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View Poll Results: Penguin Drum - Episode 24 (END) Rating
Perfect 10 36 40.91%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 25 28.41%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 14.77%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 4.55%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 3.41%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 3.41%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 1.14%
1 out of 10 : Painful 3 3.41%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-12-24, 14:09   Link #101
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
I've gotta go with Kazu-kun. The penguin drum isn't simply love but purpose as well, and the one Sho gave to Himari isn't the one he received from Kanba -- in fact, I think it's a mistake to treat the apple too literally, as though it's an object being passed around. Shouma had no purpose of his own and had to borrow one from Kanba, which is why their penguin drum is symbolized by a split apple. But with Himari, Shouma didn't share his purpose with her -- he gave her one (himself).
Well, even though I still think the penguindrum is not just "love" but purpose (ie: what you do with love), I can see where Sackett is coming from and I agree with some of his points.

Let's put it clear here. Even though Penguindrum kept referencing Night on the Galactic Railroad, and even name-dropped Miyazawa Kenji himself more than a few times, Kenji's novel and penguindrum are ultimately polar opposites (thematically-wise), and not in a good way.

It's like Guardian Enzo said in his blog: "it appears as if instead of Giovanni and Campanella, we have two Campanellas. Except that one of them lived his life selfishly and took the lives of others, though his fate was the same as the one who lived his life selflessly."

Where Kenji finds the meaning of happiness in selfless sacrifices and acceptance of death (and fate) by reaching out to others and making positive connections with them, Ikuhara, on the other hand, end up siding with Kanba, "vindicating" his obsessive and selfish attend to get what he wants, as misguided and unhealthy as it was.

Ikuhara would argue Kanba had the right to get what he wanted because he had already sacrificed half of his "life" for Sho in the first place, and so Sho should follow suite and help him achieve what he want in the name of "family and community". But since Shouma ended up losing the interpersonal connections that form said community in the first place (his bond with both Ringo and Himari herself) because of this, I think what Ikuhara proposes is beyond misguided.

Ikuhara had said he wanted to put the emphasis on community (ie: family) over romantic love in this series, so I can understand where he's coming from to some extent. It's obvious, though, that he went about it totally the wrong way (as explained in the paragraph above).

I also think that Ikuhara overlooked that fact that one of the aspects that makes romantic love so important is that it marks the beginning of a new community, a new family. I think Ringo and Shouma should have stayed together because they represented such "beginning", and there's no meaning in losing that for the sake of Kanba's selfish obsession.


All that said, I still think the ending was beautiful. Although I can't help thinking that Kenji himself would roll in his tomb if he knew Ikuhara kept name-dropping him constantly during this madly misguided ordeal lol.
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Old 2011-12-24, 14:10   Link #102
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Sackett, that was an excellent post with some interesting thoughts, but when it's all said and done, I guess MPD simply wasn't aiming for what you interpreted it to be aiming for.

A while back Kazu-kun linked to an interview with Ikuhara where he wanted to stress the importance of family, and family bonds, in MPD. In other words, he was much more focused on familial love/connections than on romantic love/connections.


MPD's ending makes sense in that regard, as does the anime as a whole.

It's very clear that Ikuhara was trying to say something about families, because there were so many incredibly messed up families in this story.

Ringo's parents being separated, leading her to long for what she once had in regular family sit-down meals of curry, was by far the mildest of these.


Yuri's father nastily abused her, so much so that it forced Momoka's hand.

Tabuki became unloved by his mother due to his lack of talent.

Natsume's grandfather was horrible to his family, and her father was largely absent (her father also being Kanba's).

Kanba's biological father was absent, and his adoptive one was a terrorist leader.

Himari's parents abandoned her, and her adoptive parents were terrorist leaders.

Shouma's adoptive parents were terrorist leaders.


So as you can see, major family divisions and problems abounded in this anime.

I think that an idea that Ikuhara may have been trying to convey here is that when parents mistreat their children, when they cease to properly love and/or care for their children, sadness and tragedy inevitably occur. I think Ikuhara may be saying that the family is important, and that children feeling loved and wanted is even essential.

