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Old 2012-01-01, 12:23   Link #26781
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
By the way, jjblue, it would be nice if you could hide that Higurashi spoiler. I haven't finished Higurashi yet and while I averted my eyes quickly, I think I did catch who the culprit was from what you were saying there.
I apologize, I was so caught up in the whole thing I forgot. I put it under a spoiler cut now.

Many apologies again.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So far it seems to be a story that gives you a better insight on how the obvious culprit managed to put her plan into motion. But there hasn't been anything major so far, just a confirmation to an already known theory, many questions still remain unanswered.
Personally for me it doesn't look as something so shockingly surprising Ryukishi couldn't put it in a standard story format but well, as I haven't read it yet, I'll wait before giving a definitive judgement. After all I've apprecciated Umineko a lot more after reading the end of EP 8 than before when I just knew the summaries.
And I'm glad it confirmed some thories I had but really I'm sad about the motive or lack thereoff.

I'm unsatisfied with the one given in EP 7 so I was hoping for something more... -_-

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That reminds me the scene that bothered me the most in EP1. That dialogue Battler listens to between Kanon, Kumasawa and Genji makes absolutely no sense unless they knew Battler was listening. But how did they know?
You've a point. Maybe they caught him going to the bathroom and carefuly waited for him to come back. As they heard his steps they began making the discussion.

... though yes, it feels a little forced... like people not realizing that people are faking their dead or that they're dead for real...
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Old 2012-01-01, 12:39   Link #26782
Drifloon
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Well, before Our Confession, I thought that Yasu's three personalities did seriously consider themselves separate entities, and Genji/Kumasawa probably knew about this. So when Kanon talks to them about Beatrice, I thought he was seriously asking them why they think Beatrice killed the Shannon personality off. There are tons of scenes that show Yasu's personalities 'conversing' with each other, presumably in their minds, and so on. Likewise, at points like the time Kanon discovers the circle on the shutter, I always thought that he was genuinely surprised because he'd only just gained control of Yasu's body, and wasn't aware when Beatrice when painting the circle.

But Our Confession seems to completely kill that theory, which is sad. A lot of scenes have to be dismissed as lies because of that.
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Old 2012-01-01, 13:06   Link #26783
Renall
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Regarding the incomplete story in OC...
Spoiler for Our Confessions etc.:
Another thing the story points out is something... um... problematic.
Spoiler:
Actually there's another major problem.
Spoiler:
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Old 2012-01-01, 13:06   Link #26784
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I am just shocked... *SHOCKED*... that Ryukishi managed to introduced yet *another* new character. He just won't stop, will he? 8)

So, where are the fan pics of Fura-chan? :3
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Old 2012-01-01, 13:13   Link #26785
Renall
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By the way, my new operating theory for why Genji's motives are completely inscrutable in the stories:

Yasu didn't actually know very much about him at all.

It kind of makes sense. Genji's job probably required he keep a stiff upper lip and most of what he'd do was related to stuff Kinzo was telling him to do. Decades of that kind of attitude probably kept him a mystery to the lesser servants, and he wasn't open with her the way Kumasawa was.

So in the stories, he's just used as a narrative tool, because so little was known about him by the author that she had only his public persona and archetype to work with. So he was made into a stock character and baseline accomplice.

And of course Battler/Tohya wouldn't know anything about him either, and would glean even less from the message bottles, leaving the man a complete blank.

