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Old 2004-12-13, 10:49   Link #21
Animizzle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brassmonkey
personally. i think neji wouldn't be able to learn it. the 4th took like 3 years to create and master it.. neji isn't any smarter than he is. neji's just built differently..
How is he "built differently"? He's a shinobi right? he uses chakra right? he can use Ninjutsu right? do the math. It's just a matter of TIME
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Old 2004-12-13, 11:48   Link #22
MysticNinjaJay
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Interesting thread. A few key points here.....

- Yondaime took three years to invent the jutsu wed don't know how long it took Jiraiya to learn the jutsu

- Naruto hasn't mastered the jutsu at its standard level. He needs a Kage Bunshin to create a full functioning Rasengan

- It doesn't seem to take much chakra to do this jutsu. Jiraiya can do it effortlessly and Naruto can practice it over and over again all do vs. Chidori which can even blow its master Kakashi out after 4 shots.

- The secret to mastering Rasengan is not chakra power its all about control, hence the steps. Neji's expertise is chakra control. He could likely do the jutsu one handed after being told the steps, he's a much quicker learn than Naruto and has experience in the field of chakra control.

Kakashi said Jiraiya and the 4th were the only people capable of doing the jutsu which sounds absurd but if thats true then it must be because its an advanced technique the 4th only showed Jiraiya how to do in its entireity. Tsunade has both expert chakra control and incredible stamina. It shouldn't be to hard for her if Jiraiya can do it. I think at best its a hard jutsu to master as knowing how to do it and doing it right are two very different things. Neji probably could not pick it up in a second but then again Sakura climbed a tree on her first try because she had such excellent control. It took Naruto and Sasuke hours to do something so seemingly simple for a ninja. I think Neji would have to practice it a bit and get the feel but nothing we know of should keep him from mastering such a move in less than a week. He's good at chakra control, Naruto's bad at it and had to "cheat". Something like summoning Gamabunta would be much harder for him because he may not have the capacity.
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Old 2004-12-13, 14:24   Link #23
ryno2410
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Maybe if he knew kage bunshin then he could learn it faster than Naruto. I don't think Neji would have the stamina to do the trial and error that Naruto did in order to learn it. Then again, seeing as how he came up with Kaiten and 64 hands by himself, I wouldn't be surprised if he could figure it out (which won't happen of course since kishimoto wouldn't let him; it's Naruto's move)
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Old 2004-12-13, 15:09   Link #24
historyX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShurikenJay
Interesting thread. A few key points here.....

- Yondaime took three years to invent the jutsu wed don't know how long it took Jiraiya to learn the jutsu
ah .. a major point I missed ..

It seems that the "who knows which jutsu" is all about "the way of the ninja". Like Jiraiya said "ninja never shows off his jutsu" to Naruto. That might be the reason why so few ninjas know the rasengan... 4th invented it but died young and teached it only to Jiraiya who left and lives alone. Knowing a special jutsu that suprises your enemy is very important.

After reading posts here I'd say Neji is able to learn it, and maybe even quite fast if he is told the method. Fast 'cause he is smart, and has byakugan

blah .. I like reading what ppl think about these things, but as soon as I start thinking something myself it gets all blury. I do believe that there are many weird things in naruto, simply because there is one man writing it and thousand fans analyzing it. All things don't connect.
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Old 2004-12-13, 15:18   Link #25
Srin Tuar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShurikenJay
- It doesn't seem to take much chakra to do this jutsu. Jiraiya can do it effortlessly and Naruto can practice it over and over again all do vs. Chidori which can even blow its master Kakashi out after 4 shots.
The reason naruto can do it so many times is because of his literally bottomless chakura reserve. He has 100's of times more chakura than neji.

And it is about mass quantities of chakura:Jiraiya said as much. (Also, think about it:thats exactly the kind of jutsu's that Jiraiya is trying to teach Naruto) It uses so much in fact it burns your hands.

If it was about precise control naruto could never do it, but medical ninja's would find it easy. Wouldnt make any sense at all. The only type of control it requires is turbulent spinning and then simply the brute force to contain the chakura in a ball shaped area.

