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Old 2011-12-07, 14:23   Link #1421
careph
 
 
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It should not be forgotten that Ga-Rei Zero (GRZ) managed to create a unique mood even though it was based on the light-hearted manga. I don't think it would be impossible to maintain that style in an anime adaption of the manga.

However, I see a bigger problem with the anime's main selling point - the troubled relationship between Kagura and Yomi leading to tragedy - being repeated ad nauseam in the manga. I don't think even an experienced animation team could maintain GRZ's tension over a longer period of time without desensitizing or boring the audience.

Following up on that idea, it seems that Yomi was pretty popular in the anime. I think her death in GRZ helped to popularize her character even further. If you, however, bring her back to life in an anime like the manga did, you seriously weaken the impact of her death, and thus her popularity. If you do not bring her back, you lose one of the anime's most attractive elements and alienate her fans. Thus Yomi is best remembered as the victim of a tragedy, as somebody who should remain dead - cruel as that may be.

Another issue is the mediocre conception and poor execution of the manga. GRZ could take a lot of liberties since the events preceding the manga were only hinted at. If the animation team had to use the manga as a foundation, they would be much more limited in their range of action. A weak foundation will always destabilize a building, no matter how skilled the architects are in designing it.

Also - given that the information provided by DragoZERO is correct and the manga was canceled - it is improbable that a financial flop will even be considered as a worthy candidate for animation.

I'm with miroku2192 when I say that I'd love to see some sort of continuation to GRZ, a sequel if you will, but one that does not necessarily follow the manga. In order to maintain the unique tone of the anime, it would be impossible to bring Yomi back to life. The world of GRZ is one of merciless cruelty and realism, and does not mix well with Shounen traditions. People die left and right, and they do not return. Without Yomi however, a continuation of GRZ would not be the same - she was the crux and the soul of the whole project, as a protagonist as well as an antagonist. Consequently, I don't think I could envision a continuation to GRZ of any sort.

In my opinion, the only realistic option has already been expressed by brocko: Animating the untold story of the 4th division and their connection to the team of the SDCD (Yomi and co.) and the butterfly boy. It would solve all the problems outlined above: the anime was moderately successful and could itself serve as a sound foundation for another project; it also leaves enough room for the animation team to be creative in the production of the 'prequel to the prequel'. The unique mood of GRZ could be maintained. Yomi would still (logically) be alive and bring her popularity and fanbase with her.

If not as a whole series, then I think it could at least be realised as an OVA which would bring further benefits: high quality and unlimited gore. The brevity of the format would help to strengthen the action and emotional impact of the OVA, even though the final result will already be known to a majority of the viewers. An OVA could be used to plug plot holes and sew up loose ends and serve as a delicious dessert to a rich main course.

Last edited by careph; 2011-12-09 at 10:32.
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Old 2011-12-07, 17:09   Link #1422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brocko View Post
They should do a prequel of the prequel

Ga Rei -4th Division-

4th Divison squad needs more love. So many characters that were never utilised beyond that starting episode
That wouldn't be such a bad idea. Maybe make it about Kagura's parents or something.

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Originally Posted by careph View Post
It should not be forgotten that Ga-Rei Zero (GRZ) managed to create a unique mood even though it was based on the light-hearted manga. I don't think it would be impossible to maintain that style in an anime adaption of the manga.

However, I see a bigger problem with the anime's main selling point - the troubled relationship between Kagura and Yomi leading to tragedy - being repeated ad nauseam in the manga. I don't think even an experienced animation team could maintain GRZ's tension over a longer period of time without desensitizing or boring the audience.

Following up on that idea, it seems that Yomi was pretty popular in the anime. I think her death in GRZ helped to popularize her character even further. If you, however, bring her back to life in an anime like the manga did, you seriously weaken the impact of her death, and thus her popularity. If you do not bring her back, you lose one of the anime's most attractive elements and alienate her fans. Thus Yomi is best remembered as the victim of a tragedy, as somebody who should remain dead - cruel as that may be.
I think the popularity of Yomi was what forced the turn of events in the final arc of the manga - where it went sour. The anime killed the manga, haha.

