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Old 2004-12-13, 22:37   Link #41
vega98767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShurikenJay
Yes I agree. Chidori on the other hand would be a bit more difficult for Neji. Chidori requires both a high speed body for the body activation ability (heightened flesh) that Kakashi says is neccessary for the jutsu and you must use the bulk of your chakra in one shot. Thats why Naruto could not do Chidori. Since Sasuke can only do the jutsu twice before his chakra is spent it takes an incredible amount of chakra to do such a jutsu, nearly half of his reserves a piece. Kakashi uses 1/4 of his chakra per Chidori. Altough Jiraiya and Naruto certainly have large chakra pools Naruto is still just a kid and I don't think he has much more capacity than Sasuke and Neji, certainly more but now by leaps and bounds.
Rasengan is definitely a jutsu that requires a minimal amount of energy with precise control that becomes a devastating jutsu when complete. If it weren't for the fact that Chidori utilizes sharingan to make it a complete jutsu I'd say that Rasengan was the superior jutsu as you can do it over and over again.
I agree with the statement about Neji almost having the amount of Chakra as Naruto does. I am totally not sure how the Kaiten compares to Rasengan in Chakra drain but its enough Chakra control to prevent the enemys attack from hitting Neji and then using this Chakra from the entire body to parry and knock back the enemy. And its not like Neji does this once, he does it four times against Naruto. Now maybe this totally doesn't equal the amount that Rasengan uses but to expel that much chakra from Nejis body more than once in that fight against Naruto shows that Neji definetly has a good amount of Chakra and stamina.
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Old 2004-12-13, 22:38   Link #42
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Damn, well I was just sort of going off the whole idea that, at least according to certain reliable characters, no one seems to be able to grab the rasengan. Jiraya even called a screw up in comparison to his teammastes is a genius compared to Neji. He graaduated at 6 or 7 and has had a really long, long long time to work on it. The fourth, everyone agrees is the man, and while I think Neji is the man, big N is no where near the man status of the fourth. Granted that logic is a little fuzzy when held up to the light but I hope it is taken in context of your own acknowledgements of the manness of the fourth.

On a more serious note it is entirely possible that Jiraya was graaduated early because of the wars, so you could be entirely right. However there is a feeling that I get that this abilty is not one that can be aquired with any ease by anybody, and naruto has a unique and almost supernatural adavantage in learning it.
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Old 2004-12-13, 23:21   Link #43
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Originally Posted by Shrimpusmaximus
So neji might be able to learn as people have pointed out he has a genius for innovating, but his stellar chakra control might just do nothing for the rasengan as it is external manipulation, which he shows no talent for. The hakkeshou kaiten just pushes chakra out of his sytem, then he spins. Gentle fist just pushes it out, albeit in a very small area. So I say, the big N has more of a chance than most but still frankly null as compare to the big N, wait, which one should be big N and which one should be little n.... I love them both so....
Neji has shown a mastery in manipulating chakra in his fight with Hinata, when he closed her chakra holes, which Kakashi mentions are as big as a needle tip and most recently in chapters 193s and more importantly 196, where he "moved" his chakra.
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Old 2004-12-13, 23:33   Link #44
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just my opion but that isn't exteranl manipulation. Its pressing tenketsu a purely physical phenomena
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Old 2004-12-13, 23:33   Link #45
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People who we are never going to see doing a rasengan: Neji, Sasuke

Reason why they wont be doing it: not enough chakura. If it was anything else they could do it. But they cannot. "control" is not an issue for them. And theyve seen it done (with sharigan running no less - dont spout that nonsense about only being able to copy hand seals, he copied lee's taijutu speed with it already) so its not like they need a teacher.

Maybe they just dont want to because its not their style? Well, it its supposedly so much chakura cheaper than Chidori, you'd expect that sasuke would have already given it up for the lower cost and higher damage output. But he hasnt, because its not an option for him.

It'd be interesting to see what a full power rasengan would do when directly opposed by kaiten. I think it is probably one of the few attacks that could penetrate it.
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Old 2004-12-13, 23:39   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShurikenJay
Naruto certianly has alot of chakra to give but mass sums? I think not. With Kyuubi ofcourse he does but he doesn't use Kyuubi a whole lot and we never see him use it with Rasengan.
Hes *always* using kyuubi power, he cant help it. (regenarating, refilling and stretching his normal capacity, etc)

The only time they show him directly requesting chakura from the kyuubi is when he has to do a massive summon, is completed tapped out, or wants to fight with kyuubi taijutu style.

