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Old 2012-01-07, 12:07   Link #401
Akiyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I just don't see any situation of Arf using a weapon as making sense. She can do just fine without them, so any situation I can think off where Arf gets a weapon forced in her hands seems... well... forced.
Read a few posts back...

Arf(without shooting spells/flight) VS. Regenerating Giant Rock Golem

...good luck trying to beat that with punches and kicks xDU.
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Old 2012-01-07, 12:35   Link #402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
On fields, remember that barrier jackets are created out of a combination of fields and barriers.
It hardly counts, since EVERYONE has a barrier jacket or equivalent. It's not indicative of the difficulty of all other sorts of field spells.


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I just don't see any situation of Arf using a weapon as making sense.
Her gauntlets and boots from A's.


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Because Yuuno as part of his personality likes to learn. Do remember that when I argued for Yuuno using the Gandalfr runes, it was to use their archeological and learning potential (particularly in the field of magic), not their weaponizing.
Especially if the "advanced technology he runs across are ancient Belkan Era devices.

Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 2012-01-07 at 16:30.
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Old 2012-01-07, 12:45   Link #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Read a few posts back...

Arf(without shooting spells/flight) VS. Regenerating Giant Rock Golem

...good luck trying to beat that with punches and kicks xDU.
As I recall, Saito beat that one with a missile launcher. Magic attacks should suffice.

If not, go for the caster. Arf knows the weaknesses of Golem users, what with Vivio's close friend Corona being one and using it in a famous tournament and all.
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
It hardly counts, since EVERYONE has a barrier jacket or equivalent. It's not indicative of the difficulty of all other sorts of field spells.
It does count, as it shows field spells are not inherently impossible by virtue of being field spells.

Now the difference between various types of field spells, sure. You're right on that one. But that goes for any kind of magic, really.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Her gauntlets and boots from A's.
*rolls eyes* Aside from those. Besides, Aki would just argue that since they're armor and not weapons, the runes wouldn't work on them.

Which I still say depends on the source used. If I recall, in the novels Saito could use a decorative blade created for show as a weapon. The decorative blade just broke because it wasn't designed to be used as a weapon.
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Old 2012-01-07, 13:00   Link #404
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
As I recall, Saito beat that one with a missile launcher. Magic attacks should suffice.
Magic attacks that Arf lack at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
If not, go for the caster. Arf knows the weaknesses of Golem users, what with Vivio's close friend Corona being one and using it in a famous tournament and all.
Fair enough, it all comes down to Mathilde's ablity to mater it's golem into defending her(not a difficult task if Arf lacks flight by the time).

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*rolls eyes* Aside from those. Besides, Aki would just argue that since they're armor and not weapons, the runes wouldn't work on them.
Uhm, no, gauntlests and boots with added reinforcements on knuckles, fingers, kneels or heels can beused/intended as weapons. There could be also special ones with conceales weaponry or imbued magical effects.

So yeah, those can enter the list of tools usable by Arf in the story xD

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Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Hmm ,this being off topic is true. I'm actually amazed there's no ZnT crossover thread on the ZnT forums - at least I didn't see one, else I'd have pitched the Nanoha crossover there too. I'm actually considering splitting the TSAB side and Halkagenia side into two separate fic titles on Animesuki at least. The Halkagenian side will focus exclusively on Arf and Louise's development , while the TSAB side will probably be followed as far as the successful location of Arf. The TSAB side will probably ask: what happens if Arf was whisked away to an unknown dimension suddenly?
Two parallel stories developoing on their own until the unavoidable cross-point? Sounds difficult but is also a really good idea! Good luck with that novalysis xD!
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Old 2012-01-07, 13:57   Link #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Magic attacks that Arf lack at the moment.
*frowns* All magic? Surely even a nerfed Arf has enough power to handle a golem?

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Uhm, no, gauntlests and boots with added reinforcements on knuckles, fingers, kneels or heels can beused/intended as weapons. There could be also special ones with conceales weaponry or imbued magical effects.

So yeah, those can enter the list of tools usable by Arf in the story xD
Which returns me to the point I made way back with the Yuuno thing: By that logic the runes should work on anything. If I try to stab someone with a fork, I use that fork as a weapon.
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Old 2012-01-07, 14:27   Link #406
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The only reason I can see Arf getting Derflinger is because she's the Gandalfr, given what Derf says (at least in the anime): He's always paired with Gandalfr. That'd be the only roadblock I can see for this instance, and you'd need a different method of getting them together because Arf wouldn't need to purchase a sword--she makes robots explode with her fists, so yeah.

Even if Arf didn't have enough magic to outright destroy the golem, she could easily go after its caster, or tell the others how to defeat something like it. Saito had little in the way of magical training after all... something Arf has plenty of experience in.
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Old 2012-01-07, 14:31   Link #407
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Someone stole the sword and Arf later finds Derf from the thief?
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Old 2012-01-07, 14:34   Link #408
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It's up to the writer. As for Derf himself, I can easily see Arf being the only one not surprised he can talk, given her background.
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Old 2012-01-07, 15:07   Link #409
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I can see Arf and Derf getting into an "Are no!" "Are too!" debate on whether Derf's a Device or not.
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Old 2012-01-07, 15:33   Link #410
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*frowns* All magic? Surely even a nerfed Arf has enough power to handle a golem?
Not all magic, just shooting magic and flight, Binds are good but not enough to completely defeat a regenerationg golem. As i've said before, i agree on attacking the caster as a valid tactic.

