. The series has lost any need to dig any deeper than that.

That said, if we were to determine strength another way, by looking at the Naruto world as one where--as you said--shinobi aren't more akin to wizards than anything else, then I perfectly agree with you. At the very least, I'd be hard pressed to find somebody more fitting than Orochimaru (can't think of any off the top of my head, at any rate). It's still early in the morning and I'm still pretty tired so I can't really elaborate more at the moment, but starting a discussion about this would be nice (it helps that the other arguments are getting rather circular, and a topic change would be nice).
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Old 2011-12-20, 09:57   Link #444
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^ Then, regarding this new topic (Rick's), under the assumption that we don't include the Sage of the 6 Paths, I nominate Tobi.
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Old 2011-12-20, 09:58   Link #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
you're making it sound like 6g gai was in an even match with kisame's clone. it was 100% onesided on gai's part. kisame couldn't touch him. also, how does a 7g gai beating kisame sound? sounds good to me


call it whatever you want, it didn't impress kisame and kisame was never even close to losing that fight with bee
"Beating" a 20% clone with near 100% of your max is not a accomplishment.
Furthermore samheda sucked Kasimes's chakra before he fought gai.

Tail beast bomb would kill gai.
Bee practically killed Sasuke.... You are underating him. Do you think ms Sasuke <gai?
Don't let your fan boy make decisions, be objective...... You are showing the same trend that you showed with your argument about pain and Sm Naruto.
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Last edited by Divinegundam; 2011-12-20 at 10:10.
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Old 2011-12-20, 12:49   Link #446
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That said, if we were to determine strength another way, by looking at the Naruto world as one where--as you said--shinobi aren't more akin to wizards than anything else, then I perfectly agree with you. At the very least, I'd be hard pressed to find somebody more fitting than Orochimaru (can't think of any off the top of my head, at any rate). It's still early in the morning and I'm still pretty tired so I can't really elaborate more at the moment, but starting a discussion about this would be nice (it helps that the other arguments are getting rather circular, and a topic change would be nice).
I define strength as the sum of all of one's traits which serve as a means to win a battle in a "right here, right now" situation. If, like Shikamaru, intelligence is your main asset, then I count it as part of your strength. But that does not include pre-preparadeness as one can win against almost anyone with enough prep (think Konan v Madara).
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Old 2011-12-20, 13:43   Link #447
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Originally Posted by Detective-san View Post
^ Then, regarding this new topic (Rick's), under the assumption that we don't include the Sage of the 6 Paths, I nominate Tobi.
Interesting. I'd be curious to see your reasoning, as Tobi occupies the upper tiers for me as well, though I wouldn't rate him as highly as Orochimaru.
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Old 2011-12-20, 15:22   Link #448
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Divinegundam View Post
"Beating" a 20% clone with near 100% of your max is not a accomplishment.
Furthermore samheda sucked Kasimes's chakra before he fought gai.

Tail beast bomb would kill gai.
Bee practically killed Sasuke.... You are underating him. Do you think ms Sasuke <gai?
Don't let your fan boy make decisions, be objective...... You are showing the same trend that you showed with your argument about pain and Sm Naruto.
its clear that your fanboy is making bee more powerful than he is. suigetsu was fending off bee and 8 tails and he's a throwaway character pretty much. and its not like the tailed beast bomb won the fight for bee. also you never credit gai for defending people when he was fighting kisame's clone. it really highlights how you nitpick every fight in your favor yet there are always some variables pertaining to both combatants. and i never said it was an accomplishment, that's EXACTLY my point. it was easy to beat that 20% clone in 6g mode

ms sasuke didn't use susanoo at that time vs bee so yes, that sasuke would be less than gai. with susanoo, sasuke's better than both bee and gai and kisame for that matter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Re: my 'true shinobi excellence is measured in espionage and political acumen' premise stated here, I'd be curious if anyone had a candidate other than Orochimaru to nominate.
I would definitely have him top 5, but I'd consider some others as being better tactical shinobi than orochimaru. namely, tobi and itachi above him. also, the jury's out on kabuto. he certainly is one of the best infiltrators ever. I'll have to wait and see if he's slightly better or slightly worse than orochimaru in that sense

edit: also jiraiya was quite adept at infiltration and interrogation. so that would probably be my top 5

Last edited by james0246; 2011-12-23 at 18:41. Reason: double post...
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Old 2011-12-20, 18:02   Link #449
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
its clear that your fanboy is making bee more powerful than he is. suigetsu was fending off bee and 8 tails and he's a throwaway character pretty much. and its not like the tailed beast bomb won the fight for bee. also you never credit gai for defending people when he was fighting kisame's clone. it really highlights how you nitpick every fight in your favor yet there are always some variables pertaining to both combatants. and i never said it was an accomplishment, that's EXACTLY my point. it was easy to beat that 20% clone in 6g mode

ms sasuke didn't use susanoo at that time vs bee so yes, that sasuke would be less than gai. with susanoo, sasuke's better than both bee and gai and kisame for that matter
I'm actually more a kakashi and naruto fan but I like Gai's character too. I not trying to make gai seem weak. I'm calling a spade a spade with the facts available.

