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Old 2012-01-07, 21:18   Link #16081
Chaos2Frozen
The Evil Within
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Drangelic, or by a different name...
Age: 25
Wilfriback, I have completely no idea what's the point you're trying to get at anymore, so I'm dropping this topic
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Old 2012-01-07, 21:42   Link #16082
Twi
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Touma has made it clear he's not well versed in the magic side of things, so he wouldn't know how his actions affect the magic side. Remember when Kanzaki was telling him the Amakusa were now under the protection of the Church, he only cared that everyone was safe, not the repercussions of their combined actions could've had.

He can only act on what's in front of him, not on a larger scale. He's an amateur, not a professional.
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Old 2012-01-07, 21:57   Link #16083
Okashira
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It looks like the epilogue is going to be done tonight or tomorrow, it has been updated several times in the last couple of hours.
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Old 2012-01-07, 22:05   Link #16084
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Wilfriback, I have completely no idea what's the point you're trying to get at anymore, so I'm dropping this topic
What a coincidence! I was thinking the same thing but... I'll try to.

Touma's actions were more or less relevant for both sides as long as Anglicans and AC cooperate with each other to cover up for Touma's doings (Misawa Cram School, Book of Law, Croce di Piertro) but it doesn't means the tension isn't going to build up for RCC (loser side) and the person who is above the Pope, GRS and Fiamma. Since the news about Touma screwing up with RCC's plans again (Quen of the Adriatic), GRS' members (Vento, Terra and Acqua) started to take actions against Touma and AC, sure it was from their own initiative but still the leader didn't take any direct action until the others were wiped away. Obviously, Fiamma is revealed to not be interested on crushing AC but had his eyes on Touma's right arm. then manipulates France to attack UK, UK starts a coup and the coup ends with start of the WWIII all because a right arm that was the key to change the whole world.

Crazy, but IMO Touma was the main reason why Fiamma started the war, sure there was tension between both sides but Science got nothing by winning the war and Magic had its roots on a religion which main goal is bringing peace to the world.

Ok, that was all... for the time being, I have to watch all the anime I didn't the previous season and the season before that.

Oh, and the epilogue is at its 65%.
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Old 2012-01-07, 22:40   Link #16085
Daft
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Exactly how far does the extent of Touma's memory loss go? Depending on the answer isn't he practically an infant? The dude never has a break, is never given any proper introduction to anything and only told anything globally meaningful after the fact. And he's supposed to make great decisions?
He's a pawn through and through as stated. His memory loss and ability just makes him the most convenient for everyone around to use.

We have to ask ourselves whether or not he would be in the same predicament he is in now if he had never lost his memories, because I'm sure Aleister, Necessarius, and now Birdway must have been mighty happy when that incident opened him up to unknowing employment. Touma's backstory needs to be fleshed out already so we can compare the original with this dude running around. I refuse to believe that the original was completely clueless as to what was going on in Academy City at the very least. There's no way he was just brought to Academy city as the most important part of Aleister's plan and not told anything. He must have been prepared (experimented) on in some way for the future in the 10 years he lived there. What I'm saying is that his personality must have been fundamentally different than he is now. If his childhood was half as bad as what any of us can imagine would make him called a "Plague", then he must have been way more cautious/skeptical than he is now.

So hurry up and make Touma rediscover himself Kamaichi, so we can all finally move past this second unfortunate infancy of his and let him get promoted from Grunt A , aka "The world's butt monkey".

/rant end
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Old 2012-01-07, 22:54   Link #16086
Chaos2Frozen
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That's even more unlikely, Aleister letting a piece knows his plans? Not even Accelerator knows even a portion of the plans for himself... Damn, you must really be new here

Go look at the first arc and possibly the first part of the Railgun Manga, even before loosing his memories he already has to desire the want to be something more than just someone that can leave people behind for his own sake. When he lost his memories all that past is gone as well as whatever that shapes his experiences, but the one thing that still remains is his core values.