Now, while sadness and tragedy inevitably occur, people can still make a positive impact in trying to turn things around. You can love and care for your sister even when your parents let you down. You can start a new family with a beloved partner, and put aside the problems you had with your parents. If you lose a twin brother, that doesn't mean you shouldn't care for and love your younger brother.


In the end, Kanba and Shouma had each other. Their brotherly bond was reconstituted. Their sacrifice was both necessitated by the tragedies arising from family abandonment, but also helped to give Himari a family (and a close friend in Ringo, who is perhaps a sister-like figure to Himari now).

In their final acts, we see both the sad tragedies that can arise from familial abandonment and divisions, but also a hopeful message in how a new family (at least of sorts) can arise out of the ashes, as it did for Himari.

If you view the ending through this lens, I think it makes good sense thematically, and ties in nicely with everything that came before.


Ikuhara himself is not particularly fond of shipping. IIRC, he quipped that he wanted to kill off Tuxedo Kamen to keep him away from Sailor Moon, but Tuxedo Kamen had this habit of continuously coming back. Well, in MPD, he had his chance to kill off the male half of two prominent shippings, and he took it.

But again, this anime was never really about romantic love, but rather about familial love, and the importance of family in general.
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Old 2011-12-24, 15:06   Link #103
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The way I see it is Shouma saved Kanba along with Himari & Ringo. He gave back half the apple that Kanba had given him before so Kanba could save Himari, but this act also saved Kanba himself.

Shouma also would not let Ringo do the fate transfer and took that on himself. Because of this fate transfer Ringo & Himari are happy even if they lost Sho & Kan.

Sho & Kan's existence was erased. In that sense, Kanba didn't kill anyone.

But I think it had to be Sho & Kan who made the sacrifice because of that apple Kanba split with Shouma. It was only Shouma who could return it to Kanba.

But because of what Sho did (and Kanba did in the past). Both Kan & Sho were rewarded with their loved ones happiness & living on together in death.
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Old 2011-12-24, 15:23   Link #104
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This anime just confused me most of the time.. but it was pretty good too.
Final episode was great.
It was about time some thing were finally more or less explained.
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Old 2011-12-24, 16:24   Link #105
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
But because of what Sho did (and Kanba did in the past). Both Kan & Sho were rewarded with their loved ones happiness & living on together in death.
All you said is true plot-wise, but thematically speaking there are some serious issues with this series.

For example, what Ikuhara proposes here is a very nihilistic worldview, made explicit by the fact that Kanba was ultimately not judged for the things he did. It's like Sanetoshi said: there's no inherent sense of right and wrong in this world. Well that's fine, except that it also means a self-sacrifice has no inherent meaning and value either. What gives the self-sacrifice value then is what the ones who are left behind choose to do with the "life" that was granted to them. Shouma had that choice, and he chose to give that "life" back to Kanba. Yuri and Tabuki had that choice too, and they ultimately chose to give that love/life that Momoka granted them to one another.

This is pretty much in line with Kenji's novel. Giovanni is left behind to make sense of his friend's sacrifice on his own. He had a choice, and he chose to uphold that love that was given to him by reaching out to other people....

But what about Ringo and Himari? They were robbed of that choice, and all the character development that comes with it, because they have no memories. It's kind of cop-out really. The sacrifice loses meaning because of this too.

I don't think this was Ikuhara's intention. But it is a flaw. One of many really.
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Old 2011-12-24, 16:49   Link #106
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I am certainly not saying the series is without flaws. I think the biggest flaw for me is how the issues of terrorism were played out. I think Ikuhara started with some interesting ideas about terrorism (what causes them to take these actions, children living with parents of terrorist) but never explored them to their fullest potential.

Hence I really was not happy with the Kanba as a terrorist story line. Do I think Kanba got off easily, well yes! But then I guess Himari asked Shouma to save Kanba and he literally did. Come to think of it when Kanba said "Shouma I found true light" I actually feel that was Kanba's way of thanking Shouma. It was in a sense more of Shouma's sacrifice then Kanba (since we know Kanba would have always given his life for Himari). But Shouma was only able to make this sacrifice because of what Kanba gave him in the first place. And I do appreciate the full circle of that.

I don't think the ending is perfect (although it is my favorite ending of the year) but I can't say I am not satisfied.