You dont really think a perfectly ordinary 12 year old genin should be able to make 400 kage bunshin all at once? Hes highly abnormal. (they havent even shown sasuke use one kage bunshin yet, much less 400) He takes 64 death touches from Neji, nerve and muscle severing attacks from Kabuto, thens gets up for more.
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Old 2004-12-13, 23:43   Link #47
socomberetta
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Originally Posted by Shrimpusmaximus
just my opion but that isn't exteranl manipulation. Its pressing tenketsu a purely physical phenomena
Fine by me, but the other chapters I referred to do show Neji manipulating his chakra, the last one shows that he could do so at an almost larger scale than Naruto.
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Old 2004-12-13, 23:49   Link #48
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What about neji's divination wheel you see that massive chakra control there in a dome shape...isn't that good enough control for the rasengan? (point of reference naruto vs neji at chuunin exam)
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Old 2004-12-13, 23:49   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimpusmaximus
just my opion but that isn't exteranl manipulation. Its pressing tenketsu a purely physical phenomena
Neji has done a whole lot more with his chakra than shown in the Naruto fight...
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Old 2004-12-14, 00:59   Link #50
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Besides, Neji seems to be able to form and control this chakra at any time. Naruto MUST BE provoked somehow. He can only summon the frog boss when Sakura was in trouble and he was only able to do Rasengan good enough was when he had to protect Tsunade. Now he did perform it well when he fought Aoi and broke the sword so I guess that could refute my statement but in other cases Naruto usually fails at summoning or doing other jutsus well unless hes provoked to really do it where as Neji can have that "I am better than you and I barely have to try attitude" and produce Kaiten after Kaiten. Yes Naruto has a very big advantage by having Kyubi but if Jiraiya took Neji aside and were to teach him the fundamentals of Rasengan then Neji has the tools to learn it except for the regeneration of Kyubi. Other than that Neji has very good chance of learning it.
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Old 2004-12-14, 01:18   Link #51
MysticNinjaJay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Srin Tuar
Hes *always* using kyuubi power, he cant help it. (regenarating, refilling and stretching his normal capacity, etc)

The only time they show him directly requesting chakura from the kyuubi is when he has to do a massive summon, is completed tapped out, or wants to fight with kyuubi taijutu style.

You dont really think a perfectly ordinary 12 year old genin should be able to make 400 kage bunshin all at once? Hes highly abnormal. (they havent even shown sasuke use one kage bunshin yet, much less 400) He takes 64 death touches from Neji, nerve and muscle severing attacks from Kabuto, thens gets up for more.
That all has to do with Naruto's will power more so than Kyuubi's power. You're right he does use Kyuubi's "power" all the time I was referring to his chakra. That power is also not instantaneous, it took about a minute for Naruto to heal from his hand wound during the wave mission we me made that pledge. He only began healing from his fight with Kiba shortly after the fight. Thats all external damage too, we don't know how efficient Naruto's internal damage is. When he gets hurt he stays hurt. His getting up from damage is a display of his determination to never quit not his supernatural ability. And no ofcourse a "normal" 12 year old ninja can't do all those Kage bunshins. That is however what makes Naruto unique. He has an incredible stamina capacity which means when he gets really focused he can do crazy things like create an army of clones. Once he goes berserk or summons fourth Kyuubi's chakra that is when he has the seemingly unlimited chakra capacity. Otherwise his own chakra capacity is above average, not beyond belief. And just because Sasuke has never done Kage Bunshin doesn't mean he is incapable of it. Kakashi also says Sasuke has an immense chakra potential, just not on par with Naruto's potential.
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Old 2004-12-14, 02:18   Link #52
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Remember, Naruto has two chakras, and even the smaller of the two (his natural blue chakra) exists in much greater supply than any other genin's. (Normal chakra = stamina; Naruto's stamina > anyone else's)

A completely formed rasengan requires 100% of Naruto's available non-Kyuubi chakra (third stage of Naruto's rasengan training).