EDIT: Obviously this I think means that in any R-Prime, Genji could not be counted on necessarily to be some robotic murder accomplice. But we don't know what he actually would have done.
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Old 2012-01-01, 13:13   Link #26786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Regarding the incomplete story in OC...
Spoiler for Our Confessions etc.:
Another thing the story points out is something... um... problematic.
Spoiler:
Actually there's another major problem.
Spoiler:
Suddenly, i want a kakera where everyone realizes what's going on and slaps Yasu for his shit.
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Old 2012-01-01, 13:17   Link #26787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
his
YASU IS SHE. Lol. Sorry i wont accept yasu being boy
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Old 2012-01-01, 13:18   Link #26788
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I want to see Krauss go "Really? You plan to blow up MY island? Bitch, I had plans to colonize the moon, Im on a level of crazy that you cant even comprehend! *Punches her out*
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Old 2012-01-01, 13:22   Link #26789
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Well, I mean obviously it's a story so things will work out as the author intended. But on the other hand, I can't really forgive flimsy motivations or a weak conclusion, which this forgery draft sort of has.
Spoiler:
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Old 2012-01-01, 13:23   Link #26790
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Actually there's another major problem.
Spoiler:
Well, Yasu didn't exactly have a plan that covered the possibility George would go and see Shannon's face inside the gardening shed in EP1 either. Maybe she once again went with the 'Whatever, if my plan must be wrecked so be it, fate, roulettes and all that jazz.'

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Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
Suddenly, i want a kakera where everyone realizes what's going on and slaps Yasu for his shit.
Trust me, back then I believed this was going to be the case in EP8.
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Old 2012-01-01, 13:24   Link #26791
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So if Shannon goes to all the trouble of arranging her own demise, we'd have to assume that the character is really dead, unlike Kanon whose part was just fakery. I'm assuming Piece-Beatrice isn't a separate human character because that would violate the rules.

So... what was the plan after this? Just let everybody explode?
Well, yes. The concept of the game was to see whether the group could solve the epitaph before the epitaph murders were complete. Since the eighth twilight had been reached, the group had already lost, so the explosion was inevitable. The ninth and tenth twilights will be carried out whatever Shannon/Beatrice does, so she can commit suicide without breaking the rules of the game.

Quote:
And if Krauss and Natsuhi find Shannon dead and realize she definitely actually is, what stops them from being like "Holy fuck, she threatened us if we didn't cooperate! We're going to explode, we gotta get the hell out of here!"
Remember when George, Gohda and Shannon were found dead in Natsuhi's room near the end of EP2? This is exactly the same situation. Shannon killed herself after all the murders were complete. In EP2, Rosa presumably didn't realise Shannon's suicide was not a fake, because she had no chance to closely examine the scene. She was constantly telling the others to leave the scene for the police, so nobody could realise that the victims were faking their deaths. So she had no way of checking Shannon's death. That meant that she continued the farce until the very end, where, after a few hours without any contact by Beatrice and the time of the promised explosion nearing, she panicked and tried to escape from the island with Maria. We can assume that the same thing happened here; Krauss and Natsuhi were telling everyone to leave the scene for the police, and so they didn't realise Shannon's death was not faked.

Quote:
Surely they're not so stupid that they don't realize Shkanon is happening as accomplices privy to a plan that involves switching the roles.
No, the accomplices definitely know Shannon=Kanon. After all, the accomplices in EP4 knew, or this couldn't have happened:



So we can assume the accomplices in this case know as well.
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Old 2012-01-01, 13:38   Link #26792
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Well, Yasu didn't exactly have a plan that covered the possibility George would go and see Shannon's face inside the gardening shed in EP1 either. Maybe she once again went with the 'Whatever, if my plan must be wrecked so be it, fate, roulettes and all that jazz.'
Except this is a story, so whether George might do this is entirely within the author's control. Explaining it away as "had he done this the whole thing would've been wrecked, and I gave him no particular motive not to do this, but luckily he didn't!" is pretty weak.

There was never actually any chance of George seeing Shannon's face, or Battler groping her breasts, because the author didn't allow that to happen. But neither did she adequately provide appropriate motivation for them not to do the things that they ended up not doing.

