AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Naruto

Notices

View Poll Results: Is Sasuke's Revenge Justifiable?
Yes: All Konohanians (?) deserve to be felled by Sasuke's blade... 3 5.36%
Somewhat: The Elders (and those like them) are to blame, so they should get what's coming to them... 24 42.86%
No: Revenge is never justified, no matter how monstrous the criminal/action is... 8 14.29%
No: Revenge may be justifiable, but Sasuke's isn't... 21 37.50%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-01-08, 21:02   Link #61
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
itachi-san314, Ulquiorra thinks -with reason I believe- that there is nowhere for Sasuke' characterization to go from now on because there is no way he can success in any meaningfull form in his goal. His character died the moment he accepted (for no reason) that he would kill Naruto first before he went after anyone else.
Naruto can't ever be wrong so Sasuke won't ignore him and kill people left and right which would put Naruto in a difficult position, he might have a meaningless fight against another bad guy or beat up (and not kill) some named good guys but save from that his only future is a fight with Naruto before the inevitable and ridiculous brainwash.
i dont see it so cut and dry. i think there are several ways for sasuke to succeed. of course he wont ever kill naruto, but he could kill the other 2 elders. i think that is inevitable actually and would complete his primary goal of killing the 4 people responsible for the decision (sarutobi being dead already). he could also kill kakashi which i dont want to see, but either sasuke or tobi (if tobi is indeed obito) are the only bad guys who have the plot on their side to kill such an important good guy and main character. jiraiya died after all, so it isnt off limits.

also, assuming this war isnt the last arc of the manga, he could form his own uchiha village and be a constant threat to the others. he could also gain rinnegan, maybe be the juubi's jinchuuriki, it could go on and on. but yes i think it is inevitable that naruto will eventually get him to turn good, even if its just for a few seconds before death. hopefully kishi can do it without making it ridiculous =)
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-09, 11:53   Link #62
Casshern
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
I don't think Sasuke will even get the satisfaction of killing the elders tbh. They just don't seem to matter that much any more. If they do actually die, I could see them sacrificing themselves as a way of atonement, but I don't think it'll happen.

As for Sasuke going crazy, I think the sharingan itself is largely to blame. Pretty much every Uchiha with extremely powerful eyes was crazy. Karin even noted that his chakra becomes colder and more evil as his powers develop.
Casshern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-09, 12:05   Link #63
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casshern View Post
As for Sasuke going crazy, I think the sharingan itself is largely to blame. Pretty much every Uchiha with extremely powerful eyes was crazy. Karin even noted that his chakra becomes colder and more evil as his powers develop.
I disagree. kakashi and
Spoiler for manga:
both had/have powerful sharingans and they aren't crazy. karin did note that sasuke's chakra was colder and evil but it was due to the revelations of itachi and the konoha elders that made him evil, not the sharingan. the uchiha certainly have a blood soaked history and sasuke's fate has been destined toward hatred and revenge, but it's because of his history and what he knows about itachi. i dont see any evidence to suggest that the sharingan itself makes people crazy.
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-10, 09:16   Link #64
xKeir
Upon a wishing Star
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
I like to think the Sharingan as a great power.

And as Uncle Ben once said , "with Great Power comes Great responsibilities."

I'm just sayin. Look at all those with godlike powers and half of them became war torn killing machines of death.

About Sasuke's chakra becoming colder and darker , its more of his hatred growing instead of his powers developing. Surely his powers are increasing near tenfold , but so is his hatred. Each time his hatred for something increases his strength increases. Hatred overwhelms a person and Sasuke is exactly just that as he lets himself be blinded by hatred. Thats why his chakra slowly deviates to be colder and more evil as his hatred increases.

Thanks to a certain someone whispering warped and twisted ideas to him 24/7
__________________
When you hate others you hate yourself. When you forgive them you too are saved. - Asakura Keiko
xKeir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-10, 13:23   Link #65
El_Negro
El_Negro
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Caribbean
The thing is Sasuke is vengeful because he didn't get the justice that was deserved.

People want justice and since justice wasn't fulfilled it's only natural to turn to revenge. The Elders should not get away with their atrocious deed of Uchiha Genocide because of the 9 tailed fox attack which the clan was wrongfully accused for and not given a fair trail to prove the misdeed, they were ostracized by the village for the act of one Uchiha outcast aside from that there is also the Senju against Uchiha vibe so they would not deal with them.

And I don't see why people are praising Itachi as if he's done the most honorable deed in history that requires a humanitarian award. Hell, from looking at his past actions I would probably see him as the prime reason for making Sasuke turn out this way and for all the other dreadful shit that is currently going on in the Narutoverse. Many people state that duty he performed to wipe out the clan for the sake of the village peace so there would be no upcoming wars. The way I see it Itachi got played by Tobi, making him foolish. Itachi never stopped the 4th ninja war he helped to create it. A war that involved the whole ninja world and not just one or two villages. It means alot more people are dying in the war he made, then the possible internal konoha war he stopped. He guided Sasuke to the path of hatred that he is now at. Itachi worked for Tobi and the Akatsuki, he fought wars for them, made them money to fund the materials for war, he helped recruit other members like Deidra, he helped get the sharingan eyes needed for Tobi's izangi's prolonging his life from death/powering up his somewhat invincible jinchuriki paths of pain, he helped hunt down the jinchuriki to complete the Moon's eye plan, he helped to seal the bijuu in the Gedo Maza, he was a fool to believe Tobi would keep his promise and not go after Sasuke, he was foolish enough to think a suprise ameratsu attack would kill Tobi, he was foolish to believe if Sasuke went back to the leaf village that he would be a hero and not Danzo's number one target (Sasuke without CS/MS/EMS). Danzo had Sai try to assasinate Sasuke despite Itachi's pact and supposed instilation of fear by showing up in the leaf village (Itachi thought Danzo would keep his word through intimidation, foolish). Itachi took CS away and without the truth Sasuke would not feel the pain of itachi's death for MS, or ever want itachi's eyes for EMS.

