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Old 2011-12-20, 22:44   Link #3941
Vena
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Archer can't use Avalon (it's established you need a connection to Saber for that. He doesn't have any). This has been answered by Nasu already. I suppose that Archer could win if he teams up with Bazett as his Master- maybe. As soon as Ea came out, he'll be dead.
I don't really care about the serious!Gil thought anymore, I'm fine with him winning at everything forever. I was just wondering about Avalon because I was under the impression that Shirou could project it even without connections to Saber because of how long he and it had been merged, allowing him to bypass the restriction to Saber, so thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know it was already answered by Nasu. Thanks.
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Old 2011-12-20, 22:54   Link #3942
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I don't really care about the serious!Gil thought anymore, I'm fine with him winning at everything forever. I was just wondering about Avalon because I was under the impression that Shirou could project it even without connections to Saber because of how long he and it had been merged, allowing him to bypass the restriction to Saber, so thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know it was already answered by Nasu. Thanks.
No. He can't, apparently. Since it's a weapon connected to Saber in particular and only to her (bestowed by the fairies or something). It can happen only when she's around and there's a 'connection' (like the contract). Otherwise it's useless, according to him (Nasu was asked why Archer didn't trace it instead of Rho Aias), IIRC.

I suppose there's Fragarach, but we don't see Gil or Shirou or Archer ever using it if they have it stored somewhere (probably they don't have it since it's connected specially like a virus in Bazett's bloodline?).
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Old 2011-12-20, 23:05   Link #3943
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No. He can't, apparently. Since it's a weapon connected to Saber in particular and only to her (bestowed by the fairies or something). It can happen only when she's around and there's a 'connection' (like the contract). Otherwise it's useless, according to him (Nasu was asked why Archer didn't trace it instead of Rho Aias), IIRC.
That's fine, I had always wondered why he'd used Rho Aias if he had Avalon, though I had assumed, much like with Excalibur, that he wouldn't have had the mana to use not that it would have had utterly no effect. Nasu's word is final though, so that's that.

If he had had Avalon, I cannot imagine what would have ever possibly been able to stop Rin/Archer in the 5th Grail War. He'd be invincible to any attack with UBW to spam death from the skies.

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I suppose there's Fragarach, but we don't see Gil or Shirou or Archer ever using it if they have it stored somewhere (probably they don't have it since it's connected specially like a virus in Bazett's bloodline?).
I was under the impression that Fragarach was a divine item from a curse, so it wouldn't be in GoB nor would it be traceable to be inside of UBW. Maybe if Bezett was Archer's master, then Archer would be able to envision the plans and make it but otherwise it would be just as restricted as Ea, Excalibur, or any other divine weapon.
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Old 2011-12-20, 23:23   Link #3944
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That's fine, I had always wondered why he'd used Rho Aias if he had Avalon, though I had assumed, much like with Excalibur, that he wouldn't have had the mana to use not that it would have had utterly no effect. Nasu's word is final though, so that's that.

If he had had Avalon, I cannot imagine what would have ever possibly been able to stop Rin/Archer in the 5th Grail War. He'd be invincible to any attack with UBW to spam death from the skies.
Well, not really...

You can kill Rin. That's why I say the Master is also a factor.

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I was under the impression that Fragarach was a divine item from a curse, so it wouldn't be in GoB nor would it be traceable to be inside of UBW. Maybe if Bezett was Archer's master, then Archer would be able to envision the plans and make it but otherwise it would be just as restricted as Ea, Excalibur, or any other divine weapon.
LOL. Bazett as Master with anyone but freakin' Avenger as Servant is too goddamn hax, that's why the Kotomine backstab needed to happen or there wouldn't be a plot. She hunts magi and dead apostles, so none of the Masters in the fifth war stand a chance (except Kuzuki, I guess, but only during the first fight).

I remember that Rin did a spittake in Ataraxia epilogue when Bazett introduced herself and dragged Shirou out to tell OMG WATCH YOUR MOUTH SHE'LL KILL US ALL!!1! Meanwhile, Bazett and Saber were being bros and insulting Sakura's tea-making skills inside.
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Old 2011-12-20, 23:39   Link #3945
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LOL. Bazett as Master with anyone but freakin' Avenger as Servant is too goddamn hax, that's why the Kotomine backstab needed to happen or there wouldn't be a plot. She hunts magi and dead apostles, so none of the Masters in the fifth war stand a chance (except Kuzuki, I guess, but only during the first fight).
Trained killer vs. a bunch of kids... seems fair. It'd be like replacing Shirou with Kiritsugu. But, if Archer could trace Fragarach by being Bazett's servant... now that would be hax, as I said in the forum thread.
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Old 2011-12-21, 00:05   Link #3946
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Trained killer vs. a bunch of kids... seems fair. It'd be like replacing Shirou with Kiritsugu. But, if Archer could trace Fragarach by being Bazett's servant... now that would be hax, as I said in the forum thread.
She's different than Kiritsugu (who uses technology mostly), Bazett uses runic magic to kill (which under Cuchulainn, she would have trained further), she's a haxxer one (since Kiritsugu can't take down Servants as she can). I recall that a clean punch from her would decapitate someone and can speed up to 80kh/h or so. Yeah, very fair.

