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Old 2012-01-06, 19:09   Link #381
novalysis
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Oh, I was just tooting the Ferret Horn again, not trying to diminsh Arf's accomplishments.

Just like I wasn't saying that she can't cast barriers. But Barrier magic and Field magic are two different things (though they can be combined to create a Barrier/Force Field), and Arf doesn't have any Field type spells.
Again debatable. A's . Probably. But if she access to Fate's spell library along with her own , than Post Striker S or Post Force , it's doubtful that both of them do not know a single Field Type spell. Highly doubtful.
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Old 2012-01-06, 19:12   Link #382
Akiyoshi
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^ This.

Still, the single lack of field spells didn't make Arf any less suitable to be Louise's familiar xD
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Old 2012-01-06, 19:22   Link #383
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Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Mind you , A's showed that Arf can also perform forced Teleportation.
She assisted two other mages who knew Forced Teleportation. That shows she understands enough to attempt it, but not necessarily that she can do it by herself.

Though I grant you that she might. There's not enough evidence to say she doesn't.


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Indeed , even the Barrier Jacket might be enough to activate the Gandalfar Runes.
Only if a soldiers uniform can. "Clothes intended to be worn in combat" and "tool meant to be used as a weapon" might be sufficiently different. But the gauntlets and boots render that a moot point.


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Which means Arf is going to be far more deadly than Saito ever can be.
Derflinger's magic-eating capability is an impressive advantage that Arf cannot replicate, and which could do her a wealth of good even with all of her other advantages.

If an attack spell ever breaks through her barrier or shield, Derf can suck up the rest. And, of course, if she becomes unconscious or too injured to move, Derf can help.

But Louise will have no reason to go sword-shopping for Arf, and Arf will have no reason either.

Though if something ELSE happens to cause her and Derf to cross paths (and a creative storyteller can come up with something), she'll automatically peg Derf as "an Intelligent Device" and advise her master to buy him.

I mean, any Intelligent Device for the price of a regular, lifeless piece of steel? A steal. There's no way a Midchildan would walk away from that deal. Even if the frame looks like crap, the "core" is still obviously intact if the "Device" can carry on such a spirited and witty conversation.


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And indeed , probably even more dangerous than the tactically inflexible (disputable , I acknowledge), offensively limited and pacifistic Yuuno.
One has to acknowledge that Arf has better shooting and ritual attack (weather control) magic than Yuuno, but Yuuno's magic is better in all other fields. Arf can't heal others, either.

Plus, Yuuno is the more flexible THINKER. She's far from stupid, but thinking is not so much Arf's strong point.

She doesn't strike me as a particularly talented teacher either, given that teaching involves a lot of detailed explanations and figuring out how to make them simple enough to understand. (A talent that Yuuno honed when teaching Nanoha. "As expected of Yuuno-kun; easy to understand!")

Does Arf strike you as "eloquent"?


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But given that she is Yuuno de-facto assistant , and given the fact that I don't think she will complacently let up on her studies of magic , she might well have learned most of Yuuno's arsenal too , if only to pass it on to Fate.
That's an idea, to be sure, but it runs up agains the question of whether or not Arf makes a good teacher.

I think Fate would be better off learning directly from Yuuno.
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Old 2012-01-06, 19:30   Link #384
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Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Again debatable. A's . Probably. But if she access to Fate's spell library along with her own , than Post Striker S or Post Force , it's doubtful that both of them do not know a single Field Type spell. Highly doubtful.
Fate has never demonstrated such a spell. Few people have.

* Yuuno (knows a variety)
* Chrono (who thinks it's "tricky" and would rather leave it to Yuuno, who's better at it; knows at least a "training-type" field)
* Shamal (knows a variety)
* Vita (knows at least one, for containment so that targets can't call for help or run away)
* an entire team of TSAB redshirts trained for containment and arresting, working together to match the quality of Vita's containment field
* Reinforce Eins...

Fate's magical education was too restricted to include such a field, and in her Enforcer career, she'd have a team of redshirts like Chrono did.

Unless she's made a habit of working on Unadministered non-magical worlds, she has no reason to learn even the "invisible-to-normals" Temporal Field.

Given her speed, and thus her ability to pursue and catch fleeing suspects, would Fate ever bother to learn a containment field?

Basically, what sort of field-type spell would Fate think was vital enough to learn, given her usual needs and resources?


