AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2004-12-16, 06:53   Link #1081
Dr.Ozzie
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
You know, icy baby... I could probably follow the mold of some of the folks I agree with in this debate and write a long, well-thought-out response, but being a burnt-out literature major in the midst of finals week, and given how heated you're getting over this, I think I'll just say that I absolutely can't take you seriously with that avatar.

Welp, I'm pretty much done here. Later, all!
Dr.Ozzie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-16, 21:43   Link #1082
Sushi-Y
湯音カワユス~
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 29
Woo... I guess you sort of missed my point, ne? If I was watching the anime while thinking about rights and wrongs and laws and morals and rules and all those other stuff, then of course Lucy deserves to be punished, anybody who watched the anime would agree. However, there's this little thing called suspension of disbelief. We watch animes for it's engrossing story, and for it's interesting characters, we're meant to watch it stripped down to our basic emotions: anger, sadness, joy, fear, sympathy, etc. too. Without all those real life implications burdening us.

I sympathize with Lucy because of her past experiences, enough for me so that I can find myself reasonably justify what she did. And as such, while I recognize what she did was wrong, I *don't* want to see her meet a sad end to her already sad life. Soft, maybe, but as a Crim major and worked with police and social workers, I've already seen hundreds of sick and twisted real life cases out there, so I enjoy being soft for a fictional character that I sympathize with.

Anyways, I don't feel like giving another long winded response (already getting long), I'm dropping this now, everyone's free to express their own opinions, but getting into a serious argument is just kinda silly.
Sushi-Y is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-16, 22:06   Link #1083
Icehawk
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 32
Well, I guess this just shows us the difference between our outlook on various things. Im all for just kicking back and suspending disbelief. Lol Im friggin sci-fi nut with star wars and anime on my mind 24/7 (lol not really but you get the idea) , I do it all the time.

However, for me personally, when I see an anime like Elfen Lied, their are just certain things that I can't ignore or blindly let go of because of the fact its so in your face and so serious. In essence I become very passionate you could say, about the subject matter because of the impact that it has and how it relates to my own views and emotions.

Also, another interesting thing to note is that for me "suspension of disbelief" doesnt just mean kick back and enjoy the ride, it also means ignore the unrealism of certain elements (ie super powers etc,etc) and just assume that the fictional world in question is real for the purpose of debate. On other BBS forums ive visited this is the typical definition for "suspenion of disbelief." We're all fans of the shows and so for fun we "suspend disbelief" and analyze and debate various aspects of the shows or movies whether its the technology and science behind it or the moral or ethical dillemas in them.

Anyways, its been an interesting discussion and I respect your opinion. I love Elfen Lied and hope to hell ADV releases it soon. It is one hell of an anime.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-17 at 02:58.
Icehawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 10:36   Link #1084
Elbowlick
Sakura Fan
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
This thread needs more Nana!







More: http://manga.clone-army.org/nana.php

Anyway, IceHawk, I'd disagree that she killed 'innocent' people. After all, those special forces and doctors were all conducting inhuman experiments on small children, killing off babies (well, at least Kurama did, but the other doctors certainly supported it), and generally did not place a very high value on human (or diclonius) life.

When I look at Elfen Lied, I don't see the show even asking you to forgive Lucy. It's not interested in forgiveness. Mind you, Kouta and Lucy might be interested in forgiveness and forgiving, but the message of the show certainly isn't that. Rather, Elfen Lied is about rebalancing everyone's Karma -- Karmic debts are repaid, and moral accounts are settled. You really only need to look at Nana, Mariko, and Kurama's end to see that. Heck, you even see that in the bit-characters like Mariko's caretaker: although she considers herself Mariko's mom, she is repaid for imprisoning Mariko with death, and Mariko is repaid for killing her caretaker by losing an arm, and being turned into a weapon to capture Lucy. (Aside: And note that Kuruma and Mariko only get to reconcile at the cost of their lives, at the end).

