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Old 2012-01-01, 15:18   Link #61
deathandstrawberry
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@ kafriel: i guess you're right about kubo.

this started as a very good manga, i hope they won't screw it up with too many unnecessary things.
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Old 2012-01-01, 15:32   Link #62
Haak
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Well as long as you're still enjoying it it can't really be seen as filler even if there is a lack of series momentum.

Or rather, the lack of continuous series momentum is only a bad thing from perspective. If the lack of it is not a problem to enjoying it, then it's not really a problem.
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Old 2012-01-02, 06:45   Link #63
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We have the benefit of characters specifically saying he was dead which we could interpret as exposition. Naturally you don't have the privilege due to your insane belief that characters could "simply be lying" in order to explain retcons so thats kinda come back to bite you in the ass. Nevertheless, that's your problem. Not ours.


.
Who are you talking about? You qouted me but then you said a bunch of sh-t I have never said . Not my POV

The only established liar is Aizen (he's a damn good one at that) Because he's a liar it's NOT A RETCON. Simply because it's been established ahead of time that he lies. Hell his sword is a liar. He's a liar and tells half-truths in order to manipulate characters into doing what he wants them to do. He can be truthful when mind-screwing a person but it's usually after he said he lied or he bends the truth a little.

Otherwise I have never said that characters "simply be lying" I have said that they could be mistaken because a lot of them are. It has been shown over and over again. You guys claim everything you don't remember is a retcon. If it's a retcon I would say it but I haven't seen one yet

Just like people claim Kubo Retconned Tsukishima's powers and fullbringers in general and it's untrue. When you show me a retcon, then you talk smack until then. TALK TO THE HAND


I find that most of times. The things that Kubo does actually comes back and bites you in the ass. Not me....


Oh god, I can't breathe....you really crack me up sometimes, you know that

Please stop it before I die from a lack of air....I need my asthma pump


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Old 2012-01-02, 08:04   Link #64
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Well...am I a fan of Tsukishima? No, I personally hate every character introduced in this arc except Riruka. Yet I still say that you CANNOT say that Tsukishima is dead for sure. Not because I'm fanboygasming but because we don't have any proof that he IS dead. I hate to repeat myself but...unless the author confirms it through a character, narration or databook (or some other source outside the manga) then you cannot state that he is dead as a pure fact. You can assume all you want since it's your opinion but facts and assumptions are completely different things.

LoP...I personally think that the reason some users focus on you is because of the overwhelming sense of superiority you give of in your posts. It feels like you think you are above everyone else. This sense of superiority is usually found in trolls, and makes people want to contradict them to bring them down a peg. Then again, that could just be my opinion...
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Old 2012-01-02, 09:06   Link #65
Haak
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Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium View Post
Who are you talking about? You qouted me but then you said a bunch of sh-t I have never said . Not my POV

The only established liar is Aizen (he's a damn good one at that) Because he's a liar it's NOT A RETCON. Simply because it's been established ahead of time that he lies. Hell his sword is a liar. He's a liar and tells half-truths in order to manipulate characters into doing what he wants them to do. He can be truthful when mind-screwing a person but it's usually after he said he lied or he bends the truth a little.
No it hasn't. We can't be sure he's telling the truth but there are times when he gives explanations that can reasonably be interpeted taken as exposition, at least in my opinion.

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Otherwise I have never said that characters "simply be lying" I have said that they could be mistaken because a lot of them are. It has been shown over and over again. You guys claim everything you don't remember is a retcon. If it's a retcon I would say it but I haven't seen one yet
That pretty much amounts to the same thing. In the end you can't ineterpet anything as Character Exposition because what they're saying could be false. Whether it's intentional (lying) or unintentional (misaken) makes no difference.

For example, Soul Society easily defeating the Espada is a retcon because we were led to believe that the "fact of the matter is that the Vasto Lorde's combat abilities are above that of our captains" (Chapter 197 Page 16) and we can interpret that as exposition but many of the those Vasto Lorde's were all killed by a single captain each. Contradicting something as exposition without clarifying why they were mistaken or giving an inadequate reason is assumed to be a retcon.

You don't believe that's a retcon because you simply believe that nothing can be taken as exposition. Thus, Kaien being said to have died can't be taken as exposition.

In short, you can't believe anything can be a retcon because any contradiction between what characters say is not a retcon by your definition. So it's impossible for us to prove to you that anything is a retcon in Bleach. That's why you haven't seen one yet.

