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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-01-04, 02:35   Link #481
itachi-san314
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Oh, no doubt. I sincerely doubt that Tobi will be in any way underwhelming (though I'm not sure how much more Madara can impress us without entering the realm of being so powerful it's retarded, a la Aizen), just that we know next to nothing of his own abilities.
haha! he just has to say he knew this would all happen

its just that some people are putting nagato ahead of him or saying they are close. I'm saying that right now and especially when we know more about him, madara should and will be ranked above nagato

I seem to always be coming down on nagato, but I certainly recognize how awesome and genius he is/was it's just that we are also talking madara here

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And yeah, his evasion ability is a lot more useful than some people seem to give it credit for. But it doesn't really make him stronger per se; the fastest mouse can outrun the cat, sure, but that mouse certainly won't be taking down any cats on that speed alone (though running and spamming Amaterasu probably would ).
well i guess it all depends on personal definitions of power. if we are talking power in terms of pure strength then probably the 3rd raikage would be on top. when i think about a characters power i take everything possible that that one character is capable of into account that would allow him/her to defeat any other powerful opponent which has led to a number of different debates in this thread also i tend to agree with the kabuto theory of him being the most powerful with all the ET summons but i just dont like it
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Old 2012-01-04, 11:12   Link #482
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haha! he just has to say he knew this would all happen

its just that some people are putting nagato ahead of him or saying they are close. I'm saying that right now and especially when we know more about him, madara should and will be ranked above nagato

I seem to always be coming down on nagato, but I certainly recognize how awesome and genius he is/was it's just that we are also talking madara here
It's worth pointing out, though, that Nagato has full access to Preta Path's trolling. With the possible exception of Genjutsu, most if not all of Madara's best attacks are fair game to that (though the reverse is true as well, of course). Madara definitely seems stronger than Nagato, but that alone would even the playing field at least a little bit (and I think Madara has a lot more to lose by having that used on him than Nagato does).

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well i guess it all depends on personal definitions of power. if we are talking power in terms of pure strength then probably the 3rd raikage would be on top. when i think about a characters power i take everything possible that that one character is capable of into account that would allow him/her to defeat any other powerful opponent which has led to a number of different debates in this thread also i tend to agree with the kabuto theory of him being the most powerful with all the ET summons but i just dont like it
For me the ET summons once more fall into the sole person/Six Paths sort of divide, since while yeah Kabuto would be a force to be reckoned with as he is right now, we have no idea how good he'll do once somebody gets through the zombies and faces him directly (as Itachi appears to be on the way to doing, so perhaps we'll soon see). The ET summons are even more blurred when we consider that all signs seem to be pointing to ET not being a jutsu that can be used on the fly; it takes preparation that Kabuto probably wouldn't have access to were he to be suddenly ambushed. Going back to the idea of pitting two people against each other in an isolated area with no knowledge of their foe and with no pre-planning, Kabuto would probably be a fair bit weaker because a lot of his power hinges on pre-battle preparation.

With that preparation he's definitely one of the strongest; I'll agree there.

