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Old 2012-01-01, 08:12   Link #26761
Drifloon
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Hm, well, in both of those cases, the murders that are shown to be committed by someone other than Beatrice occur after the epitaph is solved (EP3 and EP5). And it makes perfect sense that Yasu would cease her plan after the epitaph is solved.

In that case, who is the culprit for those murders? Eva definitely didn't kill Nanjo, and almost certainly wouldn't kill George or Hideyoshi, yet all those murders are presented as being done by EVA Beatrice. On the other hand, Beatrice is shown to kill Maria and Rosa the final time, when it would make more sense for Eva than Yasu in that case.

Well, so much for Our Confession giving us all the answers
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Old 2012-01-01, 08:23   Link #26762
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I never really expected that ^^;

But anyway, if what Beatrice wished for was for someone to guess that much, doesn't that mean that we actually guessed that?

The fake murder plan has been theorized since EP5. The Shanon culprit theory is as old as at least EP4, her motive was more or less guessed too by pinpointing the "white horse" line and the talk between Battler and Beatrice screamed "broken promise". Shkanon is also incredibly old as a theory.

The epitaph was solved after EP5, after the only direct hint to Taiwan was mentioned. Beato only solved it after she was spoonfed about "Taiwan" by Genji.
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Old 2012-01-01, 08:27   Link #26763
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That RK07, first he screws the meaning of "People" and "killing" and "dead". Now he even screws up the meaning of "Confession". Clearly the man doesn't understand words at all.
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Old 2012-01-01, 08:57   Link #26764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Problem is that it wasnt Beatrice the one that killed them (George, Hideyoshi). It was Eva Beatrice. If Beatrice is Yasu, then who is Eva-Beatrice? Would it really be Eva?

The way I interpret it was that at any time you saw Beatrice killing someone, it was basically Yasu killing someone for whatever reason. But then you have a story like EP3 with Eva Beatrice and EP5 with the "man" murdering people. Can we say that in these cases, Beatrice had no part in the events?

In the stories? Sure, if you believe that Beatrice is Yasu.
It's an interesting question.
Let's try this.
Eva actually didn't solve the epitaph when we were said she did, she was just chosen as accomplice.
To agree to become an acomplice she asked the solution to the epitaph in exchange and the title of head. Yasu agrees but Eva must promise not to reveal she has 'solved' the epitaph.
So, since she technically hadn't solved it but was handed the solution, the murders can't stop.
However Yasu finishes the epitaph murders prior to killing her, Eva realizes people is being killed for real, go mad because she's an accomplice of some sort, though she expected it to be a game and kills Battler in retaliation as it's due to him the game was taking place then escapes with the ring through the passage as she was told about it.

Likely she abandoned Jessica either because she couldn't find her or because she knew Jessica wouldn't follow her (hard to explain everything to her).

It'll be interesting to know if Yasu committed suicide or Eva killed her when she realized she was murdering people for real.
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Old 2012-01-01, 09:02   Link #26765
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Well the "man" in EP5 can only be Yasu. Since Beatrice "died" Yasu couldn't use her as the acting persona. The motive in EP5 is probably different as well. It is an unusual game without "love" after all.

So the setting of EP5 is probably Yasu trying to get her revenge against Natsuhi.
If you can have a game where Lion was accepted by Natsuhi, you can also have this kind of game.
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Old 2012-01-01, 09:04   Link #26766
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jjblue: That's an interesting theory. But then, why were George and Nanjo killed? The epitaph murders were already complete with Krauss and Natsuhi.
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Old 2012-01-01, 09:11   Link #26767
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Well, I have some thought with the summery so far:

1. Krauss did not think of finding a chance to beat the heck out of Yasu when the kid is alone ? Seriously, he/she is a weak kid that actually knows no physical abuse up until now, I don't think he/she would stand many blows. Anybody who comes to me with some shit like "lol you help me or I blow up your family" pretty much introduce himself at crazy and not to be trust to me.

2. It's surely just a story, fiction. It introduced nothing particularly new about what actually happened.

3. Personally I hope it is just Yasu' scenario for the games. Or her killing fantasy. Or her attempt to really put the blame of the murder on herself to spare the family. If not, if she's really the culprit, if she really went with it, I'm sorry I cannot sympathize with her. She's a monster. What kind of disgusting love is this?

Then again, I might have skimmed that too fast and misunderstand this a lot. If somebody could clarify it, I would be more than happy.
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Old 2012-01-01, 09:19   Link #26768
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If it's really a fictional story that doesn't mean anything, why would Ryukishi have bothered writing it? I mean, it's definitely not what actually happened in R-Prime, but it is presumably the intended solution of the gameboard.

