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Old 2011-12-21, 04:53   Link #3981
Thess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
You never specified. I'll have to think hard on who would be a good master for Caster, especially if she's controlling five or six servants. As for Caster, if she has the mana supply either from a Master or from draining people of their souls or both, I don't think there was an established limit on her abilities to steal and control servants. At the very least we know she can cheat one in, have three under her control at one time, and fuel a Rho Aias. That's a lot. But I'm not too familiar with all these intricate rules to the weapons, so maybe Rule Breaker has some rules that I'm unaware of just from playing the games.

If I'm not allowed to have my super-hacks, just have Caster (FS/N) under Ilya. Hide Ilya. Steal Iskander and EMIYA as Rider and Archer, and I'm pretty sure you're good to go. Ionian equipped with Caliburn? Yes, please. Gil will have to use Ea on Ionian, leaving him open to an attack from UBW. Would be an interesting fight to say the least.

That being said, I've always wanted to see what Hercules could do as another class. His lore isn't quite as old as Gilgamesh but is easily the most renowned of any of the spirits in the game/stories. Wouldn't he have powers rivaling Gil because of this? Or am I overestimated Herc?
Illya, without Sakura working as back-up Grail, would collapse immediately after five Servants are killed. If Illya's not the Grail, I doubt she can maintain all those Servants (it's one or the other).

Iskandar being around is the worst situation, because Gilgamesh would go serious and probably murder Caster first to release his WORTHY ENEMY of that woman's control. He can even hold him with Enkidu for a while, as he releases him (and I can't see Iskandar getting along with Medea at all either, so he would be grateful with a fellow king from releasing him from the witch's control. Since she used Rule Breaker and probably destroyed his real Master? Even worse). One Ea shot destabilizes any Reality Marble (because of the anti world stuff), not only that but if he has backup from Bazett's Fragarach, he doesn't need to focus on the battle (it would kill off any other Servant who would try to defend Caster with trumpcards like UBW... It's not like they would pay attention to Bazett with Gil's spamming blades and shooting ea beams around).

Gil is the strongest of the bunch (that we know in FSN Servants, now Nero and her Golden Theater is such a BS Hax that could easily beat down any NP ever, unless, of course she got one of her timely headaches), but he hardly takes stuff seriously (in Ataraxia and against Iskander we see glimpses of this). In Ataraxia, we also see why he's Chaotic Good.
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Old 2011-12-21, 09:04   Link #3982
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I've been wondering lately... What did Gilgamesh do between Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night? Are supposed to assume he spent his time drink wine and eating orphans? 10 years is a pretty long time, it's hard to believe he remained idle for so long.
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Old 2011-12-21, 11:15   Link #3983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I've been wondering lately... What did Gilgamesh do between Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night? Are supposed to assume he spent his time drink wine and eating orphans? 10 years is a pretty long time, it's hard to believe he remained idle for so long.
Gilgamesh basically tried all "pleasure" the world could offer, and deemed it to be rotten to the core. That and repleneshing himself with kids souls etc.
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Old 2011-12-21, 12:20   Link #3984
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post

Back stabbed her and cut off her arm. Lancer didn't have time to react and once Kotomine had her arm... well, Lancer couldn't do anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
He was her mentor or something like that, so it would be easy for him to backstab her, like he does everybody else. It's not like he was like YO LET'S HAVE A DUEL.

For people saying Bazett would've helped Lancer beat Gilgamesh, don't forget Kotomine would've been there too.
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Bazett's weakness is that she's gullible as heck around people she likes and trusts (she's all serious, ruthless and businesslike, but really really nice and shy underneath who wishes to have friends). Kotomine befriended her years ago (both met and fought together in their missions). She was basically lonely in the world since she decided to leave the village and Kotomine the only friend she made outside, so she trusted him with her life. He invited her into the Holy Grail War he'll moderate.

Lancer was out scouting? Wasn't this happened in the Church and he can't get in, IIRC? Basically, he backsbatted her, removing her arm. Remember if you torn the arm off with the command seals, the magus would feel as if their nervous system hardwires.

In a real fight, Kirei would lose. He wasn't suicidal.


Thanks, all of you! So basically it's a case of, even Fragarach is useless against a sneak attack, and once her arm was gone, she was basically in shock from not only the physical damage but the magic-circuit backlash and all she could do was die (except in HA).
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Old 2011-12-21, 12:39   Link #3985
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Illya, without Sakura working as back-up Grail, would collapse immediately after five Servants are killed. If Illya's not the Grail, I doubt she can maintain all those Servants (it's one or the other).
I'm sure there's a way to get this to work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Iskandar being around is the worst situation, because Gilgamesh would go serious and probably murder Caster first to release his WORTHY ENEMY of that woman's control. He can even hold him with Enkidu for a while, as he releases him (and I can't see Iskandar getting along with Medea at all either, so he would be grateful with a fellow king from releasing him from the witch's control. Since she used Rule Breaker and probably destroyed his real Master? Even worse). One Ea shot destabilizes any Reality Marble (because of the anti world stuff), not only that but if he has backup from Bazett's Fragarach, he doesn't need to focus on the battle (it would kill off any other Servant who would try to defend Caster with trumpcards like UBW... It's not like they would pay attention to Bazett with Gil's spamming blades and shooting ea beams around).
You don't need to kill the former master to Rule Break, so there's no need for that. Let's just say Medea buys the servants off of there former masters or something, so that there's no bad blood.

