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Old 2004-12-14, 08:30   Link #1061
Icehawk
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We HAVE to look at fictional characters with at least some level of realistic view. Everyone does because we have to find someway to relate to them otherwise the characters would be nothing. Granted some anime and movies are not meant to be taken so seriously and are just for fun like average cartoons, but others such as Elfen Lied are VERY serious with heavy moral dillemas in them like you said. Moral dillemas are exactly what Im talking about in regards to Lucy. As I said I really like her character, and I felt deeply for her in those times she was abused and ridiculed, however, the creators of the show also took her character to the next level (which is a good thing as it adds more depth) by getting her to go TOO far and having her take her anger out on a number of innocent people and IMO, they did this specifically for the purpose of getting the viewer to REALLY think about the character before passing final judgement. Remember those random families that got slaughtered just so she could occupy their house for a few days? and when she heartlessly ripped Nana's arms and legs off? When it comes to such serious subject matter like that, I cannot help BUT look at it from a realistic and moral viewpoint.

Quote:
Plus, if we want to start looking at anime characters with a realistic view, tons more anime characters should "face justice" before Lucy (ie. No.35/Mariko for her indifference to life, Bando for his reckless for other's life other than his own, every bad guy in Dragon Ball Z especially those who blew up whole cities or in some instances, entire planets, hell, even some of the good guys too should die too)
Those characters DID "face justice". Mariko got her arm blown off then got blown up, Bando got his arms and eyes ruined and then got easily bitchslapped a second time by "his prey". Most of the scientists or others who abused the diclonius at the facility along with director Kurama also faced their "justice" so to speak by getting killed off. Every action has consequences of some kind. From a moral perspective, something, "should" happen to them and in most cases it actually does. LOL hell come to think of it, even the characters in DBZ all faced the music by getting killed off (some of them multiple times, good and bad) or having the crap beaten out of them at various points of the show.

BAH, but anyways enough rambling. In Lucy's case, some of her killing was understandable, but others times like when she just killed those families right in their own houses, along with Kouta's sister and his father right in front of his eyes, that was going too far and so morally she "should" pay a price, and based on what happens in the last episode, she DID pay her price by chosing to leave Kouta and face the firing squad. Thats my take on it at least.

She MAY have survived but we don't know for sure yet. If she did survive thats fine with me because she is a cool character and in the end was genuinly sorry for what she did, but if she does come back I think it would be better if she no longer had the ability to use her Vectors or at least be limited with them.

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Actually, my "ridiculous logic" is "girls get off easier than guys",
Hehe, if Elfen Lied was anything to go by its that girl characters DO NOT get off easier than guys. Thats another thing that made this show interesting in comparison to alot of other shows, it broke that tradition.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-14 at 14:44.
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Old 2004-12-14, 22:49   Link #1062
Jorin
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**UNMARKED SPOILERS AHEAD**
(I saw other unmarked spoilers here so I'm working on the assumption that after 1000 replies we're assuming that people reading up to this point will know the story)

I really like how Lucy developed. I tend to agree with Sushi that since she had such an abusive past it's realistic to think she would kill people in that way. The people that had controlled her and abused her were just pests to her and she got rid of them in the same way we'd pour boiling water on an ant colony or wasp nest near our houses.

Remember she didn't think of herself as a human either ("humans are foolish"). She saw herself as a different species so that would affect the way she carried out her little war. I also agree with Sushi that since she has a superpower it really changes the way she sees things and acts.

It was only Kouta that made an emotional connection with her and brought her back to reality. This was what I thought was neat about her. She didn't mind slaughtering people who were in her way, but she had feelings for people once she was able to care about them.

Was she cruel to Nana, who's the same species as she is? Yes, but again, super powers + being in danger of getting captured = using superpwers to escape. Also, Lucy + angry = limbs flying. It's just how things work.

I think she was remorseful for what she did to Kouta and his family but not really towards the countless people she killed (except maybe the people whose houses she broke into). As I said they were controlling her and getting in her way. She was trying to survive.