And it clearly requires far more chakura than the Chidori, at least 10 times as much. (you can tell be the amount of damage they do, rasengan does much more). Kakashi simply doesnt have enough chakura to use rasengan. (notice that he cannot summon boss monsters like the sannin can either, for the exact same reason:not enough chakura to pull it off) Maybe if kakashi had enough chakura to form the chidori 10 times he could form maybe one rasengan.

Summary: its not a finesse jutsu: its all about brute force and mass quantities.
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Old 2004-12-13, 15:44   Link #26
Reticent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Srin Tuar
Kakashi simply doesnt have enough chakura to use rasengan. (notice that he cannot summon boss monsters like the sannin can either, for the exact same reason:not enough chakura to pull it off) Maybe if kakashi had enough chakura to form the chidori 10 times he could form maybe one rasengan.
Well, I'm not sure we KNOW Kakashi can't do a "boss" summon. I can't in an offhand fashion think of a fight we've seen Kakashi in where a huge summons would really be appropriate to the situation.

So maybe Kakashi could muster up the chakra for a rasengan or two-- it's just pointlessly wasteful for him to bother though as it's too similar to chidori in aplication (close range trump card).

Come to think of it, Neji is already loaded with close range trumps himself. Maybe it'd be a waste of chakra for him to use as well.
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Old 2004-12-13, 15:59   Link #27
Shrimpusmaximus
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Perhaps the reason why is more fundamental than all of the talk about stamina and the like. Neji might be a master of internal chakra control and its precise expulsion but the chakra of the nine tails is alive. Naruto can manipulate it externally to a degree that is so impossible to the other characters that they exclaim quite often, "is this really human chakra". Naruto has the demon foxes chakra, which behaves a more controllable manner when externally projected.

So the reasons why naruto and not neji, at least not without a heck of alot more tim, can master the rasengan. is
1. Stamina: He can train and train and harm himself training basically compressing the time needed by sheer orneryness
2. Unlimited chakra: Wow this helps, the rasengan prolly takes less chakra than chidori as the chakra from chidori is a constant emmission of energy into the environment, hence its abilty to strike through multiple objects/targets, but still it can't be insignificant given the damage it does
3. Determination and cunning: NAruto find the backdoor into this technique, learning a way for himself to execute it. That is the difficulty of the abilty. It has no way to be taught you have to figure it out on your own.
4. Healing: Well yeah, this is really just an adjunct to stamina
5. Amazing external chakra control: Everyone else in the series embeds their chakra in an element or transforms it into some such when they manipulate it externally. Otherwise it is just an emmission, a la kaiten or even the gentle fist. Naruto can directly manipualte his external chakra cause well its alive.

Anyhoo thats my theory on how Mr. Supremely unskilled grabbed the rasengan in under two weeks

Last edited by Shrimpusmaximus; 2004-12-13 at 22:05.
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Old 2004-12-13, 16:27   Link #28
Animizzle
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Firstly, just to be sure shrimpus, remove that spoiler. The new rule does not allow the use of spoiler tags at all... And since this is not a manga thread. You could be in trouble, even tho your trying to be "vague" not trying to be bossy, just warning you.

Secondly, you basically repeated everything other people already said in this thread but about the point of determination...How would Neji not be determined? He wants to be strong just as bad as Naruto doesn't he?

Personally I think Neji, being way more experienced in controlling chakra, would find out the trick behind the Rasengan way faster. Hence he doesn't need special "determination" to find out the trick.

Last, what exactly is "alive chakra" ? Naruto having the Kyubi living inside him only provides him with chakra actually taking a shape, when the Kyubi lends him chakra. Between Naruto's normal chakra and Neji's chakra, there is no difference at all.
I don't know what your point is about this "alive chakra" anyway, but I found it rather amusing
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Old 2004-12-13, 16:34   Link #29
matrix_nicolas
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Kakashi do have "boss" summons. It's just... well... not gigantic like the sannins. Those dogs of his are actual summons. Is there a gigantic dog out there? maybe. We'll find out through time.

Kakashi is known as the copy ninja, so chances are, he already know how to do ransengan. Why he didn't use it? That's a critical question. There must be some requirement, like a massive amount of chakra more than chidori.

Just how many times can Kakashi use chidori anyway? He invented it, and knowing using it too many times would kill you.