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Just like people claim Kubo Retconned Tsukishima's powers and fullbringers in general and it's untrue. When you show me a retcon, then you talk smack until then. TALK TO THE HAND
I don't know why you're bringing this up since I don't believe Tsukishima's powers were retconned. If that's meant to be an illustration or some sort of proof, then it's evidently a very poor one. You're also making that hasty generelisation I repeatedly warned you not to.

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I find that most of times. The things that Kubo does actually comes back and bites you in the ass. Not me....
Really? Then I guess you won't mind giving me an example then.

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Oh god, I can't breathe....you really crack me up sometimes, you know that

Please stop it before I die from a lack of air....I need my asthma pump


Please don't flamebait. In any case this all besides the point. I explained why we could believe Kaien was dead without seeing him die. That was your main point and I addressed it.
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Old 2012-01-02, 09:46   Link #66
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people still say "talk to the hand?"

the sadness that fills my heart...
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Old 2012-01-02, 15:23   Link #67
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
For example, Soul Society easily defeating the Espada is a retcon because we were led to believe that the "fact of the matter is that the Vasto Lorde's combat abilities are above that of our captains" (Chapter 197 Page 16) and we can interpret that as exposition but many of the those Vasto Lorde's were all killed by a single captain each. Contradicting something as exposition without clarifying why they were mistaken or giving an inadequate reason is assumed to be a retcon.
this is what really turned me off to bleach. I mean, how could kubo not have known how these battles would play out when he first introduced the characters? and how could he not have known that he had no intention of killing off any good guys in the entire arc? it's really aggravating. the captains didnt show off any particularly new moves or training that would account for such a thing. a few of them didnt even go bankai. I guess the only explanation is that the vasto lordes didn't live up to their myth that had been circulating throughout SS but that's just dumb imo.
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Old 2012-01-02, 15:54   Link #68
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^^Can't say I disagree. But I feel Kubo began to set the precedent for this up a very long time ago (even before the SS arc officially began). *points to the gillians first intro*

And as far as retcons go, look no further than Rukia's power. From the time prior to losing her powers to the moment she got them back, she went from being normal hollow level fodder to being on par with an arrancarized-adjuchas out of nowhere and for no apparent reason. I can't think of a more obvious one than that.
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Old 2012-01-02, 16:33   Link #69
Haak
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^^Can't say I disagree. But I feel Kubo began to set the precedent for this up a very long time ago (even before the SS arc officially began). *points to the gillians first intro*.
It's fine at the start since it's just one or two (even a few is something you can get away with), but it really builds up in a long running series if you don't pay attention.
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Old 2012-01-02, 19:36   Link #70
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I just realize, Ichigo finally killed someone.
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Old 2012-01-02, 20:08   Link #71
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if the real purpose of this arc is to get ichigo his powers back, then why does kubo have to introduce fullbring when all it really took was a reiatsu-powered sword from ichigo's shinigami friends? he could have written an arc that would delve into isshin's past and how he lost his powers and regained them. or maybe even something about the soul king.
He introduced fullbring because that's the story he's telling. Haak would call that a doylist answer but that's the simple truth.

In the SS arc, Aizen set up that super-elaborate plan to have Rukia executed by the Soukyou just to extract the hougyoku from her only to reveal at the end of the arc that he had a device he could've used any time he wanted to effortlessly remove it from her. That pretty much made his earlier plan pointless and a complete waste of time, but not too many people cared. Aizen's scheme was the catalyst for all the events in the SS arc and upcoming events depended on Aizen getting the hougyoku, so Kubo made it happen. I'm not saying you should just handwave bad writing, just realize that if you decide to break apart any work of fiction and analyze how every thing fits together, you'll find some things happen purely for the sake of plot and it's not always seamless with logic.

Another thing is here that you don't just seem to be dissatisfied with the quality of the manga, you seem to dislike the fact that Kubo's not focusing on the story elements you're interested in. You say you don't care about mysteries not being answered right away, but also talk about how Kubo didn't write about the Isshin or the Spirit King. One thing I've noticed is that when readers grow dissatisfied with a story they used to find engaging, they start comparing it to how they would write it (the characters they'd focus on, the relationships they'd develop etc.) I'm not saying you're doing that, but you seem to be eager for Kubo to start writing about the things you want to see.