In contrast I'd look at ep4 or something. The kids are under the impression that if they leave the guesthouse their parents will be in danger, so Battler does not risk it. Very little would be endangered if George were to step inside the shed and look for Shannon, and he has reason to want to do it, but he basically doesn't and it's weird. Battler has a reason not to immediately rush outside, so he doesn't and it's perfectly understandable.
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Remember when George, Gohda and Shannon were found dead in Natsuhi's room near the end of EP2? This is exactly the same situation. Shannon killed herself after all the murders were complete. In EP2, Rosa presumably didn't realise Shannon's suicide was not a fake, because she had no chance to closely examine the scene. She was constantly telling the others to leave the scene for the police, so nobody could realise that the victims were faking their deaths. So she had no way of checking Shannon's death. That meant that she continued the farce until the very end, where, after a few hours without any contact by Beatrice and the time of the promised explosion nearing, she panicked and tried to escape from the island with Maria. We can assume that the same thing happened here; Krauss and Natsuhi were telling everyone to leave the scene for the police, and so they didn't realise Shannon's death was not faked.
Except she's shot in the head. This was basically true of ep2 as well. You have to be really committed to believing this is all a gag, especially since Krauss and Natsuhi, unlike the servant accomplices, actually do know that real murder is happening. The only accomplices left in the chapel are themselves and presumably Nanjo. How hard would it be to flip on the game now? Nanjo can't possibly do anything and, if she's faking, Shannon is helpless to be apprehended. I'm sure Krauss didn't enjoy his siblings and their spouses all being murdered, he's not going to consider the prospect?

I mean, at least Rosa had the excuse of knowing that Genji was out there, still alive, even if Shannon was really dead. She could still be afraid for that reason.

But we're given no particular direction here on how anybody would act, just that the script would call for them to go back and find Kanon missing... something Krauss and Natsuhi already know about. At what point do they realize that shit is bananas?

Again it's not that I have a problem with them falling for it in the story but that I don't understand why the characters would continue to be motivated to participate when they have an opportunity and every possible drive to fight back. Beatrice has no leverage at the moment of Shannon's death in this manuscript.
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Old 2012-01-01, 13:42   Link #26793
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Well, I mean obviously it's a story so things will work out as the author intended. But on the other hand, I can't really forgive flimsy motivations or a weak conclusion, which this forgery draft sort of has.
Spoiler:
It sorts of confirm the idea that Yasu is Ikuko because she needed Toya to become a good writer.
I like the idea that if Toya or Battler were to read this draft they would make corrections to George being left wandering on his own, Genji's apparently robotic behaviour, the culprit having a weak motive and everyone letting himself be threatened despite all the Ushiromiya can be pretty dangerous.

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Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
Suddenly, i want a kakera where everyone realizes what's going on and slaps Yasu.
Maybe not really having people get violent against her but well, I'll apprecciate if someone were to notice they've an insane maid running around...


... and I've been wondering if I can take the lack of Battler's action as a confirmation that Battler's part was left mostly blanck so he could fill it up should he feel like moving his piece during the game.
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Old 2012-01-01, 13:54   Link #26794
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This is my pick only but, I think that "mystery" is easier to solve then it seems... it just creates a stupid story. Maybe I'm wrong, but I sorta think this is ultimately what the 10 tons of gold is for. Over the course of the arcs, nearly everyone (or maybe even everyone) lied about things that are really absurd to lie about and we never really got any satisfying answer for that.

I think it pretty much goes to "on the fantasy side, they do not lie" and "on the mystery side, you have 10 tons of gold to make anyone lie any ways you want".
Sure it creates a stupid and horrible story as a result, but the "good story" was always the fantasy narrative.
Overall I think whenever we reach the conclusion that Ryuukishi made a stupid story (mystery wise) it's because it was actually meant to be that ridiculous from the first point, so we'd end up accepting fantasy after solving the mystery.



Ah and also, I've reached the conclusion that arc 2's ending (when Beato tortures Rosa) and arc 7 Tea Party are pretty much two variations of the same thing.
Arc 2 end was there to ensure Battler wouldn't accept fantasy.
Arc 7 TP was to ensure Ange wouldn't accept mystery.
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Old 2012-01-01, 14:22   Link #26795
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Thanks for the translation work, LyricalAura.

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I think what we learned is that being furniture means you don't have to have motives for doing things other than "the author in a higher dimension thinks it'll make an interesting story." So the reason we can't figure out a plausible motive for Yasu to kill her whole family in R-Prime could easily be that she didn't actually have one, and therefore didn't do it.
Bump.
This is an interesting idea and I don't want to see it get buried.

