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Old 2012-01-01, 02:50   Link #26741
Von Himmel
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The fact that you don't care about the author's perspective means there is absolutely no truth we can discuss about. Therefore there is no point in arguing whether shkanon is true or not. If you like to think shkanon is false, be my guest.
Sorry for going a bit OOT, but I want to ask something about this. Is this what Ryukishi trying to portray during that Ange vs Bern scene in ep 8? I mean the part where Ange believes in her own truth even though it might not be the real truth at all...
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Old 2012-01-01, 02:54   Link #26742
unsuspectingvisitor
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post


Yeah it can, its called a non- applied retcon!

But anyways, he gives me an "if."

I'll give an "if" back.

He has no proof for his "if."

I have no proof for mine.

So I'll just disagree with him.

Yes, that's right, I'll disagree with the author who can't provide solid answers.
You forgot the fact that HE was the author . There's no way that he didn't know the answers to Umineko sound novel. The interview thing was Ryukishin's way to give hints about the series so please understand that.

Anyway, I just happened to look at the manga and to me it seems like your argument was similar to what was happening in the background.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/uminek...2/c006/12.html

I forgot to mention the thing about the Red truth. I remember Ryukishin said in one of his interviews that the red truth was the word of god. Ryukishin was the author of umineko so he must be the god in umineko. With that in mind I can safely say that everything he told us in his inverviews about umineko can be considered a Red truth.

Last edited by unsuspectingvisitor; 2012-01-01 at 03:22.
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Old 2012-01-01, 03:37   Link #26743
ErenselTheJester
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You aren't asking for hints, you are asking for proofs. Hints are subtle by definition, you are asking for something that isn't subtle at all. It is only natural that some people will not recognize a hint for what it is, but if you had some humility you'd recognize that those were hints after all once the truth is revealed, but you don't.
Again, calm down, you don't know anything better than I do, so I would suggest that you be humble with your speech.

Now, I know what a hint is, I can recognize one when I see it, and I'm not saying that none of the stuff in Umineko are hints. I'm saying they're too subjective for me, what you take as a hint is just another "big question" for me to answer.

Here are a few parts of Umineko that were hints to me:

Shannon's BS in EP7
The Love Duel in EP6
The Eva- Culprit Theory from EP3
The Battler's Family Culprit Theory from EP8

Naturally there's more than that, but the commonality between is that they contain facts. Shannon's BS was formed from the fact that she and Kanon cannot be together in front of the detective. The Love Duel was formed from the fact that Shannon and Kanon cannot be happy together for some odd reason. And the thing about all these facts is that ask the question "Why?" This is all I ask for from Ryukishi to prove his point.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Your claim that the author's word is irrelevant is absolutely unreasonable from my perspective.
There is no inherent truth in a story, a story is fiction, it doesn't exist. The only truth you can look for in a story is what the author meant his story to be. If the author didn't think about a truth for his story, therefore there is simply no truth. For example if Ryuukishi never decided who among Furfur and Zepar is male (which is probably the case), then there is simply no truth about that.
I'm not denying that Ryukishi has an intended truth, in fact I trust in alot of the stuff he says. I listen to the stuff he says, noting it in my head, but if what he says isn't backed up by what he writes, it amounts to nothing. All it becomes is just him trying to fill in gaps he knows he has left behind. But I don't believe that's the case. I believe that he wants me to find some intended truth, and I will. But since I can't see any hints to what that truth is, I'll just come up with my own deductions and hope that I'm close.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You can discuss about things that have no truth, but you can't argue about them. If there is no truth then there can't be anyone right or wrong, and it's pointless to discuss about it.
I agree with you, but that's not the case here.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If you like to think shkanon is false, be my guest.
I've been saying that for I don't know how long and now you decide to take this stance on it?

@AuraTwilight: Yeah, I know, but I have hope. I've at least found stuff that's straight- forward enough to be objective, like Shannon's BS. That to me confirms that Shannon and Kanon are not meant to be in front of the detective at the same time, so I can at least take that as objective. The Love Duel's somewhat straight- forward but still enough to be fact.

@unsuspectingvisitor: I know he's the author. I know full well that he's the author. But to me, its Creator says one thing, Creation says another. Its like God created a little boy, then states that the little boy has six fingers. You look at the boy, and there's only five. So where's the sixth finger? I'm not saying that his word doesn't mean anything, especially since alot of what he says is the basis of my perspectives on the story, but there's a point where I expect his answers to match up with his work, and his work doesn't even hint to what he said. Really, its not what he said that I'm denying, its the way he said it.

Last edited by ErenselTheJester; 2012-01-01 at 03:47.
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Old 2012-01-01, 04:13   Link #26744
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What kind of answer that Ryukishin said in his interview that wasn't hinted in the stories? show me some examples then.
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Old 2012-01-01, 04:53   Link #26745
LyricalAura
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EDIT 2/1/12: It turns out that the scans this summary was based on were missing a couple of pages and were partially out of order. The missing parts don't add any substantial information, but I'll link a corrected version here once I've posted it.