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Which returns me to the point I made way back with the Yuuno thing: By that logic the runes should work on anything. If I try to stab someone with a fork, I use that fork as a weapon.
And returns me to retort you that Gandalfr magic works on anything that was intended as a weapon from their very conception/creation. A fork will work if the person who make that do it with the intention of it being a weapon. Gauntlets and armored boots with hidden or imbued weaponry(knuckle/heel reinforcements, spikes, hidden blades, etc..) are obvioysly created with the purouse of being weapons. even monk gauntlets are made with the purpouse of allow the user to hit an opponent harder xD!

In resume, Gandalfr only work with what's planned to be a weapon from the very beginning, not with something improvised to be a weapon along the way. If a broomstick was constructed secretly to be aweapon, then the Gandalfr will gain instant expertise with it, if it's just a common broomstick made with the purpouse of cleaning stuff, then Gandalfr has no effect on it.

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I can see Arf and Derf getting into an "Are no!" "Are too!" debate on whether Derf's a Device or not.
Now THAT would be funny xD!
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Old 2012-01-07, 15:54   Link #411
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Not all magic, just shooting magic and flight, Binds are good but not enough to completely defeat a regenerationg golem. As i've said before, i agree on attacking the caster as a valid tactic.
Why? Even D-rankers can do shooting and flight magic. And those guys would be redshirt-level even in ZnT-verse.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
And returns me to retort you that Gandalfr magic works on anything that was intended as a weapon from their very conception/creation. A fork will work if the person who make that do it with the intention of it being a weapon. Gauntlets and armored boots with hidden or imbued weaponry(knuckle/heel reinforcements, spikes, hidden blades, etc..) are obvioysly created with the purouse of being weapons. even monk gauntlets are made with the purpouse of allow the user to hit an opponent harder xD!

In resume, Gandalfr only work with what's planned to be a weapon from the very beginning, not with something improvised to be a weapon along the way. If a broomstick was constructed secretly to be aweapon, then the Gandalfr will gain instant expertise with it, if it's just a common broomstick made with the purpouse of cleaning stuff, then Gandalfr has no effect on it.
And Arf's gauntlets aren't, which was my point. Those are designed for defensive purposes. Arf's merely using them to make her punches land harder.
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Old 2012-01-07, 15:56   Link #412
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Never mind her complete lack of artificial weaponry in her true form. Arf simply doesn't need Derflinger to fight. Essentially, Aki, the only reason you think she needs Derflinger to fight is because Saito needed Derflinger to fight.
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Old 2012-01-07, 16:00   Link #413
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...

I am now imagining Derf becoming a snake-like arm for Arf... Like Gundam Altron (Wu Fei) from Gundam Wing.

...

Yeah, don't ask me why either.
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Old 2012-01-07, 16:15   Link #414
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Never mind her complete lack of artificial weaponry in her true form. Arf simply doesn't need Derflinger to fight. Essentially, Aki, the only reason you think she needs Derflinger to fight is because Saito needed Derflinger to fight.
Don't put words in my mouth again RD. I never said Arf will be stuck in the need of using Derflinger, what i've said is that possibility of Arf making good use of ANY weapons that comes handy on a stiuation could be interesting and a good thing to have in a story. The point that she's a fist fighter or not comes as superflous by the fact that Gandalfr runes makes ANYONE a weapons master, be a defensive mage like Yuuno, a fist-fighter like Arf, an ordinary high-school student like Saito or even a 38-old guy who dedicates his life to solve crosswords on a newspaper and sells hot dogs for a living.

I don't deny that some creative sugguestions and justifications for the use of Derflinger had arised and all of those sound pretty interesting so i think those could be welcomed if well writen.
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Old 2012-01-07, 16:24   Link #415
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Even Saito got conked on the head for relying on the runes, though, and was told to learn swordfighting like any other person.
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Old 2012-01-07, 16:34   Link #416
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I can see Arf and Derf getting into an "Are no!" "Are too!" debate on whether Derf's a Device or not.
Like I said, Arf would want to purchase or keep Derf solely on the idea that he's an extremely developed (if poorly maintained) Intelligent Device.

She's extremely familiar with the type, and Derf displays intelligence on the level of a Unison Device.

Any Midchildan would snatch one up for a decent price (especially when one's "employer" is the one footing the bill), for the same reason that Yuuno held onto Raising Heart even when it only accepted him as a guest user.

It's not necessarily that she intends to use it, so much as, "Hey, I can give this to my mage friends later" or "this should be really useful for Louise, even if she doesn't agree yet!"

Discovering his "AMF" trick would only reassure her that this was a sound investment, after the disappointment of learning that he can't actually enhance spells like those sword-wand things.
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Old 2012-01-07, 16:35   Link #417
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You'd still need to find a way of her actually getting to Derflinger in the first place, because again--she has no need to purchase a sword.
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Old 2012-01-07, 16:43   Link #418
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As I already said, a mildly creative writer can contrive of a situation that brings Derf to Arf/Yuuno, or brings both of them to the same place.

And even though neither of them have any reason to shop for or buy a sword, neither will let an Intelligent Device go so easily.
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Old 2012-01-07, 16:48   Link #419
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Why follow canon as closely as people seem to need to?

While there's nothing wrong with following the general outline of canon for various major points, you don't need to follow everything that happens in canon down to the letter...

Heck, why not have Golem Lady (forgot her name) that shows up trying to wreck stuff steal it?
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Old 2012-01-07, 16:54   Link #420
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Not just steal it, but USE it.

A magic-drinking sword might be just the thing to balance the scales against an opponent like Arf or Yuuno, who would be more of a challenge than Saito.
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