I really liked the last scene she had with Kouta. People said it was cheesy and unrealistic but to me it was a neat display of character development. I like how this anime put its characters in such bizarre situations. It makes it harder to judge their actions and choices but it's certainly interesting.
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Old 2004-12-15, 16:02   Link #1063
Forbin
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They hated it because there wasn't any horizontal action going on.

Also don't hate lucy. Look at Nana, she was raised in the lab all that time and when she got beat up a bit...RED EYES here we come.
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Old 2004-12-15, 17:30   Link #1064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin
They hated it because there wasn't any horizontal action going on.

Also don't hate lucy. Look at Nana, she was raised in the lab all that time and when she got beat up a bit...RED EYES here we come.
Well, the interesting thing is when you compare Nana to Lucy, they both got experimented upon and both went through some serious suffering. Licy started killing everyone off while Nana didn't I can't remember Nana hurting anybody throughout the anime. somehow I think this is trying to tell either one of two things : 1. If they have in such dire circomstances something to rely on (in essence her "father") they can keep their sanity OR 2. It could've been in Nana's character not to be violent even hough she herself didn't see anything else in her entire life.
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Old 2004-12-15, 17:43   Link #1065
Dr Yuya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk
I hate to burst your bubble man but you have no idea that the sillouette is actually Nyu/Lucy. It could very well be that young scientist chick that set out to look for Kouta after finding his picture in the binder she dropped. Personally I would kinda prefer if Lucy was dead. Though she was a very interesting character she WAS also a cold blooded killer who didnt think twice to abuse her power and mutilate anyone she felt like. People like that quite frankly don't really deserve to live even if they had some good inside them, she chose to embrace that evil within her and abuse her power and for that she HAS to pay the piper one way or the other at some point.

Now don't get me wrong, im not saying I would be pissed if she did infact survive as she was an interesting character and Nyu was really adorable and all that, just that I would prefer it from a moral perspective if she was dead, or at least have her without the ability to use her Vectors now since her other horn got shot off. If she is to live then she has to be limited in some way from now on since giving her a get of jail free card without some kind of penalty for her crimes would just be wrong.

As for what I think of the ending myself, Im also quite happy with it but not for the same reasons, for me it was that she and Kouta were finally able to make their peace and have a heartfelt, tearful goodbye and then seeing her go out with the bang she had coming. That sillouette at the door MIGHT be her, but we cannot say for sure one way or the other.
I most definately agree. I had all but given up on finding anyone who watched Elfen Lied and sensibly saw Lucy for what she really was. For that I congratulate you.
I've seen this "I had a bad childhood and so now I rip peoples heads off and it's okay" mentality in other anime before, and fans always seem to find those villians to just be "misunderstood". Soujiro (Rurouni Kenshin), Gaara (Naruto), and now Lucy, who is the worst of them all. It's not right, and it doesn't even begin to justify anything, but so many fans buy into it with sympathy. I just don't get it, I guess it's just a "thing" with the younger generation today.
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Old 2004-12-15, 22:10   Link #1066
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before i start watching this series , i just wanted to know if it has a crappy ending??? , i hate getting into an anime , only to find out that the ending really sucks
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Old 2004-12-15, 22:32   Link #1067
7thMethuselah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil-samurai
before i start watching this series , i just wanted to know if it has a crappy ending??? , i hate getting into an anime , only to find out that the ending really sucks
No it has a good ending, the anime is well-done even though a few things could be guessed to easilly. Besides I'm betting after a few minutes into the show you won't care about the ending any more, Elfen Lied is rather addictive (not to mention slightly violent ). Lucy, the main character is so interesting you'll sit out the entire show anyway;
Oh, best not to watch this show with your mom and dad around, they might not approve
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Old 2004-12-15, 22:49   Link #1068
Icehawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil-samurai
before i start watching this series , i just wanted to know if it has a crappy ending??? , i hate getting into an anime , only to find out that the ending really sucks
As I said in an earlier post, I thought the ending was good, but ultimately only you can be the judge. The series is DEFINATELY worth watching I can assure you, just make sure you prepare yourself for some disturbing imagery.
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Old 2004-12-15, 22:49   Link #1069
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Lucy did not kill everyone in cold blood, Those Extras in red shirts(Well Light Blue) armed with MP-5's she killed where not in cold blood, more in self defance. And that was lucy who broke into people homes, hmmm.?