I have to agree that I can't possibly sympathise with Yasu if this is the actual solution, but everything R07 has done since Episode 6 seems to insist that it is. =/
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Old 2012-01-01, 09:22   Link #26769
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However something must have gone wrong in Yasu's plans in Rokkenjima Prime. The survival of Eva and Battler doesn't seem to have ever been part of it.

Tohya says that they have been told that the tunnel would lead to Kuwadorian and that it would be safe from the explosion. The easiest explanation is that the epitaph was solved. And this "confession" implies that if they solved the epitaph Beatrice would stop hes murderous plan.
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Old 2012-01-01, 09:23   Link #26770
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Ok, going through it right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Well, not what I was expecting, honestly. I kind of thought we'd get an actual breakdown of how each murder was committed in E1-5.
Yeah, me too. Although, knowing Ryukishi, I should have expected it wasn't going to be spoonfed answers all along...
Two questions for you, gentlemen. First, I'm not quite sure what are you all referring to by 'meta-motive'. Do you mean that piece!Beatrice committed murder just because meta!Beato wanted so? Second, any thoughts on the 'third story' mentioned by Dlanor? I'll admit I'm quite dense but I'm betting my money it has something to do with love.
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Old 2012-01-01, 09:27   Link #26771
Jan-Poo
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I personally I think that the lack of mention about the motive is simply due to the fact that Ryuukishi believes he made it clear enough already in the story.

Actually... he outright stated Yasu's motive in the interview with Keya already.

Quote:
Because Umineko is „the story of a single girl who arrived at that point because she imagined an incident because of the love and madness in herself“,
Naturally we are talking about the games here.
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Old 2012-01-01, 09:39   Link #26772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
Sorry for going a bit OOT, but I want to ask something about this. Is this what Ryukishi trying to portray during that Ange vs Bern scene in ep 8? I mean the part where Ange believes in her own truth even though it might not be the real truth at all...
To answer Von Himmel, I think that the metaworld is a place where belief is everything.

If you believe in magic, magic can kill you, if you don't believe in magic, it's completley harmless.
In EP4 Meta-Beatrice tried to erase Meta-Battler simply by questioning his existence. If Meta-Battler lost his sense of self he'd disappear.

Apprenlty even red truths cannot defy this. If you don't believe in them, they simply cannot "hurt" you. In the end Ange chose "magic" over "truth", at that point no truth could ever hurt her. That's what Battler has been trying to teach her the whole way, and that's what Ange in the magic end tries to teach to the children of the world.


P.S: I don't think that's a good thing
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Old 2012-01-01, 10:07   Link #26773
Misuzu
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Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
That said, it didn't tell us anything we didn't know already, maybe just that Yasu tricked them into a fake murder mystery before killing them (which kinda explains why everyone went along with that bullshit... except Genji, because he's a robot anyway.)... i hope it isn't finished (thanks LyricalAura) because it's kinda disappointing.
Until I'm forced to believe otherwise, I'm under the opinion that this is only true in the stories. She's callous because it's fiction. I'm pretty cruel to my characters too.

No real motive is a little disappointing, but it's better than Yasu killing people on R--Prime and Battler apologizing to her for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem like there's any mention of Maria in there either.

Kind of surprising, since she's pretty obviously an accomplice as well. I think most people assume Maria locked the door of the parlor for twilights 6-8 of EP1, though you could also say that Beatrice simply hid in the room or something.
This was really disappointing to me because I felt like Maria was being built up as so important for a long time. I wanted to see a little of that here. There's plenty of evidence for Maria being used as an accomplice in some way and I think it would be interesting to read about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So the setting of EP5 is probably Yasu trying to get her revenge against Natsuhi.
If you can have a game where Lion was accepted by Natsuhi, you can also have this kind of game.
That's how I see it. It's a game without love, what Yasu's motive for all this might be if she wasn't trying to get Battler to remember their conversations on mysteries. The murder game is half-assed and the focus is entirely on hurting Natsuhi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I have to agree that I can't possibly sympathise with Yasu if this is the actual solution, but everything R07 has done since Episode 6 seems to insist that it is. =/
I can sympathize with writing people into some pretty screwed up stories, because I certainly did that when I was younger. I get that Ryukishi wants to keep R-Prime as catbox, but it's hard to feel for any potential culprit, since they either have no motive or, in the case of the Ep. 7 tea party, were shown to have the worst of motives.

