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Old 2012-01-01, 23:17   Link #26821
Jaden
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I don't understand why Yasu wouldn't just KEEP it as a pretend murder mystery rather than actually killing the people.
I'll talk about R-Prime now. S/he doesn't need to actually kill people for things to work out, but in the end Yasu is responsible for the tragedy. Beatrice takes responsibility for it and is shown as regretful in EP8. Somebody needs to turn on the bomb, even if another person did it, Yasu should have been able to keep it from happening easily. Even if it the detonator somehow went off because of a lightning bolt, an earthquake, a cat, or whatever, Yasu is still responsible because a sane person would have had the damn thing disarmed upon learning of it and inheriting the headship, so s/he must have been intending to blow up the island and kill people to begin with.

Whether Yasu would actually do all that gory stuff like in Our Confessions is questionable. But it is shown s/he is at least pretty crazy, proficient with guns and intends to kill people, so s/he might as well do it. Many people feel the motives are flimsy, I somewhat agree. RK07 says it's because we don't know love, I'll just believe him. XD

Whether other people committed murders or not doesn't absolve Yasu of guilt. Many things are pointing towards an additional culprit though, such as the existence of the two survivors and Ange's reaction to seeing the truth. I can't quite tell the truth though...

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So maybe we ascribe too much to the entity of "Yasu" sometimes.

Maybe we can think of any actions her body takes as being subdivided into Shannon, Kanon or Beato only and she never takes an action as "Yasu"?
Agreed, but it's a good catch-all term for the character.
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Old 2012-01-01, 23:28   Link #26822
AuraTwilight
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By the way, about the accomplice (or what I used to call the Key of the Twilight)
"Come with me in the twilight for a summer night for a while..."

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Well the main thing is, is there a form of DID where the different identities are *not* compartmentalized? It's usually been said that DID ends up with different personalities (and not personas) who cannot access the memories of other personalities.
Multiplicity communities have been developing the idea of "Median." While not yet recognized in official psychological circles, the idea is basically that there are a bunch of people who don't actually have multiple personalities, but have the sensation that they do without being an outright liar or pretender. The delusion of multiplicity, really. Some Medians might even be aware of their condition but can't "turn it off."
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Old 2012-01-01, 23:57   Link #26823
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
"Come with me in the twilight for a summer night for a while..."
aCk! This is not the first time I typed Twilight instead of Epitaph too... 8)

"I believe in fantasies invisible to me ... To the door of mystery and dignity... " Hmmm... :3

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Multiplicity communities have been developing the idea of "Median." While not yet recognized in official psychological circles, the idea is basically that there are a bunch of people who don't actually have multiple personalities, but have the sensation that they do without being an outright liar or pretender. The delusion of multiplicity, really. Some Medians might even be aware of their condition but can't "turn it off."
So it seems something like this is possible, in real life at least.

Anyways, I'm not entirely sure of this idea of a particular diagnosis in Ryukishi's head as I'm sure something would've been mentioned by now. In addition, a lot of what I read spoke of psychological trauma and not necessarily of physical trauma.

However, there was one particular thing that would make it lean towards DID. If Beatrice and Shannon's handwriting differs, perhaps that's a clue Ryukishi put in there some how. I remember the discussion about Beatrice's handwriting in Maria's diary and the bottled letters. There was only one mention, IIRC, regarding Shannon taking dictation for Kinzo's will in... EP2, I think? (But we never get to see it, of course, as it was a fantasy scene.)
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Old 2012-01-01, 23:59   Link #26824
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
aCk! This is not the first time I typed Twilight instead of Epitaph too... 8)

"I believe in fantasies invisible to me ... To the door of mystery and dignity... " Hmmm... :3
A lot of Kajiura songs are oddly appropriate to Umineko. Like Fiction.
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Old 2012-01-02, 02:15   Link #26825
kanketsu
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I was wondering, is there a flowchart/ timeline of events happened in Umineko? Some kind of visual guide that makes it easier to digest for simpletons like me (or those who are more "visual persons").