When it comes to Lucy, you can see the same kind of story playing out along the entire series. At the beginning she's a smart girl who believes in treating people humanely, becomes dirtied after deciding that humans are worthless and kills a bunch of people, and since she doesn't end up dying in the end, though, I'd say she end up being *just short* of breaking even... but that suits Lucy well. Living with the weight of her past deeds, and with Kouta's imouto's death hanging over her head, it's hard to say that it isn't a fitting end. She's certainly not being forgiven for anything; Lucy knows she can't be forgiven. And Kouta doesn't forgive her. But what *does* happen, is that her Karmic balance sheet gets a little closer to evening out. She'll neve balance it out, but that's the weight she has to bear.

So, in short, in my view, Lucy's story (and the show in general) is about karmic rebalancing, not forgiveness, law, justice, or anything like that. To look for those kinds of messages is to miss the point of the show.

------

You can see this kind of thing happening in shows like Kimi Ga Nozoumu Eien, as well. People are thrown into a strange circumstance, they're stained with great misdeeds, and spend the entire series stuggling and suffering while trying to balance things out. No one is innocent, but it's hard to blame any one of them for their actions. It's rather like watching a train accident happen in slow motion, over 14 episodes. It makes for great drama, but when people call it a romance show, again, I think they rather miss the point, too... it's a show about the settling of accounts, debts, and terrible circumstances -- Anything about 'forgiveness' only serves as a small weight to help balance the karma sheet; it's not an end within itself.
Elbowlick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 10:48   Link #1085
dreamless
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbowlick
Anyway, IceHawk, I'd disagree that she killed 'innocent' people. After all, those special forces and doctors were all conducting inhuman experiments on small children, killing off babies (well, at least Kurama did, but the other doctors certainly supported it), and generally did not place a very high value on human (or diclonius) life.
err... Lucy surely killed plenty of innocent people, like those families she killed, those people at the fair, and Kouta's sister and father of course.

I'm not sure about the karmic balance stuff, we never need to balance out our karma for killing pigs and eating them. Why should a superior lifeform balance out karma for killing inferior lifeforms?

For the theme of the show, I guess the title Elfen Lied speaks it well already. Beings from a different (and superior) species in the human society.
dreamless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 11:11   Link #1086
Icehawk
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 32
Quote:
I'm not sure about the karmic balance stuff, we never need to balance out our karma for killing pigs and eating them. Why should a superior lifeform balance out karma for killing inferior lifeforms?
I would hardly consider a "diclonius" to be all that superior and definately NOT deserving to be considered above human law or anything like that. They still have all the limitations and physical fragility and emotional weaknesses that a standard human does and their intelligence is no different than a humans. Plus the little fact they can breed with and look just like us save for one feature. Its nothing like comparing a Human to pig.

To consider them to be so different and separate from us is ridiculous and is completely counter to what we see and in fact one of the central messages from the show; The fact that they are NOT so different and so deserve to be treated with the same love and respect you would a fellow human. At least thats one of the basic messages I got, and it seems rather self evident. Kinda like how in X-Men, the "mutants" are for all intensive purposes HUMANS that really deserve to be treated as such.



EDIT: Eldowick, if you'd read my posts you'd see I wasnt referring to the killing of the soldiers or the bad scientists, but anyways, that debate is over and I don't wish to dive back into it since I've made my points as clear as I can and whether you agree with them or not is up to you.

However on a separate note, your idea about the whole "Karmic balancing" in the show is actually an interesting take on it, something I didnt think of.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-17 at 11:35.
Icehawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 11:35   Link #1087
dreamless
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
well, they have psychic vector hands, they have instinctive desire to kill humans while intinctively friendly to other animals, so I won't say they are humans. Humans have instinctively cruel to other animals. Judging by the title, they are meant to be something similar to elves I guess. Also Karma is different from social laws and things. Actually now I think about it, if we go by the concept of Karma as in Buddhism, then you indeed need to pay for killing and eating pigs because of Karma

