AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Bleach

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-01-03, 16:04   Link #81
Kafriel
Senior Guest
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
Age: 25
What I hated the most was Shawlong Qufang's ranking explanation of 1-10 being espada and the rest marked in order of birth, and Yami. If he was a super-secret 'zero-type- villain that only appears when everyone else is beaten, I'd be cool with it, and he'd have the excuse of having to gather strength first, but going from 10 to 0, claiming to be supah-strong and dying offscreen is an insult to the readers.
__________________
Kafriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-03, 16:44   Link #82
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
What I hated the most was Shawlong Qufang's ranking explanation of 1-10 being espada and the rest marked in order of birth, and Yami. If he was a super-secret 'zero-type- villain that only appears when everyone else is beaten, I'd be cool with it, and he'd have the excuse of having to gather strength first, but going from 10 to 0, claiming to be supah-strong and dying offscreen is an insult to the readers.
I dont think he's dead, but yea, yami and the previous espada 100s and then 11-20 were all stupid characters and their rankings are trivial and pointless. going by what I saw, I dont see how ulquiorra or barragan weren't #1 | edit: aside from making the ulquiorra #4 and the stark #1 reveals more entertaining of course...
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-03, 16:53   Link #83
Alchemist007
自分のチームにいるよ。
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Age: 25
It's funny how Hitsu made that power comparison but it's all too likely that he probably hasn't seen many of the other's Bankai's or otherwise full power himself.
__________________
Alchemist007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-03, 19:03   Link #84
Sabaku Kyu
The Ironman
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
This is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that he still said Vasto Lorde's were stronger than Captains. The majority of the Vasto Lorde's weren't really defeated in team battles. But if you're going to bring me down for "not mentioning the rest" what do the reckon the "20 brothers" bit from Aizen in the very last page was meant to imply? Because given the context and how they were just talking about how many Vasto Lorde's it would take to bring down Soul Society, I can only see it being interpreted in one way..
You're saying all 20 of them were meant to be VL? Despite that it was already mentioned (chapter 197) that they were extremely rare --likely no more than 10 existing in all HM--and that Aizen told Gin some chapters later he had not finished gathering them for his army?

Quote:
No offense but this is a rather cheap fan wanking handwave. I already said that if the explanation is not good enough then it's still a retcon.
And no offense, but your definition of a retcon is wrong. You say that because the espada all lost, their strength was retconned. If Hitsu had said that it was utterly impossible for any captain to defeat a VL, I would say you had a point. But the only thing that Hitsu said would make victory hopeless is if Aizen marched his army consisting of at least 10 VL against a Gotei 13 missing 3 of it's captains...something that never happened. And Gotei 13 had it's ranks boosted by the vizards besides that.

Me pointing out the fact that Stark face two captains twice at the same time is fan-wanking about his strength (because they didn't go bankai, even though those same captains didn't even go bankai fighting someone powerful as Aizen), yet you give Histugaya victory over Halibel, when she wasn't even damaged by his strongest attack. And say Shunsui basically beat Stark with nothing but shikai. Yes. That and a opening given by Stark being distracted in a fight against two opponents. The good guys healed each other, rescued each other, fought together. The Espada (aside from WW), barely lifted a finger to help each other. That is, when they weren't being betrayed by their own. Really, they would've each had to have been insanely overpowered just to overcome their lousy comradery.

We'll agree to disagree then. Just don't get me wrong. I was really disappointed by the Espada. I thought the VL would push SS to breaking point and create some devastating losses and it didn't happen. I just don't try to turn it into a retcon--there's no contradiction. Misleading. Yeah. Overhype. Yep. Retcon. No.
__________________




Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2012-01-03 at 19:14.
Sabaku Kyu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-03, 21:47   Link #85
Mateus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
^
I was dissapointed by Harribel & Starrk's defeat. And your post brought up a lot of good points, which makes me think about the power scaling in Bleach a bit differently (since it is already different from DB and One Piece).
Mateus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-03, 22:15   Link #86
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
You're saying all 20 of them were meant to be VL? Despite that it was already mentioned (chapter 197) that they were extremely rare --likely no more than 10 existing in all HM--and that Aizen told Gin some chapters later he had not finished gathering them for his army?
its implied very clearly that they are VL level. you're ignoring the obvious imo. no offense or anything but you shouldnt need to have such precisely detailed definitions of characters to be able to infer such a thing. it would have been dumb for every one of them to have some lines devoted to them like "ah, grimmjow, why did you get injured by ichigo? you are VL level after all"... and so on. also, 20 out of 1000s is rare

Quote:
But the only thing that Hitsu said would make victory hopeless is if Aizen marched his army consisting of at least 10 VL against a Gotei 13 missing 3 of it's captains...something that never happened. And Gotei 13 had it's ranks boosted by the vizards besides that.
you're comparing apples and oranges. hitsugaya implies that a fight between 10 captains and 10 espada would spell doom for the shinigami. as was stated before most were killed/stopped by 1 captain. and yama jii could have beat a few by himself easy

Quote:
The Espada (aside from WW), barely lifted a finger to help each other. That is, when they weren't being betrayed by their own. Really, they would've each had to have been insanely overpowered just to overcome their lousy comradery.
you're ignoring certain facts to prove your lopsided argument. shunsui and ukitake were distracted/taken by surprise by wonderweiss who also helped barragan and hallibel. plus the espada heal themselves when they go resurrection
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-03, 22:31   Link #87
Squarecrow
Supreme Ruler of Crowatia
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Age: 23
You also have to realize they weren't Hollow Vasto Lordes, they're Arrancar. Arrancar are supposed to be even stronger than their non-Arrancar counterparts. A VL Arrancar should really have no problem dealing with the average Captain (i.e. not Yamamoto). But of course, taking a VL which was said to be as strong as a Captain and giving it a big power boost only makes it... weaker than a Captain?