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For example, Soul Society easily defeating the Espada is a retcon because we were led to believe that the "fact of the matter is that the Vasto Lorde's combat abilities are above that of our captains" (Chapter 197 Page 16) and we can interpret that as exposition but many of the those Vasto Lorde's were all killed by a single captain each. Contradicting something as exposition without clarifying why they were mistaken or giving an inadequate reason is assumed to be a retcon.
Only Stark was truly defeated by a single captain (though Stark actually faced a grand total of 4 captain-level opponents in close combat and held his own). You can count Halibel too if you consider being temporarily trapped a "defeat" and Ulq if you consider Ichigonator to be merely captain-level.

Also, you didn't mention the rest, like how Histugaya said that the Gotei 13 short 3 captains would not be a match for 10 VL led by Aizen. In other words, Hitsu was talking about the Gotei 13 (w/ maybe Ichigo & his gang) facing Aizen and 10 VL. It's been confirmed Aizen did not have that number, while the Gotei 13 had a number of powerful allies Hitsugaya wasn't considering like the vizards, Urahara & Yourichi.

Even if you dismiss all that, calling this a retcon is a severe stretch because just saying that one warrior's combat abilities are greater is not any way saying that it's 100% that the superior fighter will win, or even that the better fighter will definitely win 6/10 times, it's just saying that one side has an advantage.


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And as far as retcons go, look no further than Rukia's power. From the time prior to losing her powers to the moment she got them back, she went from being normal hollow level fodder to being on par with an arrancarized-adjuchas out of nowhere and for no apparent reason. I can't think of a more obvious one than that.
The only time we saw Rukia fight at full power before D-Roy (who was stated to be among the weakest of his group) was against Fishbone and she lost then because Ichigo did something incredibly stupid and she had to save him. There was nothing ever indicating Rukia wasn't capable against normal hollows. Her comments on gillans did reveal that a shinigami her level was supposed to be no match against a gillian. Gillians/adjuchas were retconned to be VC-level opponents by the time the arrancar arc started. Rukia was just revealed to be more powerful what was shown before.

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I just realize, Ichigo finally killed someone.
Technically, he killed Ulq. Though this is the first time he's killed when in his right mind. And it was a human opponent. So I guess he's popped his killing cherry.
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Old 2012-01-02, 21:01   Link #72
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Only Stark was truly defeated by a single captain (though Stark actually faced a grand total of 4 captain-level opponents in close combat and held his own). You can count Halibel too if you consider being temporarily trapped a "defeat" and Ulq if you consider Ichigonator to be merely captain-level.
numbers 9-4 were all beaten/killed by 1 captain level shinigami as was wonderweiss. edit: well 9 was rukia, but that only makes it worse...

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Also, you didn't mention the rest, like how Histugaya said that the Gotei 13 short 3 captains would not be a match for 10 VL led by Aizen. In other words, Hitsu was talking about the Gotei 13 (w/ maybe Ichigo & his gang) facing Aizen and 10 VL. It's been confirmed Aizen did not have that number, while the Gotei 13 had a number of powerful allies Hitsugaya wasn't considering like the vizards, Urahara & Yourichi.
you're only beefing up one side. you also have to add in Gin, Tousen and wonderweiss to aizen's side
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Old 2012-01-02, 21:26   Link #73
sayde
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The only time we saw Rukia fight at full power before D-Roy (who was stated to be among the weakest of his group) was against Fishbone and she lost then because Ichigo did something incredibly stupid and she had to save him.
Its true. She did have to go out of her way to save him. But if she really was VC level at the time, then I find it hard to believe her only option to save Ichigo & his family involved recklessly taking Fishbone's attacks...twice. Hell, she had ample opportunity beforehand to finish him off instantly when Yuzu got captured. But instead of choosing to use her surprise opportunity to land an attack that would end the battle, she chooses to land a non-fatal blow instead. The second time she came to Ichigo's aid may not have even happened if she didn't put herself into such a bad position in the first place. Because (by her own admission) she was being careless and took a direct hit from fishbone which knocked her into a wall. That gave fishbone the chance he needed to attack Ichigo head-on. Aside from that, Rukia simply failed to demonstrate feats worthy of VC-level. Where was the shunpo? Where was the shikai? Or better yet, why not just her use vastly superior reiatsu to overwhelm fishbone? It's not like she was officially ranked as a VC or a Captain. So she wasn't bound by a limiter.