As with jittsu, anybody can learn any type of jittsu with time. The only jittsu that cannot be learn are bloodline ability. Sharringan, Byrukosomething, bones harder than steel, frozen mirrors, etc.

Remember, Snakeman wants to learn all jittsu, and with is immortal ability, he can learn all of them, and if he had Sassuke body, with sharingan, he'll learn it quicker.

So, BOT... Can Neji learn it? Yes. How long? longer than a sannin. Y? Sannin are practically hokage and Neji is no where near hokage status.
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Old 2004-12-13, 16:55   Link #30
project myu
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Does anyone else think that Chidori and Rasengan are overrated? For the amount of work and requirements you need to meet to learn these moves (for example, Sasuke had to achieve Lee's unweighted speed and Rasengan supposedly takes so much chakra and the ability to control it that almost no one can learn it), they sure are ineffective.

For example, the Chidori. Did the Chidori even kill anyone besides Haku who purposely sacrificed himself to it? Sasuke couldn't even get enough momentum to kill Gaara and barely injured him at all the two times he used it.

And then the Rasengan.. It messed up Kabuto but it still didn't kill him even though it was a direct hit. He even scored a direct hit on Aoi and all it did was make him spin around, Team Rocket style, and fall into the river. It also has to be one of the slower techniques.

Even when Kakashi threw them both into water towers and you could see the comparison in damage of the two moves, it seemed weak. The Chidori made a pinhole and the Rasengan only did damage to the back of the tower.

For two supposedly uber moves (Kakashi's only original move and a technique that the 4th Hokage created), they're pretty weak.
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Old 2004-12-13, 17:03   Link #31
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Well the point of Chidori and Rasengan isn't to smash water towers but rather to kill human beings and Chidori at least is pretty darn good at doing that. I'm sure Haku wouldn't agree with you that it's weak.
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Old 2004-12-13, 17:08   Link #32
matrix_nicolas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by project myu
Does anyone else think that Chidori and Rasengan are overrated? For the amount of work and requirements you need to meet to learn these moves (for example, Sasuke had to achieve Lee's unweighted speed and Rasengan supposedly takes so much chakra and the ability to control it that almost no one can learn it), they sure are ineffective.

For example, the Chidori. Did the Chidori even kill anyone besides Haku who purposely sacrificed himself to it? Sasuke couldn't even get enough momentum to kill Gaara and barely injured him at all the two times he used it.

And then the Rasengan.. It messed up Kabuto but it still didn't kill him even though it was a direct hit. He even scored a direct hit on Aoi and all it did was make him spin around, Team Rocket style, and fall into the river. It also has to be one of the slower techniques.

Even when Kakashi threw them both into water towers and you could see the comparison in damage of the two moves, it seemed weak. The Chidori made a pinhole and the Rasengan only did damage to the back of the tower.

For two supposedly uber moves (Kakashi's only original move and a technique that the 4th Hokage created), they're pretty weak.
Chidori does kill, but only during the war time.

Do you really think a sannin would kill a nobody just cause that person is obnoxious?

If Kabuto didn't use his medical skills to protect himself, he himself said he would been dead. And even after that, he didn't expect rasengan power was that strong that he's still immobilize injured. Besides, do you really think a gennin can defeat a genius jounin? The level of raw power between them is too distant. It would be like fighting Kakashi.

Last edited by matrix_nicolas; 2004-12-13 at 17:21.
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Old 2004-12-13, 17:37   Link #33
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The anime seriously tones down the violence of the manga. In the manga it is a lot more clear just how devastating rasengan and chidori are.
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Old 2004-12-13, 20:03   Link #34
Shrimpusmaximus
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Yeah the anime does kinda, but I say that its destructive impact has no bearing on the real question about Neji. Still as a nerd I can't resist responding.

HAve you ever seen a picture of the exit wound a Full Metal Jacket round fired from an assualt rifle leaves on a person? Well Its massive. The spin of the bullet in mid air means that when it hits you there is a bullet sized hole in your front, but as it travels through you your higher density causes it to spin spall and spiral, so when it exits its like your back explodes. Think of the rasengan as a chakra bullet. You don't survive it.

On a naruto note, the aforementioned victim of the rasengan is a regenerator and even that wasn't enough to prevent incapacitation.