People don't seem to get it that while he is being manipulated by all these organizations, did you really think he would stop saving people just because he knows he's being manipulated into their benefits? What kind of selfish immature kid would he be if he sacrifice all those people just to say 'screw you' to those people?
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Old 2012-01-07, 23:12   Link #16087
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daft View Post
Touma's backstory needs to be fleshed out already so we can compare the original with this dude running around. I refuse to believe that the original was completely clueless as to what was going on in Academy City at the very least. There's no way he was just brought to Academy city as the most important part of Aleister's plan and not told anything. He must have been prepared (experimented) on in some way for the future in the 10 years he lived there. What I'm saying is that his personality must have been fundamentally different than he is now. If his childhood was half as bad as what any of us can imagine would make him called a "Plague", then he must have been way more cautious/skeptical than he is now.
He was cautious and skeptical before learning about magic from Index to the point to end with clothing damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daft View Post
So hurry up and make Touma rediscover himself Kamaichi, so we can all finally move past this second unfortunate infancy of his and let him get promoted from Grunt A , aka "The world's butt monkey".
Hey, that why he is called "the idiot hero". Touma before losing his memories would think about himself first and run away if he can with no doubt (btw, I remember him lamenting how useless was his power), the current Touma will run head on towards danger facing unknown enemies even if that means losing his life in the process. The first did think before acting and the second doesn't give second thoughts and just moves forward.

Anyway, I still don't get to see the changes after the 'second death'.
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Old 2012-01-07, 23:16   Link #16088
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
There is a problem, the Touma before losing his memories will think about himself first and run away if he can with no doubt, the current Touma will run head on towards unknown enemies even if that means losing his life in thre process. One did think before acting and the second doesn't gives second thoughts and just moves forward.

The last time I've checked, this phase of indecision isn't exactly admirable quality.

Secondly, all that was thrown out of the window when he tried to save Index, heck even before that he stepped in to save Mikoto and that young girl.

Thirdly, even when he lost his memories he still says he'll run away if it can solve the problem- Please tell me which of these incidents allows him to run away to solve the problem?
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Old 2012-01-07, 23:23   Link #16089
Miraluka
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If you mean Railgun manga, that was retcon, he faced known enemies: guys who are no more than the thugs he is used to fight and run away from them.

If you mean the Sisters Arc, IMO its Tree Diagram's and his own memory destruction that made him run away from Mikoto and meet Imouto later, then that lead to the chain of events that leads to the Level 6 Shift Project.
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Old 2012-01-07, 23:24   Link #16090
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
If you mean Railgun manga, that was retcon, he faced known enemies: guys who are no more than the thugs he is used to fight and run away from them.

If you mean the Sisters Arc, IMO its Tree Diagram's destruction and the memory whip he had that made him run away from Mikoto and meet Imouto later, then that lead to the chain of events that lead to the Level 6 Shift Project.

I mean the Aluminium Can bomb incident in the Railgun story, he still jumped in without hesitation.
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Old 2012-01-07, 23:31   Link #16091
Miraluka
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On that story, he jumped and used his right hand, what would have been of him if that were a real bomb? He just happened to be there, the coin just happened to slip from Mikoto's hand and the bomb just happened to be ESP produced ... too many coincidences =_=;.

That story came after The Remnant Arc was over, the author can keep adding more and more stories like he does in Railgun manga and add Touma on them to please fans who wants to see Touma or those who just wants ship teasing. There always will appear more contradictions like the one about the railgun on the bridge.
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Old 2012-01-07, 23:38   Link #16092
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
On that story, he jumped and used his right hand, what would have been if that were a real bomb? He just happened to be there, and just happend the coin slipped from Mikoto's hand

That story came after The Remnant Arc was over, the author can keep adding more and more stories like Liberal Arts City or the Russian Shopping Mall and add Touma on them to please fans who wants to see Touma or just wants ship teasing.
...Okay, once again I get the feeling we're going off-track from the original discussion

My MAIN and original point is to response to Daft's illusions; that whether with or without his memories, Kamijou Touma is someone that would move to save people if he's been given that opportunity or rather that misfortune.