Bazett's honorable nature balances it. Sure, she's ruthless as heck when she has an objective, but she's not a dirty player as Kiritsugu can be. Avenger is, so it balances her.

Poor Lancer. He won the Master lottery (hot, Irish, young woman who adooooooores him and can team up with and her wish was about him) and then he was usurped his victory. Guess it can't be helped, being a Lancer and all.

At least she's not overkill as her Prisma Illya version yet.
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Old 2011-12-21, 00:18   Link #3947
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She's different than Kiritsugu (who uses technology mostly), Bazett uses runic magic to kill (which under Cuchulainn, she would have trained further), she's a haxxer one (since Kiritsugu can't take down Servants as she can). I recall that a clean punch from her would decapitate someone and can speed up to 80kh/h or so. Yeah, very fair.
Kiritsugu is more of an assassin, I see Bazett more like an amazonian. It'd be an interesting fight between the two of them, assuming it wasn't a fist fight.

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Poor Lancer. He won the Master lottery (hot, Irish, young woman who adooooooores him and can team up with and her wish was about him) and then he was usurped his victory. Guess it can't be helped, being a Lancer and all.
Can't help but feel bad for Lancer through the whole story. Has the perfect master stolen from him, he does everything against his own will, and ultimately either has to kill himself or gets killed off in an unceremonious way. At least he gets his revenge in UBW-route and goes out like a champ. His runic magic with Bazett would have made them a damn near unstoppable team, maybe even against serious!Gil.

Gae Bolg vs. Ea, what exactly happens there? Gae Bolg is pretty damn fast, can Ea fire off in time?
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Old 2011-12-21, 00:34   Link #3948
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Lancer/Bazett VS Saber/Rin

who wins!
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Old 2011-12-21, 00:35   Link #3949
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Kiritsugu is more of an assassin, I see Bazett more like an amazonian. It'd be an interesting fight between the two of them, assuming it wasn't a fist fight.
Both are magi killers, only that they use different methods (so is Kotomine). What gives Bazett an edge is that she can defeat Servants during special circumstances, while Kiritsugu can only target Masters (although her Illya manga self gets overhax upgraded into being Servant-hunter level -she's compared as Berserker class in sheer strength ).

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Can't help but feel bad for Lancer through the whole story. Has the perfect master stolen from him, he does everything against his own will, and ultimately either has to kill himself or gets killed off in an unceremonious way. At least he gets his revenge in UBW-route and goes out like a champ. His runic magic with Bazett would have made them a damn near unstoppable team, maybe even against serious!Gil.

Gae Bolg vs. Ea, what exactly happens there? Gae Bolg is pretty damn fast, can Ea fire off in time?
His stats are lowered as heck too thanks to Kotomine, he's also given a command to fight everyone without defeating them (poor Lancer).

Ea would win, but Bazett would have Fragarach'ed Gil, I think. Gilgamesh isn't really formally part of the 5th Grail War, anyway?
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Old 2011-12-21, 00:40   Link #3950
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Speaking as one with only secondhand knowledge, just how did Kotomine manage to kill Bazett anyway? I mean, even if she isn't "haxx" to Prisma Illya levels, she's still scary-tough. And where was Lancer while it was happening, anyway?
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Old 2011-12-21, 00:48   Link #3951
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Both are magi killers, only that they use different methods (so is Kotomine). What gives Bazett an edge is that she can defeat Servants during special circumstances, while Kiritsugu can only target Masters (although her Illya manga self gets overhax upgraded into being Servant-hunter level -she's compared as Berserker class in sheer strength ).
She's not bullet proof though, so their fight would be an interesting mind game of cat and mouse. If Kitsurugu can out maneuver and trap her, he'd win, if she can reach him, she'd win.

As for her manga counterpart, it reminds me of the wolverine overpowering that's happened in recently history for the x-men comics. They just don't know when to stop making things too powerful.