As for Himari, Ringo and everyone forgetting them well I do understand your POV. But I think this was the only way to truly transfer fates in this case: where Kanba's negative actions are gone (Momoka did not have the same negative actions) but also giving back a a happy life for Himari & Ringo (they are friends, Himari has a family, goes to school, etc).


Penguindrum does take a lot from Night on the Galactic Railroad but it's not the same story. The death of Campanella and Giovanni's acceptance of this is way less convoluted to say the least. Anyways I don't think Penguindrum was about the acceptance of death as it was in Miyazawa's story. If it was Himari would be the one to die in my opinion Kanba & Shouma would have to accept this.

I think Ikuhara was more taking the idea of dying or doing something for someone else out of love & selflessness. Both Kanba and Shouma did these things.
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Old 2011-12-24, 16:55   Link #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
All you said is true plot-wise, but thematically speaking there are some serious issues with this series.

For example, what Ikuhara proposes here is a very nihilistic worldview, made explicit by the fact that Kanba was ultimately not judged for the things he did.
I disagree with you. Kanba did pay a price, a very high price at that. His life, and almost every trace of his existence, has been wiped out. He not only dies, virtually nothing survives him.

That's punishment enough, isn't it?


I have to very strongly disagree with how you're interpreting this ending, Kazu-kun. I'm surprised that you don't seem to see eye-to-eye with me at all on the ending, as much of what I wrote there was informed by you. What problems do you see with what I wrote in my interpretation on the themes of this anime?


Quote:
It's like Sanetoshi said: there's no inherent sense of right and wrong in this world.
Sanetoshi was proven wrong. There's inherent right and wrong in this world, in part because there's right and wrong in sacrificial love itself. It was that love that ultimately undid him and his plans.


This ending is not as flawed as you or Sackett are arguing it is. It is simply saying something differently than what some expected it to say.
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Old 2011-12-24, 17:08   Link #108
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I'm just here to ask your opinion people:

are Kanba and Shoma dead//are now non-visible beings?? I mean, a lot of people are saying that they got reborn (someone even has edited the Mawaru wiki writing that they got reincarnated) because they're saying almost the same things the children from the first episode are saying, but the penguins going with them...or is not really clear?
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Old 2011-12-24, 17:10   Link #109
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Ikuhara, on the other hand, end up siding with Kanba, "vindicating" his obsessive and selfish attend to get what he wants, as misguided and unhealthy as it was.
I don't think Ikuhara ever sided with Kanba, but he was trying to make a point. Something we saw throughout the story were people who had received some form of emotional abuse from their parents (or the adults who were raising them), and were constantly nurtured by desires, obsessions and goals of those adults. This is pretty much symbolised be it by the child broiler or by the boxes we saw Kanba and Shōma in.

The key to be able to break away from the child broiler or the boxes, as we saw, was love (whether it served merely as emotional comfort, as a purpose or some other things). Shōma was saved by Kanba, who in turned was saved by Himari who in turned was saved by Shōma (and thereby the name of the series - the penguindrum that goes round). Other than them, you also have Tabuki and Yuri who were saved through Momoka's actions.

But here's the thing, whilst love is nice and all, it also had a not-so-nice impact when it came down to people trying to protect what they held dear, or to recover it. We saw Yuri and Tabuki doing dubious things to try to revive Momoka, and you had Kanba doing the things he did to protect Himari. They were all trying to protect or save what they treasured, even if they had to have the world burn. After going through tough times that made them lose sight of their own value and then finally being able to find that value and interest in life after it was given back to them through the actions of some other person, I think it was understandable (though not necessarily excusable) they took the actions we saw in the show.

To make this simpler, I don't think Ikuhara sided with Kanba, or Tabuki or Yuri, but he simply showed what would people who have been either marginalised, or abused do to protect what is precious to them.
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Old 2011-12-24, 17:23   Link #110
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Lastpenguin View Post
I'm just here to ask your opinion people:

are Kanba and Shoma dead//are now non-visible beings?? I mean, a lot of people are saying that they got reborn (someone even has edited the Mawaru wiki writing that they got reincarnated) because they're saying almost the same things the children from the first episode are saying, but the penguins going with them...or is not really clear?