Itachi was fooled by Danzo,Tobi and probably the Elders

Last edited by El_Negro; 2012-01-10 at 13:34.
El_Negro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-10, 19:04   Link #66
Sabaku Kyu
The Ironman
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
You know that's bull even as rationalization goes. Shika did have to seek them out, was under direct order to stay out of it and would have been slaughtered along with his friend if he hadn't gotten lucky when Tsunade and Kakashi caught them before they left the village.
The author simply deemed this revenge okay and so it was, that's all there is to it.
I don't think it's bull. I veto the bull vote.

You can't really categorize what Shikamaru did with what Sasuke's doing. Sasuke is obsessed revenge and would do anything to see that he gets it: Betray his village, hurt or kill loyal friends and innocents, ally himself with lowest scum around--anything to get back at the people that cause him to lose his clan. Shika wouldn't have sought revenge if it meant betraying his village or purposely hurting people he cared about. He did disobey a direct order to go after Akatsuki, but I don't think he was anywhere remotely close to the path Sasuke was taking, if he was, Kakashi would've given him the same speech he gave Sasuke about revenge instead of aiding him.

I'm not going to sugarcoat and say that what Shika, Ino and Chouji did wasn't revenge, but I've always seen it more about them taking personal responsibility. Asuma and Shika were part of a mission to eliminate two Akatsuki threats and Asuma died trying accomplish the mission. It always seemed that what was ultimately important to Shika and co. wasn't getting revenge on Hidan and Kakuzu, but as his pupils, finishing what Asuma started to honor him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Negro View Post
The thing is Sasuke is vengeful because he didn't get the justice that was deserved.

People want justice and since justice wasn't fulfilled it's only natural to turn to revenge. The Elders should not get away with their atrocious deed of Uchiha Genocide because of the 9 tailed fox attack which the clan was wrongfully accused for and not given a fair trail to prove the misdeed, they were ostracized by the village for the act of one Uchiha outcast aside from that there is also the Senju against Uchiha vibe so they would not deal with them.
The Uchica weren't murdered because of the Kyuubi attack...this is the reason they were segregated. The clan was killed because they were planning a coup against Konoha. And there was really no need for a trial because there was no doubt about their conspiracy. Sandaime actually tried to negotiate with the Uchiha through diplomacy. When that failed, Danzou and the Elders took matters into their own hands--or rather put it into Itachi's hands.

Quote:
And I don't see why people are praising Itachi as if he's done the most honorable deed in history that requires a humanitarian award. Hell, from looking at his past actions I would probably see him as the prime reason for making Sasuke turn out this way and for all the other dreadful shit that is currently going on in the Narutoverse.
I agree with that, though I'll admit Itachi was in a really desperate situation. From what it seems like, the Uchiha were pretty adamant about rebelling against Konoha. There's no telling what would've happened had the coup actually happened.

But at best, I would consider Itachi a victim.
__________________



Sabaku Kyu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-11, 01:07   Link #67
El_Negro
El_Negro
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Caribbean
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
The Uchica weren't murdered because of the Kyuubi attack...this is the reason they were segregated. The clan was killed because they were planning a coup against Konoha. And there was really no need for a trial because there was no doubt about their conspiracy. Sandaime actually tried to negotiate with the Uchiha through diplomacy. When that failed, Danzou and the Elders took matters into their own hands--or rather put it into Itachi's hands.



I agree with that, though I'll admit Itachi was in a really desperate situation. From what it seems like, the Uchiha were pretty adamant about rebelling against Konoha. There's no telling what would've happened had the coup actually happened.

But at best, I would consider Itachi a victim.

How can itachi be put in a really desperate situation and made a victim? He decided to put himself as the victim. There could be other options to prevent the massacre and have him take control of the clan instead, although we do not know if that's possible or not, but it sounds alot better than mass genocide and turning your beloved sibling into a vengeful-driven psycho


Itachi knew about the presence of Tobi/madara and instead of warning the Leaf village, he stayed silent. This seems noble at first, forcing Tobi to promise not to attack the village, but the best time the village/ninja world had to stop his plan/the 4th war would have been back then, probably warn the Uchiha & or the village elders about Tobi, the man RESPONSIBLE for the 9 tails rampage on the village. Before he had gathered the akatsuki/made money/killed & sealed the jinchuriki & bijuu/grew the 100,000 zetsu clone army.

Shisui and Itachi, which were known as one of the strongest genjutsu users among Uchiha (probably the strongest), should be able to convince Uchiha elders via their normal Sharingan genjutsu to avoid war and try to negotiate with Hiruzen even without using of Kotoamatsukami (and probably Shisui should be able to do maximum two of those per 10 years, unless he got Hashirama's cells).