Edit:
The ending was kind of sad as well, Almost made me cry. But it was left as a cliff hanger.

I wish there was some horizontal action!

Edit: Also Elfen Lied is alot like Stephen King's Carrie. But Lucy would Kick Carries ass.
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Old 2004-12-15, 23:05   Link #1070
Icehawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaver4k
Lucy did not kill everyone in cold blood, Those Extras in red shirts(Well Light Blue) armed with MP-5's she killed where not in cold blood, more in self defance. And that was lucy who broke into people homes, hmmm.?
No one said anything about Lucy killing EVERYONE in cold blood and no one said anything was wrong with killing the soldiers or anyone who threatned her.

Let me some up Lucy's heartless crimes for you:

1) 2 entire families utterly butchered just so she could occupy their houses for a few days. They didnt threaten her or anything, she just walked into the houses and killed them all without giving a second thought.

2) Kisaragi, the kind but clumbsy assistant to Director Kurama Lucy just ripped her head right off, not cleanly slicing it, but RIPPED it off right in front of him and then proceeded to use her corpse as a shield (sure its a cool scene to watch but its a heartless unnecessary crime on Lucy's part nonetheless.)

3) Kouta's sister and father (Duh) Plus several other innocent people at the fair.

4) Tearing Nana's arms and legs off one by one while standing over her. Such a level of brutality was not even REMOTELY necessary for defending herself. Again, cool to watch, in a sick twisted sort of way, but also another heartless and unnecessary thing to do, especially to one of her own "kind".

Those are the main cases raised against Lucy's character, everyone else she killed is more or less understandable.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-15 at 23:19.
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Old 2004-12-15, 23:15   Link #1071
Dr Yuya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk
No one said anything about Lucy killing EVERYONE in cold blood and no one said anything was wrong with killing the soldiers or anyone who threatned her.

If nobody has said it yet, I will. Those soldiers she killed where fighting a good fight, to keep her contained and away from society. If I ruthlessly murder a bunch of people and the police come after me, it isn't okay for me to kill them just to defend myself.

Actually, I don't think a single one of Lucys kills were justified at all, not the bully kids, not the soldiers, nobody. Number 35 would have been a just kill I suppose, but when it came to that she couldn't even succeed. I just have never seen a single reason to belive she's anything deeper than a ruthless murderer.
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Old 2004-12-15, 23:19   Link #1072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk

4) Tearing Nana's arms and legs off one by one while standing over her. Such a level of brutality was not even REMOTELY necessary for defending herself. Again, cool to watch, in a sick twisted sort of way, but also another heartless and unnecessary thing to do, especially to one of her own "kind".

Everyone else she killed can pretty well be summed up as either self defense or understandable.
Well Nana was trying to take Lucy back to the base, also Nana was ordered to kill Lucy. I would count it as self defance, desipe the how she was trying to enjoy her self at the same time. Just like that other guy that tryed to kill her.

Also I dont think Lucy realy cares about what race you are.
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Old 2004-12-15, 23:40   Link #1073
Icehawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaver4k
Well Nana was trying to take Lucy back to the base, also Nana was ordered to kill Lucy. I would count it as self defance, desipe the how she was trying to enjoy her self at the same time. Just like that other guy that tryed to kill her.

Also I dont think Lucy realy cares about what race you are.
My gods how stupid do you have to be not to realize that the LEVEL OF FORCE she used against Nana was COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY FOR SELF DEFENSE. She could have just knocked Nana out and escaped, but no, she WILLINGLY chose to lop her leg and FINGERS off and then on top of that chose to STAY their and stand over top of her and sadistically tear each remaining limb off one at a time. To call that self defense is just fucking ignorant.

It doesnt matter if Nana was trying to take her back, the level of force used made the action morally wrong and far beyond what can be considered self defense.

Edit. Forgive my flaming temperment but I just got off work and am fairly tired and not in the mood to deal with bullshit.
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Old 2004-12-16, 00:11   Link #1074
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meh... i watch anime to escape from reality, not to be in reality
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Old 2004-12-16, 02:17   Link #1075
Icehawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maceart
meh... i watch anime to escape from reality, not to be in reality
Wha? nobody here is even talking about whether the show is realistic or not.

