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Old 2011-12-21, 01:22   Link #3961
Thess
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The thing is that Fate series portrayed that the difference between 1 rank is enormous: Saber could still fight and recovers slightly despite having B luck.
Therefore, Gil with A rank would receive substantially lowered damage, and I have no idea if his armor is on par with Saber or better.
No, her luck makes him avoid her heart, but she's still wounded and the wound doesn't heal (she needs days and so to recover, hell Shirou can't heal his with Avalon until Lancer dies). Saber recovers slowly because of her strong magic resistance. The spear is cursed.

Who has E magic resistance? Yeah, Gilgamesh.

He can spam Lancer with the GoB, but Lancer's godly in battle continuation and recovery. It's one of his abilities. The thing he'll be weak against is Enkidu.
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Old 2011-12-21, 01:23   Link #3962
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Therefore, Gil with A rank would receive substantially lowered damage, and I have no idea if his armor is on par with Saber or better.
It's not so much the armor itself you have to look out for, but rather what else he's got in the GoB. Noble Phantasms come in forms other than weapons, and I have no doubt he's got various artifacts and relics with defensive properties through the roof in that thing.

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Also, Agility doesn't exactly mean anything against GoB: the thing is just ridiculous in term of wide range and number of attacks. Gil is nearly the "hard counter" for Lancer.
Goldie is the "hard counter" to pretty much everything.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Saber also recovers slowly because of her strong magic resistance. The spear is cursed.

Who has E magic resistance? Yeah, Gilgamesh.
Again, it's not so much what his personal resistance is, as what he can bring out of the GoB to suit the situation. Something like a mirror that reflects all magic damage would make Magic Resistance kinda pointless, wouldn't it?
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Old 2011-12-21, 01:27   Link #3963
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Again, it's not so much what his personal resistance is, as what he can bring out of the GoB to suit the situation. Something like a mirror that reflects all magic damage would make Magic Resistance kinda pointless, wouldn't it?
That wouldn't work against a cursed wound, though. And this is assuming he takes the battle seriously first. If he had this mirror at his disposal, he would have used it against Shirou's Reality Marble (which is magic). Instead, he jumped and went for Ea when he was pissed off.
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Old 2011-12-21, 01:31   Link #3964
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
That wouldn't work against a cursed wound, though. And this is assuming he takes the battle seriously first.
Only problem with that is the cursed wound lasts only as long as the one who dealt it. The only people we know of that can survive a direct barrage from the GoB is Saber, Shirou (and by extension Archer), and Fate/Zero Berserker. Everyone else would just get blasted into tiny little bits, especially if they managed to score a hit on him. Even considering Goldie's tendency to not go all out, he knows when and how to swat an annoying fly.
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Old 2011-12-21, 01:40   Link #3965
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Only problem with that is the cursed wound lasts only as long as the one who dealt it. The only people we know of that can survive a direct barrage from the GoB is Saber, Shirou (and by extension Archer), and Fate/Zero Berserker. Everyone else would just get blasted into tiny little bits, especially if they managed to score a hit on him. Even excluding Goldie's tendency to not go all out, he knows when and how to swat an annoying fly.
And it would hurt him and piss him off. He gets irrational.

Shirou and Saber died in the Bad Endings (which are also canon), it's all about the circumstances. Obviously, no one can win against a serious Gilgamesh (not Saber, not Shirou), but we're not contemplating that.

Lancer's got two advantages when facing a GoB spam: he has Disengage stats B (allows him to break away from combat plus the bonus effect of "returning battle conditions to what they were at the beginning of the match" and that's C ranked, imagine B) and he has Battle Continuation (originally A, damn Kotomine, Bazett would rectify this). Plus his runic magic (all the original runes, what is Gil weak against), unfortunately we don't know what all of them do. But they are divine runes by Odin himself...

The major peril from the Gate is Enkidu, IMO. Ea he can counter with Bazett's backup, but Enkidu? No.
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Old 2011-12-21, 01:46   Link #3966
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Lancer's got two advantages when facing a GoB spam: he has Disengage stats B (allows him to break away from combat plus the bonus effect of "returning battle conditions to what they were at the beginning of the match" and that's C ranked, imagine B) and he has Battle Continuation.
I'm familiar with the skills, yeah. The problem is that the GoB is a game-breaker in every sense of the word. Look at what at it did to Berserker in UBW route, and in Fate route Caster couldn't even teleport away because of the storm of stabby stab. Battle Continuation doesn't do much if you get drilled with dozens of fatal wounds within seconds of one another. The only way to counter Goldie properly, from what we've seen, is to have a way to effectively attack the GoB, excluding a certain skill-set custom-tailored to deal with Servants. And Saber.