And yeah, accounting for all of a person's abilities when debating how they'd do against another opponent makes perfect sense. In Tobi's case, though, all we can really say is that he probably wouldn't lose simply because his foe can't hit him (although, KM Naruto seems to be capable of hitting him). All I was saying was that doesn't really make him stronger; it definitely adds to an argument over whether or not another shinobi can beat him, but it doesn't really add anything to his own strength.
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Old 2012-01-04, 11:44   Link #483
itachi-san314
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For me the ET summons once more fall into the sole person/Six Paths sort of divide, since while yeah Kabuto would be a force to be reckoned with as he is right now, we have no idea how good he'll do once somebody gets through the zombies and faces him directly (as Itachi appears to be on the way to doing, so perhaps we'll soon see). The ET summons are even more blurred when we consider that all signs seem to be pointing to ET not being a jutsu that can be used on the fly; it takes preparation that Kabuto probably wouldn't have access to were he to be suddenly ambushed. Going back to the idea of pitting two people against each other in an isolated area with no knowledge of their foe and with no pre-planning, Kabuto would probably be a fair bit weaker because a lot of his power hinges on pre-battle preparation.
the only problem with this argument is that ET only requires prep once. so assuming kabuto already prepped it, he could summon them at any time and very quickly if he were to be ambushed like you say. but I agree for the most part that it isnt an innate ability of his, but then again not much is for any ninja. it also requires prep and or training to pull off these crazy moves everyone is using atm whether it be transplanting of eyes or befriending tailed beasts, etc... again, the 3rd raikage would probably be the best if taking this aspect away and just going by people's born abilities
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Old 2012-01-04, 15:49   Link #484
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just another point about madara being stronger than nagato: madara was able to control the kyuubi whereas nagato had a massive amount of trouble when dealing with him and never gained control. so far in the manga I haven't seen any characters more powerful than tobi or madara. I'm assuming naruto and sasuke may soon prove to be so, but not yet.
That's not really indicative of anything. Madara has an ability (Sharingan) that expressly allows him to control the Kyubi. Nagato does not have a Sharingan so of course he can't control it.
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Old 2012-01-04, 18:41   Link #485
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That's not really indicative of anything. Madara has an ability (Sharingan) that expressly allows him to control the Kyubi. Nagato does not have a Sharingan so of course he can't control it.
rinnegan is a more advanced sharingan so nagato actually does have it. also, just because someone has a sharingan doesnt mean they can control the kyuubi
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Old 2012-01-04, 18:47   Link #486
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rinnegan is a more advanced sharingan so nagato actually does have it. also, just because someone has a sharingan doesnt mean they can control the kyuubi
True, though it's worth noting that Sasuke was at least able to somewhat restrain the Kyuubi's Chakra with no prior training in doing so, whereas we haven't seen even that much from Nagato (and Chibaku Tensei, despite being well suited to restraining the Kyuubi, is not in itself a technique designed to restrain them like the Sharingan's ability to do so is).
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Old 2012-01-04, 19:23   Link #487
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True, though it's worth noting that Sasuke was at least able to somewhat restrain the Kyuubi's Chakra with no prior training in doing so, whereas we haven't seen even that much from Nagato (and Chibaku Tensei, despite being well suited to restraining the Kyuubi, is not in itself a technique designed to restrain them like the Sharingan's ability to do so is).
right but sasuke is a genius uchiha comparable to itachi and madara (i prefer itachi and madara for the record) plus he only suppressed it, not controlled it. kakashi cant control it. nor could any other uchiha aside from madara most likely as was stated by the kages at the summit. madara's brother is a possibility since they might not have known, but my point is that almost all ninja with sharingan/rinnegan can't do it. but madara can making him more powerful in that regard
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Old 2012-01-04, 19:54   Link #488
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right but sasuke is a genius uchiha comparable to itachi and madara (i prefer itachi and madara for the record) plus he only suppressed it, not controlled it. kakashi cant control it. nor could any other uchiha aside from madara most likely as was stated by the kages at the summit. madara's brother is a possibility since they might not have known, but my point is that almost all ninja with sharingan/rinnegan can't do it. but madara can making him more powerful in that regard
My point was that we haven't seen anything to indicate that the Rinnegan shares the Sharingan's ability to control the Kyuubi (though it logically should). And I think WSK's point was that you can't use Madara's ability to control the Kyuubi as a point over Nagato since, as far as we've seen, he doesn't even have an ability that would let us see if he could or couldn't do so as well. If Nagato had the Sharingan, or if the Rinnegan proves capable of outright controlling the Kyuubi, that's one thing. Until then we can say that because Madara can control the Kyuubi he has a severe advantage over Nagato, but you can't really say, "Madara can control the Kyuubi and Nagato can't, therefore he is stronger."
