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Old 2012-01-02, 14:37   Link #26841
UsagiTenpura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think it went more like this.

Battler says she hasn't committed any sins in "our world" (Btw Usagi, doesn't this confirm that there is indeed a Rokkenjima Prime? At least the concept exists) with the probable meaning: "you didn't kill anyone"

Beatrice answers that it's not true, and I believe she thinks about a different sin than killing.
And this could be anything from lying to being the indirect cause of the tragedy.
My understanding of Beatrice's sin is the creation of Ange as a truly tragic character.
So in that logic it really is Ryuukishi's sin.
If you want to consider "our world" to be "prime", sure, but Rokkenjima doesn't exist here ^^;;

My understanding is that "their world" = 1986 btw.


Unless btw you want to consider a Rokkenjima prime to be a world that is the source of inspiration to write the stories. Then I agree that world might exist. But I disagree if you think Rokkenjima exists in that world. I don't think it's really too hard to see either...

Plenty of authors translated themselves in their stories through a single or sometimes many characters. Plenty of characters in many writer's stories are based on people the author really met.

However, making a murder story that figures a complete cast of people who really exists... well to me that's really unheard of and rather messed up.

I find the former thing I explained to be fully normal of about any stories so I really don't see why I should view Umineko any differently. It just actually makes us think of these things rather then them being entirely silent. For instance in my current understanding, Genji is actually based on Ronove (an archetype that exists within the writer's mind), not the other way around.
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Old 2012-01-02, 14:43   Link #26842
AuraTwilight
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But that would sound quite dickish from Battler.

One thing is if he's implying: "you only killed people in fantasy, never in the real world". That's quite a valid argument.

Another thing is if he's saying that she only killed people in equally real (or unreal) worlds.

That's if they said:

Beatrice: I have killed countless people all around the world!
Battler: But you never killed anyone in this country!

That has a completely different ring to it.
Well, it's not like the Battler in that scene KNOWS their world is unreal.
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Old 2012-01-02, 16:55   Link #26843
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
wut...
The whole point of Miyo's backstory was to make her sympathetic.
The world isn't some black and white place.
I don't really see her as sympathetic. What she was willing to do was just too evil.

I thought she had an interesting motive, though, and I could understand her twisted thought process, which is what I really want in a motive. That's my biggest issue with Umineko, that I can't figure out what anyone's internal logic might be. I can get as far as understanding why Yasu would want to do a mystery game, and that's about it.

I hope Ryukishi includes more interactive elements in his future games. I thought Bern's puzzle was terrifically fun, and I even enjoyed the Layton style puzzles despite never being much a fan of the Layton games. I think it was the sense I got that many of them were trying to tell you something about the story and weren't just puzzles for the sake of having puzzles.
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Old 2012-01-02, 17:49   Link #26844
RedKey
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yasu... was just waiting for Battler. While owning gold, having a decent job, being friend with Jessica, going to school like an ordinary gold, dating George who loved her, being friend with Maria, being cared for by Kumasawa and Genji and so on, being able to contact Battler if she really wanted to. Battler who had a perfectly reasonable reason to not show up on Rokkenjima.

She's not in a live or die situation nor are the people she should have cared about and she's not threatened or feels as such.
I agree. As Swigun reminded me, we learn (well, it's more of a confirmation) in Kokuhaku that Beatrice sends money in advance to the families of the victims to make up for the murders she was about to commit. If we are to take the 1998 EP4 part with Sabakichi & co. for real, this means that Yasu was really going to put her plan into action. Thus, I can't sympathize with her at all. She had everything, and decided to throw everything away. I don't care if she was waiting for her beloved prince for six years, was insecure about her relationships with her... nephews? Cousins? or anything of that sort, she's insane from head to toe.
Not that I think she committed any murder in Rokkenjima prime. The epitaph was probably solved soon enough.
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Old 2012-01-02, 18:00   Link #26845
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That's not actually true. She technically addressed that money to deceased people, such as Rudolf Ushiromiya. Perhaps her intention was to mail the payments for those who assisted her in the Murder Mystery Game, and a real tragedy happening caused people to assign more sinister ideas to the money transfer.
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Old 2012-01-02, 18:13   Link #26846
RedKey
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If that's the case, I can't imagine any other viable solutions for letting the bomb explode other than the adults quarreling about the 10tons of gold. With guns. And messing somehow with the detonation switch. If Yasu just wanted to have a murder mystery party with her family, she surely wouldn't have turned the switch on. And we can't possibly think of her not knowing about it, since it was explained to her when she solved the epitaph.
Unless of course we assume that the bomb somehow went off on its own exactly at midnight because of malfunctioning, but that's kind of...meh.