If possible, Itachi could've taken his father's place of Uchiha leader by challenging him for the rule of the clan. If he would prove himself stronger than any other of his clan (and only Shisui at that time had MS and he has only extreme powerful Genjutsu and was Itachi's supporter) than with him in control of his clan he would be able to stop this pointless bloodshed. I think the hokage or the elders could allow that to happen, have an Uchiha on their side and that Uchiha is leader of the clan to keep the clan in check.

No one understands why Itachi massacred his family. He never said why and we can hardly trust the word of Tobi a habitual liar. The Uchiha were not fooled by Tobi, the Leaf were fooled by Tobi, something Itachi forgot to mention to the elders about (a person who did have the power to control the fox and frame the Uchiha, important information, yes)Tobi/madara being alive. He joined to spy, but his actions helped the 4th ninja war to happen, and he was a shitty spy. Who did he give any information to? He created war joining akatsuki. People talk about his supposed intentions, while his actions say something totally different. What did he do to counteract all the evil he did? probably the only good thing he ever did was to leave Naruto alone (didn't capture the 9 tails, his original mission in akatsuki), and now here is Naruto cleaning up after his mess .


Itachi endangered Konoha worst of all he made the weapon that Sasuke has become, armed him with MS/EMS, allowed Tobi to tell him the Truth/maybe, Itachi killed the uchiha and let Sasuke feel guilt for killing him to fuel his hate/sadness.

Last edited by El_Negro; 2012-01-11 at 01:18.
El_Negro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-11, 18:54   Link #68
Hunter
Bubbly and super fun
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I don't think it's bull. I veto the bull vote.
I'm not sure what you vetoed since what I called bull was saying that Shika's action weren't motivated by revenge, not that he was exactly similar to Sasuke
Your first paragraph is true but has nothing to do with the point I raised. Of course Shika situation isn't the same as Sasuke. To start with what they suffered can't be compared and then he got his revenge within a week. Have Shika return to Konoha to find everybody dead at the hand of Hidan and then fail to return the favor for the next decade and we could talk.
I'd disagree about Kakashi though, the man flatly said to Sasuke to forgot about revenge, period. That was a very stupid thing to say and obviously it didn't work. Had he acted the way he did with Shika (ie proposing to enable his revenge through his help) instead of blabbing about revenge being bad then maybe things could have turned differently.
You also say that you're not sugarcoating it but that's pretty much all you did. Shika didn't go after Hidan because he was part of the team (he and dozens of others that is) sent after him, he (and his 2 friends who weren't even part of the mission to begin with) went after Hidan because he wanted revenge for his teacher, period. That's why Kakashi told Tsunade that it was no use to tell him not to go, because he would refuse blindly to follow order and go on his own anyway and so it was better to go along with him because at least they stood a better chance that way. There was no duty rational behind that, Hidan murdered Asuma and Shika burried him alive for it.

Quote:
Sandaime actually tried to negotiate with the Uchiha through diplomacy.
Mistranslation, obviously Sandaime didn't negociate with the Uchiha clan about their "secret" coup, else they would have known thet had been busted. He tried to negociate with the Elders and Danzou about their decision to kill them all.
Hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-13, 01:01   Link #69
Sabaku Kyu
The Ironman
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Negro View Post
How can itachi be put in a really desperate situation and made a victim? He decided to put himself as the victim. There could be other options to prevent the massacre and have him take control of the clan instead, although we do not know if that's possible or not, but it sounds alot better than mass genocide and turning your beloved sibling into a vengeful-driven psycho

Itachi knew about the presence of Tobi/madara and instead of warning the Leaf village, he stayed silent. This seems noble at first, forcing Tobi to promise not to attack the village, but the best time the village/ninja world had to stop his plan/the 4th war would have been back then, probably warn the Uchiha & or the village elders about Tobi, the man RESPONSIBLE for the 9 tails rampage on the village.
Ok yeah, but how much better would that have made things in the long run? Knowing the truth that Madara was the true enemy behind the Kyuubi attack might've prevented the massacre of the Uchiha clan but it still doesn't change the fact that Madara is an Uchiha. It's his bloodline that gives him that power. A power every other Uchiha has the potential to wield. For the elders and Danzou, that just confirms how dangerous they are.

Let's say Itachi stopped the coup and take control of the Uchiha under Sarutobi's authority. How many are going to truly support him after he shows more loyalty to Konoha than his clan? Maybe the majority would be obedient because of his strength, but then there are those who could continue to rebel and become missing nin or even threats like Madara. The Konoha/Uchiha alliance was already uneasy before. Think things would get better or worse after the Uchiha revealed themselves willing to betray Konoha? How long could peace last before the old Senju/Uchiha grudges came up like they did before? A generation. Two or three maybe? To say the conflict would be finally be buried forever with a truce is hard to say. No matter how you look at it, it would be a fragile relationship-- easy to break and difficult to maintain.