The REAL difference is how he views himself, the him from before is someone that lacks confidence in himself and someone that brushes off his achievements. There's nothing to suggest he was a cynical jerk like Accelerator from before.

That's why even if he somehow gains back his memories in the story, it's not going to change jack-squat because he had already stated what his core values are. And this volume shows that even if it's to the benefit of the enemy, Kamijou would still move to save the little girl.
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Old 2012-01-07, 23:54   Link #16093
rubix22
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Pre-memory loss Touma should have knowledge of the origin of Imagine Breaker... And I think it was teased that the Imagine Breaker is a lot more powerful than it appears...

so... it's possible... if he got back his memories... he could 'break the seal' so to say...

Becoming more powerful or gaining knowledge of how to become more powerful...

Potentially, it could change the way events could unfold. Plus, there's that 'thing' inside Touma, so we know there's a lot more to him than what we think...

I believe somewhere in NT2, Touma stated that he wanted to know more about himself. Whether this leads anywhere is anyone's guess, but it looks like this ground is going to be covered pretty soon in the newer novels...
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Old 2012-01-08, 00:18   Link #16094
Okashira
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Originally Posted by rubix91 View Post
I believe somewhere in NT2, Touma stated that he wanted to know more about himself. Whether this leads anywhere is anyone's guess, but it looks like this ground is going to be covered pretty soon in the newer novels...
It's more like completely the opposite. The only time that the Imagine Breaker's nature came into question was when God's Right Seat started targeting it, outside that no one really gave a damn except for the fact that it was something that got in the way.

Considering that; it wouldn't be too far off to think that outside small clues or "people that "known something" but get taken out before they can say anything", the true nature of the right hand will only come to be a topic when Aleister totally steps up to the plate, and I don't really think that's going to happen before the series ending.
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Old 2012-01-08, 00:24   Link #16095
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okashira View Post
It's more like completely the opposite. The only time that the Imagine Breaker's nature came into question was when God's Right Seat started targeting it, outside that no one really gave a damn except for the fact that it was something that got in the way.

Considering that; it wouldn't be too far off to think that outside small clues or "people that "known something" but get taken out before they can say anything", the true nature of the right hand will only come to be a topic when Aleister totally steps up to the plate, and I don't really think that's going to happen before the series ending.

Given how Gremlin is VERY conscious about Imagine Breaker I feel that we'll get abit more information about it soon enough.

For example, if all of their magic used on him has methods to avoid being destroyed by Imagine Breaker's effect, we know something's up.
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Old 2012-01-08, 00:49   Link #16096
rubix22
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If there really is something up, Touma has a reason to power up his Imagine Breaker ASAP. That, or start practicing Dragon Arm-ing people.
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Old 2012-01-08, 00:51   Link #16097
Kenju of the Right
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*imagines every time Touma gets serious or pissed, he rips his own arm off and brings out 'invisible thingy', then regrows it after pwning*
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He believes.
Even though he’s tired and one leg’s in the coffin, he believes.
He believes in his right fist,
in the path that his weapon creates,
in the scene when his weapon brutally hits the enemy’s body,
that his victory will bring about a wonderful future.
Kamijou Touma’s actions are based on trust.-

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Old 2012-01-08, 01:56   Link #16098
Mr.Kyon
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Minor question regarding Index translation formatting:

Spoiler for :
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Old 2012-01-08, 02:39   Link #16099
Flere821
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Originally Posted by Mr.Kyon View Post
With the talk of the science side civil war, the talk of the Kihara Family getting some limelight in NT4 is looking very plausible indeed.

I also predict AC will sic Equ.DarkMatter on the defecting institutes.
I take your Equ.DarkMatter, and raise you Cyborg Kakine in all his psychotic glory plus AC tech combined into him.

Spoiler for crack-induced ideas:
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Old 2012-01-08, 02:41   Link #16100
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Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
Spoiler for crack-induced ideas:
Spoiler:
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