Therefore, rasengan almost certainly uses more chakra than any other jutsu we've seen a genin perform, including chidori (possibly excluding Gaara's transformation).

It follows then that if rasengan requires 100% of Naruto's current chakra, which exists in greater supply than any other genin's, no other genin is currently capable of performing a rasengan.

(Well, maybe Gaara could do it, but why would he ever need too?)
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Old 2004-12-14, 02:39   Link #53
Animizzle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reticent
A completely formed rasengan requires 100% of Naruto's available non-Kyuubi chakra (third stage of Naruto's rasengan training).

Therefore, rasengan almost certainly uses more chakra than any other jutsu we've seen a genin perform, including chidori (possibly excluding Gaara's transformation).

It follows then that if rasengan requires 100% of Naruto's current chakra, which exists in greater supply than any other genin's, no other genin is currently capable of performing a rasengan.
Bullshit, Jiraya said he had to used 100% of what he learned so far to complete the third stage. Not 100% of his chakra.
Besides, Jirayia never talked about a limit of times Naruto could perform the rasengan. Whereas Kakashi was really keen on teaching Sasuke to NOT overdo the Chidori.
Which leads me to believe that Chidori takes up more Chakra.
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Old 2004-12-14, 02:43   Link #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UserName
Well. Let's see here. Neji either has a whole lot of chakra, or else he has great control. Or a mixture of both.

We've seen im do the kaiten over and over again and not get tired from chakra loss.

Naruto has a lot of chakra so he was able to practice more and form it. Rasengan is more about chakra controlling it seems and well Neji can control chakra quite well. He can control the flow, the hakke is a move that controls the flow of chakra.

So yes, I think Neji would be able to learn it and a lot faster than Naruto(who took about 2 months or more to learn it).
he didnt take 3 months in the anime it was like 1 week and 4 days in the manga it may have been 3 months...


3 things naruto has over every one else in the series...

1. A naturaly large chakra as big as a junins eventualy near a sanin he can use just his chakra to summon boss frog. And his rasengan are all his.

2. This is due to nine tales fox being confined in him linked to his chakra. The link causes him to heal overnight and his chakra regen very quickly faster than any one else.

3. If he were to get pissed enough and his life was threatened he can request a boost from kyuubi and ever since he left the hidden village of the mist he hasnt used kyuubi...And if you watch the opening it is going to get upgraded sometime soon to the point he grows fangs and fox eyes like he had before when the fox just took control of him...

of course all my knowlege on the subjects comes from the anime...

Last edited by Lunas; 2004-12-14 at 02:54.
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Old 2004-12-14, 02:49   Link #55
socomberetta
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Originally Posted by Reticent
Remember, Naruto has two chakras, and even the smaller of the two (his natural blue chakra) exists in much greater supply than any other genin's. (Normal chakra = stamina; Naruto's stamina > anyone else's)

A completely formed rasengan requires 100% of Naruto's available non-Kyuubi chakra (third stage of Naruto's rasengan training).

Therefore, rasengan almost certainly uses more chakra than any other jutsu we've seen a genin perform, including chidori (possibly excluding Gaara's transformation).

It follows then that if rasengan requires 100% of Naruto's current chakra, which exists in greater supply than any other genin's, no other genin is currently capable of performing a rasengan.

(Well, maybe Gaara could do it, but why would he ever need too?)
Remember when Jiraiya first demonstrated the technique to Naruto on that ex-Stone Chuunin? The level of damage on that guy was not nearly as much as Kabuto received after getting hit by Naruto's rasengan (i.e., he would have died had it not been for his regenerative ability.)

Now assuming that the amount of power Naruto used to thrash Kabuto was the same amount he used to destroy the rubberball, then it's pretty obvious to me that the rasengan doesnt use a set amount of chakra all the time. Given that the amount of power Jiraiya used in the rasengan he created while teaching Naruto the third step, was more than that of Naruto's when he destroyed the rubberball.

With that, I think that someone given the same training as Naruto but without the chakra capacity of his, can create a rasengan, but its power will pale in comparison to his at its maximum, and that the rasengan definitely varies in power depending on the user.
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Old 2004-12-14, 03:27   Link #56
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Episode 92: Naruto, training so as to win his bet with Tsunade, has just hit a dead tree for the umpteenth time with a failed rasengan and thinks back to the guidance Jiraiya has given him-

Naruto: "Over and over in my head I know it! But still... I cannot extract 100% of my power properly."