As for Ea, it cannot be spammed in quick sequence from what I understand, it does have some charge time to be able to release Enuma Elish, doesn't it? So the idea was basically, have it be forced on Ionian to destabilize it, leaving Gilgamesh open to be overwhelmed by EMIYA's UBW which would not be affected by Fragaranch (he's not going to be using his strongest attack, unless the definition of strongest attack is very strange for EMIYA since he doesn't have a regular NP) nor would it be destabilized since he's not casting the actual marble but using it to spam weapons. My thought process is that, if Ea can be distracted for just long enough, then EMIYA will have the opportunity to overwhelm Gil with UBW vs. GoB, and get close enough to overwhelm him in melee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Gil is the strongest of the bunch (that we know in FSN Servants, now Nero and her Golden Theater is such a BS Hax that could easily beat down any NP ever, unless, of course she got one of her timely headaches), but he hardly takes stuff seriously (in Ataraxia and against Iskander we see glimpses of this). In Ataraxia, we also see why he's Chaotic Good.
I'm just curious about how the power levels work with him and Herc. I know that Gilgamesh has the oldest legend but Herc is, probably and by today's standards, the most renowned hero in any mythos. He seems underpowered.
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Old 2011-12-21, 13:43   Link #3986
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Thanks, all of you! So basically it's a case of, even Fragarach is useless against a sneak attack, and once her arm was gone, she was basically in shock from not only the physical damage but the magic-circuit backlash and all she could do was die (except in HA).
Yeah. Bazett is usually on her guard up, considering her job. The only exception was Kotomine (and Lancer) because he was her only friend and ally (plus he invited her to damn Holy Grail War). He probably figured out it'll be boring if she finished it in the second day.
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Old 2011-12-21, 17:45   Link #3987
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Gilgamesh basically tried all "pleasure" the world could offer, and deemed it to be rotten to the core. That and repleneshing himself with kids souls etc.
Ah, that's right. I guess that must have kept him busy for quite a while. You know, it sounds like it would make one hell of a spin-off series. Gilgamesh and his wingman Kotomine traveling the world and trying out every kind of pleasurable activities. I'd watch it.
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Old 2011-12-21, 17:50   Link #3988
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Ah, that's right. I guess that must have kept him busy for quite a while. You know, it sounds like it would make one hell of a spin-off series. Gilgamesh and his wingman Kotomine traveling the world and trying out every kind of pleasurable activities. I'd watch it.
It should be called "Gilgamesh and Kotomine go to jail".
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Old 2011-12-21, 18:22   Link #3989
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Kirei & Gil in Harold & Kumar style adventures would be pretty damn hilarious. XD
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Old 2011-12-21, 18:26   Link #3990
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One of these days they really should make the route that leads to Hollow Ataraxia, whether as a light novel or something, just to see what was going on...
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Old 2011-12-21, 20:25   Link #3991
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
I'm going to ask in here instead of the episode thread for F/Z, where the discussion on Gilgamesh started and then went to me asking about Gil vs. FS/N Archer, so that I talk more openly and ask a better worded question.

To summarize, the question revolves around whether or not Archer would be a natural counter to serious!Gil. I was told that Archer cannot copy Ea, so I'm fine with that, and that rules out Archer's suicide method that he could have used against Saber by tracing Excalibur and suicide-exploding with it. But, now I'm left wondering if Archer can or cannot use Avalon. In the game he uses Rho Aias as his shield, so I am unsure if he can or cannot use Avalon or if it would just have cost him too much mana in his fight with Lancer to be effective. I guess this will basically be a question of which Shirou turns into EMIYA, because only one of the three routes has Shirou lose Avalon, and in all other routes he should be able to perfectly project it because its been bound to him for so long, or that is my understanding at least. Even if he doesn't have Avalon, I was also under the impression that because of how long Shirou and it were merged, that Shirou could trace it perfectly just that it would cost a large amount of mana.

TLDR: Can Archer use Avalon?

If he can... isn't he sort of hax with a proper mage fueling him?
Archer is as much of a counter to Serious Gil as anyone is, really. That just happens not to be very much....

Even Saber with Avalon would likely lose if Gil was truly taking her seriously, and certainly if he knew she possessed it.