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Again it's not that I have a problem with them falling for it in the story but that I don't understand why the characters would continue to be motivated to participate when they have an opportunity and every possible drive to fight back. Beatrice has no leverage at the moment of Shannon's death in this manuscript.
It's just random speculation, but what if they do not realize that Beatrice is Shannon?? Like, they meet Yasu in a really convincing Beatrice costume and believe her to be a 19th person.
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Old 2012-01-01, 14:26   Link #26796
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Except this is a story, so whether George might do this is entirely within the author's control. Explaining it away as "had he done this the whole thing would've been wrecked, and I gave him no particular motive not to do this, but luckily he didn't!" is pretty weak.

There was never actually any chance of George seeing Shannon's face, or Battler groping her breasts, because the author didn't allow that to happen. But neither did she adequately provide appropriate motivation for them not to do the things that they ended up not doing.
I'm not sure what you're complaining about here. If Yasu HAD been found out, then of course she would have given in and accepted her defeat. At that point, any further plans she had would be ceased. She intentionally left points at which her crime might fall apart because she wanted the game to be fair - meaning that there must be a decent chance for her to lose. Obviously, that doesn't happen in any of her message bottles that lay out possible paths the crime might take, because if she was found out, those plans would stop.

Quote:
Except she's shot in the head. This was basically true of ep2 as well. You have to be really committed to believing this is all a gag, especially since Krauss and Natsuhi, unlike the servant accomplices, actually do know that real murder is happening.
Uh......no they don't.

Piece-Beatrice explains that she won't make them help commit any weird crimes. She just wants to put on a performance to entertain a certain person. They have a relationship founded on enjoying and arguing about mystery novels, so she wants to celebrate his return after 6 years by putting on a mystery for him.

Beato says that Krauss and Natsuhi's roles will be to act as characters in Piece-Beatrice's play and follow her scenario


Krauss and Natsuhi definitely did not think anyone was actually being killed.

As for the thing about them not noticing Shannon's death: what would you think in that situation? I don't know about you, but I'd definitely assume that it's just some really convincing make-up and she's not actually dead, because the alternative - that she's been deceiving you about the corpses being faked and she actually has been murdering your whole family with your help - is just too horrifying to seriously consider.
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Old 2012-01-01, 14:32   Link #26797
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It's just random speculation, but what if they do not realize that Beatrice is Shannon?? Like, they meet Yasu in a really convincing Beatrice costume and believe her to be a 19th person.
I've also considered it. If Shannon introduced herself (or even better was introduced by Genji) saying she's Beatrice while wearing a blond wig and contacts and acting differently people could be fooled into thinking she's someone else.

Timid Shannon versus confident Beato can surely strike a contrast.
What I'm problems believing, which is also the reason why I believe Shkannon but I hate it, is no one noticing Shannon and Kanon have the same face.
They have the same face and they claim they're not related!
It should strike as odd, someone should mention how Kanon looks like Shannon or vice versa, especially since Shannon tosses in they're not siblings, but no, people compliment on Shannon's look (which mean they looked at her) but no one pays attention to the grumpy boy even if they recognize him first sight (which either mean he's the only boy who had ever worked at the Ushiromiya or that they looked at him and took note of his name).

Hell, not even Erika with her amazing powers noticed they've the same face... -_-
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Old 2012-01-01, 14:53   Link #26798
unsuspectingvisitor
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Suddenly, i want a kakera where everyone realizes what's going on and slaps Yasu for his shit.
I think you just touch the answer to what happened in Rokkenjima prime. just think about it we also got this in Higurashi.
Spoiler for higurashi spoiler don't click if you don't know the answer:
If Battler solved the epitaph in the real Rokkenjima, It's possible that he stopped Yasu from killing anyone. So in the end, nothing really happened in the real rokkenjima.
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Old 2012-01-01, 14:57   Link #26799
Renall
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It's just random speculation, but what if they do not realize that Beatrice is Shannon?? Like, they meet Yasu in a really convincing Beatrice costume and believe her to be a 19th person.
Well then they're written into a story to be incredibly stupid. Also they're aware of Shkanon, but not that Shkanon is also Beatrice? That doesn't bother them in any way?