-AH's translation-

I imagine the non-lethal rasengan Jiraiya used was basicaly performed the same way as one of Naruto's failed rasengan.
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Old 2004-12-14, 03:46   Link #57
socomberetta
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Originally Posted by Reticent
Episode 92: Naruto, training so as to win his bet with Tsunade, has just hit a dead tree for the umpteenth time with a failed rasengan and thinks back to the guidance Jiraiya has given him-

Naruto: "Over and over in my head I know it! But still... I cannot extract 100% of my power properly."

-AH's translation-

I imagine the non-lethal rasengan Jiraiya used was basicaly performed the same way as one of Naruto's failed rasengan.
Why would Jiraiya, who wants Naruto to learn the rasengan, perform a "failed" version as an example instead of the real deal? That sort of defeats the purpose of teaching him in the first place.
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Old 2004-12-14, 05:25   Link #58
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Originally Posted by socomberetta
Why would Jiraiya, who wants Naruto to learn the rasengan, perform a "failed" version as an example instead of the real deal? That sort of defeats the purpose of teaching him in the first place.
Because nice guys don't commit murder?
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Old 2004-12-14, 05:32   Link #59
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You know ...

Given that Neji had the raw chakra capacity for it, I think he could master rasengan. He's certainly got the insight, he may have the control (we haven't really seen much instance of chakra control in him though -- we don't know if that tenketsu poke is based on just ultra-fine taijutsu or if it's based on ultra-fine chakra control instead).

The question is .... why the hell would he?

Yeah, Rasengan is devestatingly powerful. It's also extremely close range, and only useful in a VERY situational perspective. Naruto overuses it, just like he overuses kagebunshin no jutsu. He has such a small vocabulary of techniques to work with that he relies on the few he has to an obscene level. Not only that, but it complements his attributes and fighting style extremely well.

Rasengan would NOT complement Neji, nor Sasuke, nor Kakashi. Any of them could probably learn the move, given chakra capacity, time to learn the move, and assuming they already have the specialized control that Naruto worked so hard for.

But, to put it in RPG terms, it's like giving a paladin a dagger, or a black mage a great maul. Sure, the black mage can swing the damned hammer, but he'll never be great at it, and it'll never be as useful to them as having a weapon that complements his innate abilities.

Neji's Byakugan is SUCH a dominant asset of his, and SO irreplaceable in his arsenal, that his entire style -- his ninjutsu, his genjutsu, his taijutsu -- entirely revolves around using or complementing it. Just like sharingan.

Sharingan is well-served by chidori (it's focused, it's devestating, it's an extremely precise tool). It's just as well served by the numerous less-intensive techniques that its users learn. Think of Kakashi, the man of a thousand techniques. He is so formidable because not only does he have a large technique vocabulary, but he knows it so intimately that he can instantly pick just the right technique for the situation, the environment, and the enemy he's fighting.

Neji is best served by focusing on enhancing what he has over building what he doesn't. By specializing, he can make his abilities more useful than anyone else's for his specific role (as observation, scouting, defense, to a lesser extent offense).

If he DOESN'T go for enhancing what he has, he'll end up a "jack of all trades" -- which of course is synonymous with being "a master of none". By allowing himself to lose out in one area, he gains an enormous advantage in another, and can then rely on the team to cover his weaknesses. Or he can be mediocre at everything, waste his gifts, and be completely useless to anyone and stay a genin forever.

Maybe the best analogy would be a lefty deciding that while they can write beautifully with their left hand, they would rather be writing with their right foot, and teaching themselves to do so.
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Old 2004-12-14, 05:45   Link #60
socomberetta
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Because nice guys don't commit murder?
Uh, not necessarily. Look at Itachi for example. He was pretty polite with Asuma and Kurenai, acting all nice-like, yet he didnt have any qualms about killing them when he deemed it necessary.

Also, if you read the latest chapters you can see how nice guys can turn out to be the most ruthless of murderers.

In this instance, I think its more likely that Jiraiya didnt use the amount of power in the rasengan he created like he did during Naruto's training, because he's a nice guy.
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