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Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
I'm not sure if Archer would beat Gilgamesh. The only reason Shirou did was because Gilgamesh screwed around. But they can only sustain their UBW barrage for a temporary period of time. All Gilgamesh has to do is keep spamming til they become exhausted.
Yes, but Archer is much stronger than Shirou. Even at only 10% or so of his true power, he was still equal to or better than him.
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Old 2011-12-21, 20:58   Link #3992
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Even Saber with Avalon would likely lose if Gil was truly taking her seriously, and certainly if he knew she possessed it.
It's my opinion that the reason Gilgamesh ultimately lost to Saber was because she was trying to kill him whereas he wasn't trying to kill her.
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Old 2011-12-23, 03:14   Link #3993
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Archer is as much of a counter to Serious Gil as anyone is, really. That just happens not to be very much....

Even Saber with Avalon would likely lose if Gil was truly taking her seriously, and certainly if he knew she possessed it.



Yes, but Archer is much stronger than Shirou. Even at only 10% or so of his true power, he was still equal to or better than him.
If he's that much stronger as far as UBW is concerned, why wouldn't Archer stand a chance against Gilgamesh?
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Old 2011-12-23, 11:35   Link #3994
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Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
If he's that much stronger as far as UBW is concerned, why wouldn't Archer stand a chance against Gilgamesh?
Because, while he can counter and overpower Gates of Babylon and Enkidu would do next to nothing against him, he has nothing strong enough to stop Ea. Rho Aias might (but I heavily doubt it) be able to deflect it since in HF the four-petal deflected Excalibur (but thats an attack on a completely different level from Enuma Elish), but otherwise he has nothing to use to survive a blast from Ea if serious!Gil uses it off the bat.

If Gil doesn't use it off the bat and allows Archer to overpower him with UBW or to cast UBW in its full, then he'd probably lose much the same was that he lost to Shirou. But that's not serious!Gil. The Fifth Grail was is really mucked up though and the routes have varying power levels to your servants because of all the servant/master switcharoos going on. Rider is pathetic in Fate/UBW, Lancer is handicapped through every single route, Archer doesn't use UBW for some baffling reason in Fate route or just gives up on his goals in HF, Shirou keeps Saber from being good in half of the encounters, Assassin isn't even a real Servant, and on and on.

If you take the servants at their peaks, though, you'd have probably had a lot of strong contenders and a very interesting war.
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Old 2011-12-23, 12:41   Link #3995
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If you take the servants at their peaks, though, you'd have probably had a lot of strong contenders and a very interesting war.
Is that even possible in the game? Half the Masters in the game aren't even legitimate magi.
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Old 2011-12-23, 13:31   Link #3996
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Is that even possible in the game? Half the Masters in the game aren't even legitimate magi.
That's true, but you still have at least four and maybe you could argue that since Caster is a Magi, then she's a valid summoner. But I was more specifically thinking of the following groups:

Bazett and Lancer
Rin and Archer
Ilya and Berserker
Sakura and Rider
(??)Caster's Original Master and Caster + Assassin

Shirou is technically a magi, albeit a weak one and he can't bring out Saber's true potential...
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Old 2011-12-24, 10:30   Link #3997
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I once read an fanfic where Shirou summoned Archer instead of Saber and they were going to use double UBW or something like that.
Pretty crazy idea (throwing aside Archer's desire to kill Shirou).
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Old 2011-12-24, 19:39   Link #3998
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Kiritsugu summoning Archer (EMIYA) sounds like it would have an even large potential for an unstoppable duo of badassery though.
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Old 2011-12-24, 20:30   Link #3999
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
I'm just curious about how the power levels work with him and Herc. I know that Gilgamesh has the oldest legend but Herc is, probably and by today's standards, the most renowned hero in any mythos. He seems underpowered.
The mythological Heracles is probably much stronger than any servant in the 5th war too, with myth Gilgamesh probably making a distant second place.
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Old 2011-12-24, 23:56   Link #4000
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Now let's get real, guys. If Gilgamesh had taken the war seriously, it would be over in a day. Archer can try all he wants, but he'll never able to stand a chance against a real serious Gil. Unless he's a Counter Guardian and that's not even him, but Alaya's will...

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Is that even possible in the game? Half the Masters in the game aren't even legitimate magi.
Zero has as legitimate magi such as Kiritsugu, Kayneth and Tokiomi.
FSN has Illya, Bazett, Rin, Zouken, and the original Master of Caster (someone from the Clock Tower I think).

Kotomine's on both.

Guess you can combine them in an AU game: Kiritsugu or Illya, Kayneth, Zouken, Tokiomi or Rin, Kotomine, Bazett and Original Master of Caster.

Waver, Shirou, Sakura, Uryuu, Kuzuki, Shinji, Kariya, etc don't quite qualify because they are either terrible/n00b magus, muggle or half/badly-trained (some with great potential like Sakura wasn't given the push Rin got).
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Last edited by Thess; 2011-12-25 at 00:09.
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