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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Still, the single lack of field spells didn't make Arf any less suitable to be Louise's familiar xD
Wasn't saying that. Just saying that she didn't have one.
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Old 2012-01-06, 19:41   Link #385
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Fate's magical education was too restricted to include such a field, and in her Enforcer career, she'd have a team of redshirts like Chrono did.

Unless she's made a habit of working on Unadministered non-magical worlds, she has no reason to learn even the "invisible-to-normals" Temporal Field.

Given her speed, and thus her ability to pursue and catch fleeing suspects, would Fate ever bother to learn a containment field?

Basically, what sort of field-type spell would Fate think was vital enough to learn, given her usual needs and resources?



Wasn't saying that. Just saying that she didn't have one.
You are considering Barriers fields right ? Because Arf can throw up barriers. Solo. In Striker A

Second point of contention: Arf's suitability to be a teacher. Actually , I think it's reasonable to conjecture that Arf has taken up a role quite akin to Linith , from the birth of Chrono's Twins onwards. Which means that while asking her to lecture in front of a huge audience is probably unresonable , teaching on a one to one basis is not. She probably does it very well at that.

Again , I'm conjecturing that Post Force , Post Striker S Arf modeled much of her interactions with her charges on Linith , and considered her role quite equivalent to that. I'm going to argue that Linith is her role model , in many ways , and that she has adapted many of Linith's traits especially in dealing with children.

And yes , Louise is probably going to be regarded as quite a child. Even in magics. Actually , I think Arf might be quite astounded to learn that a potential (and intellect) such as Louise is not serving actively in her country's military at her age , or at least graduated from her magical education. It's implied by Louise's age , there are TSAB captains her age.
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Old 2012-01-06, 20:12   Link #386
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Plus, Yuuno is the more flexible THINKER. She's far from stupid, but thinking is not so much Arf's strong point.

She doesn't strike me as a particularly talented teacher either, given that teaching involves a lot of detailed explanations and figuring out how to make them simple enough to understand. (A talent that Yuuno honed when teaching Nanoha. "As expected of Yuuno-kun; easy to understand!")

Does Arf strike you as "eloquent"?
I disagree here. Arf may not be a full fledged investigator like Yuuno but she's pretty smart and clever, also tends to point out things that escapes the common sense of other characters(i remeber when the A's cast were scratching their heads about what to do with the Defense Program, Yuuno included. Until Arf just took all of them back to earth and comes with a simple-yet-effective plan).

Arf also have various characteristics of a pretty good teacher, if a bit different from Yuuno's, what the ferret have in cultural knowledgea and lecturing skills Arf posses in actuall training skills and combat experience. As novalysis pointed out, she has also taken care of a few magical kids in her past as also assisting her in sharpening her skills during the early years after Lynith's dissapearance.

Also, being througly eloquent isn't a default skill to be a teacher, Nove isn't the most eloquent person in the world(lampshaded mercilessly by all the other numbers xDU) but no one denias she's an excellent teacher to Vivio and the other girls. also Zafira who is silence personified comes up as quite the excelent teacher. Arf is a hot head when it comes to personal issues cause she's pretty emotional but she also has the capacity to be serious and do her job reasonably well. On the contrary, she won't be assisting Yuuno in the Ininfinite Library on first place xDU.
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Old 2012-01-06, 20:27   Link #387
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I disagree here. Arf may not be a full fledged investigator like Yuuno but she's pretty smart and clever, also tends to point out things that escapes the common sense of other characters(i remeber when the A's cast were scratching their heads about what to do with the Defense Program, Yuuno included. Until Arf just took all of them back to earth and comes with a simple-yet-effective plan).

Arf also have various characteristics of a pretty good teacher, if a bit different from Yuuno's, what the ferret have in cultural knowledgea and lecturing skills Arf posses in actuall training skills and combat experience. As novalysis pointed out, she has also taken care of a few magical kids in her past as also assisting her in sharpening her skills during the early years after Lynith's dissapearance.

Also, being througly eloquent isn't a default skill to be a teacher, Nove isn't the most eloquent person in the world(lampshaded mercilessly by all the other numbers xDU) but no one denias she's an excellent teacher to Vivio and the other girls. also Zafira who is silence personified comes up as quite the excelent teacher. Arf is a hot head when it comes to personal issues cause she's pretty emotional but she also has the capacity to be serious and do her job reasonably well. On the contrary, she won't be assisting Yuuno in the Ininfinite Library on first place xDU.
+ what's written above. Completely agreed on that.

