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Old 2012-01-05, 23:38   Link #301
Sunder the Gold
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Yes, and such a thing happening to Yuuno or Arf would NOT sit well with Nanoha, Fate or the others, who would demand the immediate cessation of the runes.
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Old 2012-01-05, 23:41   Link #302
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An interesting case, ZnT-verse magic seems to be less powerfull on anti-personel level than Nanohaverse but also seems to be more complex and true to it's magical roots, which probably will cuase troubles when they attempt to dispell the runes. I wonder what could happen if TSAB's encounter with a sample of "True Magic" xD.
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Old 2012-01-05, 23:43   Link #303
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lol I just hope Nanoha doesn't immediately use Full Power on an elf.
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Old 2012-01-05, 23:46   Link #304
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lol I just hope Nanoha doesn't immediately use Full Power on an elf.
Counterspell versus Total Seal Break?

Or Stardust Fall.
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Old 2012-01-05, 23:49   Link #305
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Starlight Breaker vs Counter (barrier that deflects physical and magical)

Or Triple Breaker vs Jörmungand
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Old 2012-01-05, 23:57   Link #306
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
An interesting case, ZnT-verse magic seems to be less powerfull on anti-personel level than Nanohaverse but also seems to be more complex and true to it's magical roots, which probably will cuase troubles when they attempt to dispell the runes. I wonder what could happen if TSAB's encounter with a sample of "True Magic" xD.
Surely in the 800+ magical systems that the TSAB has cataloged , there have been some that have behaved very close to "True Magic."

I'd actually say that Nanohaverse magics is probably more complex and elaborate. Using detect magic on a Starlight Breaker would reveal that Nanoha is doing the equivalent of stacking multiple elements hundreds of times over. Most TSAB mages probably would appear as if they are more than Square Class Mages the moment they cast those kind of spells , especially when an Intelligence Device is involved.

Indeed , could one make the analogy that the Mathematical Based version of Nanoha Magics is a far more elaborate and complex , and more profound version of the crude Geometircal systems the ZnT Verse use? I'd imagine that Nanoha and Co think in terms of Four Dimensional Tessarects , compared to the pitiful squares and other two dimensional geometric shapes ZnT mages operate under.

Still , I'd imagine that the TSAB can sever a familiar contract , if need be , though it would not be easy.
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Old 2012-01-05, 23:59   Link #307
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Don't you need Rule Breaker for that instead?
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Old 2012-01-06, 00:07   Link #308
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When it comes to Fate/Stay Night and Nanoha rankings... I feel that:

S- -> A (in Fate/Stay Night)
S+ -> A+
SS+ -> A++
SSS -> A++

EX is unreachable: Only Yami-chan (U-D) can reach this.
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Old 2012-01-06, 00:49   Link #309
Akiyoshi
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Most TSAB mages probably would appear as if they are more than Square Class Mages the moment they cast those kind of spells , especially when an Intelligence Device is involved.
Except that IIRC Square mages has something to do with the variety of elemental magic they can cast, and according to the Nanohaverse, the affinity for elemental magic is pretty rare, and affinity to two elements is even rarer(Rio is pretty unique in this department). From that point of view, a square mage can be compared fo a Nanohaverse mage with FOUR mana conversion affinities.

Of course the mathematicall spells, the greatly excersiced tradition on quick, combative spells and the adittion of intelligent magical staffs & weapons give the Nanohaverse mages/knights an enormous edge over ZnT-verse ones, save for few powerhouses.
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Old 2012-01-06, 01:08   Link #310
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MCAs are not necessary to manipulate elements; they just make it trivally easy to convert your mana into a form of physical energy, without any training.

Kirche might have a Fire MCA, but she can still learn how to manipulate any of the other elements.
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Old 2012-01-06, 01:11   Link #311
Akiyoshi
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Kirche might have a Fire MCA, but she can still learn how to manipulate any of the other elements.
Exactly, this is what makes trivial the comparission of Nanohaverse mages with Square mages from ZnT-verse.
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Old 2012-01-06, 02:02   Link #312
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Exactly, this is what makes trivial the comparission of Nanohaverse mages with Square mages from ZnT-verse.
Ah , but remember , Square Mages usually don't have an affinity with all Four Elements , but instead stack those elements. Furthermore , Nanohaverse likely has affinities that ZnT does not even have!

So no . A square class ZnT mage does not have four elemental affinities of Earth , Fire , Water and Air in the Nanoha sense.

I'd expect some of Fate's attacks , under a ZnT interpretation of magic to involve the stacking of dozens of elements , in the eyes of a ZnT mage. In Nanohaverse , even the simplest wand is a computer. I suspect ZnT mages are restricted severely by their mental capacity , a limitation that Nanohaverse Devices , even those of Storage Grade have transcended.