---

Well, this ended up being more detailed than I intended, but here's my summary of Our Confession. I also did a full translation of Dlanor's foreword and a couple speeches that seemed important or interesting.

A couple points beforehand:
  • The manuscript proper has both game board narration by Piece-Beatrice and notes by Meta-Beatrice. I used "Beato" for the meta one and "Piece-Beatrice" for the game board one.
  • If anyone knows who that aide of Dlanor's is, let me know and I'll fix the name.

Spoiler for Dlanor and Beato:

Spoiler for Dlanor's Foreword:

Spoiler for Accomplices:

Spoiler for 1st Twilight:

Spoiler for 2nd Twilight:

Spoiler for 5th, 6th, 8th Twilights:

Spoiler for 7th Twilight:

Spoiler for 4th Twilight:


I'll probably have more thoughts about this later when I'm not half-asleep, but for the time being:
  • With the exception of one line that I'm not even sure about, Battler doesn't appear anywhere in the narrative. I know it's a work-in-progress, but it seems odd that the main character's actions wouldn't be accounted for.
  • Solid accomplice motives all around... except for Genji, who is a stone wall again and just does whatever Beato wants without any backstory. What's going on here? Piece-Beatrice herself is pretty clear that she's in a fiction, so is this confirmation that they're using meta motives?
  • Speaking of which, Shkanon is super-confirmed, Erensel. Sorry. Despite that, there's only the slightest pretense that they're different people when they're alone with each other. Shannon and Kanon help set up their own murder scenes and chat amiably with Beatrice without any particular drama.
  • I'm about 75% sure that Meta-Beatrice is Ikuko.
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2012-02-01 at 17:03.
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Old 2012-01-01, 04:57   Link #26746
ErenselTheJester
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Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
What kind of answer that Ryukishin said in his interview that wasn't hinted in the stories? show me some examples then.
Shannon's chest, its only thing that has no hint whatsoever about it. He says that if Battler were to feel her chest, he would find that it was flat. The "if" is what gets me.

I'm sorry, its 5:00 am where I'm at, so I'm going to bed. See ya...
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Old 2012-01-01, 05:06   Link #26747
AuraTwilight
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I am so glad I was right about Meta-Motives, because that was pretty much my main cornerstone of "Yasu Didn't Do it."
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Old 2012-01-01, 05:08   Link #26748
Cao Ni Ma
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So pretty much what we were expecting about a fake murder game with a heavy chance of meta motive for all of it.
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Old 2012-01-01, 05:12   Link #26749
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Interesting stuff. By work in progress do you mean there is more to it that you haven't translated or do you mean that you have to clean it up? If that's all, I can't say I am shocked but he went a route I didn't think he would.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I am so glad I was right about Meta-Motives, because that was pretty much my main cornerstone of "Yasu Didn't Do it."
Maybe I misread, but doesn't the translation seem to be the other way around? I know it uses meta-motives, but it looks like Yasu did it. Then again, it's just another fiction.
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Old 2012-01-01, 05:17   Link #26750
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Interesting stuff. By work in progress do you mean there is more to it that you haven't translated or do you mean that you have to clean it up? If that's all, I can't say I am shocked but he went a route I didn't think he would.
By "work in progress", I mean that what Beato gave to Dlanor was a manuscript that she hadn't finished writing yet. That's why it still has all of her notes and trick explanations in it.

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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Maybe I misread, but doesn't the translation seem to be the other way around? I know it uses meta-motives, but it looks like Yasu did it. Then again, it's just another fiction.
I think what we learned is that being furniture means you don't have to have motives for doing things other than "the author in a higher dimension thinks it'll make an interesting story." So the reason we can't figure out a plausible motive for Yasu to kill her whole family in R-Prime could easily be that she didn't actually have one, and therefore didn't do it.
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Old 2012-01-01, 05:28   Link #26751
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Maybe I misread, but doesn't the translation seem to be the other way around? I know it uses meta-motives, but it looks like Yasu did it. Then again, it's just another fiction.
Well of course, all the stories have her as the murderer. The issue is, if the motive for the murders was meta, would that be enough for her to follow trough them in prime? Would she kill for a meta reason in a "real world"? If so then she's just insane.

This is the Beatrice we are meant to dislike, the scheming one that stabs people in the back and kills them for no apparent reason. That actually enjoys doing that, rubs it on our faces and expects us to laugh and go along with her. If we actually though she did it, we would be furious at her. But if we didnt we'd probably go "Cool story bro".
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Old 2012-01-01, 06:14   Link #26752
unsuspectingvisitor
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Shannon's chest, its only thing that has no hint whatsoever about it. He says that if Battler were to feel her chest, he would find that it was flat. The "if" is what gets me.