As far as I see, there's no major theme like "forgiveness" or "karma" in this series. You are putting too much emphasis on Lucy, while in the show it has a lot to do with Nana and Mariko and the other characters. Really, it's not that focused on Lucy. So I'd say it's more about beings different from humans in a human society, rather than some personal forgiveness or karma stuff about Lucy. How many episodes out of the 13 has anything even remotely to do with Lucy's "karma"? 2 to 3 episodes at most. that's hardly a main theme or focus.
dreamless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 11:45   Link #1088
Icehawk
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
well, they have psychic vector hands, they have instinctive desire to kill humans while intinctively friendly to other animals, so I won't say they are humans. Humans have instinctively cruel to other animals. Judging by the title, they are meant to be something similar to elves I guess. Also Karma is different from social laws and things. Actually now I think about it, if we go by the concept of Karma as in Buddhism, then you actually indeed need to pay for killing and eating pigs because of Karma
Vectors are just that, Vectors, a power, just like the X-Men have crazy powers that make them superior in combat. That doesnt make them above humanity in terms of how they should be treated and how they should be expected to treat other people in kind, Ive already explained this anyways so I don't know why I need to repeat it. Thats just the way it is.

Also, humans DO NOT instinctively wish to be cruel to other animals at all. Hunting them for the purpose of food and survival is completely different from having a burning desire to kill and torture and mutilate which is what you seem to be confusing it with.

As for the Karma thing, I never said I fully agree with it, just that I thought it was an interesting take on the whole thing.
Icehawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 12:04   Link #1089
dreamless
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
no, I mean human kids playing with ants, dragonflys, little birds, etc. etc. that kind of behavior is actually not exclusive to humans. it's quite common among other animals too. Diclonius have the instinctive desire to kill humans while not harming other animals even when attacked, that's definitely different from humans.

Why Diclonius are expected to treat humans in kind when they have instinctive desire to kill humans? And sure they are capable of human emotions and can mate with humans, lifeforms under the same family can mate with each other, but that doesn't mean two species under the same family can't be natural enemies of each other. Heck, horses and donkeys can mate and have offsprings, lions and tigers can mate and have offsprings, but they are different species for sure. And tigers don't follow lions' rules, donkeys don't follow horses' rules. Also it's natural for an evolved species to have traits of the species they evolve from.

X-Men are not homo sapiens, they are homo superiors, they are a different species from humans, that's the official word as far as I know, and if they want to break away from human society, they can. That's why they are a superior species. Also I think species like homo habilis and homo erectus are not considered humans. For laws and society rules, they are all man-made laws and rules, ie. we humans made them. If you let pigs write laws they'll forbid humans to eat them for sure, if they can write that is

More on the theme of the series, let's see, for the 13 episodes of time, Lucy gets about 4 episodes' worth of time, Nana gets about 3 episodes, Mariko and Kurama gets about 2, Yuuka gets 1-2, Mayu gets 1-2, so yup Lucy gets the most time since she's the main character, but the show has spread its time over all the characters quite well that I don't think you can say the theme is just about Lucy.

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-12-17 at 12:32.
dreamless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 12:48   Link #1090
Icehawk
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 32
Fracking chrixt on a stick here we go again....

Quote:
Why Diclonius are expected to treat humans in kind when they have instinctive desire to kill humans? And sure they are capable of human emotions and can mate with humans, lifeforms under the same family can mate with each other, but that doesn't mean two species under the same family can't become natural enemies of each other. Heck, horses and donkeys can mate and have offsprins, lions and tigers can mate and have offsprings, but they are different species for sure. And tigers don't follow lions' rules, donkeys don't follow horses' rules. Also it's natural for an evolved species to have traits of the species they evolve from.
Even if we assume they are completely different species (which they are not anyways) the simple fact they are fellow intelligent sentients means that they deserve to be treated with the same basic rights that we do. Your animal examples are false analogies since those species are A) Not intelligent and B) They produce sterile offspring and arent even natural enemies anyways. Its a pretty safe bet to assume that if animals were intelligent on our level that they would have laws that would govern their behavior toward eachother since Violence based on race and ideas of racial superiority are simply FUCKING WRONG and counter productive to a society of intelligent beings whether they are human or not.