As for the powerhouses , like Karin , I'd strongly suspect that a well trained and highly experienced non-Support AA Aerial mage should be able to take her on on equal terms. Subaru or Teena or Erio should be able to take her on with a fair chance of victory. Against S+ Mages like Nanoha , a curbstomp will ensure. And if a Strike-arts master get's in close , no ZnT mage will stand a chance.
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Old 2012-01-06, 03:22   Link #313
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Just reread through Force CH01 on a hunch. Thoma says that cross-dimensional communication cannot be done freely in the Ruwella reservation. Maybe Halkeginia has a similar natural issue? That would prevent Arf from simply 'porting out or calling for assistance.
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Old 2012-01-06, 03:51   Link #314
novalysis
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Just reread through Force CH01 on a hunch. Thoma says that cross-dimensional communication cannot be done freely in the Ruwella reservation. Maybe Halkeginia has a similar natural issue? That would prevent Arf from simply 'porting out or calling for assistance.
Perhaps the Windstones , Firestones as well as interference from the World Gate contribute to that. Distance probably plays a part too - I find it silly to assume that Cross-dimensional communications has an unlimited range , and whose mana requirements are not affected by actual distance in the Dimensional sea. In-fact , it seems like the No-limits fallacy is being invoked here....

Or perhaps the world of Halkegenia are two dimensions that collided together six millenniums ago? If so , the elves might well have come from one dimension , and the humans another.

Which allows for some potentially interesting reinterpretation of the genocide ritual - as more properly , a Dimensional Separation Ritual that Brimir attempted , but failed six thousand years ago.

Here's another possibility too: as Arf is now drawing her Mana from Louise , she needs to relearn much of her spell arsenal all over again ,due to the unusual alienness of Louise's mana pool. Which means that Dimensional Transfer , something I presume is a very high level spell is something out of her reach until she get's very accustomed to using Louise's mana to power her spells. By which point she might just decide to stay with Louise just a little longer, regarding her much like one of the children she helped raise over the years....

Makes you wonder whether an older Arf will be much like Linith to the next generation...

Even more interestingly , perhaps the more Louise masters control over her Void powers , the more access Arf has to her vast and devastating spell arsenal that she inherited from Fate. Or that she might have picked up during the decades she spent in the Infinite Library...
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Old 2012-01-06, 06:13   Link #315
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Yes, and such a thing happening to Yuuno or Arf would NOT sit well with Nanoha, Fate or the others, who would demand the immediate cessation of the runes.
Too drastic for someone like Fate. Especially if it was done unknowingly. Alteration of the runes to remove the manipulation, but not immediate cessation.

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Here's another possibility too: as Arf is now drawing her Mana from Louise , she needs to relearn much of her spell arsenal all over again ,due to the unusual alienness of Louise's mana pool. Which means that Dimensional Transfer , something I presume is a very high level spell is something out of her reach until she get's very accustomed to using Louise's mana to power her spells. By which point she might just decide to stay with Louise just a little longer, regarding her much like one of the children she helped raise over the years....
As Starlight Breaker shows it matters little who's mana it is when using spells. It's still perfectly usable by another mage.
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Old 2012-01-06, 06:22   Link #316
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Too drastic for someone like Fate. Especially if it was done unknowingly. Alteration of the runes to remove the manipulation, but not immediate cessation.
Agreed , fully. If we take Nanohaverse magical knowledge and complexity as being centuries ahead of Halkagenia , even the Void Runes should be moddable in that manner , with enough time. Nevermind that it is Los-tech. Unless , of course , the Void Runes are of Al Hazardan or some other distant precursor civilization origin....

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As Starlight Breaker shows it matters little who's mana it is when using spells. It's still perfectly usable by another mage.
Not necessarily. Usable does not mean instantly usable. Teena only mastered the Starlight Breaker after Striker S , for example. While Arf might be completely capable of spamming Photon Lancers with Louise's mana , I'd think the rather unusual nature of Louise's magic means that it would be reasonable if we handicap Arf early on by forcing her to adapt her spells to the unusual nature of Louise's magic.

Actually , it might be best to distinguish between usability and potentially capability. While I'd say that even Fate is potentially Capable of using Starlight Breaker , should she chose , I doubt it usable for her from the get go.

In the same way , while Arf might be potentially capable of utilizing the full breadth of Fate's spell knowledge , it might not be usable to her at the very beginning , at least until she is aquainted with the unusual nature of Louise's magics.

Furthermore , your argument could easily be extended to Broken attacks in Nanoha Force like Divide Zero. Are you also claiming that Divide Zero is possible with Nanoha's mana?

Also , keep in mind that both Teena and Nanoha are using the same magic system , the Orthodox Mid-Childa style. Void Magics is likely very different , probably as alien as the Eclipse effect to Mid-Childan magics.
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Old 2012-01-06, 07:17   Link #317
Keroko
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Furthermore , your argument could easily be extended to Broken attacks in Nanoha Force like Divide Zero. Are you also claiming that Divide Zero is possible with Nanoha's mana?
Considering Divide Zero is not magic, and therefore does not use mana, no. But that's an entirely different case.

We know Breaker-type attacks are usable by more people than just Nanoha. Fate has one (Plasma Zamber Breaker), Hayate has one (Ragnarok Breaker), even the young Miura has one in Vivid (Bakken Breaker). Teana mastery of SLB post-StrikerS was not the difficulty of using scattered mana, but the fact that she only started learning it post-StrikerS in the first place.