If you're Itachi, thinking about Konoha's safety and its future I can understand arriving at the conclusion that leaving the Uchiha alive was like having a powder keg in the village. By wiping out his clan, he ends the bloodline permanently. Madara is still around, but Itachi forces him to agree to keep Konoha off-limits and joins Akatsuki to keep close on his heels. For good measure, he mind-rapes his brother into hating the other two remaining Uchiha. A guarantee that Sasuke would stop at nothing to end Madara's threat if Itachi failed. But Sasuke ended up falling right into Madara's lap anyhow, because Madara was always one step ahead of Itachi. Itachi was made to believe he had no choice but to make the worst decision anyone could make. And it was largely unsuccessful. That's why I say he was a victim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
You also say that you're not sugarcoating it but that's pretty much all you did. Shika didn't go after Hidan because he was part of the team (he and dozens of others that is) sent after him, he (and his 2 friends who weren't even part of the mission to begin with) went after Hidan because he wanted revenge for his teacher, period. That's why Kakashi told Tsunade that it was no use to tell him not to go, because he would refuse blindly to follow order and go on his own anyway and so it was better to go along with him because at least they stood a better chance that way. There was no duty rational behind that, Hidan murdered Asuma and Shika burried him alive for it.
By not sugarcoating I meant that I wouldn't attempt to deny that what Shikamaru did was, by definition, revenge. He was wronged and he retaliated. That's revenge. I know you're not directly comparing Sasuke to Shika, but your inflection made it seem like you see no real distinction in their actions. Both selfishly seek revenge but Shika gets away scott free with it because, hey... he's Shika.

But Shika was sent on a mission to eliminate two threats to his village. His sensei died for that. After Asuma's last words were about how great potential is and how he's counting on him to protect the "king", just because Shika doesn't drop responsibility when Tsunade tells him to let the big boys take care of things makes it purely about revenge? Ino and Chouji weren't on the mission, but they were Asuma's pupils too and besides that, how could they leave Shika to face Akatsuki alone. I don't doubt that Shikamaru got a sense of satisfaction defeating Hidan, but declaring that Shika was purely motivated out of revenge really waters down the development of his character.

I don't think Shika not suffering some kind of karmic backlash for avenging Asuma is really Kishi making an exception to condone revenge. I mean, yeah Naruto's become a saint who resists the temptation of all revenge at any cost, and Sasuke is the horrible example of where revenge leads, but Sasuke is an example of revenge for revenge sake. He has no other cause or goal but to see the enemy punished. Shika took it on himself to finish his mission, help protect his village and avenge his master.
__________________




Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2012-01-13 at 01:24.
Sabaku Kyu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-13, 01:32   Link #70
Akito Kinomoto
木之本 慊人
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Age: 23
Responding to the topic with a resounding Hell no. Opting to go ballistic against Konoha after he found out what Itachi sacrificed for him is a slap in the face, and justifying that vengeance in his name is another one. I'd have no problem with Sasuke's actions if his reasons were only exclusive to him and not some self-righteous crap that further drags his family name into this, but as it stands that's not the case. Honestly I feel like he's intended to be an antihero but performs actions a lot close to pure villainy.
__________________
My MALLet's do a head count here. We've got a ruthless spearman, a girl with a thousand muskets, a near-psycho fighting for love, and a deity who lives up to her status. You've managed to piss them all off. When they come, and they will, they're coming for you

/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ I have an army

We have a Goddess
Akito Kinomoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-13, 07:29   Link #71
El_Negro
El_Negro
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Caribbean
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Ok yeah, but how much better would that have made things in the long run? Knowing the truth that Madara was the true enemy behind the Kyuubi attack might've prevented the massacre of the Uchiha clan but it still doesn't change the fact that Madara is an Uchiha. It's his bloodline that gives him that power. A power every other Uchiha has the potential to wield. For the elders and Danzou, that just confirms how dangerous they are.

Let's say Itachi stopped the coup and take control of the Uchiha under Sarutobi's authority. How many are going to truly support him after he shows more loyalty to Konoha than his clan? Maybe the majority would be obedient because of his strength, but then there are those who could continue to rebel and become missing nin or even threats like Madara. The Konoha/Uchiha alliance was already uneasy before. Think things would get better or worse after the Uchiha revealed themselves willing to betray Konoha? How long could peace last before the old Senju/Uchiha grudges came up like they did before? A generation. Two or three maybe? To say the conflict would be finally be buried forever with a truce is hard to say. No matter how you look at it, it would be a fragile relationship-- easy to break and difficult to maintain.
Okay so your'e saying basically to kill everyone off because of the actions of one person right?

The coup de tat was planned after the nine tails attack, the Elders wrongfully accused them after the attack, leading to immediate segregation, and as Hunter said negotiations were only made amongst themselves (The Hokage and the Elders, with the Hokage trying to reach a peaceful solution) to deal with the Uchiha treatment. I don't recall Uchiha getting any proper representation and if they did we can't/don't know what they were asking for in their "supposed" negotiations, for all I know it could be better treatment or a fair trail to hear their side of the story for a change or to probably leave the village, we cannot say for sure.

I can tell you that there are some of the people who live with the Uchiha Clan who do not inherit/possess their powerful abilities, those could be people who marry into the Clan, these people who do not inherit their abilities but still serve as members of the clan such as Sasuke's Aunt or Uncle who run their Gift Shop (I don't see them performing any Fireball Jutsu's), some who do the small grunt work or like his Mother who's probably a stay at home mom. There maybe some who don't even know about their hidden coup (remember it's hidden to those who are in the Konoha Military Police Force, the only person outside the KMPF was Fugaku's wife and that's because he was the Clan Leader/Coup Leader) it could be those kids that are Sasuke's age or younger but because they are Uchiha kill them off too for fear they grow up to become uber strong like Madara, we don't know if all of them are capable of reaching Madara's level and it was stated that Madara was an exceptionally gifted member who had high level's of chakra thus making him a perfect candidate to reach god-like status. To reach that level requires lethal methods such as killing someone close to you (close relative). Your'e making it sound as though every-member of the Uchiha clan has exceptional chakra level's like Madara's, we don't know and we can't say for sure only Kishi could confirm this. Still, these innocent didn't deserve this treatment. This is why Sasuke's on a romp right now in offing every-member of konoha including the innocent ones who are enjoying the peace and stability his clansmen (All Uchiha People)were sacrificed for NOT JUST ITACHI. Everyone is looking at the clan as an evil clan need I remind you that there are some who are good (Obito & Shisui are just one for starters).