It's just really bad writing on Meta-Beatrice's part. I mean it sort of sums up as akin to:

"My plan will be to get everything planned out in advance, even though I have no way of knowing exactly how this will work out ahead of time. I'll bribe any and all accomplices and assure them that it's a fake murder game, but I'll also threaten them so they know I'm willing and able to commit real murder because I know this won't motivate them to suspect me in any way of exploiting my own 'game.' With their willing participation I'll make absolutely sure that everything goes perfectly for me up to and including killing five or more perfectly healthy adults without anyone being able to properly struggle or stop me. Then I'll arrange a series of murders that include having to fake-kill myself multiple times and then real-kill myself. However, I am confident that at no time will anyone I'm not watching over and controlling accidentally stumble upon me doing stuff, nor will my coerced co-conspirators even consider flipping on me out of fear for their safety or the safety of others or simply to screw me over out of spite or greed, especially during those moments where I will have absolutely no control over them or any leverage. And nobody will just run away in a panic into the woods or anything."

As a murder story it comes together without plot holes, but as a well-planned narrative it stretches plausibility even for its own genre.

EDIT: And I should point out, a plan going awry and then being fixed or improvised on by the culprit makes for a more interesting and exciting mystery, and makes the culprit more interesting and credible. If Piece-Beatrice has bad or wildly unpredictable plans, then she should be written in such a way that she is good at adapting them. An example of this would be if it turned out Hideyoshi and Eva were not being good accomplices in Legend and had to quickly be killed off before they tried to turn on Beatrice, and then incorporated into the plan. That way we'd at least see how good Beatrice is at adapting to her coercive methods not always working perfectly.
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This story is a redacted confession.

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Last edited by Renall; 2012-01-01 at 15:08.
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Old 2012-01-01, 15:10   Link #26800
Jan-Poo
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That reminds me... if only a few selected adults are accomplices then how the hell I can explain the fact that everyone recognizes Kanon? The best way I could get around this problem is by saying that the only one who is fooled is Battler, it wouldn't be that unreasonable then. He wouldn't go out and think that they are the same person even if he noticed similarities between them.

But Natsuhi and Krauss?!


For what concerns Renall's point. Well the first one isn't anything new, I mean that's what you can get from Ryuukishi's interview. Basically that's it, there were a lot of things that could go wrong in Yasu's plan, she was aware of that, but she was willing to let it happen without flinching a finger. That's why when Battler tries to grope her she just waits to be busted.
Clair in EP7 said that she entrusted everything to fate, Ryuukishi in the interview said that she wanted to be stopped. At least this behavior is consistent.

The problem here is the fact that everything goes fine (or bad?), well anything goes according to the plan. Which I'm one of the first to say that's lame, but considering what kind of story Ryuukishi took inspiration from... hell I can't honestly say that Agatha Christie did anything better.

But if you think deeper about it, you'll realize... wait a sec... it's not like everything went fine despite all the things that could go wrong... it's more like Yasu wrote them so they could go fine, and when she actually tried the real thing it failed!
I don't know if I'm supposed to laugh or cry.

As for Rosa, I suppose she either didn't realize that Shannon was really dead (I hope that's this one) or she didn't know Shannon was Beatrice (please no...). She did scream at Battler not to touch Shannon. I think it's possible that this was Ryuukishi's way to tell us that Rosa didn't want Battler to touch Shannon because else he'd find out she isn't really dead. "Our Confessions" mentions a similar situation I think.

Maybe after she drove Battler away as per plan, she went looking for Yasu to tell her that she had done everything she asked for, only to realize it was almost midnight and Yasu was nowhere to be found (or was dead). This however begs a question: what about the goddamn Battler? And what about Genji? I guess that Rosa desperately running to the harbour and telling Maria to swim to safety could somehow represent the part where Rosa tries to flee (wait... Rosa... why didn't you try to reach Kuwadorian instead, since you made it in the past? That seems like a better idea considering how stupid it's to think you can swim in the middle of a typhon with a 9 year old kid and a 10kg ingot in the purse), but what about Battler and Genji?!
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