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If not as a whole series, then I think it could at least be realised as an OVA which would bring further benefits: high quality and unlimited gore. The brevity of the format would help to strengthen the action and emotional impact of the OVA, even though the final result will already be known to a majority of the viewers. An OVA could be used to plug plot holes and sow up loose ends and serve as a delicious dessert to a rich main course.
As nice as that would be... there are a lot of other series out there that could get nice adaptations and even prequels.
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Old 2011-12-08, 05:05   Link #1423
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
I think the popularity of Yomi was what forced the turn of events in the final arc of the manga - where it went sour. The anime killed the manga, haha.
Agreed. In the first of arc of the manga, Yomi was just a one-dimensional memory of Kagura that manifested itself as an equally shallow villain. Yomi was depicted as an element of Kagura's mind that needed to be gotten over with, eliminated and forgotten.
The anime fleshed out Yomi's character and imbued her with remarkable depth and complexity. In the end, the manga's author lacked the competence to handle the anime Yomi in a satisfying way. Ironically, the spirit that he's cited ignored his commands.

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As nice as that would be... there are a lot of other series out there that could get nice adaptations and even prequels.
Yeah, but none of them have Yomi in them. That's a disqualification by default
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Old 2011-12-08, 22:27   Link #1424
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I think Ga-Rei itself is worth an adaptation, abeit one that's heavily modified. There's enough in it to make the grimdark anime that many of us would like to see (a very good example would be the hunt for Kagura and Yomi in the last arc), once the lulz factors are trimmed out and appropriate parts of the story modified. Seigawa's problem is that he is capable of a good piece of work but he lack the discipline to resist from indulging himself with lousy ideas meant just for the lulz effect (the fact that he had originally intended to make the female lead of Tokyo ESP use her powers via flatulence strongly illustrates this point. Thank heavens his editors kept him firmly in line this time). This is imho what weakened Ga-Rei.

And I feel that should there be a Ga-Rei anime, the focus should fall on Kagura and Kensuke, with proper development on both. Yomi should remain as a strong factor for Kagura's development but otherwise she should be a supporting character and no more. To continue placing her in the centre of the stage would only kill the anime, just like how keeping Kira as the main character derailed GSD. If a Ga-Rei adaptation has to rely on Yomi for success, then it clearly means that the series itself is a failure, as this will prove that it will not incapable of keeping its audience by its own virtues (if any) and has to rely on just one popular character to survive. And in the end even the fans will get tired of seeing Yomi hog the limelight all the time, leaving only the hardcore "Yomi♥" otakus to their enjoyment. This is what I don't hope to see.
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Old 2011-12-09, 09:14   Link #1425
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Whoa... whoa... whoa... there was some sweet service in that manga and no one should be deprived of it!

Seriously though, they shouldn't change a thing except for the ending. I found it to be a very good series that had it's light and dark moments. So long as AIC does it again and not JC, haha.
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Old 2011-12-10, 15:50   Link #1426
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I can't follow your line of argumentation when you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
And I feel that should there be a Ga-Rei anime, the focus should fall on Kagura and Kensuke, with proper development on both. Yomi should remain as a strong factor for Kagura's development but otherwise she should be a supporting character and no more.
You cannot take make Yomi a supporting character without changing the manga fundamentally:

1) Yomi's relationship with Kagura: Please do not forget that Yomi is not a Max Demian, a Greek daemon whose only mission is to lead the protagonist toward self-actualization, a mere stepping stone for human development, one of Wittgenstein's ladders that you throw away after you've climbed them.
To Kagura, Yomi will always be a human of flesh and blood (or a spirit made of whatever ), and the main focus of attention, with Kensuke coming in as a second.
In the depiction of Kagura's inner state at the climax of the Juugondou arc, you can see her forever running away - smiling and laughing outwardly - but nonetheless running away. At some point she realises that there is somebody running alongside her, and that's Kensuke. He has difficulty keeping up with her, but that doesn't matter, since to him there's only Kagura (as the eye of Satori had revealed). The reverse however is not true: To Kagura, that spot is already reserved for Yomi. Kensuke plays an increasingly important part in her life, but he'll never take Yomi's place.
If you wish to have Yomi taking a supporting role you have to either

- start the new anime where the manga ended, i.e. where all major conflicts involving Yomi are resolved, freeing up space for Kagura to tackle other issues. I don't think that would work very well for a grimdark scenario, it wouldn't be an adaptation either.