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His stats are lowered as heck too thanks to Kotomine, he's also given a command to fight everyone without defeating them (poor Lancer).

Ea would win, but Bazett would have Fragarach'ed Gil, I think. Gilgamesh isn't really formally part of the 5th Grail War, anyway?
Lancer really gets no appreciation for what he had to put up with and was still a decent servant despite all his handicaps. He'd have been a top class Servant with a genuine master and would have probably won the war with Bazett.

So basically it goes like so:
Lancer used Gae Bolg.
Gilgamesh counters with Ea!
Bazett counter-counters with Fragarach! Its super effective!
Gilgamesh fainted.

He's not technically in the war but he does exist in that time, and I'm sure Kotomine could have brought him in to fight off Bazett had he not cut off her arm and such.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Speaking as one with only secondhand knowledge, just how did Kotomine manage to kill Bazett anyway? I mean, even if she isn't "haxx" to Prisma Illya levels, she's still scary-tough. And where was Lancer while it was happening, anyway?
Back stabbed her and cut off her arm. Lancer didn't have time to react and once Kotomine had her arm... well, Lancer couldn't do anything.
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Old 2011-12-21, 00:48   Link #3952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Speaking as one with only secondhand knowledge, just how did Kotomine manage to kill Bazett anyway? I mean, even if she isn't "haxx" to Prisma Illya levels, she's still scary-tough. And where was Lancer while it was happening, anyway?
He was her mentor or something like that, so it would be easy for him to backstab her, like he does everybody else. It's not like he was like YO LET'S HAVE A DUEL.

For people saying Bazett would've helped Lancer beat Gilgamesh, don't forget Kotomine would've been there too.
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Old 2011-12-21, 00:49   Link #3953
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Speaking as one with only secondhand knowledge, just how did Kotomine manage to kill Bazett anyway? I mean, even if she isn't "haxx" to Prisma Illya levels, she's still scary-tough. And where was Lancer while it was happening, anyway?
Bazett's weakness is that she's gullible as heck around people she likes and trusts (she's all serious, ruthless and businesslike, but really really nice and shy underneath who wishes to have friends). Kotomine befriended her years ago (both met and fought together in their missions). She was basically lonely in the world since she decided to leave the village and Kotomine the only friend she made outside, so she trusted him with her life. He invited her into the Holy Grail War he'll moderate.

Lancer was out scouting? Wasn't this happened in the Church and he can't get in, IIRC? Basically, he backsbatted her, removing her arm. Remember if you torn the arm off with the command seals, the magus would feel as if their nervous system hardwires.

In a real fight, Kirei would lose. He wasn't suicidal.

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Lancer/Bazett VS Saber/Rin

who wins!
First fight that they never met before? Bazett/Lancer for sure. The only way Saber/Rin team can win this if Saber gets Avalon (although Rin is still vulnerable if Saber gets Avalon, Bazett would completely overpower her in a battle). I imagine Rin would order Saber to not fight if Bazett introduces herself, though (she gets white as a ghost to even think in confronting her in Hollow Ataraxia epilogue when she shows up in Shirou's house, that was with Saber, Shirou and Sakura in the same house with her and a lone Bazett). Unlike Gae Bolg, luck seems useless against Fragarach.
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Old 2011-12-21, 00:51   Link #3954
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Kotomine survived without his heart though. And he's very strong and has all of his own abilities. I'm not sure if he would lose... but I guess what makes him Kotomine is that he always finds his own way to win.
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Old 2011-12-21, 00:57   Link #3955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
Lancer used Gae Bolg.
Gilgamesh counters with Ea!
Bazett counter-counters with Fragarach! Its super effective!
Gilgamesh fainted.
The funny fact about that is... Gil wouldn't even respond with Ea. Either he would skewer Lancer before the latter would be able to activate Gae Bolg, or Gil would simply avoid Gae Bolg altogether.
Remember that Gil has a ridiculous stats in LCK, so it is extremely likely he will just be unaffected and won't really consider a threat, using GoB spam... which is probably what happened during Fate Route.
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Old 2011-12-21, 00:58   Link #3956
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Kotomine survived without his heart though. And he's very strong and has all of his own abilities. I'm not sure if he would lose... but I guess what makes him Kotomine is that he always finds his own way to win.
Because Angra Mainyu likes him enough to keep him around, but the problem is that AM likes Bazett even more than him. Disadvantage!