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Old 2012-01-04, 20:49   Link #489
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My point was that we haven't seen anything to indicate that the Rinnegan shares the Sharingan's ability to control the Kyuubi (though it logically should). And I think WSK's point was that you can't use Madara's ability to control the Kyuubi as a point over Nagato since, as far as we've seen, he doesn't even have an ability that would let us see if he could or couldn't do so as well. If Nagato had the Sharingan, or if the Rinnegan proves capable of outright controlling the Kyuubi, that's one thing. Until then we can say that because Madara can control the Kyuubi he has a severe advantage over Nagato, but you can't really say, "Madara can control the Kyuubi and Nagato can't, therefore he is stronger."
actually I think I have another way to word it to prove my point. nagato has madara's eyes. literally. so they are 2 ninjas using the exact same tools. madara can use them better in this regard at least (though I'm willing to bet in all regards) but just for this kyuubi control argument, madara is more powerful by this fact.
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Old 2012-01-04, 21:31   Link #490
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actually I think I have another way to word it to prove my point. nagato has madara's eyes. literally. so they are 2 ninjas using the exact same tools. madara can use them better in this regard at least (though I'm willing to bet in all regards) but just for this kyuubi control argument, madara is more powerful by this fact.
He has Madara's eyes in the form of the Rinnegan, not the Sharingan, and we still don't know if even Madara could have controlled the Kyuubi with them. All logic says he could have, but we don't know that for certain. Madara could probably use them better and is probably stronger than most other ways as well, but we don't have irrefutable proof that Nagato couldn't also control the Kyuubi if he'd had Madara's EMS.
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Old 2012-01-04, 21:45   Link #491
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He has Madara's eyes in the form of the Rinnegan, not the Sharingan, and we still don't know if even Madara could have controlled the Kyuubi with them. All logic says he could have, but we don't know that for certain. Madara could probably use them better and is probably stronger than most other ways as well, but we don't have irrefutable proof that Nagato couldn't also control the Kyuubi if he'd had Madara's EMS.
that's illogical. in order to think this way you'd need to site at least one example of a ninja's improvement causing them to not be able to use a technique. you shouldnt need constant proof that a ninja can still do something. do you think madara would develop his eyes so that he couldn't control the bijou anymore?
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Old 2012-01-04, 22:30   Link #492
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that's illogical. in order to think this way you'd need to site at least one example of a ninja's improvement causing them to not be able to use a technique. you shouldnt need constant proof that a ninja can still do something. do you think madara would develop his eyes so that he couldn't control the bijou anymore?
Which is exactly why I'm saying logically the Rinnegan should be able to do this. But nothing we've seen would indicate that that is the case, so it's a weird spot to be in. Notably, you'd think Nagato would have at least made an effort to suppress Six-Tailed Naruto if the Rinnegan were capable of this (though the possibility that the Rinnegan being an evolution of the Sharingan was an idea Kishi only recently conceived exists). Besides, for that to hold you'd also have to decide whether or not Madara would still have access to MS techniques with the Rinnegan. We just don't know, no matter how logical the answer should be.
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Old 2012-01-04, 22:43   Link #493
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Which is exactly why I'm saying logically the Rinnegan should be able to do this. But nothing we've seen would indicate that that is the case, so it's a weird spot to be in. Notably, you'd think Nagato would have at least made an effort to suppress Six-Tailed Naruto if the Rinnegan were capable of this (though the possibility that the Rinnegan being an evolution of the Sharingan was an idea Kishi only recently conceived exists). Besides, for that to hold you'd also have to decide whether or not Madara would still have access to MS techniques with the Rinnegan. We just don't know, no matter how logical the answer should be.
I guess I can reluctantly agree with this sentiment although there are no examples of increased powers leading to diminished techniques I think. Like what you're implying I think that the sharingan evolution into rinnegan is a retcon. it fits the story and I'm not complaining about it, I just think it was an after thought so that uchihas could have 1 more available powerup
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Old 2012-01-04, 22:56   Link #494
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I guess I can reluctantly agree with this sentiment although there are no examples of increased powers leading to diminished techniques I think. Like what you're implying I think that the sharingan evolution into rinnegan is a retcon. it fits the story and I'm not complaining about it, I just think it was an after thought so that uchihas could have 1 more available powerup
Yeah, the two dojutsu are just too fundamentally different for it to really work. On one hand you have the Sharingan losing most of its abilities when it becomes the Rinnegan, which is stupid. But on the other you have the Rinnegan having not only its power but the already overpowered abilities the MS has, which is just way too strong. Like you said it works for the story, but it doesn't hold up too well beyond that.