Quote:
X-Men are not homo sapiens, they are homo superior, they are a different species from humans, that's the official word as far as I know, and if they wants to break away from human society, they can. That's why they are a superior species. For laws and society rules, they are all man-made laws and rules, ie. we humans made them. If you let pigs write laws they'll forbid humans to eat them for sure, if they can write that is
Oh for fucks.... Just because they CAN do that does not mean you SHOULD or ever WOULD do that. Intelligent species are and should be bound by basic laws regardless of who makes them.

Quote:
More on the theme of the series, let's see, for the 13 episodes of time, Lucy gets about 4 episodes' worth of time, Nana gets about 3 episodes, Mariko and Kurama gets about 2, Yuuka gets 1-2, Mayu gets 1-2, so yup Lucy gets the most time since she's the main character, but the show has spread its time over all the characters quite well that I don't think you can say the theme is just about Lucy.
Uhh, Wha? Where did I say the "theme" is just about Lucy now?

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-17 at 13:07.
Icehawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 13:06   Link #1091
dreamless
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk
If even if we assume they are completely different species (which they are not anyways) the simple fact they are fellow intelligent sentients means that they deserve to be treated with the same basic rights that we do. Your animal examples are false analogies since those species are A) Not intelligent and B) They produce sterile offspring and arent even natural enemies anyways. Its a pretty safe bet to assume that if animals were intelligent on our level that they would have laws that would govern their behavior toward eachother since Violence based on race and ideas of racial superiority are simply FUCKING WRONG and counter productive to a society of intelligent beings whether they are human or not.
Diclonius have horns and psychic vector hands and generate mutagen virus, based on these facts, it is safe to assume that Diclonius are genetically far more different from humans than homo erectus were, so if homo erectus were considered a totally different species, Diclonius naturally should be considered a totally different species.

Quote:
Intelligent species follows laws even if they are a different race.
huh? why other intelligent species should follow the laws made by humans? Not to mention even among different human groups we already have great differences in our laws and legal systems. Muslims forbid girls to show their faces in public, in a lot of countries homosexuals are illegal, some country forbid capital punishment, etc. etc. Laws are man-made. If certain people from one country don't need to follow the laws in another country, why should an entirely different species follow laws made by humans.

Besides, I don't think any country has written laws like "it is illegal for an intelligent E.T. to kill humans", or "it is illegal for homo superiors to kill humans", so unless they add those lines later, ETs or homo superiors killing humans does not violate any existing human-made law.

Oh, "race" and "species" are totally different concepts. all existing human races are under homo sapien sapien, meaning we are not only under the same species, we are actually all under the same sub-species, despite which race you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk
Uhh, Wha? Where did I say the "theme" is just about Lucy now?
I never said you did. you are not the only guy here.

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-12-17 at 13:21.
dreamless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 13:31   Link #1092
Icehawk
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 32
Quote:
Diclonius have horns and psychic vector hands and generate mutagen virus, based on these facts, it is safe to assume that Diclonius are genetically far more different from humans than homo erectus were, so if homo erectus were considered a totally different species, Diclonius naturally should be considered a totally different species.
And yet they can breed perfectly fine with humans. This means we ARE genetically very similar.

Quote:
huh? why other intelligent species should follow the laws made by humans? Not to mention even among different human groups we already have great differences in our laws already. Muslims forbid women to show faces in public, in a lot of countries homosexuals are illegal. Laws are man-made. If certain people from one country don't need to follow the laws in another country, why should an entirely different species follow laws made by humans
Regardless, they are BORN from humans and can reproduce with humans, and they are genetically very similar to humans and have the same intelligence, thus they are at the very least bound by basic human rights laws that are universal to everyone regardless of your race, plain and simple, don't like it, tough shit end, of debate. Fuck even if they are separate species it would still be WRONG to classify them under different laws for that very reason. Thats the whole point im trying to get across. Their similarities to us are too great for them to morally and ethically be considered free from our laws.