I'd say that she modeled much of her domestic role after Linith. Which means that she essentially served as a magical tutor to the Twins , and any hypothetical children that Fate's adopted children might have , depending on how far this is after Striker S.

And Arf is not an idiot too. Akiyoshi makes a very good and convincing point that Arf , despite her hotheaded seeming , and rather perky character is a very sharp mind in her own right. I have a theory that Fate occasionally uses Arf to get a second opinion on the current course of whatever investigation she is involved in , or on certain intellectual matters.
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Old 2012-01-06, 20:52   Link #388
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You are considering Barriers fields right ? Because Arf can throw up barriers. Solo.
You don't read well. I already said these things clearly:

Yes, Arf can do barriers. No, barriers are NOT fields.

You get a forcefield by giving a field the properties of a barrier, or you can just make a field that heals someone standing inside of it. You can also make a field that burns everything inside of it.

Fields are "within this area, this stuff happens" spells. Barrier + Field tends to be "prevents entrance" (defense bunker) or "prevents exit" (containment trap).

Yuuno can create a field that both heals someone within and blocks all outside forces from entry. Presumably, a Scrying/Telekinesis Field helped him conquer the Infinite Library.


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I think it's reasonable to conjecture that Arf has taken up a role quite akin to Linith , from the birth of Chrono's Twins onwards.
That doesn't mean she's any good at it.

You have flimsy evidence to suggest that she tried such a thing, and even less to prove that she succeeded.

Lots of people have role models who possess talents they'll never have. Linith and Arf are two very different people, born from different animals and created by different mages, whom did the creation with very different levels of mastery and different purposes in mind.


That said, I do agree that Arf would try to ACT like Linith, and that would be absolutely adorable and heartwarming to watch, as long as she doesn't stumble in the attempt.

Because she's not Linith, and trying to be Linith II won't work.
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Old 2012-01-06, 21:02   Link #389
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post

Lots of people have role models who possess talents they'll never have. Linith and Arf are two very different people, born from different animals and created by different mages, whom did the creation with very different levels of mastery and different purposes in mind.
Fate's main purpose was companionship , Precia wanted a Familiar to be both teacher and surrogate mother at once. I'd say given how good Fate is as a Mother , however , it'd be justifiable if Arf picked up those kind of talents. Indeed , who is to say that the Familiar doesn't develop along with the mage? As Fate's mastery of her abilities began reaching the extents of her mother's , it's plausible that Arf too developed in that sense. Certainly , she appears more level headed in Striker S than As.

Remember , Arf and Fate's contract is extremely flexible. And if Arf sucked in a Linith like role , why doe she continue to persist in it? I'm not arguing that Arf as an effective "Linith" is a given , only that it's possible and justifiable.


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That said, I do agree that Arf would try to ACT like Linith, and that would be absolutely adorable and heartwarming to watch, as long as she doesn't stumble in the attempt.

Because she's not Linith, and trying to be Linith II won't work.
She has her own ways and personality , and certainly not the outward serenity of Linith.

However , that does not mean that she cannot take on the role of Linith in her own way. I'd think what she aimed for was to take on the role of a "Nanny" or "mage tutor" as effectively as Linith did , even if the means she used for such an aim was different.

Your argument is only relevant when it comes to the means of taking on Linith's role. Obviously , Arf behaving like Linith is OOC. Not whether Arf can do it as well as Linith does. I still maintain my position that Arf can be a competent teacher. The last we really saw anything substantive from Arf was as of A's. Alot can happen in a decade , let alone two.

Any speculation from here of course , would probably descend into an argument over Familiar Dynamics in the Nanoha-verse (ie: what determines a Familiar's abilities , competencies , skill-sets etc).

Of course , here's another argument for why Arf would make a good teacher for Louise: Louise's very wish.

Louise wishes to be truly regarded as a mage . Given how open ended her contract is with Arf , it could be argued that she sub-consciously wishes for a Teacher for her magics. If Arf drops the right hints , that might well become reality.

And Arf has one huge advantage over any teacher - she'd be intimately aware of Louise's mana.
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Old 2012-01-06, 21:17   Link #390
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People, lets take something into consideration. doing well as a teacher and being a teacher "as good as Lynith" are two separate things that aren't necessarily related.