And animizzle, thanks for the warning, though I am going to chance it any way. I hope that the mods use good judgement as I am ttrying to find the appropriate way to discuss things that are kinda hard without spoiling, without spoiling. I don't find a thread I want to post on very often, I mostly read, so I sort of see myself as a willing sacrifice if I messed up and fell into the black, an objject lesson, or a scout if you prefer.
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Old 2004-12-13, 20:17   Link #35
MysticNinjaJay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Srin Tuar
The reason naruto can do it so many times is because of his literally bottomless chakura reserve. He has 100's of times more chakura than neji.

And it is about mass quantities of chakura:Jiraiya said as much. (Also, think about it:thats exactly the kind of jutsu's that Jiraiya is trying to teach Naruto) It uses so much in fact it burns your hands.

If it was about precise control naruto could never do it, but medical ninja's would find it easy. Wouldnt make any sense at all. The only type of control it requires is turbulent spinning and then simply the brute force to contain the chakura in a ball shaped area.

And it clearly requires far more chakura than the Chidori, at least 10 times as much. (you can tell be the amount of damage they do, rasengan does much more). Kakashi simply doesnt have enough chakura to use rasengan. (notice that he cannot summon boss monsters like the sannin can either, for the exact same reason:not enough chakura to pull it off) Maybe if kakashi had enough chakura to form the chidori 10 times he could form maybe one rasengan.

Summary: its not a finesse jutsu: its all about brute force and mass quantities.
Naruto certianly has alot of chakra to give but mass sums? I think not. With Kyuubi ofcourse he does but he doesn't use Kyuubi a whole lot and we never see him use it with Rasengan. Jiraiya tels him there are jutsu he can learn with that beast of a chakra reserve Kyuubi gives him, yet on his own Naruto merely has above average chakra for a ninja.

If you look at it that way Rasengan is the very definition of a finesse jutsu. WHat was so hard was not getting enough chakra during practice it was control ....you must have control. Thats why Naruto still can't do a one handed Rasengan like Jiraiya which is the proper way to do it. Chidori is about brute force. Kakashi can only do it 4 times and Sasuke only twice. Naruto while practcing has no trouble doing this jutsu all day yet burns himself out in a Kage Bunshin free for all.

It defintely sin't taxing his chakra on the same level an expert jutsu should. The power is immense in the end. The hcakra to do it is minimal at best. Probably equal to doing 20 Kage Bunshins. Naruto has immense stamina and incredible potential for chakra capacity, which is why he is so hyperactive. But I don't think he is leaps in bounds over Neji in the field. Neji could easily do Rasengan if all it takes is chakra control he's an expert. But it does take precision so he may find it difficul to do it on Jiraiya's level as fast as it took Naruto to do it the Kage bunshin way.
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Old 2004-12-13, 20:27   Link #36
Sienged Leaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animizzle
So the only
It's not a question wheteter Neji can learn it as fast as Naruto, he probably could't. It's the question if Neji could learn it at all. And there is no reason to think he couldn't
btw Sienged Leaf,

Performing the rasengan doesn't take need of being able to Clone.
So once again it's all about time, if he learns to master the rasengan as Jirayia he doesn't need a clone at all.

nothing hints towards the fact that Neji is unable to learn Rasengan.
Hummm. Ok but almost every things hints towards it takeing longer.... the one thing neji is good at comes natural.
IS it possible i guess but i still dont think he has enogh chakra pluss the only thing i can say is all the rest of my arguments lean towards we just dont know
Now is he going to learn it no.
Is it possible, well anything is possible, but it would take time that neji isnt going to devote towards it , and training no one is going to give him, And thats if there isnt a hidden link that connects Naruto With the 4th that makes them unique at this. (yes i know perverted Senin did it but he on a differnt lvl thin neji)

So at this time neji couldnt do it he would need a lot of special training
Why would he want it anyway, it would just waste his chakra
And yes i concied, if u are asking is it ever possible with any givin amount of time and training could neji do it .........i......Yes i belive he would ,but i dont know that

For whom it may concern: The secret to throughing a baseball is control,but control wont get you a 90 mile an hour pitch and yes the power is no secret
Jay"Jiraiya tels him there are jutsu he can learn with that beast of a chakra reserve Kyuubi gives him, yet on his own Naruto merely has above average chakra for a ninja. " Do u even watch naruto, I dont know if 9tails leaking chakra gives him his amazing stamina but it was sealed when they were finnishing the second exame and he fought all night holding clones...thats not a little above average...