You are trying to get off on a ridiculous technicality and it just doesnt fly.

Quote:
I never said you did. you are not the only guy here.
You should be more clear next time.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-17 at 13:41.
Icehawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 13:55   Link #1093
Guido
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Monterrey, México
Age: 34
This debate does really has piqued my interest.

First of all, Lucy's character is interesting to analyze just as well as the theme of the series. However, if there's something I will only dislike about her is her cold, silent attitude (And Let Me Clarify A Thing) not because of MORALITY issues but because she wasn't able to overly and fully express her feelings: hatred, sorrow, frustration, sadness.
Dammit! The writers not even allowed her to fully display all her emotions to Kouta. I really wanted to listen or hear Lucy shouting out loud, "I was alone" or "I hate them", but hell no they kept persistently to conceal her true feelings.

I guess that the anime crew did had neither the balls nor the guts to portrayed close or nearly the same way as she's depicted in the manga.

Second.
If I recall correctly, in a long-previous post of mine, I expressed that it is possible and plausible for humans and diclonius to co-exist in the world.
However, it's imminently tough or almost non-feasible because humankind has not evolve it's self-consciousness to judge others for the whole person they are, rather 'we' unfortunately tend to judge mainly by the looks and images of every person and second by their actions.
Then, there's the whole deal about the Diclonus genes that have encrypted on them the command to wipe out humans through instinct.

But dreamless in a previous post of yours, you clearly expressed that Diclonius are not an evolution of mankind rather a mutation due to the 'vector virus'. Evolution is triggered by changes in the environment, the way of living, DNA structure, but not through a virus.
Also you expressed that Dicloniuses way of living to destroy Humans is more the attitude or purpose of being a Bio-weapon. I got the message when you gave the example about the sheep. For the Diclonius to destroy Humans but leaving animals unharmed, that's something more along the line of being a borned bio-weapon!!
I agree with you about the bio-weapon issue.

Also, I can theorize that the bastard, old-man Kakuzawa and his previous ancestors somehow are at fault to deliberately alter the diclonius DNA. Just why that creep was so obsessed for humankind to perish, in later episodes of the anime? Then, in the final episode reveals his true self.

Third.
I have unearthed another interesting hypothesis about the vector virus.
The vector virus not only affects adversely humans but also Diclonius too, both pyschologically and emotionally.

It's possible that the very first generation Diclonius did not have the virus. Possibly, the Kakuzawa family or anybody else viewed the need for sacrificing some of their kind to create the virus and pass it on to the later Diclonius generations.

Fourth.
Kurama mentioned that he and his team were working for the development of the vaccine solution.
But that vaccine to be used to prevent the Diclonius mutation.

If there's ever a vaccine developed or smuggle out from the hands of Kakuzawa, somewhere and some undefined time in the manga, I will prefer that it is used to cure or eradicate the virus out from the Diclonius DNA.

Say whatever you say about "homo superioris" or "homo sapiens" issues, but for myself I view the Diclonius being human if not in the sociological or from the same species sense then for the spiritual and natural sense.
I mean, humans have a soul like all other living creatures, therefore, I imply that Diclonius also possess a soul too.
For me, it's clearly inhuman not to view them not "as humans" but humans (without the 'as')
A vaccine developed to cure Diclonius from the virus that it is messing up their genes at psychopathic level.
Diclonius deserve a chance to be in the world and grow to live for striving goals just as humans.

I just can't get myself to accept that Diclonius are borned to kill humans not because it is RIGHT or WRONG, REASONABLE or INSTINCTIVE, but because it isSad. Morality has nothing to do with these.

They just don't deserve to lead a purpose like that. I simply feel not pity rather compassion for Lucy. She just doesn't deserve to live for the whole purpose of killing humankind. She still hasn't realized that there are also people who had suffered even more abysmally and traumatic childhood experiences than hers to attempt to relate with them. She unluckily just came across and experienced one out of the two sides of both her enemy?/mother race: the inhumane nature.