I'm sorry, its 5:00 am where I'm at, so I'm going to bed. See ya...
I think the thing about shannon's chest was irrelevant if you try to put it in the stories. That's why he only talk about it in the interview.

About the "If" thing. He was just saying a possibility "If" Battler touches Shannon's chest. But that never happened in the novel as far as i know. But you know what i think you got it wrong. It seems like he was just telling us the truth about Shannon's breast. The truth that he was unable to put in his stories.


@Lyrical what do you mean by "I am 75% sure that Meta-Beatrice is Ikuko" ?

Edit: Can anyone try to breakdown Ep1-Ep5 stories with those info that we got in lyrical's summary of our confession?
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Old 2012-01-01, 06:56   Link #26753
Swigun
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Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
Can anyone try to breakdown Ep1-Ep5 stories with those info that we got in lyrical's summary of our confession?
Mh...
Spoiler for various spoiler:

I don't understand if lyrical (great work!) has finished his summary...

I'll wait for
Spoiler for illusions to illusions:
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Old 2012-01-01, 07:22   Link #26754
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Meta-Motive, uh? I really don't see it, from the text the motive is the same as ep VII Tea Party, Roulette of fate etc.

That said, it didn't tell us anything we didn't know already, maybe just that Yasu tricked them into a fake murder mystery before killing them (which kinda explains why everyone went along with that bullshit... except Genji, because he's a robot anyway.)... i hope it isn't finished (thanks LyricalAura) because it's kinda disappointing.


Quote:
- Krauss as accomplice confirmed (I think it refers to Ep1, the gold ingot is a proof)
Hideyoshi is most likely ep 1 accomplice, i actually think Krauss was never an accomplice and R07 used him as an example in this because of that.
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Old 2012-01-01, 07:31   Link #26755
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Well, not what I was expecting, honestly. I kind of thought we'd get an actual breakdown of how each murder was committed in E1-5. This does give us pretty much all the information we need, I guess...although it's mostly just confirming fan theories.

I always thought the 'pretend murder mystery' thing was kind of silly, though, so I'm sort of disappointed that it got confirmed. I don't understand why Yasu wouldn't just KEEP it as a pretend murder mystery rather than actually killing the people. I'd be able to sympathise with her a lot more if that was the case, but this says otherwise =/ The only reason I can see for her doing it like this is, like people are saying, meta-motives: so that Meta-Beatrice can say that the people are dead in red. If so that's kind of weak, because it means Meta-Battler can't realistically solve the 'why dunnit'.

I'll probably try and do a breakdown of E1-5 later if nobody else does, although honestly by this point it'd be pretty easy for anyone.
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Old 2012-01-01, 07:38   Link #26756
Swigun
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Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
Hideyoshi is most likely ep 1 accomplice, i actually think Krauss was never an accomplice and R07 used him as an example in this because of that.
Yes, I didn't mean Krauss was the only accomplice XD

In fact, I think that all of them knows the plan (Rudolf's words, for example), but Krauss was an accomplice before the family conference.
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Old 2012-01-01, 07:49   Link #26757
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Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem like there's any mention of Maria in there either.

Kind of surprising, since she's pretty obviously an accomplice as well. I think most people assume Maria locked the door of the parlor for twilights 6-8 of EP1, though you could also say that Beatrice simply hid in the room or something.

Edit: Also, still no mention of why Yasu continued committing murders after the epitaph was solved in EP3, though you can easily explain it away by saying that Yasu agreed to co-operate with Eva's plan after she became the new Golden Witch.
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Old 2012-01-01, 08:00   Link #26758
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so this confirms that yasu is the culprit?
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Old 2012-01-01, 08:00   Link #26759
Cao Ni Ma
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Problem is that it wasnt Beatrice the one that killed them (George, Hideyoshi). It was Eva Beatrice. If Beatrice is Yasu, then who is Eva-Beatrice? Would it really be Eva?

The way I interpret it was that at any time you saw Beatrice killing someone, it was basically Yasu killing someone for whatever reason. But then you have a story like EP3 with Eva Beatrice and EP5 with the "man" murdering people. Can we say that in these cases, Beatrice had no part in the events?

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so this confirms that yasu is the culprit?
In the stories? Sure, if you believe that Beatrice is Yasu.
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Old 2012-01-01, 08:10   Link #26760
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So basically this confirms the fake murder plan, which is the only way to plausibly justify the existence of so many accomplices.

However this doesn't explain the big question about it, as Drifflon already mentioned.

This story confirms that the mystery fake scenario is a game "Beato" created for Battler. But if fake corpses work as well as true corpses, why she had to kill anyone at all?
Even if she wanted everyone to die when\if Battler failed, she could let the bomb do the job.

I guess this question will remain unanswered.
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