I'd really like to hear some theory that involves no one being at fault, as I really wish to believe that what happened on Rokkenjima prime was just an accident.
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Old 2012-01-02, 18:33   Link #26847
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Here's an idea. There was a Murder Mystery Game and Yasu didn't intend for any hijinks, but let's say one of the adults took the opportunity to get away with murder. Perhaps Yasu didn't imagine anyone would live after like half of them were dead or something, so she set off the bomb thinking "Well I'm not going to let the culprit get away with it!"
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Old 2012-01-02, 20:16   Link #26848
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Spoiler for Hints for Erensel:
Thanks for the advice, and if my reasoning's correct,
Spoiler for EP2 Culprit for Nanjo and Kumasawa:
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Old 2012-01-02, 20:26   Link #26849
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Here's an idea. There was a Murder Mystery Game and Yasu didn't intend for any hijinks, but let's say one of the adults took the opportunity to get away with murder. Perhaps Yasu didn't imagine anyone would live after like half of them were dead or something, so she set off the bomb thinking "Well I'm not going to let the culprit get away with it!"
Here's another one. Suppose Yasu threatened people with the bomb to get their cooperation, but never actually turned it on. Then later, someone sneaks back into the gold room without her knowledge and flips the switch on the clock, mistakenly thinking that they're turning it off.
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Old 2012-01-02, 20:28   Link #26850
Jan-Poo
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Are we actually going to ascribe an incredibly complex plan that requires enormous amounts of careful execution to a schizophrenic?
I thought that we already concluded that it wasn't carefully executed. There were a lot of holes that could get her busted before even starting.
A complex and ingenious plan is not something you cannot expect from a schizophrenic, in fact psychotic individuals tend to be more intelligent than the norm. Now if we are talking about common sense, that's another issue completely, but what part of Yasu's plan relied on common sense?

In her fantasies some kind of divine interventions made everything go "well" for her, but we know in reality something went wrong.
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Old 2012-01-02, 21:01   Link #26851
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Originally Posted by RedKey View Post
If that's the case, I can't imagine any other viable solutions for letting the bomb explode other than the adults quarreling about the 10tons of gold. With guns. And messing somehow with the detonation switch. If Yasu just wanted to have a murder mystery party with her family, she surely wouldn't have turned the switch on. And we can't possibly think of her not knowing about it, since it was explained to her when she solved the epitaph.
Unless of course we assume that the bomb somehow went off on its own exactly at midnight because of malfunctioning, but that's kind of...meh.

I'd really like to hear some theory that involves no one being at fault, as I really wish to believe that what happened on Rokkenjima prime was just an accident.
My favorite is that the Italian submarine didn't just carry the gold but also part of the so called 'final weapon'. Historically speaking the axis too was trying to build a bomb and there was an exchange of material, info and so on between Germany, Japan and Italy.
Since it was a secret project it can be the survivors didn't know what they were carrying and, differently from the gold, they didn't bother removing it from the submarine when it started sinking after they reached Rokkenjima.
Then the mess with the gold happens time goes on and when the Japanese government check the base because Kinzo wants to buy Rokkenjima the submarine is completely sunk.
Nobody thinks it's carrying an incomplete bomb of such power, fishing it up/repairing it, isn't possible/would be too expensive, telling the Italian government to come get its own submarine might lead to explaining why they weren't told about it previously so it's left there...
In 1986 the bad weather and the time that's gone cause the bomb/explosive/whatever to explode.
Radiations might be minor maybe because the bomb work in a different mode than the ones used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki or because since it exploded in the underground base and got buried under it somehow radiations didn't manage to spread or both.

It might also explain why Eva died at such a young age.

BTW Eva reached Kuwadorian because she solved the epitaph short time before the bomb went off and so she found the passage for Kuwadorian.

Battler solved it short after her but took the wrong tunnel. When the bomb went off he tried returning back but, as there were no survivors, he went in shock and escaped from the island. Later he's involved in the car incident with Ikuko.

As for Yasu she was waiting for Eva at Kuwadorian, handed her the ring of the head then tried returning back.
Funnily enough she managed not to cross path with Battler and, out of guilt for having thought up tales in which the whole family was killed, once she sees they're all dead, she fleed and took the identity she had previously prepared as she didn't plan to kill herself after that family conference, just to disappear.
Luckily/unluckily enough she almost run over Battler with 'her' car but he has forgotten everything.

Eva has no idea who blasted the house away but might suspect Rudolf did as he was in serious financial troubles and had tie with shady business. So she decides to hide everything from Ange.

However:
even though it's an historical thing that the Axis was also trying to build a final weapon there's no real hint that's what the submarine was carrying so I guess this can't be used in Umineko (even if it would be more logic than Japanese government leaving Kinzo so much explosive, Kinzo building a self destruction mechanism for his house and Italian government trying to hide gold in Japan).