- or change Kagura completely, since the entirety of her character is built around the near-symbiotic relationship with Yomi (which I cannot deny resembles an Emil Sinclair - Max Demian connection, but reaches further).

2) Yomi's battle prowess: This point is of less depth but of no little significance. Kensuke starts out as a rookie, Yomi is a combat prodigy. There is no way he could steal her spotlight in this - for an action-oriented series - important section.
Again, in order to force Yomi into a peripheral position you would have to

- make Kensuke a lot stronger (and the whole rest of the world for that matter)

- or make Yomi weaker.

All of the above would have serious repercussions for what we know as Ga-Rei and may change the series beyond recognition.

In conclusion, I can imagine no scenario that still retains the basic integrity and logic of the original in which Yomi is a side character.

I would appreciate if you could enlighten me on a possible realisation of your concept, or point out the flaws in my reasoning.

Last edited by careph; 2011-12-10 at 16:00.
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Old 2011-12-10, 20:33   Link #1427
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You should take the manga talk to the manga thread.
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Old 2011-12-11, 06:06   Link #1428
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
You should take the manga talk to the manga thread.
So far as I am concerned, I am discussing the possibility of continuing the anime. The manga is just the medium to be adapted, but not the topic itself.
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Old 2011-12-12, 11:45   Link #1429
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Originally Posted by careph View Post
I can't follow your line of argumentation when you say:
No worries there. I tend to make people bang their heads on the wall with my comments (and secretly enjoy watching them do so at the same time )

Quote:
You cannot take make Yomi a supporting character without changing the manga fundamentally:
First I would like to quote the first sentence of my previous post, with an added emphasis:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
I think Ga-Rei itself is worth an adaptation, abeit one that's heavily modified.
Please note that I understand that it is impossible to make a Ga-Rei anime without taking Zero and its influence into consideration, not without serious tweaks to parts of the story. That includes changing how Yomi is presented in the manga, which could even include removing her spectre in the first arc and have instead her shadow cast over Kagura throughout the whole story, culminating with her resurrection in the final arcs. If the manga can bend backwards to accomodate Yomi's second resurrection, I don't see why a Ga-Rei anime can't make equally major changes to improve its story.

Quote:
1) Yomi's relationship with Kagura: Please do not forget that Yomi is not a Max Demian, a Greek daemon whose only mission is to lead the protagonist toward self-actualization, a mere stepping stone for human development, one of Wittgenstein's ladders that you throw away after you've climbed them.
To Kagura, Yomi will always be a human of flesh and blood (or a spirit made of whatever ), and the main focus of attention, with Kensuke coming in as a second.

In the depiction of Kagura's inner state at the climax of the Juugondou arc, you can see her forever running away - smiling and laughing outwardly - but nonetheless running away. At some point she realises that there is somebody running alongside her, and that's Kensuke. He has difficulty keeping up with her, but that doesn't matter, since to him there's only Kagura (as the eye of Satori had revealed). The reverse however is not true: To Kagura, that spot is already reserved for Yomi. Kensuke plays an increasingly important part in her life, but he'll never take Yomi's place.
It is true that Kensuke will never be what Yomi is to Kagura. However that doesn't mean he will never be as important to her as Yomi is. They are both to her humans of flesh and blood, people who have different but equally important places in her life. That Kagura was willingly to let the Kyuubi possess her in order to save Kensuke shows that he's important enough to let her make such a sacrifice. Is it really too much to ask her to love two different people who, as I;ve said, mean different things but are equally precious to her?

True, the time that Kagura spent with Yomi is far longer than that she spent with Kensuke (before Yomi's resurrection anyway), but ultimately the Yomi she knew before killing her was an idol that Yomi herself had painstakenly constructed. In other words, Kagura didn't know the real Yomi until it was too late, and can we be sure that killing her "sister" had also opened her to the real fragile person hiding behind the idol she had so admired?