Last edited by Sienged Leaf; 2004-12-13 at 20:46.
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Old 2004-12-13, 21:04   Link #37
Vong
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You guys give Neji too little credit. Perfect chakra control is perfect chakra control.

And not enough chakra? Haha. Rasengan uses much less than something like Chidori because it's about control more than it is about pure power [but power does help as well]. I bet the chakra is comparable to the amount expelled during Kaiten... just in a smaller ball.

Neji can probably do Rasengan out of his forehead if he wanted to... he's the only Genin so far that has taught himself A-level secret jutsu without teaching. So if someone taught him Rasengan... I'm sure it wouldn't take him long to learn it.
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Old 2004-12-13, 22:19   Link #38
Shrimpusmaximus
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Since my main reason got edited out for stepping over the spoiler line, thaks to whichever mod didn't ban me, I am going to restate the center of my argument for naruto, as opposed to Nejis abilty to learn the rasengan. THe chakra of the nine tails is highly mutable in its nature and, damn, well this is very hard to do without spoiling.

Hey all of you that have read the manga, remeber when naruto in that last fight he did the thing with chakra. You know the really cool thing that involved...coolness and beatings. Well that cool thing also allowed him to do that thing with the rasengan. Go look at chapter 232 pages 12-13 to see what I mean. See how the chakra is allowing something that is weird and not normal, well not is a shonen sense cause thats really normal, but a naruto personal normal.

Anyway that is proof that the nine tail chakra makes the rasengan easier. I posit that in addition to the list of reasons that the various people have given that the weirdo chakra that naruto has is a major, possibly even defining reason for why he is able to do the rasengan at all. Now I knwo that people will say that there is nothing linking naruto chakra to nine tails chakra but the two are fusing so I say that the traits of each might leak.

So neji might be able to learn as people have pointed out he has a genius for innovating, but his stellar chakra control might just do nothing for the rasengan as it is external manipulation, which he shows no talent for. The hakkeshou kaiten just pushes chakra out of his sytem, then he spins. Gentle fist just pushes it out, albeit in a very small area. So I say, the big N has more of a chance than most but still frankly null as compare to the big N, wait, which one should be big N and which one should be little n.... I love them both so....
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Old 2004-12-13, 22:24   Link #39
MysticNinjaJay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vong
You guys give Neji too little credit. Perfect chakra control is perfect chakra control.

And not enough chakra? Haha. Rasengan uses much less than something like Chidori because it's about control more than it is about pure power [but power does help as well]. I bet the chakra is comparable to the amount expelled during Kaiten... just in a smaller ball.

Neji can probably do Rasengan out of his forehead if he wanted to... he's the only Genin so far that has taught himself A-level secret jutsu without teaching. So if someone taught him Rasengan... I'm sure it wouldn't take him long to learn it.
Yes I agree. Chidori on the other hand would be a bit more difficult for Neji. Chidori requires both a high speed body for the body activation ability (heightened flesh) that Kakashi says is neccessary for the jutsu and you must use the bulk of your chakra in one shot. Thats why Naruto could not do Chidori. Since Sasuke can only do the jutsu twice before his chakra is spent it takes an incredible amount of chakra to do such a jutsu, nearly half of his reserves a piece. Kakashi uses 1/4 of his chakra per Chidori. Altough Jiraiya and Naruto certainly have large chakra pools Naruto is still just a kid and I don't think he has much more capacity than Sasuke and Neji, certainly more but now by leaps and bounds.
Rasengan is definitely a jutsu that requires a minimal amount of energy with precise control that becomes a devastating jutsu when complete. If it weren't for the fact that Chidori utilizes sharingan to make it a complete jutsu I'd say that Rasengan was the superior jutsu as you can do it over and over again.
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Old 2004-12-13, 22:29   Link #40
the-1
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i didn't read the other posts

i think he could.

i mean look at jiraiya, he doesn't have nine-tails, and he learned it, and to my understanding he was a dumbass when he was a kid. neji is a genius right now, so given time and a teacher he could probably learn it too.
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