That, and SLB is compressing a huge amount of mana at a ridiculous rate. It's more the amount that explains the difficulty than the usage of another's mana itself. Just look at S1, where Nanoha does a more simple recharge of Fate's mana reserves with her own, and Fate having no difficulty using it.

Again, a more simple nerf to Arf is that Louise herself simply does not now how to properly supply her familiar with mana. This is the Zero after all, the girl who at the start of the story couldn't perform magic if her life depended on it. Making Arf's recovery synonymous with Louise's growth is a natural line given this.
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Old 2012-01-06, 08:32   Link #318
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Again, a more simple nerf to Arf is that Louise herself simply does not now how to properly supply her familiar with mana. This is the Zero after all, the girl who at the start of the story couldn't perform magic if her life depended on it. Making Arf's recovery synonymous with Louise's growth is a natural line given this.
Conceded on this possibility , though I'd think that Arf , drawing from Louise's mana has a high chance of coaxing Louise into controlling her own Willpower/mana even without the Founder's Prayer book. That's presuming that a Familiar is unable to proactively draw mana from it's master , assuming the incapacity of the master in some manner to direct the flow properly in the Nanoha-verse. The problem is , we have not seen Familiars passed down from one Master to another in the Nanoha-verse , with the exception of the Book of Darkness , but that's quite a unique case. However , I think it is very possible , provided all parties are willing for a Familiar's Soul to be bound to another.

Though I still favor the option of having the Void being a highly unusual form of magic , in the same manner that the Eclipse Effect is bizarre by the Nanoha-verse standards , combined with the fact that Louise's ability to efficiently channel mana has been severely compromised. Even if Arf finds the solution within two weeks or a month (or sooner) , the next barrier then could be Louise's inefficient and highly clumsy way of using her magics.

Still , given how intimate the connections between a Familiar and Master in the Nanoha-verse , Arf does have one huge advantage over almost any conceivable mentor. She can sense Louise's magic and possibly even be able to decipher quite alot behind her new mistress's problem , even without the Founder's Prayerbook.

Speaking of which , how does the idea of the Founder Prayer Book being a very powerful inactive Lost Logia , based on similar principles to the Book of Darkness (uncorrupted) , sounds?
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Old 2012-01-06, 08:50   Link #319
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Yes, and such a thing happening to Yuuno or Arf would NOT sit well with Nanoha, Fate or the others, who would demand the immediate cessation of the runes.
Even with it not being extremely drastic, it basically still violates the mind (aka mind rape), and forces the one wearing the runes to act differently than they would, if only slightly.
And Louise wouldn't want to release the control or connection with either one as a Void familiar, from how her personality is.
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Old 2012-01-06, 09:00   Link #320
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Conceded on this possibility , though I'd think that Arf , drawing from Louise's mana has a high chance of coaxing Louise into controlling her own Willpower/mana even without the Founder's Prayer book. That's presuming that a Familiar is unable to proactively draw mana from it's master , assuming the incapacity of the master in some manner to direct the flow properly in the Nanoha-verse. The problem is , we have not seen Familiars passed down from one Master to another in the Nanoha-verse , with the exception of the Book of Darkness , but that's quite a unique case. However , I think it is very possible , provided all parties are willing for a Familiar's Soul to be bound to another.

Though I still favor the option of having the Void being a highly unusual form of magic , in the same manner that the Eclipse Effect is bizarre by the Nanoha-verse standards , combined with the fact that Louise's ability to efficiently channel mana has been severely compromised. Even if Arf finds the solution within two weeks or a month (or sooner) , the next barrier then could be Louise's inefficient and highly clumsy way of using her magics.

Still , given how intimate the connections between a Familiar and Master in the Nanoha-verse , Arf does have one huge advantage over almost any conceivable mentor. She can sense Louise's magic and possibly even be able to decipher quite alot behind her new mistress's problem , even without the Founder's Prayerbook.

Speaking of which , how does the idea of the Founder Prayer Book being a very powerful inactive Lost Logia , based on similar principles to the Book of Darkness (uncorrupted) , sounds?
Dunno about comparing void magic to eclipse. Seeing how eclipse isn't magic at all, it's only natural that it doesn't follow the same rules as magic.

I do agree that void magic could be seen as a highly unusual form of magic. While things like destruction and dispelling are things we've seen before, void magic does have necromantic spells if I recall, which is something alien to most TSAB magic. The closest thing we've seen were the mirages from SSX, and that was high-grade Ancient Belka tech.

Making the founder prayer book a lost logia similar to the night sky is plausible, though any attempt at balancing goes out the window at that stage.

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Even with it not being extremely drastic, it basically still violates the mind (aka mind rape), and forces the one wearing the runes to act differently than they would, if only slightly.
And Louise wouldn't want to release the control or connection with either one as a Void familiar, from how her personality is.
I disagree with that. Louise might be absurdly unreasonable with Saito, but she's not heartless. Once she meets Arf's family and finds out the mind tricking part of the runes, she would see reason. A bit reluctantly, perhaps. Out of fear of losing Arf, but Louise would not hold Arf against her will. Despite her act, she's not a slaver, and indeed usually speaks out against slavery every time it comes up.
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