I can't say I sympathize with the culprit of Higurashi but I was given a pretty clear understanding of why they did what they did. It's so frustrating not to have that here. I don't mind not knowing the how did it because I can figure that out myself. I can only throw out random guesses when it comes to the motive. And I refuse to believe that it is "girls in love are crazy, ya'll".
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Old 2012-01-01, 10:32   Link #26774
ErenselTheJester
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Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
But you know what i think you got it wrong.
Well, you don't have to worry about it now because...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swigun View Post
Spoiler for various spoiler:
And with that, I shall yield my case and submit that I now believe that ShKanon is the superior answer as spoken by Ryukishi07 himself.

However, I'm stubborn, and I don't just want to believe in ShKanon without it being put to the test. When I come back from church, I'll have a full detailed theory of what happened, and I should have about 90% of it correct.

In fact, I'll do some of it right now since I have it. Bear in mind though that some of this stuff has probably been said, so if you want to read it please have patience and ignore any redundancy.

EP1- Maria Meets Beatrice:
Spoiler for Spoiler:


Spoiler for My Answers to EP1:
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Old 2012-01-01, 11:02   Link #26775
Jan-Poo
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Well... since the accomplice in EP2 is obviously Rosa and since the inevitable consequence of that is that she was the very person who placed the letter in the guestroom in the end, I think the easiest explanation for the letter in EP1 is that Natsuhi herself placed it. Natsuhi as an accomplice in EP1 would explain many things.

Still Hideyoshi is pretty much a confirmed accomplice of EP1. Natsuhi and Hideyoshi sounds odd as a couple.

The booklet says that only Genji knew that people were going to die for real, but how could Nanjo be fooled then? You'd have to think that none of the persons he inspected were actually dead. Or that he's completely incompetent.
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Old 2012-01-01, 11:49   Link #26776
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First of all: a huge thank you for the summary. I was supposed to add it to my previous post but somehow when I copypasted it I skipped the first sentence. -_-

Personally I still think the motive behind the murders is pretty weak, even for a story/game/meta.

Since I hope this is just a story though and not a real plan of what Yasu wanted to do I hope the 'killing' was done merely to off the pieces that weren't Shannon or Kanon so that Beato could reply with red, 'yes, they're dead'.

Hoverwise there's a huge difference behind the murders done by Beato and the ones done by...
Spoiler for Spoilers about Higurashi:


Yasu... was just waiting for Battler. While owning gold, having a decent job, being friend with Jessica, going to school like an ordinary gold, dating George who loved her, being friend with Maria, being cared for by Kumasawa and Genji and so on, being able to contact Battler if she really wanted to. Battler who had a perfectly reasonable reason to not show up on Rokkenjima.

She's not in a live or die situation nor are the people she should have cared about and she's not threatened or feels as such.

It's fine if she wanted to murder everyone in a story like Jessica sort of wanted to do in that side story (okay, she just wanted to kill the prince and possibly his aides but still...) but not in reality.

Personally I hope the truth on Rokkenjima Prime is that the island went KABOOM for some sort of incident and Yasu's mystery tales were written without planning to put them in action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
jjblue: That's an interesting theory. But then, why were George and Nanjo killed? The epitaph murders were already complete with Krauss and Natsuhi.
Well, if Eva didn't solve the epitaph on her own but was made solve it (Eva insists she's not EvaBeatrice and we know she didn't commit all the murder EvaBeatrice committed so maybe this is a hint that Eva didn't really solved the epitaph, Beatrice handed her the solution [as suggested in EP 4... though there it was said Kinzo handed her the solution]) technically the epitaph murder doesn't have to stop... in fact EvaBeatrice continued it in the game.

Now... there's a problem with the last twilights as everyone is supposed to die but since Eva knows about the secret passage now she could escape through it with Battler, Jessica and Nanjo because she could realize Betrice isn't just fake-killing people.
So people need to be offed before the bomb would go Kaboom.
However Eva snapped and killed Battler and possibly Yasu (prior or after Yasu managed to kill Jessica) then escaped.

Though this is a tentative theory so it can have logic errors...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well... since the accomplice in EP2 is obviously Rosa and since the inevitable consequence of that is that she was the very person who placed the letter in the guestroom in the end, I think the easiest explanation for the letter in EP1 is that Natsuhi herself placed it. Natsuhi as an accomplice in EP1 would explain many things.

Still Hideyoshi is pretty much a confirmed accomplice of EP1. Natsuhi and Hideyoshi sounds odd as a couple.

The booklet says that only Genji knew that people were going to die for real, but how could Nanjo be fooled then? You'd have to think that none of the persons he inspected were actually dead. Or that he's completely incompetent.
I'll say if Hideyoshi was in then Eva was in also. Maybe however Eva and Hideyoshi didn't know Natsuhi was also an accomplice.