And I'm pretty sure that if the Uchiha rebellion was stomped the first time by itachi and sarutobi, they would dare not try a second time or it would probably take a very long time too to do so again, because by this point itachi and sarutobi would put strict policies in place on any clan in konoha who would attempt to plot a coup. It's even true in real life once a coup immediately fails the Government immediately establishes harsher rules/policies or means to prevent another attempt, that's why coup de tat are a win or lose, do or die situation either you succeed and become the new regime or fail and become imprisoned traitors or worst face the death penalty. At least it wouldn't lead to a 4th Ninja war with all Nations being affected. An ultimatum could be offered to the non-rebels of the Uchiha Clan, either stay in konoha or leave and form your own damn village, choice is theirs.

Eitherway the Elders handled the situation poorly and left itachi with a choice (Us or them?) itachi choose Us (Konoha) for HIS want of peace and stability. Genocide is still a horrendous crime eitherway you look at it, there had to be other options.

Last edited by El_Negro; 2012-01-13 at 14:17.
El_Negro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-13, 14:37   Link #72
23 gundam fan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: north carolina
[QUOTE=Sabaku Kyu;3942025]I don't think it's bull. I veto the bull vote.

You can't really categorize what Shikamaru did with what Sasuke's doing. Sasuke is obsessed revenge and would do anything to see that he gets it: Betray his village, hurt or kill loyal friends and innocents, ally himself with lowest scum around--anything to get back at the people that cause him to lose his clan. Shika wouldn't have sought revenge if it meant betraying his village or purposely hurting people he cared about. He did disobey a direct order to go after Akatsuki, but I don't think he was anywhere remotely close to the path Sasuke was taking, if he was, Kakashi would've given him the same speech he gave Sasuke about revenge instead of aiding him.

I'm not going to sugarcoat and say that what Shika, Ino and Chouji did wasn't revenge, but I've always seen it more about them taking personal responsibility. Asuma and Shika were part of a mission to eliminate two Akatsuki threats and Asuma died trying accomplish the mission. It always seemed that what was ultimately important to Shika and co. wasn't getting revenge on Hidan and Kakuzu, but as his pupils, finishing what Asuma started to honor him.




The Uchica weren't murdered because of the Kyuubi attack...this is the reason they were segregated. The clan was killed because they were planning a coup against Konoha. And there was really no need for a trial because there was no doubt about their conspiracy. Sandaime actually tried to negotiate with the Uchiha through diplomacy. When that failed, Danzou and the Elders took matters into their own hands--or rather put it into Itachi's hands.



I agree with that, though I'll admit Itachi was in a really desperate situation. From what it seems like, the Uchiha were pretty adamant about rebelling against Konoha. There's no telling what would've happened had the coup actually happened.

But at best, I would consider Itachi a victim.[/QUOTEtj

this is just something to throw out there, a what if situation. so what if kakuza and hidan did something total tragic to another village. and the village in question had a really good reason to go after them. and tsunada tells team asuma you cant go after then due to political reasons, such as the village that was hurt by the akatski would be willing to go to war if they could not be the ones to deal with them. the question is, well does team asuma do nothing, who gets the call here. the point is in naruto world the people sasuke is after are powerful in a political sense, so if he goes after them its bad because it may start a war, but if its just a criminal the atitude is hey its ok to go after them. but really what is sasuke supposed to do, just forget about it because of political reasons, this is his family we are talking about. who is going to sit on this and not do something about it.

Last edited by 23 gundam fan; 2012-01-13 at 14:39. Reason: selling
23 gundam fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-13, 21:03   Link #73
Sabaku Kyu
The Ironman
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Negro View Post
Okay so your'e saying basically to kill everyone off because of the actions of one person right?
I'm saying that for someone who's only concern is securing Konoha from the power Sharingan is capable of that's the clearest course of action. And it's the only one ensured to be permanent. It's horrifying, but yeah, it makes sense to me

Quote:
I can tell you that there are some of the people who live with the Uchiha Clan who do not inherit/possess their powerful abilities, those could be people who marry into the Clan, these people who do not inherit their abilities but still serve as members of the clan such as Sasuke's Aunt or Uncle who run their Gift Shop (I don't see them performing any Fireball Jutsu's), some who do the small grunt work or like his Mother who's probably a stay at home mom.
Sasuke's stay at home mom was a jounin-ranked nin, but that's besides the point. I doubt Danzou and the Elders wanted the clan dead because they believed every single Uchiha down to the last man, woman and child was evil. And I don't believe that's why Itachi chose to kill the clan. As long as the clan survived the future threat would be there. Yeah, Sasuke's aunt & uncle are harmless. What about their children? Their grandchildren? The Kyuubi and the threat of rebellion pushed those fears to the breaking point. It's always seemed strange to me that Sarutobi didn't do more to try to stop it, but hey, maybe he felt there was no choice left either.