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The major peril from the Gate is Enkidu, IMO. Ea he can counter with Bazett's backup, but Enkidu? No.
Oh no question here.
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Old 2011-12-21, 01:55   Link #3967
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
I'm familiar with the skills, yeah. The problem is that the GoB is a game-breaker in every sense of the word. Look at what at it did to Berserker in UBW route, and in Fate route Caster couldn't even teleport away because of the storm of stabby stab. Battle Continuation doesn't do much if you get drilled with dozens of fatal wounds within seconds of one another. The only way to counter Goldie properly, from what we've seen, is to have a way to effectively attack the GoB, excluding a certain skill-set custom-tailored to deal with Servants. And Saber.
I don't think GoB is game-breaker, powerful, yes, but not Game Breaker (Ea is, absolutely. Just like Nero's Golden Theater).

How I wish we could have seen the damn Lancer fight. Even if he was really dampened by command seal and Kotomine, it would have been interesting.
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Old 2011-12-21, 01:57   Link #3968
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we got trolled
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Old 2011-12-21, 02:03   Link #3969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
I'm familiar with the skills, yeah. The problem is that the GoB is a game-breaker in every sense of the word. Look at what at it did to Berserker in UBW route, and in Fate route Caster couldn't even teleport away because of the storm of stabby stab. Battle Continuation doesn't do much if you get drilled with dozens of fatal wounds within seconds of one another. The only way to counter Goldie properly, from what we've seen, is to have a way to effectively attack the GoB, excluding a certain skill-set custom-tailored to deal with Servants. And Saber.
Enkidu and protecting Ilya is what beat Berserker in FS/N, Gates of Babylon just sealed the deal by breaking through Herc's God Hand. If it wasn't for Enkidu snaring Berserker and him desperately protecting Ilya with his body from the barrage of GoB, he would have snapped Enkidu and gone to town on Gil and Gates. Herc is a monster, he breaks Enkidu with barely any life left in him to try and save Ilya. Imagine what he would have done without having to protect her. If anyone had a chance of actually going to town on Gil, it was probably Herc and probably if he had not been the Berserker class, since then his other Noble Phantasm would probably have been able to stop GoB, and he'd still have had God Hand... but maybe then he wouldn't be able to break Enkidu. Thoughts?

GoB also losses to UBW, and Gil would lose any fight against Archer if he didn't have Ea, because Archer will beat him in hand to hand combat and UBW will block out and even push back GoB.
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Old 2011-12-21, 02:09   Link #3970
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
Enkidu and protecting Ilya is what beat Berserker in FS/N, Gates of Babylon just sealed the deal by breaking through Herc's God Hand. If it wasn't for Enkidu snaring Berserker and him desperately protecting Ilya with his body from the barrage of GoB, he would have snapped Enkidu and gone to town on Gil and Gates. Herc is a monster, he breaks Enkidu with barely any life left in him to try and save Ilya. Imagine what he would have done without having to protect her. If anyone had a chance of actually going to town on Gil, it was probably Herc and probably if he had not been the Berserker class, since then his other Noble Phantasm would probably have been able to stop GoB, and he'd still have had God Hand... but maybe then he wouldn't be able to break Enkidu. Thoughts?
The only problem with that theory is Berserker also benefited from the stat boost of Rank A Mad Enhancement. Without that, his monstrous strength isn't what it was as a Berserker-class, but he does gain the benefit of the Nine Lives Noble Phantasm. Enkidu played a role, yeah. But without the GoB, there's not really a deal to seal is there? That's the entirety of Goldie's power; even Ea and Enkidu have to come through it, and if Goldie couldn't fire the weapons it's just a glorified armory, isn't it? I'd say his victory was owed more to the GoB than Enkidu.

Quote:
GoB also losses to UBW, and Gil would lose any fight against Archer if he didn't have Ea, because Archer will beat him in hand to hand combat and UBW will block out and even push back GoB.
This was never in question.
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Old 2011-12-21, 02:22   Link #3971
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I'm not sure if Archer would beat Gilgamesh. The only reason Shirou did was because Gilgamesh screwed around. But they can only sustain their UBW barrage for a temporary period of time. All Gilgamesh has to do is keep spamming til they become exhausted.
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Old 2011-12-21, 02:31   Link #3972
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Gilgamesh didn't screw around after UBW was summoned. He legitimately was fighting with Shirou and was unable to draw swords from GoB quickly enough.

The problem was that Gil shouldn't have allowed Shirou to use UBW in the first place, and when he did, he should have had Ea ready from the start. In swordplay, however, Gil was clearly losing.
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Old 2011-12-21, 02:33   Link #3973
mAc Chaos
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He wasn't wearing his armor though.
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Old 2011-12-21, 02:38   Link #3974
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
The only problem with that theory is Berserker also benefited from the stat boost of Rank A Mad Enhancement. Without that, his monstrous strength isn't what it was as a Berserker-class, but he does gain the benefit of the Nine Lives Noble Phantasm. Enkidu played a role, yeah. But without the GoB, there's not really a deal to seal is there? That's the entirety of Goldie's power; even Ea and Enkidu have to come through it, and if Goldie couldn't fire the weapons it's just a glorified armory, isn't it? I'd say his victory was owed more to the GoB than Enkidu.
Like I said, I don't know if he can break Enkidu without being the Berserker Class. I don't know if the benefits from the other classes would have helped him overcome Enkidu or if his innate superhuman strength could break Enkidu (I want to say that he may be able to because he breaks the chains when he's almost dead and completely riddled with weapons.). He can be everything but a Caster and an Assassin, he has a lot of possibilities on the table. I'm just working off the fact that Nine Lives could effectively block GoB (though admittedly I don't know the rate of fire on Nine Lives, so it may be slower) which leaves on Ea as a possible treat to Herc and God Hand.