In fact, the real reason why Yomi came to loom so much in Kagura's heart is due to Yomi's popularity in the anime. When she first showed up in the manga, she was no more but a plot device to give Kagura some background and to move the story with Mitogawa controlling her from the shadows. Yomi's importance only waxed after Kagura lost her memories, which means for the first half of the manga Yomi had originally meant less to her than it does to, say, Noriyuki. In other words, if Ga-Rei Zero had not elevated Yomi to her current popularity, there is a high chance that the second half of Ga-Rei would be very different from what it is now, with Yomi forever written out from the story after she died again in the first arc. In fact, if it was, say, Noriyuki that was Zero's star, the story may even have steered into a direction where he becomes a major antogonist seeking to revive Yomi, or at least to atone for his sins.

Quote:
If you wish to have Yomi taking a supporting role you have to either

- start the new anime where the manga ended, i.e. where all major conflicts involving Yomi are resolved, freeing up space for Kagura to tackle other issues. I don't think that would work very well for a grimdark scenario, it wouldn't be an adaptation either.

- or change Kagura completely, since the entirety of her character is built around the near-symbiotic relationship with Yomi (which I cannot deny resembles an Emil Sinclair - Max Demian connection, but reaches further).
We have to remember that even after Yomi is reintroduced after the Juugondou arc, the main characters are still Kagura and Kensuke. Yomi, despite her swiftly growing importance, is still a secondary character, abeit one that plays a major part in the story's resolution. In other words, just as Ga-Rei Zero is Kagura and Yomi's story, Ga-Rei is Kagura and Kensuke's story. The series needs to move on, Kagura needs to move on. To continue placing Yomi in a spot where she should have bowed out is an insult to the series, implying that it could do no more but keep on re-using a idea over and over again.

A important element in Ga-Rei, especially from the Juugondou arc onwards, is Kagura's emotional problems and the consequences. As you have so helpfully mentioned, Kagura has been running with a fake smile, due to the unreasonable suffering she and other exorcists have to bear and the weight those suffering bring unto her. And where better to resolve Kagura's emotional issues than the Ga-Rei settings, where she comes into new people who could and would help her move on and fill up the emptiness left by Yomi? Yes, once again, none of them can take Yomi's place but then again, Yomi is incapable of replacing them as well.

Quote:
2) Yomi's battle prowess: This point is of less depth but of no little significance. Kensuke starts out as a rookie, Yomi is a combat prodigy. There is no way he could steal her spotlight in this - for an action-oriented series - important section.
Again, in order to force Yomi into a peripheral position you would have to

- make Kensuke a lot stronger (and the whole rest of the world for that matter)

- or make Yomi weaker.
This is indeed a problemic issue =/. Though firstly, is there a need for Kensuke to match up to Yomi alone? One of the things I like about Ga-Rei is that it has largely avoided the common shounen problem of a lone protagonist suddenly rising in power and take down a previously overwhelming opponent all by himself. The only time that Kensuke comes close to this problem was when he saved Kagura from the Kyuubi's control (by performing Kuwabara Kazuma's Dimensional Blade technique ) and even there the larger issue (the demon running amok) was resolved by Byakuei unleashing its true abilities.

As I see it, one way to tackle this problem is to keep both of them at their respective levels; in short, a powerful Yomi vs the rookie Kensuke. However, the story can and has often included other characters to help tip the scales more or less in Kensuke's favour, most noticably his trusty sidekick Poco the Tanuki. Whether a one-vs-group battle is visually more enjoyable to a one-on-one fight is, I feel, a matter of personal preference, though it would be a nice change from all the man-to-man showdown that has plagued shounen stories.

Also, there's also the yoryoku absorption ability that Kagura, Byakuei, Kensuke and Suina has. This could be expanded on and provide a possible counter to Yomi, though I agree that this ability may not mean much if it comes to a pure swordfight.

Quote:
All of the above would have serious repercussions for what we know as Ga-Rei and may change the series beyond recognition.

In conclusion, I can imagine no scenario that still retains the basic integrity and logic of the original in which Yomi is a side character.

I would appreciate if you could enlighten me on a possible realisation of your concept, or point out the flaws in my reasoning.
Forgive me if I have intepreted your reasoning wrongly, but from what I see, your points here all originated from an inability to conceive a Ga-Rei without Yomi as its lead player. As I've pointed out, Ga-Rei is Kagura and Kensuke's story. If you can just take a step back and consider it from this direction, it would be impossible to see all the possibilities that rush to present themselves before you. To continue pushing Yomi back to the lead character list would in fact be the factor that would change Ga-Rei beyond recognition.