The issue is the morality and reasoning behind Lucy's killings. Whether the show is real or fantasy is completely irrelevant.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-16 at 02:29.
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Old 2004-12-16, 02:40   Link #1076
Guido
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Everyone, like my new avatar?

Joining the heated debate, I guess that Ice-Hawk refers to the following picture below:



For Lucy to pay for her crimes.

However, I don't want to talk much about the morality issue.

Except when she killed the second family in episode 9 due to jealousy. She eavesdropped the mother and little kids laughing and enjoying their family time.

Because Lucy never experienced family love but rather frustration and desolation, she vent their anger upon that family out of pure envy.
She could not accept or tolerate the idea of someone else spending a happy time, therefore, she wanted them to feel miserable in order for Lucy to feel less miserable; conclusion waste them right away.

And how is it that Lucy does not views herself as a human?

She shows despair, sadness, envy, anger, frustration, grief, and wants to seek out for just a happy moment. If you ask me, that's pretty human feelings and behavior.
And also when in the last episodes she means that humans are foolish, but in doing so she also insults Kouta due that he's also human. Condradictory paradox, don't you think?
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Old 2004-12-16, 04:12   Link #1077
Icehawk
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Quote:
Joining the heated debate, I guess that Ice-Hawk refers to the following picture below for Lucy to pay for her crimes.
Nah not like that, personally if I was in charge, I'm sympathetic enough to her that I'd just keep her secluded in solitary confinement in a plain room (heavily armored of course) with nothing she could manipulate. She'd be free to move around, no need for all the binding down and gaging since that doesnt stop her ability to use Vectors anyways. She'd be allowed visitation and communication rights and all that jazz so Kouta and the gang could see her whenever they want to. A case like hers is quite tragic because of the fact she had such a poor life as a kid with all that negative influence, however, she made the choice to embrace her dark side, ignorantly generalize the rest of humanity, and kill all those people that didnt deserve it and so I just cannot ignore that.

Now of course if I were in charge of making a sequel to the anime I wouldnt exactly do that. For that I would either do 3 courses of action:

1) She died from that hail of bullets that she chose to face in ep 13 and is a dead character.

2) She managed to survived but she cannot use her Vectors anymore and at the end of it all either turns herself in or is taken in.

3) She survived but she is only Nyuu now. Lucy personality is dead along with Vector ability.

Im not sure which one to choose as they would all be acceptable to me IMO, but thats the way its gotta go from this point out. No clear cut "Happily ever after" crap here. You don't spill that much blood without something coming back at you.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-16 at 04:29.
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Old 2004-12-16, 04:37   Link #1078
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Yeesh, and here I thought this whole "Lucy is cold blooded" issue was over with. There is no doubt that Lucy killed in cold blood, in fact, she killed with clear psychopathic tendencies. But like I said, animes aren't meant to be judged or measured with real life standards. When Lucy killed those families or random bystanders, the point being delivered from those scenes is display to the viewers the kind of personality Lucy has: Cold blooded and psychopathic. This is done without any forms of censoring like off-screen killshots or non-dismemberments so that the viewers can receive the best impression/impact/image of her killings.

Those dead people serves as a part of Lucy's personality/storyline developer, nothing more. The producers or the mangaka isn't going to think back later and go "oh yeah, what she did pretty much violated laws in every country in the world, let's punish her or something." When somebody said that he watched animes to escape reality, that's what he meant. It's not about what "should" happen to Lucy, if we bind her to real life laws and rules; it's about what "will" happen to her, but *without* all the real life references and considerations. And the truth is, if you watched the anime until the end, you probably developed an affection for Lucy, but much less for all those faceless guard or bystander ABCDs, and it is only natural for most of us to not want Lucy die or lose her powers (permanently at least).

Another important point is what Lucy did was REASONABLE, it's wrong, it's bad, it's downright sick and evil, but it's reasonable. That is, if *everything* in the anime actually existed, it would be *reasonable* for Lucy to do what she did. This serves well because it draws and immerses the viewers in a "believable fictional world" that allows us to connect with the characters and story even better.