Itachi left Sasuke alive, but he wanted the Uchiha legacy to die. That wouldn't happen as long as there was a clan to rally the Uchiha. Madara's was the true enemy of course, but even as dangerous as he is, he's still a single, tangible threat. The clan was scores, maybe hundreds of uncertainties and each generation brings more. A Uchiha might be a loyal shinobi like Obito, or they could become the next Madara.

But I guess this is better left for the Itachi hero/villain thread...

Quote:
And I'm pretty sure that if the Uchiha rebellion was stomped the first time by itachi and sarutobi, they would dare not try a second time or it would probably take a very long time too to do so again, because by this point itachi and sarutobi would put strict policies in place on any clan in konoha who would attempt to plot a coup.
How would they do that? As Konoha's elite police force, the Uchiha were already the ones enforcing Konoha's laws. Plus, it was Konoha's harsh policies that drove them to plot rebellion in the first place. They're going to remedy that by being even stricter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan View Post
the point is in naruto world the people sasuke is after are powerful in a political sense, so if he goes after them its bad because it may start a war, but if its just a criminal the atitude is hey its ok to go after them. but really what is sasuke supposed to do, just forget about it because of political reasons, this is his family we are talking about. who is going to sit on this and not do something about it.
The problem is that Sasuke simply doesn't give a damn...about anything. Politics, friendships, cute puppies and kittens... he could care less about all that. That attitude has him stepping on a lot of toes. No one seemed to fundamentally have a problem with his revenge (at least until it became about destroying Konoha) Even when Sasuke killed Danzou hardly anyone seemed bothered by it. But to get at Danzou he raided a shinobi summit, sliced up a bunch of samurai and picked a fight with all the Kages at once. He pretty much wrecks whatever gets in his way .
__________________



Sabaku Kyu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-13, 22:04   Link #74
El_Negro
El_Negro
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Caribbean
Quote:
I'm saying that for someone who's only concern is securing Konoha from the power Sharingan is capable of that's the clearest course of action. And it's the only one ensured to be permanent. It's horrifying, but yeah, it makes sense to me

Dude that's really sad to resort to such a cruel method, but doing this action to me means that person does not really have a conscience or doesn't really give a damn about human-life, seriously. This is Narutoverse and it's ninja's we're dealing with so the actions would be very militarist in nature, cruel but effective.

At lease I could give Itachi credit for that, in that he suffered internally after doing such an inhumane act.

Quote:
Sasuke's stay at home mom was a jounin-ranked nin, but that's besides the point.
I want proof of that

Quote:
I doubt Danzou and the Elders wanted the clan dead because they believed every single Uchiha down to the last man, woman and child was evil. And I don't believe that's why Itachi chose to kill the clan. As long as the clan survived the future threat would be there. Yeah, Sasuke's aunt & uncle are harmless. What about their children? Their grandchildren? The Kyuubi and the threat of rebellion pushed those fears to the breaking point. It's always seemed strange to me that Sarutobi didn't do more to try to stop it, but hey, maybe he felt there was no choice left either.
That my friend is called FEAR, well fear of the unknown, it's just like GOWIII when Zeus became fearful of Kratos after Kratos kicked Aries ass, so he took front first before Kratos rampage got out of control but this is Kratos and eventually they all got pwned

But this is where the Hokage could've made a huge difference, as I said before after the 9 tails attack the Uchiha were wrongfully accused which lead to their segregation and removal from Konoha's general affairs. The Hokage and the Elders should've given them a fair shake before pointing fingers and labelling,

So answer me this if one black guy vandalizes a neighbourhood your'e saying all other black people living in the community should be punished because black people are generally dangerous and any other black person would be a threat? This is just like that movie Rosewood, where a white lady gets raped by another white male and she pins it on a poor black guy who did not know shit what was going on and because of that the rest of the whites in Rosewood decides to lynch and kill all other black persons living in Rosewood because of the supposed actions of one black guy hence they saw it fit all blacks should pay because they would eventually become very unruly and bad and threaten their safety and destabilize Rosewood, does that sound like a good reason to go open season on all blacks in that community? But your'e okay with it right? as long as Rosewood is in peace.

Hitler had the same ideology too, he saw Jewish people as well as other minorities as unfit, ungodly and a probable threat to the pure white race or Nazis hence his notable act for mass genocide on all Jews in Poland, Austria (I think) during WWII, doing that will ensure that the world would be a better place, was his action valid to ensure that the world would be better off without minorities?

I hope I'm not being too racist or being too offensive in using these examples when I'm making my point but I'm trying to comprehend why everyone is okay with the genocide killing so I'm being rational about this.

Quote:
Itachi left Sasuke alive, but he wanted the Uchiha legacy to die. That wouldn't happen as long as there was a clan to rally the Uchiha. Madara's was the true enemy of course, but even as dangerous as he is, he's still a single, tangible threat. The clan was scores, maybe hundreds of uncertainties and each generation brings more. A Uchiha might be a loyal shinobi like Obito, or they could become the next Madara.
Exactly how can anyone tell whose the next Madara? Fear of the uncertainty, but still that's no valid reason for committing Genocide. Let's flip the script suppose one of the Senju Clan members or any other clan in Konoha becomes even worst than Madara and started a coup de tat then what, kill off his entire clan as well right? The point is there would always be another Madara or Harishima,we don't know, it just like Al Queada, Bin Ladin's dead but there might always be another Bin Ladin and he/she could be worse.