I'm tempted to build one, if there isn't already one(s). ^^
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Old 2012-01-02, 02:22   Link #26826
Kylon99
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Oliver constructed an Umineko timeline which is now only accurate up to EP6, I believe.
http://umineko.renai.ru/

We haven't seen Oliver around for awhile though, but his website is still up. 8)
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Old 2012-01-02, 02:39   Link #26827
Used Can
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It was nice to have a... second (third?) confirmation on the howdunnits and whodunnit.
As for the whydunnit, this uhhh... TIPs(?) once again reaffirmed Beatice's main motivation was to place a mystery before Battler, though that was Piece-Beato's motivation, which in turn was a Meta-Motive as well. So, we still get nothing for Rokkenjima Prime, but well, I guess by now it should be clear that trying to find out what happened there is a fool's errand.
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Old 2012-01-02, 02:44   Link #26828
kanketsu
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errr... is it my browser, or is the timeline actualy a little bit hard to navigate? I have problems scrolling the page vertically ^^;
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Old 2012-01-02, 04:29   Link #26829
ndqanh_vn
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I think Yasu's condition is too fictional to be pint point as any mental disorder. Heck, I'm not even sure how is Beatrice relationship to Shanon and Kanon's personas. Do Yasu's persona have same memories? Do they consider themselves as seperate people or just a complicated role-playing game to hide the frustration of a teenager with gender issues?

Personally I'm not interested one bit in Yasu anymore. Fictional or not, I think it's implied quite clear that she intend to at least blow up the island if nobody reaches the solution. Yes, the Higurashi culprit is crazy and all, but we are not supposed to sympathize to that person.

And her plan, well, I guess it made no sense at all...
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Old 2012-01-02, 04:37   Link #26830
Oblivion
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Originally Posted by kanketsu View Post
errr... is it my browser, or is the timeline actualy a little bit hard to navigate? I have problems scrolling the page vertically ^^;
Are you using Internet Explorer? It seems to have many problems. Just use Firefox or Chrome to fix that problem.
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Old 2012-01-02, 05:10   Link #26831
Used Can
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Yes, the Higurashi culprit is crazy and all, but we are not supposed to sympathize to that person..
wut...
The whole point of Miyo's backstory was to make her sympathetic.
The world isn't some black and white place.
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Old 2012-01-02, 05:40   Link #26832
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
So it seems something like this is possible, in real life at least.
Frankly I think that's more probable than DID, there's been many critics about this theorized disorder, and I wonder if it really exist at all, or if, more likely, the persons so diagnosed believe they are different persons and then simply "remove" the memories as in many other common disorders.

But at any rate, there's no need to look for some fancy disorder in Yasu's case. If we take the scene in the chapel at face value then that's clearly schizophrenia.

Even without that she fits the minimum required criteria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

-delusions
-hallucinations
-social disfunction
-persistent for more than six months

Schizophrenia is always your best bet when someone shows loss of contact with reality. And the serious belief to be different persons inside one body is basically that, especially if someone then spends her days talking to her other selfs. If you think schizophrenia is too much for Yasu's case then there's this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychot...wise_specified

Which I guess that fits because Ryuukishi isn't really an expert on the field to make a disorder match with anything known. But the point here is that Yasu's disorder is generally reconductible to a form a psychosis.
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Old 2012-01-02, 05:55   Link #26833
Swigun
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Now the problem is: In Rokkenjima Prime did she really try to stage the murders? Or they were all merely tales and Rokkenjima was destroyed due to an incident unrelated to her?

That's something only Ryukishi knows.
I think it's the second one.
Spoiler for Episode 8:
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Old 2012-01-02, 06:05   Link #26834
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
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I think it went more like this.

Battler says she hasn't committed any sins in "our world" (Btw Usagi, doesn't this confirm that there is indeed a Rokkenjima Prime? At least the concept exists) with the probable meaning: "you didn't kill anyone"

Beatrice answers that it's not true, and I believe she thinks about a different sin than killing.
And this could be anything from lying to being the indirect cause of the tragedy.
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Old 2012-01-02, 06:35   Link #26835
AuraTwilight
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Of course, "our world" could be another Forgery, since it's implied that Featherine wrote it up in their honor.
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Old 2012-01-02, 07:02   Link #26836
Jan-Poo
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But that would sound quite dickish from Battler.