Lynith is an irreplaceable teacher and close person not only for Fate but also for Arf. The fact that Arf isn't as calm as her doesn't mean she can't be as good teacher as her. Arf has her own personality and style of teaching things, she's rude at times but she's also frank and sincere which are also valuable traits in teaching someone.

The same about Yuuno, Sunder keep insisting in comparing Arf with him or Lynith when said comparission is meaningless, we know how competent Arf is(hell, even Yuuno knows it) as also how caring and compromised she's whit everything she puts her heart in(again, season One Arf was made of pure awesome xD).

And this also could be a very interesting point in this cross-over: That Arf and Louise help each other to grow up and reach their potential togheter, if Louise manage to get to Arf's feelings she will gain a very loyal, caring and determinated familiar, teacher and friend.

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And Arf has one huge advantage over any teacher - she'd be intimately aware of Louise's mana.
Plus i'm pretty sure Louise will be more willing to listen to a Wolf-girl than to a Dude-Ferret xDU.
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Old 2012-01-06, 21:44   Link #391
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The same about Yuuno, Sunder keep insisting in comparing Arf with him or Lynith when said comparission is meaningless, we know how competent Arf is(hell, even Yuuno knows it) as also how caring and compromised she's whit everything she puts her heart in(again, season One Arf was made of pure awesome xD).
If Season one Arf was this awesome , how much more Season three could potentially be ? Especially with an entirely new , and even more insecure mage to mentor and serve as Familiar and companion too? I have a badass picture in my mind of Louise riding ontop of Arf's full Wolf size , wand in hand. She's not so large after all , and if Zafira gives rides.

A
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nd this also could be a very interesting point in this cross-over: That Arf and Louise help each other to grow up and reach their potential togheter, if Louise manage to get to Arf's feelings she will gain a very loyal, caring and determinated familiar, teacher and friend.
That , I'd say is the main point of the Cross-over too. What if Louise got a Loyal , Caring , Competent , Sharp and very determined Familiar serving as Teacher , Friend and Surrogate Sister?


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Plus i'm pretty sure Louise will be more willing to listen to a Wolf-girl than to a Dude-Ferret xDU.
I suppose Arf might take her wolf form once in a while to remind Louise what she is. Deliberately.

I wonder how Arf will get along with Slyphid ?

On another note , I think Louise might soon be writing to Cattaleya for advice on how to treat a big magical , sentient , sapient Girl-wolf.

Indeed , I can forsee Cattaleya and Arf getting along very well. With alot of WAFF moments around.
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Old 2012-01-06, 22:05   Link #392
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I suppose Arf might take her wolf form once in a while to remind Louise what she is. Deliberately
Awesome imagery xD!

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I wonder how Arf will get along with Slyphid ?
Arf could be like an oneesan to her given Sylph's genki girl behavior, or the other way around given that she's probably much older than Arf and also wsier in various aspects, it could be Arf's Genki older sister xD.

I wonder if Arf will make comparissions between Agnes and Signum xD
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Old 2012-01-06, 22:15   Link #393
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Awesome imagery xD!
Thank you. I bet Arf would wish that cameras were in existence on Halkagenia.... that'd be an awesome picture , and one she might be able to tease Zafira with....

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Arf could be like an oneesan to her given Sylph's genki girl behavior, or the other way around given that she's probably much older than Arf and also wsier in various aspects, it could be Arf's Genki older sister xD.
I thought Sylph is very young? I suppose Arf might well teach Sylph how to assume a more portable form - like how a certain dragon of one of her charges assumed the cute little baby dragon form. And I'd imagine that Sylph might well often take a young human form among a child Arf.

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I wonder if Arf will make comparissions between Agnes and Signum xD
She'd probably compare Karin with Signum instead . Though I'd expect she'll believe that Signum can defeat Karin. Still , Karin and Agnes interaction with Arf would be interesting to see.

I have a picture of an Arf vs Karin duel where both prove equally matched....
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Old 2012-01-06, 23:04   Link #394
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The idea of Arf acting as the "affable oneesan who spoils her little brothers and sisters" for Erio and Caro makes her character refreshingly more interesting to me.
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Old 2012-01-06, 23:30   Link #395
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The idea of Arf acting as the "affable oneesan who spoils her little brothers and sisters" for Erio and Caro makes her character refreshingly more interesting to me.
I think it was likely a mix of both Older Sister , and secondary mother figure.