As for Genji knowing people would die for real... well, personally I'm disgusted by Genji. Lets say Yasu went insane due to her love for Battler.
Genji accepting she could kill the siblings who he knows from when they were kids, innocent people like Kumasawa and Gohda and the cousins who never did anything wrong... well, that's disgusting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
To answer Von Himmel, I think that the metaworld is a place where belief is everything.

If you believe in magic, magic can kill you, if you don't believe in magic, it's completley harmless.
In EP4 Meta-Beatrice tried to erase Meta-Battler simply by questioning his existence. If Meta-Battler lost his sense of self he'd disappear.

Apprenlty even red truths cannot defy this. If you don't believe in them, they simply cannot "hurt" you. In the end Ange chose "magic" over "truth", at that point no truth could ever hurt her. That's what Battler has been trying to teach her the whole way, and that's what Ange in the magic end tries to teach to the children of the world.


P.S: I don't think that's a good thing
I like to think/hope Ange choose 'hope' though the game called it magic.
Since hope had a low chance to become reality and realism seem to say no one would come back her hope is like magic.

Sort of like Bern calls miracle something that is actually no miracle since there's a probability it'll happen only it's really low.
A miracle is technically something that shouldn't have a probability to happen yet happened.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-01-01 at 12:21.
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Old 2012-01-01, 11:51   Link #26777
Misuzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well... since the accomplice in EP2 is obviously Rosa and since the inevitable consequence of that is that she was the very person who placed the letter in the guestroom in the end, I think the easiest explanation for the letter in EP1 is that Natsuhi herself placed it. Natsuhi as an accomplice in EP1 would explain many things.

Still Hideyoshi is pretty much a confirmed accomplice of EP1. Natsuhi and Hideyoshi sounds odd as a couple.

The booklet says that only Genji knew that people were going to die for real, but how could Nanjo be fooled then? You'd have to think that none of the persons he inspected were actually dead. Or that he's completely incompetent.

Wasn't Natsuhi supposed to have been killed on the first Twilight in episode one? My understanding was that Yasu went in her room to kill her, then realized that the charm was on the door and had to make alternate plans. Based on that I'd think she couldn't have been an accomplice, at least not initially.

And yes LyricalAura, thank you very much! Apologies for not saying thank you immediately, I think I was too excited.
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Old 2012-01-01, 11:56   Link #26778
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Mkay, I'm avoiding this thread for spoilers just in case, but I have to ask. Does Our Confessions solve pretty much everything? Or is it a series of answers that can be projected on each episode? Or what?
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Old 2012-01-01, 12:11   Link #26779
Drifloon
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Natsuhi doesn't need to be an accomplice in Episode 1, and I don't see any evidence for it either. The letters can all be placed by either the servants or Yasu/Beatrice herself. I agree that Hideyoshi/Eva are the accomplices in that episode.

Actually, in Episode 2, when Beatrice talks to Rosa, she said it could have been any of the siblings...Based on that, I think that she picks one of the siblings to be her accomplice in each game.

EP1: Eva (and by extension Hideyoshi)
EP2: Rosa
EP3: Eva again

In EP4 it seems like just about everyone is in on the fake murder mystery plan except the cousins (and they probably get told about it when they go for their tests). Yasu probably just kills everyone right at the end and arranges their bodies according to the fictional story. In EP5 it's probably Krauss since she's able to get him to talk to Natsuhi on the phone.

By the way, jjblue, it would be nice if you could hide that Higurashi spoiler. I haven't finished Higurashi yet and while I averted my eyes quickly, I think I did catch who the culprit was from what you were saying there.
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Old 2012-01-01, 12:15   Link #26780
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solachinx View Post
Mkay, I'm avoiding this thread for spoilers just in case, but I have to ask. Does Our Confessions solve pretty much everything? Or is it a series of answers that can be projected on each episode? Or what?
So far it seems to be a story that gives you a better insight on how the obvious culprit managed to put her plan into motion. But there hasn't been anything major so far, just a confirmation to an already known theory, many questions still remain unanswered.


Quote:
Wasn't Natsuhi supposed to have been killed on the first Twilight in episode one? My understanding was that Yasu went in her room to kill her, then realized that the charm was on the door and had to make alternate plans. Based on that I'd think she couldn't have been an accomplice, at least not initially.
That reminds me the scene that bothered me the most in EP1. That dialogue Battler listens to between Kanon, Kumasawa and Genji makes absolutely no sense unless they knew Battler was listening. But how did they know?
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