Quote:
How would they do that? As Konoha's elite police force, the Uchiha were already the ones enforcing Konoha's laws. Plus, it was Konoha's harsh policies that drove them to plot rebellion in the first place. They're going to remedy that by being even stricter?
If I remember correctly the 2nd Hokage establish that as puppet organisation to keep them in check and to make the Uchiha "feel important in the village". I already wrote one ultimatum whereby the remaining members of the clan could either choose to stay in konoha or leave peacefully, quietly and not work with konoha and form their own village, it's that simple. If you don't like it, leave. I'm pretty sure Sarutobi being a rational and reasonable Hokage who would want to avoid meaningless bloodshed and strife would opt for this. Besides Sasuke even said himself where Konoha didn't really want the Uchiha around and were being very prejudical towards the clan.

Last edited by El_Negro; 2012-01-13 at 22:51.
El_Negro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-13, 23:24   Link #75
Akashin
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Somewhere
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Negro View Post
I want proof of that
I looked around but I couldn't find any concrete source. But since everywhere I looked was consistent in calling her a jonin, added on to the fact that much of what we know of her came from the databooks, I'm guessing that info was in one of the databooks. I won't say that for certain though, if only for lack of a definitive source.

Quote:
So answer me this if one black guy vandalizes a neighbourhood your'e saying all other black people living in the community should be punished because black people are generally dangerous and any other black person would be a threat? This is just like that movie Rosewood, where a white lady gets raped by another white male and she pins it on a poor black guy who did not know shit what was going on and because of that the rest of the whites in Rosewood decides to lynch and kill all other black persons living in Rosewood because of the supposed actions of one black guy hence they saw it fit all blacks should pay because they would eventually become very unruly and bad and threaten their safety and destabilize Rosewood, does that sound like a good reason to go open season on all blacks in that community? But your'e okay with it right? as long as Rosewood is in peace.

Hitler had the same ideology too, he saw Jewish people as well as other minorities as unfit, ungodly and a probable threat to the pure white race or Nazis hence his notable act for mass genocide on all Jews in Poland, Austria (I think) during WWII, doing that will ensure that the world would be a better place, was his action valid to ensure that the world would be better off without minorities?
Huh? How is that argument remotely relevant? The Uchiha weren't under suspicion because of the actions of one guy (well, they were during the 2nd's time, but that's not what you're talking about), and they weren't slaughtered for that reason either. So I'm not sure what the point of this argument is.

Quote:
I hope I'm not being too racist or being too offensive in using these examples when I'm making my point but I'm trying to comprehend why everyone is okay with the genocide killing so I'm being rational about this.

Exactly how can anyone tell whose the next Madara? Fear of the uncertainty, but still that's no valid reason for committing Genocide. Let's flip the script suppose one of the Senju Clan members or any other clan in Konoha becomes even worst than Madara and started a coup de tat then what, kill off his entire clan as well right? The point is there would always be another Madara or Harishima,we don't know, it just like Al Queada, Bin Ladin's dead but there might always be another Bin Ladin and he/she could be worse.
Who's calling genocide an acceptable thing? That isn't the case at all; it's just that with the rising tension between Konoha and the Uchiha, it was just about the only option they had. Right or wrong, it was still preferable to a civil war that, given enough time to snowball, could have ended in far more deaths.

Quote:
If I remember correctly the 2nd Hokage establish that as puppet organisation to keep them in check and to make the Uchiha "feel important in the village". I already wrote one ultimatum whereby the remaining members of the clan could either choose to stay in konoha or leave peacefully, quietly and not work with konoha and form their own village, it's that simple. If you don't like it, leave. I'm pretty sure Sarutobi being a rational and reasonable Hokage who would want to avoid meaningless bloodshed and strife would opt for this. Besides Sasuke even said himself where Konoha didn't really want the Uchiha around and were being very prejudical towards the clan.
"We're not giving you anymore power, so either be happy with what you've got or get out."

Yeah, sounds like a fantastic way to avoid hostilities to me. <_<
Akashin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-14, 02:11   Link #76
El_Negro
El_Negro
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Caribbean
Quote:
Huh? How is that argument remotely relevant? The Uchiha weren't under suspicion because of the actions of one guy (well, they were during the 2nd's time, but that's not what you're talking about), and they weren't slaughtered for that reason either. So I'm not sure what the point of this argument is.
The actions of Tobi which caused the 9 tails village disaster in Konoha eventually lead to the Uchiha Clan massacre because Danzo and the Elders suspected an Uchiha was behind the disaster since the Uchiha can control the 9 tails, this immediately lead to the Uchiha Clan facing segregation and eventual shunning from the village which lead them wanting to rebel against Konoha which lead to the Danzo and the Elders taking drastic measures a la itachi.

The Uchiha Clan didn't or probably couldn't get a chance to voice their concerns after the 9 tails attack, they were immediately suspected and shunned by the Elders which lead to their feelings of contempt and their attempted coup which failed. Hence the actions of one (Tobi: An Uchiha) lead to the demise of all (The Uchiha Clan), which is why they should've just pack up and leave the village immediately after that disaster instead of facing poor treatment causing them to plot a coup.