No I am almost 100% positive they are dead. Basically they are taking the same journey as Campanella to True Heaven..except this time Giovanni will be with him for the whole journey.

Of course Shouma & Kanba are only Giovanni and Campanella in the sense they died for love and they have the same hair color, definitely not in personality. But it works.
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Old 2011-12-24, 17:33   Link #111
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I disagree with you. Kanba did pay a price, a very high price at that. His life, and almost every trace of his existence, has been wiped out. He not only dies, virtually nothing survives him. That's punishment enough, isn't it?
And who say anything about punishment? What bothers me is the lack of self-reflection. He said he finally found true light, which isn't exactly true, since he was gifted by Shouma with light, but let's put that aside. My point is, ok, he found light, and now what? Now that he has light, does he finally realize how fucked up he has been and all the shit he has done? Does he reflect on this? No, no at all. Rather, he proceeds to uses his light to do what he wanted to all along, to save Himari, or rather, to die for Himari. Which isn't even a punishment, since it was what he wanted to do to begin with, though that's besides the point.

I think the sacrifice is cool. I think the lack of self-reflection and guilt from his part isn't cool at all. And it was needed, because love alone can not redeem you unless you realize how fucked up you have been and accept that redemption. This is shown with Yuri and Tabuki, which found redemption only when they finally realized how fucked up they have been, even though they had Momoka's love since a long time ago.

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What problems do you see with what I wrote in my interpretation on the themes of this anime?
No problem at all. In fact I think I agree with pretty much everything you said there. I just think the way it was portrayed wasn't all that well thought out, and the themes suffered for it.

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Sanetoshi was proven wrong. There's inherent right and wrong in this world, in part because there's right and wrong in sacrificial love itself. It was that love that ultimately undid him and his plans.
But the problem is that this was portrayed through a pretty cheap gimmick. Ikuhara shows us how happy post-sacrifice Ringo and Himari are, but the catch is that they don't have memories. It's a magical solution. After all, would they still be happy if they knew what Shouma and Kanba did? The answer to that is what validates the sacrifice, what gives it meaning. Yet, we don't have that answer. We only have magic tricks. And Ikuhara is trying sell us the idea that self-sacrifice is inherently good using that magic trick.
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Old 2011-12-24, 17:37   Link #112
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No I am almost 100% positive they are dead. Basically they are taking the same journey as Campanella to True Heaven..except this time Giovanni will be with him for the whole journey.

Of course Shouma & Kanba are only Giovanni and Campanella in the sense they died for love and they have the same hair color, definitely not in personality. But it works.
Thank you a lot
I actually, even if it's sadder, prefer the theory that they're dead, it makes their sacrifice more powerful and the relationship between the brothers stronger

thank you for the answer!
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Old 2011-12-24, 17:46   Link #113
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
But the problem is that this was portrayed through a pretty cheap gimmick. Ikuhara shows us how happy post-sacrifice Ringo and Himari are, but the catch is that they don't have memories. It's a magical solution. After all, would they still be happy if they knew what Shouma and Kanba did? The answer to that is what validate the sacrifice, what gives it meaning. Yet, we don't have that answer. We only have magic tricks.
But keep in mind that on Night on the Galactic Railroad...
Spoiler:


But again I don't think Penguindrum is a story about accepting death. It's only exploring the act of choosing love over everything else. And in that case I don't agree with you that the sacrifice is meaningless because Ringo & Himari don't remember. Does that suddenly invalidate the love Kanba and Shouma had for them? Erasing themselves from their loved ones memories is also a sacrifice after all.
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Old 2011-12-24, 17:57   Link #114
Kazu-kun
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And in that case I don't agree with you that the sacrifice is meaningless because Ringo & Himari don't remember. Does that suddenly invalidate the love Kanba and Shouma had for them?
I didn't say that. What I'm saying is, the fact that he promotes the idea of sacrificial love being inherently right by using a plot gimmick like lack of memories cheapens his case IMO.
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Old 2011-12-24, 18:09   Link #115
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I didn't say that. What I'm saying is, the fact that he promotes the idea of sacrificial love being inherently right by using a plot gimmick like lack of memories cheapens his case IMO.
I don't see how Ringo & Himari remembering or not remembering validates or invalidates sacrifice frankly *shrugs*