And I clearly not buying any shit you say about the 'vector' acting or being the soul to the Diclonius because the soul or spirit is the core of our being that gives us sense of individual personality; in essence, the soul tell us "who we are" not "what we do" or "what we are borned to do".

Fifth.
That's something I will also complain a little about the show because whereas it was perfectly packed about scientific, sociological, moral, and psychological issue, I felt it lacked totally or devoid from spiritual and philosophical issues.
If there's ever a continuation to Elfen Lied, I just hope that they include them too.

Sixth.
I just hope that by the end of the manga, Lucy achieves and receives hope.
And why not? Being cure of the virus condition.
I'm fully awared of that being cured of the virus will do her nothing to erase the wretched experiences and memories of her painful childhood she went through.

But at least, she will decide by her free will and reasoning whether to kill or not, and leave at peace those who did not hurt her at all and that will never harm her.

Kill because it is reasonably understandable that someone pissed her off to the edge, not because a psycho persoanality living inside her head cheats on her to do so or because some microscopic bug on her genes commands her unquestionably to do so.

Seventh.
In my opinion, the theme I interpret about the story is hope. Not about oneself making a place to be but searching & finding a place in life.
Guido is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 13:55   Link #1094
dreamless
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk
And yet they can breed perfectly fine with humans. This means we ARE genetically very similar.



Regardless, they are BORN from humans and can reproduce with humans, and they are genetically very similar to humans and have the same intelligence, thus they are at the very least bound by basic human rights laws that are universal to everyone regardless of your race, plain and simple, don't like it, tough shit end, of debate. Fuck even if they are separate species it would still be WRONG to classify them under different laws for that very reason. Thats the whole point im trying to get across. Their similarities to us are too great for them to morally and ethically be considered free from our laws.

You are trying to get off on a ridiculous technicality and it just doesnt fly.



You should be more clear next time.
actually they are more intelligent than humans. And remember in the anime it is stated very clearly that with Diclonius, the age of homo sapiens is coming to an end. So that means Diclonius are not homo sapiens, ie. they are not humans. that's fact told in the anime itself. Genetically speaking, they are definitely not similar to humans, they can reproduce with humans but the result is Diclonius, never human, because of their mutagenic genes. Genetically superior mutagenic virus and species is not a new idea, you can refer to The Thing, and Species (the movie).

And our laws surely aren't suitable for Diclonius. laws made by homo sapiens are based on the abilities of homo sapiens. Diclonius have abilities far greater than homo sapiens. For example, we have laws that when we have caught a murderer we must try him in court first and we must protect his rights and things. You surely can't follow these laws with Diclonius, they'll slaughter the entire court with their vectors.

Anyway, since there's no existing law saying a non-human killing a human is illegal, so the act of Lucy killing humans is not illegal in existing written laws, whether it's morally right or wrong is another matter, but the fact remains that it doesn't violate any existing law.

And when it comes to morality, Diclonius is born with instinctive desire to kill humans, so I guess they don't think it's morally wrong to kill humans. We, humans, surely will think it's morally wrong to kill humans, but that's based on our morality, when we humans don't have instinctive desires to kill humans. Our morality does not necessarily apply to Diclonius, a different species with different instinctive desires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guido
But dreamless in a previous post of yours, you clearly expressed that Diclonius are not an evolution of mankind rather a mutation due to the 'vector virus'. Evolution is triggered by changes in the environment, the way of living, DNA structure, but not through a virus.
Also you expressed that Dicloniuses way of living to destroy Humans is more the attitude or purpose of being a Bio-weapon. I got the message when you gave the example about the sheep. For the Diclonius to destroy Humans but leaving animals unharmed, that's something more along the line of being a borned bio-weapon!!
I agree with you about the bio-weapon issue.
well, according to my hypothesis of Diclonius being a bio-weapon against humans, then there's asbolutely no moral or legal issue about Diclonius killing humans. But then MakubeX's later posts suggest that maybe at least Lucy is an evolution, so for now I think I'll go with the evolution hypothesis in this debate. For the "bio-weapon manufactured by aliens or something" hypothesis, then there's no need to debate on this matter all together

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-12-17 at 14:18.
dreamless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 14:30   Link #1095
Icehawk
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 32
Quote:
actually they are more intelligent than humans.
...... and where is this ever shown?