Runic magic (what Lancer uses) seems enough to keep him dead in UBW, Bazett happens to be an expert in that too. She's also faster than Kirei when she fights. But she wasn't fighting him. Who would have seen it coming? He was like her only pal, her host and the mediator? Her guard was down.

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The funny fact about that is... Gil wouldn't even respond with Ea. Either he would skewer Lancer before the latter would be able to activate Gae Bolg, or Gil would simply avoid Gae Bolg altogether.

Remember that Gil has a ridiculous stats in LCK, so it is extremely likely he will just be unaffected and won't really consider a threat, using GoB spam... which is probably what happened during Fate Route.
We don't see how that battle went, for one. The injures of Shirou and Saber didn't heal immediately, so it seems they lasted for a while.

Lancer's stats were affected by Kotomine (his stats are higher with Bazett) and a ridiculous command to fight people without defeating them. Lancer also has battle continuation and runic magic to raise the power of his attacks (and use magic). Gil can be cornered (he WAS going to use Ea against freakin' Shirou when he lost his patience). If a mongrel mortal earned that privilege, a fellow demigod could easily earn it.

The moment he does that, the moment he's toast. Luck doesn't affect Fragarach (as we see in how easily it kills Saber in Ataraxia).
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Old 2011-12-21, 01:01   Link #3957
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The funny fact about that is... Gil wouldn't even respond with Ea. Either he would skewer Lancer before the latter would be able to activate Gae Bolg, or Gil would simply avoid Gae Bolg altogether.
Remember that Gil has a ridiculous stats in LCK, so it is extremely likely he will just be unaffected and won't really consider a threat, using GoB spam... which is probably what happened during Fate Route.
I keep forgetting about Gae Bolg's Luck-weakness, and without him being a threat to Gil Bazett's not going to be able to force him to use Ea in order to allow Fragarach to work. Though, I'd imagine with a competent master (and who can also use Rune Magic), GoB might have been able to be held off with their magic long enough to get near to Gil and force him into hand-to-hand combat, at which he sucks.

Or, we just give EMIYA to Bazett, then Gil really can't win. Fragarach would counter EMIYAs only lack of counter to Ea (the only other way would be to find a way to get Saber to be EMIYAs Master, but that would require Caster's Rule Breaker, and now we might as well involve the whole FS/N cast in making nonsensical hax.)
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Old 2011-12-21, 01:09   Link #3958
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Because Angra Mainyu likes him enough to keep him around, but the problem is that AM likes Bazett even more than him. Disadvantage!
That was in HA though wasn't it? So in the Fate route she wouldn't have really formed any bond with him.
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Old 2011-12-21, 01:13   Link #3959
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I keep forgetting about Gae Bolg's Luck-weakness, and without him being a threat to Gil Bazett's not going to be able to force him to use Ea in order to allow Fragarach to work. Though, I'd imagine with a competent master (and who can also use Rune Magic), GoB might have been able to be held off with their magic long enough to get near to Gil and force him into hand-to-hand combat, at which he sucks.
It can still severely injure Gilgamesh because of the cursed wounds (it doesn't just injure, but it curses it, not as much as Diarmuid). Saber was bruised and the only reason why Lancer didn't finish her is because he couldn't (he had been ordered to fight without defeating by Trollomine). Let's not forget Lancer is a cockroach when comes to fights (he can restore himself, he can even continue fighting without a heart, etc), and his agility/speed are superior to Gil's.

Also Gil's luck under Kotomine is A, not EX.

He'll also provoke him (Lancer is a smartass). If Lancer defeated Saber, then Gilgamesh would probably take out Ea against him. The main problem for Lancer isn't GoB or Ea, but Enkidu (he's a demigod). However, Gilgamesh is also weak against magic and what does Lancer specializes? Yeah, magic. There's a lot of circumstantial factors.

Gilgamesh would still win if he was serious, but he hardly ever is.

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That was in HA though wasn't it? So in the Fate route she wouldn't have really formed any bond with him.
I was joking mostly. But if we're talking about a fair confrontation between them, Bazett would still win. The whole "Angra Mainyu is dere for me" is just to rub in. Poor Kirei ;_;
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Old 2011-12-21, 01:20   Link #3960
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The thing is that Fate series portrayed that the difference between 1 rank is enormous: Saber could still fight and recovers slightly despite having B luck.
Therefore, Gil with A rank would receive substantially lowered damage, and I have no idea if his armor is on par with Saber or better.

Also, Agility doesn't exactly mean anything against GoB: the thing is just ridiculous in term of wide range and number of attacks. Gil is nearly the "hard counter" for Lancer.
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