Huh, I remember typing "Yeesh" then my fingers just moved on their own, I think I even used a SEMICOLON in there.
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Old 2004-12-16, 06:01   Link #1079
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thMethuselah
Well, the interesting thing is when you compare Nana to Lucy, they both got experimented upon and both went through some serious suffering. Licy started killing everyone off while Nana didn't I can't remember Nana hurting anybody throughout the anime. somehow I think this is trying to tell either one of two things : 1. If they have in such dire circomstances something to rely on (in essence her "father") they can keep their sanity OR 2. It could've been in Nana's character not to be violent even hough she herself didn't see anything else in her entire life.
well, I think Lucy has started killing everyone off before she got experimented upon. she kills people not out of revenge or self-defense, she kills people so the world can be cleansed of pests and she can have her own world. The only human being in this world that is not a pest to her is Kouta.

Of course what Lucy has done is reasonable, to diclonius at least. Just like we think that the slaughtering of pigs in slaughterhouse is fully understandable. And it's actually legal. There's no law saying non-humans cannot kill humans. She's a diclonius, she's not a homo sapien sapien, she's most likely a homo sapien superior. She's not insane, she's just not thinking in the homo sapien sapien way.
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Old 2004-12-16, 06:28   Link #1080
Icehawk
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Quote:
When Lucy killed those families or random bystanders, the point being delivered from those scenes is display to the viewers the kind of personality Lucy has: Cold blooded and psychopathic. This is done without any forms of censoring like off-screen killshots or non-dismemberments so that the viewers can receive the best impression/impact/image of her killings.
Exactly, which is why you're not supposed to be so sympathetic to her character, how hard is that to understand? You are not supposed to forget these things or just brush them off.

Quote:
Those dead people serves as a part of Lucy's personality/storyline developer, nothing more. The producers or the mangaka isn't going to think back later and go "oh yeah, what she did pretty much violated laws in every country in the world, let's punish her or something." When somebody said that he watched animes to escape reality, that's what he meant. It's not about what "should" happen to Lucy, if we bind her to real life laws and rules; it's about what "will" happen to her, but *without* all the real life references and considerations.
First of all, since telepathy doesnt exist you are in no position to speak for what the creators themselves actually think about in regards to what happens with their characters, all you can do is analyze and speculate based on what they have already done. Secondly all this talk about "not binding them to real life laws" is making me sick. Here's a hint: do you think the laws of Elfen Lieds universe are any different from our own? You think she'd get off any easier in her fictional universe than ours? Please. Elfen Lied is an anime that is conveyed in a very realistic in your face manner and as such I think its safe to say its meant to be analyzed and thought about in a serious manner.

Quote:
Another important point is what Lucy did was REASONABLE, it's wrong, it's bad, it's downright sick and evil, but it's reasonable. That is, if *everything* in the anime actually existed, it would be *reasonable* for Lucy to do what she did. This serves well because it draws and immerses the viewers in a "believable fictional world" that allows us to connect with the characters and story even better.
No shit sherlock, everything that happens has a reason behind it. Unfortunatly in Lucy's case, her reasoning behind alot of her actions is FLAWED. Doesnt matter if she's not real. Just because something has "reasoning" behind it does not mean it is suddenly free of scrutiny or criticism or hell in anyway right.

In the end. Lucy is a tragic character who had shit constantly thrown her way and in a typical act of Juvanile human ignorance took her anger out on the world and abused her powers and ended up killing alot of innocent people. Since the situation is set up like this, you cannot just ignore or brush off the bad things she did. You have to feel sympathy for her tragic childhood BUT ALSO remember that she made the mistake of taking things way too far for ignorant reasons and as such you should not be awarding her with complete forgiveness because she simply does not deserve it.

She knows it, Kouta knows it, and anyone who actually looks back on her character should know this.





Look long and hard at those images next time you think Lucy shoud just be let off scott free. She fucking chose that path and she damn well does NOT deserve to be let off 100% free in ANYONES eyes.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-16 at 06:53.
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