And you even stated it yourself they were under suspicion but I think it's after the 9 tails attack that the suspicion went from bad to worse and not during the 2nd Hokage's time.
El_Negro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-14, 02:22   Link #77
El_Negro
El_Negro
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Caribbean
Quote:
I looked around but I couldn't find any concrete source. But since everywhere I looked was consistent in calling her a jonin, added on to the fact that much of what we know of her came from the databooks, I'm guessing that info was in one of the databooks. I won't say that for certain though, if only for lack of a definitive source.
The mangaka is the main valid source of proof for me, those databooks are moot. In most of the Naruto Chapters I've seen so far with Sasuke's Mom was she being an obedient Housewife, probably back in her heydays she was a jounin but we cannot say for sure now can we? Speaking of which are all of the rookie 9 parents still in active ninja duty because the only team whose parents still perform ninja duties were from Asuma's team InoShikaCho (well their dads at least).
El_Negro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-14, 08:22   Link #78
Akashin
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Somewhere
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Negro View Post
The actions of Tobi which caused the 9 tails village disaster in Konoha eventually lead to the Uchiha Clan massacre because Danzo and the Elders suspected an Uchiha was behind the disaster since the Uchiha can control the 9 tails, this immediately lead to the Uchiha Clan facing segregation and eventual shunning from the village which lead them wanting to rebel against Konoha which lead to the Danzo and the Elders taking drastic measures a la itachi.

The Uchiha Clan didn't or probably couldn't get a chance to voice their concerns after the 9 tails attack, they were immediately suspected and shunned by the Elders which lead to their feelings of contempt and their attempted coup which failed. Hence the actions of one (Tobi: An Uchiha) lead to the demise of all (The Uchiha Clan), which is why they should've just pack up and leave the village immediately after that disaster instead of facing poor treatment causing them to plot a coup.

And you even stated it yourself they were under suspicion but I think it's after the 9 tails attack that the suspicion went from bad to worse and not during the 2nd Hokage's time.
That's great, except your entire argument is that they were condemning the entire clan for the actions of one guy. Problem is that they didn't know about that one guy, and were just suspecting the clan as a whole. They didn't know about Tobi; what they knew was that they had an entire clan of people with a Dojutsu that could control the Kyuubi, and a seemingly random Kyuubi attack to find explanation for. Suspecting the one clan with the means to do exactly that seems a fairly sound assumption to make.

You can argue all day that in reality the Uchiha Clan was taken out because of one guy, and you'd be right. But because the Elders didn't know about that and were condemning the clan as a whole, that distinction really doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Negro View Post
The mangaka is the main valid source of proof for me, those databooks are moot. In most of the Naruto Chapters I've seen so far with Sasuke's Mom was she being an obedient Housewife, probably back in her heydays she was a jounin but we cannot say for sure now can we? Speaking of which are all of the rookie 9 parents still in active ninja duty because the only team whose parents still perform ninja duties were from Asuma's team InoShikaCho (well their dads at least).
...You are aware that the databooks are all information compiled by the mangaka himself, right? So unless I'm mistaken on that, yes, any information found on Mikoto in the databooks is official.
Akashin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-14, 08:48   Link #79
El_Negro
El_Negro
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Caribbean
Quote:
That's great, except your entire argument is that they were condemning the entire clan for the actions of one guy. Problem is that they didn't know about that one guy, and were just suspecting the clan as a whole. They didn't know about Tobi; what they knew was that they had an entire clan of people with a Dojutsu that could control the Kyuubi, and a seemingly random Kyuubi attack to find explanation for. Suspecting the one clan with the means to do exactly that seems a fairly sound assumption to make.

You can argue all day that in reality the Uchiha Clan was taken out because of one guy, and you'd be right. But because the Elders didn't know about that and were condemning the clan as a whole, that distinction really doesn't matter.
That's the funny thing, itachi knew about that one guy (Tobi) and said nothing, the 4th new also but unfortunately he died. What did itachi do? He kept quiet, killed his entire family save for Sasuke only to drive him hellbent on revenge and then works with Tobi, the one guy who started all of this mess to keep him in "check" which apparently he sucked at, so yeah. Itachi could've told his did Fugaku or the Elders, hell even both and it will be the Village and the Uchiha after Tobi's head. But the ugly side occured
El_Negro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-14, 09:13   Link #80
Akashin
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Somewhere
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Negro View Post
That's the funny thing, itachi knew about that one guy (Tobi) and said nothing, the 4th new also but unfortunately he died. What did itachi do? He kept quiet, killed his entire family save for Sasuke only to drive him hellbent on revenge and then works with Tobi, the one guy who started all of this mess to keep him in "check" which apparently he sucked at, so yeah. Itachi could've told his did Fugaku or the Elders, hell even both and it will be the Village and the Uchiha after Tobi's head. But the ugly side occured
Probably because he knew that telling them wouldn't be a permanent solution. While the whole suspicion thing was what drove the Uchiha to planning a coup d'etat, it was only the straw that broke the camel's back as it were; it was just thrown on top of the years of dissatisfaction the Uchiha had suffered because of the 2nd sweeping them aside. So while informing them of Tobi may have dissolved the suspicion thing (and may not have; even if Tobi wasn't affiliated with the Uchiha when he did it, he did do it using the Sharingan), it would have done nothing to solve the issue at large. It may have opened the road to some measure of negotiation, but there's no telling how much that would accomplish.
Akashin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.