No Ringo & Himari don't have to live with the loss but I think that is a separate issue from what Kan & Sho did.
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Old 2011-12-24, 18:13   Link #116
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I don't see how Ringo & Himari remembering or not remembering validates or invalidates sacrifice frankly *shrugs*.
Don't sweat it. We're just talking about different things. I'm not talking about the "sacrifice" itself, but rather about its moral value (or lack thereof).
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Old 2011-12-24, 18:17   Link #117
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post

I think the sacrifice is cool. I think the lack of self-reflection and guilt from his part isn't cool at all.
Ok, now I see what you're saying. Yes, Kanba (and the narrative as a whole) probably would have benefited from a moment of Kanba saying "I was right to want to save Himari, but I've been going about this the wrong way all along. I can not sacrifice others in order to save Himari. I must make my own sacrifice, as I did when I gave half the Penguin Drum to Shouma".

Yes, Kanba could have used an Ebenezer Scrooge-esque moment of deep self-reflection, to use a familiar reference for this time of year.

This is a fair criticism on your part, as it leaves the themes of the story a bit murkier than perhaps they should be.


Quote:

And it was needed, because love alone can not redeem you unless you realize how fucked up you have been and accept that redemption. This is shown with Yuri and Tabuki, which found redemption only when they finally realized how fucked up they have been, even though they had Momoka's love since a long time ago.
Right. Very good points.


Quote:
No problem at all. I fact I think in agree with pretty much everything you said there. I just think the way it was portrayed wasn't all that well thought out, and the themes suffered for it.
Yeah, you're right, the execution could have been better. I'm glad we're not as far apart here as I had first thought.


Quote:
But the problem is that this was portrayed through a pretty cheap gimmick. Ikuhara shows us how happy post-sacrifice Ringo and Himari are, but the catch is that they don't have memories. It's a magical solution. After all, would they still be happy if they knew what Shouma and Kanba did? The answer to that is what validates the sacrifice, what gives it meaning. Yet, we don't have that answer. We only have magic tricks. And Ikuhara is trying sell us the idea that self-sacrifice is inherently good using that cheap magic trick.
You're right. It is a magical solution. And I know that was something you were hoping/expecting that the anime would avoid.

I'm not sure how I feel about this aspect yet. I do see where you're coming from on it, though.
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Old 2011-12-24, 18:23   Link #118
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Yeah, you're right, the execution could have been better. I'm glad we're not as far apart here as I had first thought.
I will be totally honest with you. I liked the series, and I thought the ending was beautiful and it almost made me cry. Quite frankly, I'm mostly nitpicking with all these criticisms I've been posting .

So yeah, even if the execution could have been better, it was still enough to make me care, and that's enough. Maybe even a little more than enough.
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Old 2011-12-24, 18:59   Link #119
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the fact that he promotes the idea of sacrificial love being inherently right
Again, I don't think Ikuhara did that. Notice that, whilst Sanetoshi may have said that was the right thing to do, other characters like Himari, Shōma, Ringo and Momoka disagreed with him, and their actions showed that much.

As for self-reflection, personally, I don't think it was needed. Kanba didn't seem to have the slightest regret about doing what he did in order to save Himari. He never really tried to do the moral thing, but he simply focused on protecting what he cared about.

In a way, I think that's a great moral teaching through a negative example. People who have been shunned, or who have had to suffer will not necessarily feel the need to care about the world, when they themselves feel the world never cared about them in the first place. That's why always sharing the fruit of fate is an important thing, because that way people won't feel compelled to take actions like Kanba's whenever they want to protect what's important to them.
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Old 2011-12-24, 19:19   Link #120
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Again, I don't think Ikuhara did that. Notice that, whilst Sanetoshi may have said that was the right thing to do, other characters like Himari, Shōma, Ringo and Momoka disagreed with him, and their actions showed that much.
I think you misunderstood, since I don't disagree with this but it doesn't affect the point I was trying to make.

Either way, I don't have the time to rehash this conversation right now. You know, it's Xmas and all. I may post something else later.
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