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There was nothing ever indicating Rukia wasn't capable against normal hollows. Her comments on gillans did reveal that a shinigami her level was supposed to be no match against a gillian.
Hence my point still stands IMO. The only rank below gillians and the rest of the menos are simply normal hollows--which are fodder. That's what I meant when I said she was "normal hollow level fodder". I didn't mean for it to sound like she was fodder *for* "normal level hollows". I only meant to imply that she was on their level. In other words, she proved capable of defeating them, but also proved capable of being defeated by them.

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Gillians/adjuchas were retconned to be VC-level opponents by the time the arrancar arc started. Rukia was just revealed to be more powerful than what was shown before.
Because her own comments w/ regards to the gillians placed her below their level at the time, I'll meet you halfway by suggesting that the retcon of Rukia's power and the gillians are directly connected and related to one another.

Last edited by sayde; 2012-01-02 at 21:59.
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Old 2012-01-02, 21:32   Link #74
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numbers 9-4 were all beaten/killed by 1 captain level shinigami as was wonderweiss. edit: well 9 was rukia, but that only makes it worse...

you're only beefing up one side. you also have to add in Gin, Tousen and wonderweiss to aizen's side
9-4 were vasto lorde? I don't remember that. 9 was gillian and at least 8-6 were adjuchas.

After that, I don't believe the manga ever said who was adjuchas or VL did it?
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Old 2012-01-02, 23:44   Link #75
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9-4 were vasto lorde? I don't remember that. 9 was gillian and at least 8-6 were adjuchas.

After that, I don't believe the manga ever said who was adjuchas or VL did it?
I was under the impression that being made into espada by aizen put them all at VL level at least. I could be wrong about that so let me know

edit: typos and clarification
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Old 2012-01-03, 00:14   Link #76
Sabaku Kyu
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numbers 9-4 were all beaten/killed by 1 captain level shinigami as was wonderweiss. edit: well 9 was rukia, but that only makes it worse...
Like Xagzan said, I was only talking about the Vastro Lorde. Only Ulquiorra and Halibel have been confirmed as VL. Barragan and Stark are both stronger, so it's safe assume they're VL as well. Yami is only said to be stronger in released form so not sure with him but it took two captains to bring him down anyway.

And Wonderweiss defeated by a single captain... yeah, freakin' captain Yamamoto. The most powerful shinigami in Soul Society's history. Yeesh...

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Aside from that, Rukia simply failed to demonstrate feats worthy of VC-level. Where was the shunpo? Where was the shikai? Or better yet, why not just her use vastly superior reiatsu to overwhelm fishbone? It's not like she was officially ranked as a VC or a Captain. So she wasn't bound by a limiter.
Shunpo and shikai were concepts that I think Kubo had not planned on introducing until later in the story. And even if that's not the case, the fact that she didn't use them doesn't mean she didn't know how. She didn't use any kidou either, though she had just demonstrated that she knew how earlier in the story.

As for overwhelming an enemy with reiatsu alone-- do you realize how insanely powerful you need to be to do that? Think about the characters that have demonstrated this ability. All of them have been captain-level. Rukia's good, but she's not a powerhouse.

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Hence my point still stands IMO. The only rank below gillians and the rest of the menos are simply normal hollows--which are fodder. That's what I meant when I said she was "normal hollow level fodder". I didn't mean for it to sound like she was fodder *for* "normal level hollows". I only meant to imply that she was on their level. In other words, she proved capable of defeating them, but also proved capable of being defeated by them.
Hmm ok, but what should be noted here is that hollows do not need to be menos in order to be dangerous to even stronger shinigami. Kaien's death was caused by a non-menos hollow yet he was a talented VC. It's not like shinigami capable of being a seated officer or VC automatically become invincible against hollows who aren't menos.
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Old 2012-01-03, 00:32   Link #77
itachi-san314
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Like Xagzan said, I was only talking about the Vastro Lorde. Only Ulquiorra and Halibel have been confirmed as VL. Barragan and Stark are both stronger, so it's safe assume they're VL as well. Yami is only said to be stronger in released form so not sure with him but it took two captains to bring him down anyway.
well until I get an answer to my previous question about espada being equal to vasto lorde level I can't be 100% certain about this, but consider the reveal in the manga chapter 197 about the amount of espada. right after hitsugaya explains his worry about aizen having 10 or more (pg 17) VL level hollow, we are hit with pg 18 and 19 where aizen says how many there are. if they are not vasto lorde level, then this makes no sense