In an interview it was said:
Quote:
One of the things that you can really know from within the story is that „Eva knew something but decided to never to tell Ange about it.“. Based on that many different things have been said in the meta world, and there were also several depictions that hinted at the truth, and it might be a common factor that interpretations on that will diverge. If you start thinking from that point though, even if some small parts are different, you can guess that on this island „a regretable incident happened because of certain actions that those people took“. It’s sufficient if you start thinking further from there. Why was it that Beatrice said so often „It all becomes easier once you accept the witch!“?!
So something regrettable should have happened, something Eva didn't want Ange to know about.
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Old 2012-01-02, 22:26   Link #26852
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Young age? She's probably in her 60s when she died.
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Old 2012-01-02, 22:42   Link #26853
AuraTwilight
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Or at the very least her late 50's.

Also, it's common knowledge that happier people live longer, and vice versa, so...
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Old 2012-01-03, 01:12   Link #26854
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
However it's really time for us to take conclusion cause there won't be any more material. I look at the overall of everything and I am certain from it that "the coin" is a meta-story, and one side is the game's workings, a mystery, while the other is the game's narrative, a fantasy. So that really doesn't leave much place for a prime.
I'd like to point out that Dlanor said that Beatrice was telling 3 stories, not 2, and that with "Our Confessions" only 2 of the 3 had been exposed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedKey View Post
I'd really like to hear some theory that involves no one being at fault, as I really wish to believe that what happened on Rokkenjima prime was just an accident.
The mystery murder game of Yasu's was just too realistic and the "survivors" suspected each other and began to mistakenly kill each other in self defense. Thinking that no one else was alive, and worried that they would be blamed for the murders, Eva and/or Battler turned on the switch and fled. Unfortunately, this resulted in everyone who had merely faked their deaths to be killed as well.

No murders, but still quite a few cases of manslaughter.
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Old 2012-01-03, 05:50   Link #26855
Ayu-ayu
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Argh. Animesuki timed out on me and ate my lengthy post. Dammit.

Its late so I'll just sum up some key points I had written out:

1. I agree the switch is part of the key to Prime. I think it was either left in an unknown state (a la cat-box writ large) somehow (hence showing Eva's skepticism of the switch in ep 7), or Eva deliberately used it either in self defense or to cover up her family's crimes she witnessed. I do believe the scenario that Eva is innocent but taking the brunt of the accusations to shield Ange.

2. I believe also that the epitaph was solved early. But what I am speculating is that this happened after Yasu had recruited her accomplices and set everything up. This led to a discord and confusion on the part of the accomplices who thought they would be cheated out of their prior deal, and hence the new series of fighting and possible murders.

3. I believe that murder story Yasu has plenty of motivation. She blames Nanjou and Genji for her present physiological state. She blames the family for driving Battler away and to him forgetting her. She basically can construct reasons to blame just about all her issues on everyone else there as needed. Everything is present to make her into a villain for the sake of her plot. Everything but love. Love is the magic that Yasu needs to escape from becoming the Golden Slaughterer in the end. Battler does come through, so she does not commit the crimes, but she had planned them all the same, and the island is still blown up.
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Old 2012-01-03, 05:53   Link #26856
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Doesn't explain why she kills Gohda or Maria or Jessica or George. None of them did a damn thing to her, even incidentally.
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Old 2012-01-03, 06:02   Link #26857
Ayu-ayu
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Doesn't explain why she kills Gohda or Maria or Jessica or George. None of them did a damn thing to her, even incidentally.
Maria helped her become Beatrice, Jessica and George both wanted for her to be something she could not be. Gohda...well, he's simply not playing along well enough.

Basically, Yasu is thinking as a culprit, because she needs to become one for her story. It's self-feeding and growing out of hand. She wants Battler to solve it early before she fully loses herself to this latest role she is playing. This may also be why it starts as a game, but becomes real by the end. Of course, she's hoping Battler will stop her, and may even deliberately slip up in Prime.

edit:

Maria also knew too much about Beatrice, plus was a "magical" rival. But I agree all these are stretching some. But that's kind of my point. Yasu is writing these game scenarios to cast herself as the villain, so she has something of a chip on her shoulder when it comes to self-victimization.
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Last edited by Ayu-ayu; 2012-01-03 at 06:20. Reason: more thoughts
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Old 2012-01-03, 06:37   Link #26858
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I just can't buy Yasu having the capability of murdering people so callously, especially if she's literally doing it for fun and self-gratification.

This is the same girl, afterall, too timid to make a phonecall, and Zero Beatrice (Basically Yasu) was literally unable to work up the nerve to kill Natsuhi.
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Old 2012-01-03, 07:09   Link #26859
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Isn't it Shannon who was too timid to make a phonecall?
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Old 2012-01-03, 08:27   Link #26860
Jan-Poo
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I just can't buy Yasu having the capability of murdering people so callously, especially if she's literally doing it for fun and self-gratification.

This is the same girl, afterall, too timid to make a phonecall, and Zero Beatrice (Basically Yasu) was literally unable to work up the nerve to kill Natsuhi.
I thought chick Beato was not the same Beatrice. And Clair's history shows a completely different personality for Yasu even when she was a child.
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