I prefer to see the glass half-full and give Ga-Rei a chance. After all, if Yomi can be become the character she is, why should Ga-Rei itself become an anime worthy of its prequel? Of course, as I've kept pointing out, amendments are needed to weed the crippling elements out and to allow a seamless continuation from Zero to Ga-Rei, but these are in truth not a problem with minds willing to explore the possibilities. After all, any anime of Ga-Rei would be an adaption, and this means the director and storyboard have the right to change things, in this case for the better, as they see fit.
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Old 2011-12-13, 15:10   Link #1430
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Spoiler for spoilered for brevity:
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Old 2011-12-13, 19:08   Link #1431
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My apologies for contributing to what may be unneccessary complications. I think I can grasp your reasoning now somewhat and I agree on many of the points you have raised. Nonetheless I think it is best that I clarify my PoV as well.

1) Despite the difference in atmosphere, Ga-Rei Zero is written with the manga as a basis and as such it is not impossible to follow on from there. A Ga-Rei anime, following Zero's lead, would be one where the manga story is updated with the background provided by Zero, where the excessive lulz elements (which imho is the major factor contributing to the manga's lower status compared to Zero) are weeded out to streamline and intensify the tension, etc. In short, Ga-Rei's story (modified), Zero's style.

2) I accept that Yomi should be no less than a major character. It's just I feel the main focus of a Ga-Rei anime should be at least on Kagura, Yomi and Kensuke, without leaving out any one of them. It's true that Yomi exerts a strong influence in Kagura's life; however Ga-Rei is essentially told through Kagura and Kensuke, whose actions influences each other (though admittably Kensuke may have a weaker influence compared to Yomi's, especially in the final arcs) and as such neither should be undermined.

Now, onwards to the unenviable task of dissecting the cake...

Spoiler for Mindless rambling:


Thank you for reading =w=
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Old 2011-12-17, 17:17   Link #1432
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Thank you for reading =w=
It’s a pleasure to converse with you, so thank you for writing

Spoiler:
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Old 2011-12-24, 06:05   Link #1433
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Spoiler for more goodies:


Spoiler for NSFW:
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Old 2011-12-26, 10:49   Link #1434
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Careph, thank you--for pictures and especially for intelligent discussion. I love this show, and am delighted it has the quality of viewership it deserves.
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Old 2013-09-26, 14:25   Link #1435
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so, a bit late to the party. i'm starting to watch this, and i'm bracing myself for the inevitable train wreck. currently on ep 5, and i'm slowing my pace of watching because i don't want something to happen to Yomi. she's so likable.
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Old 2013-09-27, 06:50   Link #1436
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Heh, I can understand that feeling.

Just make sure not to start browsing this thread, else you will be spoiled badly
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Old 2013-11-16, 10:37   Link #1437
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so, a bit late to the party. i'm starting to watch this, and i'm bracing myself for the inevitable train wreck. currently on ep 5, and i'm slowing my pace of watching because i don't want something to happen to Yomi. she's so likable.
It was the same episode that wanted me to slow down too. Those were the good old days.
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Old 2014-03-29, 13:20   Link #1438
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Yomi totally needs a redemption, if for all her troubles she gets kicked around like a butt monkey/fates bitch. Forgive me if I'm bias towards Yomi it's what I get for watching Zero first before the manga. I would have rather of read it being different than how it was for the most part.
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Old 2014-03-29, 21:26   Link #1439
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And to add onto that Screw Nori damn ferret boy, YOU NEVER deserved Yomi, no idea how she could like him, he's pathetic. well I pretty much have him and ken on the same boat.
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Old 2014-03-30, 13:49   Link #1440
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Yomi totally needs a redemption, if for all her troubles she gets kicked around like a butt monkey/fates bitch. Forgive me if I'm bias towards Yomi it's what I get for watching Zero first before the manga. I would have rather of read it being different than how it was for the most part.
It's interesting that you feel Yomi needs redemption for "all her troubles", when some might say she has to redeem herself for committing so many atrocities.
Perhaps all the good things she had done for others were balanced by all the bad things she did later on? Perhaps the two are incommensurable and stand side by side as a kind of double injustice: Injustice committed against her by others as well as injustice she committed against others ...

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