One thing is if he's implying: "you only killed people in fantasy, never in the real world". That's quite a valid argument.

Another thing is if he's saying that she only killed people in equally real (or unreal) worlds.

That's if they said:

Beatrice: I have killed countless people all around the world!
Battler: But you never killed anyone in this country!

That has a completely different ring to it.
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Old 2012-01-02, 09:09   Link #26837
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think it went more like this.

Battler says she hasn't committed any sins in "our world" (Btw Usagi, doesn't this confirm that there is indeed a Rokkenjima Prime? At least the concept exists) with the probable meaning: "you didn't kill anyone"

Beatrice answers that it's not true, and I believe she thinks about a different sin than killing.
And this could be anything from lying to being the indirect cause of the tragedy.
IIRC, there's a discussion between Beato and Ange near the beginning of the episode where she implies that she considers her one real sin to be hurting Ange with her stories. Could that be what she's talking about here?
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Old 2012-01-02, 12:51   Link #26838
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But at any rate, there's no need to look for some fancy disorder in Yasu's case. If we take the scene in the chapel at face value then that's clearly schizophrenia.

Even without that she fits the minimum required criteria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

-delusions
-hallucinations
-social disfunction
-persistent for more than six months

Schizophrenia is always your best bet when someone shows loss of contact with reality. And the serious belief to be different persons inside one body is basically that, especially if someone then spends her days talking to her other selfs. If you think schizophrenia is too much for Yasu's case then there's this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychot...wise_specified

Which I guess that fits because Ryuukishi isn't really an expert on the field to make a disorder match with anything known. But the point here is that Yasu's disorder is generally reconductible to a form a psychosis.
Are we actually going to ascribe an incredibly complex plan that requires enormous amounts of careful execution to a schizophrenic? Seriously? People who hallucinate, hear voices, and have difficulty discerning fantasy from reality tend not to make very good timetable-bound criminals.

It's rather like being a blind bank robber. I suppose it's possible, but it certainly would be a whole lot easier for a person who can see. And when a bank is robbed in a swift and efficient manner, we would generally assume the person doing it could see.

I suppose it's possible real-Yasu was schizophrenic and Beatrice wasn't, but that just makes it increasingly unlikely she'd be the "real" criminal.
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But that would sound quite dickish from Battler.

One thing is if he's implying: "you only killed people in fantasy, never in the real world". That's quite a valid argument.

Another thing is if he's saying that she only killed people in equally real (or unreal) worlds.
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
IIRC, there's a discussion between Beato and Ange near the beginning of the episode where she implies that she considers her one real sin to be hurting Ange with her stories. Could that be what she's talking about here?
What these guys are talking about. Why are we expected to forgive Beatrice if there's no R-Prime in which she was innocent? Her point - that she's committed countless crimes in other worlds - is completely valid if all worlds are equally viable.

It's the difference between Battler realizing that the only thing he cared about (who "really" did it) didn't involve Beatrice at all and forgiving her, and realizing that the only thing he cared about doesn't even exist, which still makes Beatrice a murderer and tormenter of his (fictional, but essentially equally valid) family.
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Old 2012-01-02, 13:31   Link #26839
ErenselTheJester
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Erensel, didn't you read all the spoilers from the Our Confessions booklet these last few pages? Or are you trying to avoid them still?

If you are, then ... um...

Spoiler for Do we need Umineko Confessions Solutions spoilers?:
In concerning my answers, yes I have been avoiding them, but if that's the case then I'll revise my theory (I had a feeling they were killed earlier).
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Old 2012-01-02, 14:17   Link #26840
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
In concerning my answers, yes I have been avoiding them, but if that's the case then I'll revise my theory (I had a feeling they were killed earlier).
If only I could erase my memory and start Umineko over again, it would be fun to figure out what was going on. Since that isn't possible yet, it's at least just as fun watching other people try to solve it. 8)

Spoiler for Hints for Erensel:



Also, it looks like we may getting a new series from Ryukishi next... errrr... I mean this year, August. (As per Klashkari's post in the Translation thread.) With his foray into making EP8 slightly more interactive, I would bet he's going to try to expand in this area with his next series. Somehow...
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