Kubo logic.
Squarecrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-03, 22:55   Link #88
Chiisai Kuma
Senior Member
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ireland (hello British Bleach fans)
so no chapter tomorrow?
__________________

sig made by the wonderful Godlike1889
http://forums.animesuki.com/member.php?u=80506
Chiisai Kuma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-04, 01:03   Link #89
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squarecrow View Post
You also have to realize they weren't Hollow Vasto Lordes, they're Arrancar. Arrancar are supposed to be even stronger than their non-Arrancar counterparts. A VL Arrancar should really have no problem dealing with the average Captain (i.e. not Yamamoto). But of course, taking a VL which was said to be as strong as a Captain and giving it a big power boost only makes it... weaker than a Captain?

Kubo logic.
heh. yea I totally agree with this. I misspoke earlier saying "hitsugaya implies that a fight between 10 captains and 10 espada would spell doom for the shinigami" it should be Vasto Lordes. Espada are even more powerful further increasing the senselessness. and its safe to say that the espada are all VL level and above
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-04, 06:27   Link #90
Haak
F**k my life...
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
You're saying all 20 of them were meant to be VL? Despite that it was already mentioned (chapter 197) that they were extremely rare --likely no more than 10 existing in all HM--and that Aizen told Gin some chapters later he had not finished gathering them for his army?
Again: How else is it meant to be interpreted? Given the fact that they were just talking about how many Vasto Lorde's it would take to bring Soul Society down, how else is it meant to be taken?

It was already mentioned that no more than 10 existed, but that's kinda like a bad guy saying "You can't win" and then the good guy saying "yes I can". Sometimes you make something that sounds like exposition for the sole purpose of breaking it seconds later. The fact that Aizen hadn't finished gathering his army doesn't suggest anything except that he doesn't have the full number. That doesn't mean he has less than 22.

Quote:
And no offense, but your definition of a retcon is wrong. You say that because the espada all lost, their strength was retconned.

If Hitsu had said that it was utterly impossible for any captain to defeat a VL, I would say you had a point. But the only thing that Hitsu said would make victory hopeless is if Aizen marched his army consisting of at least 10 VL against a Gotei 13 missing 3 of it's captains...something that never happened. And Gotei 13 had it's ranks boosted by the vizards besides that.
No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that most of the Vasto Lorde lost to a single captains sole combat capabilities when we were specifically told that "the fact of the matter is that the Vasto Lorde's combat capabilities are above that of our captains". That is a retcon because it goes against established exposition without a convincing explanation.

Quote:
Me pointing out the fact that Stark face two captains twice at the same time is fan-wanking about his strength (because they didn't go bankai, even though those same captains didn't even go bankai fighting someone powerful as Aizen), yet you give Histugaya victory over Halibel, when she wasn't even damaged by his strongest attack.
Does she have to be damaged? Hitsugaya only says that when the last of the 100 petals falls her life will be claimed. I don't recall it ever being mentioned that she would take damage in between. If the last petal already fell when Wonderweiss freed he then i you might have a point, but even then she's still trapped and that also counts as a defeat anyway.

You also make the point that those same captains didn't release their bankai on Aizen. And? Are you seriously suggesting that them releasing their bankai's would not make them stronger? Frankly that's an even bigger retcon since we were speciifcally told that bankai's are generally more powerful that shikai, but even then that's no proof that their bankai doesn't make them stronger (it's just proof that they're fucking retarded). However if you believe that those cpatains releasing their bankai doesn't make them stronger then I'm going to hold you to that. If they ever release their bankai later on and it shows that they're stronger then I'm going to bring this up again. That fine with you? Are you really willing to make that bet?

Quote:
And say Shunsui basically beat Stark with nothing but shikai. Yes. That and a opening given by Stark being distracted in a fight against two opponents. The good guys healed each other, rescued each other, fought together. The Espada (aside from WW), barely lifted a finger to help each other. That is, when they weren't being betrayed by their own. Really, they would've each had to have been insanely overpowered just to overcome their lousy comradery.
This is a rather weird perspective of what happened. Right after Stark fired a cero into Shunsui's back point black, two vizard captains proceeded to fight Stark and were completely outclassed (but without going bankai for some reason). Then Shunsui comes back and stabs Stark in the back and after that Shunsui proceeds with his fight with Stark without the other two captains helping at all. There wasn't any team work going on here to the extent you're suggesting. The only thing that makes the fight uneven is the fact that they both got a point blank shot at each other and it would be fanwanking to suggest that one was stronger than the other.
__________________
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-07, 12:04   Link #91
Frenchie
Shougi Génération
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Age: 27
Send a message via MSN to Frenchie
Bleach is so bad it's funny..
Frenchie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-07, 15:53   Link #92
Alchemist007
自分のチームにいるよ。
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Age: 25
It's so bad I'm funny
__________________
Alchemist007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-07, 17:29   Link #93
Mr. DJ
Schwing!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Central Texas
Age: 29
there needs to be a rimshot smiley...
Mr. DJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
weekly spoiler discussion

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:40.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.