I imagine we'll see how this all works with Madara sooner or later, though.
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Old 2012-01-04, 23:04   Link #495
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Yeah, the two dojutsu are just too fundamentally different for it to really work. On one hand you have the Sharingan losing most of its abilities when it becomes the Rinnegan, which is stupid. But on the other you have the Rinnegan having not only its power but the already overpowered abilities the MS has, which is just way too strong. Like you said it works for the story, but it doesn't hold up too well beyond that.

I imagine we'll see how this all works with Madara sooner or later, though.
well, we have seen this. madara used EMS and rinnegan so far as an ET zombie. he used susano'o while in EMS and then used meteor tech while in rinnegan which implies that each eye types techs cant be used when the other is active but it also implies that a rinnegan user should be able to revert back to MS. so either nagato didnt know how to revert back to MS or couldnt and no matter what it is probably a retcon =)
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Old 2012-01-04, 23:19   Link #496
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well, we have seen this. madara used EMS and rinnegan so far as an ET zombie. he used susano'o while in EMS and then used meteor tech while in rinnegan which implies that each eye types techs cant be used when the other is active but it also implies that a rinnegan user should be able to revert back to MS. so either nagato didnt know how to revert back to MS or couldnt and no matter what it is probably a retcon =)
Could also be that Nagato, having had his Rinnegan implanted, couldn't revert for whatever reason (which isn't hard to believe given the extremely strict conditions in getting EMS naturally). But I had forgotten about that, and it's somewhat better that he can't use all their collective abilities simultaneously.
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Old 2012-01-05, 00:10   Link #497
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Doesn't Edo Madara use Susanoo(A two headed/four armed version) to call the meteor technique while in Rinnegan mode. Based off of that it is likely Rinnegan retains it's Sharingan abilities or possibly even enhance them.
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Old 2012-01-05, 01:02   Link #498
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Doesn't Edo Madara use Susanoo(A two headed/four armed version) to call the meteor technique while in Rinnegan mode. Based off of that it is likely Rinnegan retains it's Sharingan abilities or possibly even enhance them.
Ahh, you're right on that. Serves me right for being too lazy to go back and check and instead take itachi-san's word for it, but you're indeed right. Huh.
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Old 2012-01-05, 01:18   Link #499
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hmm. but you are including undead zombies as part of kabuto's overall power. it's an interesting take on things I'll give you that. it really showcases how ET kind of ruins the whole argument lol because you are basically right in what kabuto is able to do with it and that he is fighting nearly the entire alliance himself.
I think they should be included as Kabuto's power, since they are technically his summons. The power of an Edo-Summon was not created by Kabuto per se, only controlled. But the same could be said of KillerB and the 8-tails power. B did not create the 8-tails power, but he can control it. Edo Tensei really is broken. It makes you wonder why its secrets werent pursued as vigorously as that of the Sharingan and Rinnegan.

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edit: also, I'm surprised you would put madara below nagato. what is your reasoning for that? madara looks to be much more powerful, even in life before the hashirama dna upgrade kabuto gave him. he gave nagato his power as you stated in another thread and his meteor tech. was more impressive imo at least
Im just taking into account the fact that the Edo-Madara we see now is much stronger than Madara ever was when he was alive. The Madara that fought Hashirama did not have the Rinnegan and so I wouldn't say that he would have Meteor powers or Mokuton powers. I would say that Madara, when he fought Hashirama, was a little stronger than Itachi. I'd say Madara in his prime = Itachi + control over the 9-tails. Now, Madara also had EMS, which might grant a new power that we don't know about yet. But even so, Nagato had the Rinnegan which is the ultimate eye power. So, I have to place him above Madara for that. Of course Nagato < Edo-Madara. But Edo Madara is not alive, so he doesn't count.
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Old 2012-01-05, 01:52   Link #500
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Doesn't Edo Madara use Susanoo(A two headed/four armed version) to call the meteor technique while in Rinnegan mode. Based off of that it is likely Rinnegan retains it's Sharingan abilities or possibly even enhance them.
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Ahh, you're right on that. Serves me right for being too lazy to go back and check and instead take itachi-san's word for it, but you're indeed right. Huh.
I wasn't wrong... my exact words: "he used susano'o while in EMS and then used meteor tech while in rinnegan" I admit to leaving out him still having susanoo active while in rinnegan mode but this just further proves my point that nagato was weaker for not being able to use MS techs. edit: well actually I was wrong about the implication rinnegan mode cant use MS techs, but it doesnt disprove the argument. thanks for pointing this out btw

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I think they should be included as Kabuto's power, since they are technically his summons. The power of an Edo-Summon was not created by Kabuto per se, only controlled. But the same could be said of KillerB and the 8-tails power. B did not create the 8-tails power, but he can control it. Edo Tensei really is broken. It makes you wonder why its secrets werent pursued as vigorously as that of the Sharingan and Rinnegan.
I agree kabuto is strongest like I said before in this thread. its just that ET seems cheap in this discussion

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Im just taking into account the fact that the Edo-Madara we see now is much stronger than Madara ever was when he was alive. The Madara that fought Hashirama did not have the Rinnegan and so I wouldn't say that he would have Meteor powers or Mokuton powers. I would say that Madara, when he fought Hashirama, was a little stronger than Itachi. I'd say Madara in his prime = Itachi + control over the 9-tails. Now, Madara also had EMS, which might grant a new power that we don't know about yet. But even so, Nagato had the Rinnegan which is the ultimate eye power. So, I have to place him above Madara for that. Of course Nagato < Edo-Madara. But Edo Madara is not alive, so he doesn't count.
madara had rinnegan when he was alive but it was after the hashirama fight. the thread is about who is strongest in their prime though. ET aside, he was alive with rinnegan. and now that its proven that MS and rinnegan techs can be used in rinnegan mode, I still say madara was stronger than nagato
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