Quote:
And remember in the anime it is stated very clearly that with Diclonius, the age of homo sapiens is coming to an end. So that means Diclonius are not homo sapiens, ie. they are not humans. that's fact told in the anime itself. Genetically speaking, they are definitely not similar to humans, they can reproduce with humans but the result is Diclonius, never human, because of their mutagenic genes.
If its the result of the virus its not exactly evolution now is it? Look, its simple biology, if you can breed flawlessly and have with fertile offspring with something, you are obviously genetically very similar, thats the way it is. They may be a sperate species, but they are still very close.

Also, morality and instinct are two separate things. You can have the instinct to do something and from a moral and or rational perspective its wrong. The case here being sensless killing of humanity in the name of "instinct". If they were mindless beasts who weren't capable of intelligence and emotion than they could get away with it, but they are not. They are capable of reason and so should be taught and expected to keep their instincts in check if we were to form a stable co-existance.

This would be the most reasonable way to go about things. Humanity could all be replaced with Diclonius WITHOUT all the sensless instinctually driven killing.
Icehawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 15:07   Link #1096
dreamless
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk
...... and where is this ever shown?

If its the result of the virus its not exactly evolution now is it? Look, its simple biology, if you can breed flawlessly and have with fertile offspring with something, you are obviously genetically very similar, thats the way it is. They may be a sperate species, but they are still very close.

Also, morality and instinct are two separate things. You can have the instinct to do something and from a moral and or rational perspective its wrong. The case here being sensless killing of humanity in the name of "instinct". If they were mindless beasts who weren't capable of intelligence and emotion than they could get away with it, but they are not. They are capable of reason and so should be taught and expected to keep their instincts in check if we were to form a stable co-existance.

This would be the most reasonable way to go about things. Humanity could all be replaced with Diclonius WITHOUT all the sensless instinctually driven killing.
compare the intelligence of Mariko and young Lucy with normal human kids and you get the idea. It's more explained in the manga about their different brain structures.

well there is the idea of mutagenic virus, and I don't think you can say those aliens in Species is genetically very similar to humans. Diclonius is a genetically superior mutagenic species. if they are just genetically similar to humans, then their offsprings will have a chance to be normal humans. But in Diclonius' case, the offsprings from Diclonius and humans are always Diclonius and never humans, that means there must be some critical difference in their genetic makeups to mutate all human genes into Diclonius genes, and they always pass down the genes responsible for the vectors and mutagenic virus and the horns and the different brain structure. That in itself is quite a different genetic behaviour from human genes.

Yes they should be taught to keep their instincts in check if they are to co-exist with humans, but they have no reason to co-exist with humans. At least for Lucy she has no reason to co-exist with any human, except Kouta. Also morality forced against instincts usually don't work very well.

If you think it's all because of the virus, and Diclonius is not an evolution, then there's no moral issues in Lucy's killing humans. She's turned bio-weapon by the virus, or you could say it's a disease. Then there's no moral issues with the killing, like you don't say some totally mad guys killing people as morally wrong and try to teach them the right morals, you just lock them away and try to treat their mental diseases.

But then anyway since the anime says the age of homo sapiens is coming to an end with Diclonius, so it's safe to say Diclonius are not homo sapiens.

Anyway I'm not arguing about technicialities here, I just think you shouldn't judge what Lucy has done and the theme of the series with too much thoughts about human morality and legal issues.

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-12-17 at 15:36.
dreamless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 15:51   Link #1097
Elbowlick
Sakura Fan
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Holy crap.

Uh... well... who here likes pie?