But without Enkidu and protecting Ilya at his back, you're going to have a similar scenario to UBW vs. Berserker if Ea doesn't come into play. Berserker will reach Gilgamesh and he will crush him even if it costs him most of his lives. As for Ea, would that take all of Berserkers lives or just a handful?

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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
This was never in question.
Ahh, I had thought you were building up GoB to be a nigh unbeatable super skill. My mistake.

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I'm not sure if Archer would beat Gilgamesh. The only reason Shirou did was because Gilgamesh screwed around. But they can only sustain their UBW barrage for a temporary period of time. All Gilgamesh has to do is keep spamming til they become exhausted.
(Assuming equally good mana supplies) Gilgamesh, without Ea, is extra-hard countered by EMIYA. There's literally nothing he can do to stop UBW from overpowering GoB and getting himself thoroughly skewered. The events in the UBW route, once UBW is cast, are not him screwing around. It is legitimately serious!Gil getting his ass kicked because he underestimated Shirou, allowed him to cast UBW, and didn't have Ea. Without Ea is he hosed against EMIYA/Shirou.
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Old 2011-12-21, 02:50   Link #3975
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He wasn't wearing his armor though.
Armor won't improve his technique.
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Old 2011-12-21, 03:29   Link #3976
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Guys, guys... what if Gilgamesh (or Nero)* with Bazett as Master join an imaginary Grail War?

*Not necessary the same ones (different copies, y'all).


Which combination of Master/Servant would be have more chances to beat Team Overkill?

Avalon or Plot Armor, not Allowed :P
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Old 2011-12-21, 03:46   Link #3977
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
(Assuming equally good mana supplies) Gilgamesh, without Ea, is extra-hard countered by EMIYA.
Well, I always assumed GoB takes up no mana to use. It's just there. Whereas every time Emiya has to project something he has to use mana.

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Armor won't improve his technique.
Yeah, but it would make it harder for a random lucky swing to lop his arm off before he gets Ea.
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Old 2011-12-21, 03:48   Link #3978
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Guys, guys... what if Gilgamesh (or Nero)* with Bazett as Master join an imaginary Grail War?

*Not necessary the same ones (different copies, y'all).


Which combination of Master/Servant would be have more chances to beat Team Overkill?

Avalon or Plot Armor, not Allowed :P
How logical does this team have to be? Like can I say, for instance:

Master: Someone with A LOT of mana, let's say Terra (Earth) is made a Master because she's pissed off at us for something or other.
FS/N Caster
- Rule Breaker:
EMIYA
Hercules (any class)
Saber
Iskander
True Assassin
etc

Because I'm pretty sure if I can make that team, I win.

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Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
Well, I always assumed GoB takes up no mana to use. It's just there. Whereas every time Emiya has to project something he has to use mana.
GoB has a cost to fire the weapons at the very least, I do not know about just drawing from it but I would imagine even that has a cost. That aside, Gilgamesh was being overwhelmed by a mere human with very low mana to begin with, GoB just hands down losses to UBW in a shoot out before mana even becomes an issue, apparently.
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Old 2011-12-21, 04:21   Link #3979
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Master: Someone with A LOT of mana, let's say Terra (Earth) is made a Master because she's pissed off at us for something or other.
No cheating. Choose one of the Masters in Fate. :P

Caster is a good pick, but would she even be able to use rule breaker that amount of Servants? Or maintain a Berserker...
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Old 2011-12-21, 04:41   Link #3980
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No cheating. Choose one of the Masters in Fate. :P

Caster is a good pick, but would she even be able to use rule breaker that amount of Servants? Or maintain a Berserker...
You never specified. I'll have to think hard on who would be a good master for Caster, especially if she's controlling five or six servants. As for Caster, if she has the mana supply either from a Master or from draining people of their souls or both, I don't think there was an established limit on her abilities to steal and control servants. At the very least we know she can cheat one in, have three under her control at one time, and fuel a Rho Aias. That's a lot. But I'm not too familiar with all these intricate rules to the weapons, so maybe Rule Breaker has some rules that I'm unaware of just from playing the games.

If I'm not allowed to have my super-hacks, just have Caster (FS/N) under Ilya. Hide Ilya. Steal Iskander and EMIYA as Rider and Archer, and I'm pretty sure you're good to go. Ionian equipped with Caliburn? Yes, please. Gil will have to use Ea on Ionian, leaving him open to an attack from UBW. Would be an interesting fight to say the least.

That being said, I've always wanted to see what Hercules could do as another class. His lore isn't quite as old as Gilgamesh but is easily the most renowned of any of the spirits in the game/stories. Wouldn't he have powers rivaling Gil because of this? Or am I overestimated Herc?
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