Regardless if he used susanoo or what ever, he was nearly stabed to death and had his chest blown off. By him not using his skills shows his ineptitude at battle.

Kudos to Gai for understanding that playing around with kisame is not sound tactics. However Kisame was not at 100%
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Old 2011-12-20, 19:51   Link #450
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Divinegundam View Post
I not trying to make gai seem weak. I'm calling a spade a spade with the facts available.
thats what im doing too

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Regardless if he used susanoo or what ever, he was nearly stabed to death and had his chest blown off. By him not using his skills shows his ineptitude at battle.
no arguments here. sasuke was clearly weaker than bee at that time.

Quote:
Kudos to Gai for understanding that playing around with kisame is not sound tactics. However Kisame was not at 100%
tactics don't discount power in my book. its not a very intricate tactic anyway. its basically just using your full power from the start.

also, sameheda is like a double edged sword. kisame knew that going into battle. it's his weapon and it's all part of his overall power as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 2011-12-23, 00:05   Link #451
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We've seen Edo Madara, Tobi, the 5 current Kages, all previous Hokages, some other previous Kages, the Sannin, Akatsuki and much more...yet I still say that Sarutobi (the 3rd Hokage) still takes the spot of strongest ninja in his prime.

He was already regarded as the best ninja in his prime but one thing to note is that the guy took on Orochimaru and two Edo-Hokages (one of them the guy who beat Madara before) and he was over 80 years old. Do you have any idea what it is to fight 3 ninjas of the highest rank at such an advanced age? MY granpa is pretty fit for an 84 year old but he still gets very bloody tired if he walks at a faster pace for a bit. And guess what he beat two and took the third one's arms.

I swear, if Sarutobi could have been Edo'ed, he would slaughter more people than Madara and most of the other Edos put together.
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Old 2011-12-23, 13:35   Link #452
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The 4th. End of story.
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Old 2011-12-23, 17:51   Link #453
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id have to say the fourth because he coulod seal the nine tail fox while controlling the boss toad amd doesnt he know how to use space time ninjustsu
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Old 2011-12-24, 06:19   Link #454
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i would also say the 4th
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Old 2011-12-24, 17:28   Link #455
itachi-san314
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The 4th. End of story.
the 4th was on par with A. do you really think A or minato are stronger than:
Edo Madara w rinnegan
Rikudo Sennin
Tobi w rinnegan

also, Sasuke EMS and Naruto KM are better than them. itachi and possibly kabuto w orochi cells as well

edit: I'd put Minato above A but they are close for sure
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Old 2011-12-24, 17:47   Link #456
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
the 4th was on par with A. do you really think A or minato are stronger than:
Edo Madara w rinnegan
Rikudo Sennin
Tobi w rinnegan

also, Sasuke EMS and Naruto KM are better than them. itachi and possibly kabuto w orochi cells as well

edit: I'd put Minato above A but they are close for sure
It's worth noting that Minato and A were evenly matched purely because they could neutralize the incredible speed they both were known for, and we don't know if any of those enemies have speed on the same level as Minato, A and KM Naruto. I wouldn't put Minato above them necessarily, but I don't think it's as simple as saying that Minato simply can't be stronger because he was evenly matched by A.
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Old 2011-12-25, 00:36   Link #457
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It's worth noting that Minato and A were evenly matched purely because they could neutralize the incredible speed they both were known for, and we don't know if any of those enemies have speed on the same level as Minato, A and KM Naruto. I wouldn't put Minato above them necessarily, but I don't think it's as simple as saying that Minato simply can't be stronger because he was evenly matched by A.
well more evidence is the difficult time tobi gave him during naruto's birth. minato was at his prime, but now tobi has rinnegan so he's much improved. yes, minato was defending someone, so all I'm saying is that Tobi was a force comparable to Minato at that time before the upgrades. also, Naruto needs lots of help vs Tobi right now and Naruto has surpassed minato imo. then there is edo madara who is facing A PLUS 4 other kages plus pretty much an army behind them. yes he has muu/kabuto to help but its still an insane group to be fighting. it's above minato's capability imo
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Old 2011-12-25, 00:42   Link #458
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The one who has never lost a fight... the 4th.
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Old 2011-12-25, 10:02   Link #459
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^ He simply didn't live long enough to lose a fight.
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Old 2011-12-25, 21:29   Link #460
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
well more evidence is the difficult time tobi gave him during naruto's birth. minato was at his prime, but now tobi has rinnegan so he's much improved. yes, minato was defending someone, so all I'm saying is that Tobi was a force comparable to Minato at that time before the upgrades. also, Naruto needs lots of help vs Tobi right now and Naruto has surpassed minato imo. then there is edo madara who is facing A PLUS 4 other kages plus pretty much an army behind them. yes he has muu/kabuto to help but its still an insane group to be fighting. it's above minato's capability imo
Yeah, Minato probably isn't on the same level as Tobi or Edo Madara; I have no arguments there. I was just pointing out that we shouldn't put Minato on the same level as A by default, since they're a case of two shinobi who are very evenly matched in their respective skills.
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