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And Wonderweiss defeated by a single captain... yeah, freakin' captain Yamamoto. The most powerful shinigami in Soul Society's history. Yeesh...
this just further proves my point. since yama jii is so strong, what is all the fuss about? why be so scared of the VLs?
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Old 2012-01-03, 04:43   Link #78
Haak
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Only Stark was truly defeated by a single captain (though Stark actually faced a grand total of 4 captain-level opponents in close combat and held his own). You can count Halibel too if you consider being temporarily trapped a "defeat" and Ulq if you consider Ichigonator to be merely captain-level.
First of all most of the Espada were Vasto Lorde. Since most generally means more than half I think it's safe to assume that all Espada with at least a rank 6 and above were Vasto Lorde (if we don't count Yammy). That means the vasto Lorde were Grimmjow (defeated by a single captain), Luppi (defeated by a single captain and the fact that he was killed by Grimmjow so easily only makes things more confusing really), Nnoitra (killed by a single captain), Ulquiorra (Ichigonator doesn't count so I'll give you that), Hallibel (defeated by a single cpatin - the only reason she was released was because of Wonderweiss so yes that counts as a defeat), Barragan (admittedly was stroger than a captain) and Stark (the fact that he held his own against 4 captains is a pretty weak argument considering none of them went Bankai whilst he fully released. In the end he was pretty much defeated by a single captain and by his shikai).

Quote:
Also, you didn't mention the rest, like how Histugaya said that the Gotei 13 short 3 captains would not be a match for 10 VL led by Aizen. In other words, Hitsu was talking about the Gotei 13 (w/ maybe Ichigo & his gang) facing Aizen and 10 VL. It's been confirmed Aizen did not have that number, while the Gotei 13 had a number of powerful allies Hitsugaya wasn't considering like the vizards, Urahara & Yourichi.
This is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that he still said Vasto Lorde's were stronger than Captains. The majority of the Vasto Lorde's weren't really defeated in team battles. But if you're going to bring me down for "not mentioning the rest" what do the reckon the "20 brothers" bit from Aizen in the very last page was meant to imply? Because given the context and how they were just talking about how many Vasto Lorde's it would take to bring down Soul Society, I can only see it being interpreted in one way..

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Even if you dismiss all that, calling this a retcon is a severe stretch because just saying that one warrior's combat abilities are greater is not any way saying that it's 100% that the superior fighter will win, or even that the better fighter will definitely win 6/10 times, it's just saying that one side has an advantage.
No offense but this is a rather cheap fan wanking handwave. I already said that if the explanation is not good enough then it's still a retcon.
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Old 2012-01-03, 07:03   Link #79
sayde
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Shunpo and shikai were concepts that I think Kubo had not planned on introducing until later in the story. And even if that's not the case, the fact that she didn't use them doesn't mean she didn't know how.
I'd agree with that. But its still up to Kubo to explain Rukia's extremely poor performance later on if he's to avoid a retcon. Though admittedly, the comments she made upon encountering the gillians for the first time likely makes it very difficult to do that.

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Hmm ok, but what should be noted here is that hollows do not need to be menos in order to be dangerous to even stronger shinigami. Kaien's death was caused by a non-menos hollow yet he was a talented VC. It's not like shinigami capable of being a seated officer or VC automatically become invincible against hollows who aren't menos.
That particular instance probably wasn't the best example in the world. Because Metasutashia was revealed to be one of Aizen's modified hollows.
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Old 2012-01-03, 12:36   Link #80
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what do the reckon the "20 brothers" bit from Aizen in the very last page was meant to imply? Because given the context and how they were just talking about how many Vasto Lorde's it would take to bring down Soul Society, I can only see it being interpreted in one way..
yea, I don't even think it's really a question anymore. it's safe to assume all 20 were VL level. it's a typical "dun dun duuunnnn!" moment.

H: "if he has 10 or more we're doomed!"
A: "muahaha! I have 20!"

if people want to argue that only a select few of the espada were VL level because they were specifically spelled out in minute detail to be so, then they need to accordingly think that the manga makes no sense since they are dismissing this reveal entirely as just nonsense.
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