An affable Oneesan , and technically also one of your guardians and teachers. I'd imagine that some of Erio early training was handled by Arf , including controlling his powers. Even some of Caro's barriers and other defenses might have been developed under Arf's tutelage.

And if Erio and Caro had children , she might have been very intimately involved in their upbringing. Indeed , I think that any such Children the next generation might have regarded her in a light a little similar to Linith. (That's not to say she was a Linith clone , but she occupied the same place and almost the same level of influence over these hypothetical children.

The later you summon Arf , the even more effective she get's as a Familiar. She would likely occupy a place in Louise's universe close to a "Surrogate , Fourth Sister , and another "motherly" figure , along with being a mentor and Sensei. In the long run , that is , that's how I think their relationships will develop.

Still , the family Life of the Testarrosa Harlowans from Arf's perspective will be a fun read. To the Nanoha fanfictions thread then to propose the idea?
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Old 2012-01-06, 23:51   Link #396
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Still , the family Life of the Testarrosa Harlowans from Arf's perspective will be a fun read.
Sounds like a pretty fun idea xD. Kind of reminds me of that fic about Zafira's days as Vivio's babysitter xD! I think it was called "Magical Babysitter Lyrical Zafira", i recommend it to you guys. It's comedy gold xD!

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To the Nanoha fanfictions thread then to propose the idea?
I'll let you guys take care of that, my voice lost a lot of credit there xDU
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Old 2012-01-07, 06:03   Link #397
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On fields, remember that barrier jackets are created out of a combination of fields and barriers.

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I don't think is lazy, if you can't use your normal powers normally and are in a life or death situation that requires you to use a weapon you normally won't use, may as well take the chance.

Remeber guys, even Obi-Wan was in the need of using a gun sometimes.
Give me such a situation from ZnT, then. Arf is not a normal human like Saito. She's a familiar, a mage and a close-combat specialist. She's always armed, if not by using magic, then by using her fists or claws (wolf-form, yo). I'm fine with her learnig ZnT magic or hand to hand combat (does ZnT even have hand to hand specialists?) but weapons? In what situation should she need a sword?

I just don't see any situation of Arf using a weapon as making sense. She can do just fine without them, so any situation I can think off where Arf gets a weapon forced in her hands seems... well... forced.

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It's not about the status quo, if anything, denying Arf the chance to expand on this new possibilities is what i can call "forcing" the status quo on her. she's a bonafide fist fighter, everyone knows that, but we also know that the Gandalfr powers can make ANYONE an expert weapons user, when we talked about Yuuno there wasn't any problems in regards to this, why is the issue with Arf so big?
Because Yuuno as part of his personality likes to learn. Do remember that when I argued for Yuuno using the Gandalfr runes, it was to use their archeological and learning potential (particularly in the field of magic), not their weaponizing.
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Old 2012-01-07, 11:22   Link #398
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I've taken the plunge and published the first chapter of my take on Louise summons Arf. Or rather , two thirds of which. There's a final one third I've not completed yet.

Keroko , have you considered writing a Yuuno get's summoned by Louise fic?
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Old 2012-01-07, 11:27   Link #399
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Not really, no. I've considering writing a "Louise summons Jace Beleren" fic, and I did ponder another story where Louise summons an OC that would be from another one of Helk's noble families, but that would be off-topic here.
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Old 2012-01-07, 11:34   Link #400
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Not really, no. I've considering writing a "Louise summons Jace Beleren" fic, and I did ponder another story where Louise summons an OC that would be from another one of Helk's noble families, but that would be off-topic here.
Hmm ,this being off topic is true. I'm actually amazed there's no ZnT crossover thread on the ZnT forums - at least I didn't see one, else I'd have pitched the Nanoha crossover there too. I'm actually considering splitting the TSAB side and Halkagenia side into two separate fic titles on Animesuki at least. The Halkagenian side will focus exclusively on Arf and Louise's development , while the TSAB side will probably be followed as far as the successful location of Arf. The TSAB side will probably ask: what happens if Arf was whisked away to an unknown dimension suddenly?

In Spacebattles , I'd probably divide the chapters into two groups : Halkagenia , and Mid-Childa sides. With priority given to the Halkagenian side first.
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