Damn, I shouldn't have posted anything. : (
Elbowlick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 18:02   Link #1098
Jesushalero
Landmindmaster
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 34
Send a message via AIM to Jesushalero
Wow i love this debate. Just finished the anime about 20 minutes ago and i thoguht i would come give my opinion on the subject. I think constantly argueing the morality of diclonias killing humans is kinda ridiclious. Like others have said it is instinct. I would also go as far as to say that the diclonias are more like a human with a bad physcological disorder. As stated in the anime when they reach the age of 3 they go on a killing spree. Given that lucy and nana didnt seem to do this, when lucy first tasted blood she went into a sort of coma where she was talking to something inside her. Whatever this thing inside her is, it is the single defining factor that causes her to kill the innocent. And i can only guess that they other diclonias have they same sort of disorder. When lucy is lucy she also seems to know things beyond her scope of knowledge like, the world will be mostly diclonias in 5 years. Which would also sever to justify my assumption that there is something within the dicloinas that make them kill. So wait, if that was lucy at the end, then the human race is going to be extinct??
Jesushalero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 18:44   Link #1099
Chronissz
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
My take on the ending, Nyuu was the part of Lucy that was created to escape the harsh reality she was enduring. She created that childlike state to be able to survive after commiting these horrible acts. After she comes to terms with what she has done (by finally explaining her actions to Kouta), I think she would have done away with that shell of a personality. It was only there to protect her mind from going completely insane. Once she was willing to rationalize and openly explain her actions, I think that personality would have died out. Therefore I dont see the reason to bring back Nyuu, her mind has entered an awakened state, it realizes the full potential of the mistakes she has made, but whether or not she is willing to move forward and continue living is up to the viewer to decide.

I dont think you can say all of them start killing after age 3, or that all of them develope this Nyuu type personality. As in real life it depends on the psychological conditions the child has been subjected too. We already know that all of them share the same emotions that humans do, the only difference is they are born with this inherent weapon, and when their minds snap as a child from the abandonment caused by their horns, they use these weapons to lash out in the only way they know how. In Lucy's case, it was the killing of the dog and the seemingly betrayal of her only friend that made her snap, from there on out she awokened this alternate personality that existed inside her. This could be tottally different from Diclonius to Diclonius, as it is in Nana's case. Nana didnt develope this personality disorder because she always had someone to fall back on, her father (as she though).

The only conflict I see here is the return of Nyuu's personality in the manga, I just dont see Nyuu existing anymore, the purpose of Nyuu was to protect Lucy from having to live with what she had done. Now that she has confonted Kouta, which was the only reason she kept on living, that split personality would dissapear, and what would be left would be the tragic Lucy that can never escape the horrors of what she has done.

This last bit is entirly up to the viewer to decide, and this is how I view it. Lucy returns to the Inn as herself, a fully awakened personality, we know Kouta never will forgive her for what she did, but that does not mean he hates her. The death of Lucy offers nothing good to the world, it was the world that abandoned Lucy in the first place, she just choose the wrong way to deal with that abandonment. I see Lucy living without her horns and without the ability to use her powers, and I see her experiencing life for the first time as she was meant to, like a normal human being. She has caused so much hate and suffering for so many people, but she still has a chance to continue to live and bring love and hope into the world. If there is only one reason for Lucy to continue living it would be to bring these feelings of joy to the people around her, and try to learn from the mistakes of the past.

As I said before Lucy dieing is not a solution to any problems, if Lucy was to die it would just be a testament to how horrible the world is, but if she lives on without killing anymore, she can be the proof that everyone is looking for, that Diclonius are not born to kill, they are taught to kill through years of abuse, and then they revert to this subconscious that tells them that it is alright to kill, but there is light at the end of the tunnel, they have compassion and they know deep down that what they have done is evil, and they are willing to atone for it.
Chronissz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-17, 18:58   Link #1100
dreamless
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
the problem is, how Lucy manages to live without killing any one of those soldiers? also Nana is already a perfect proof that Diclonius can live without hurting anyone. And I'm not sure how do they atone for it? Or what do you mean by "atone for it"? Should they submit to human laws and let themselves get locked up for years in prison to atone for their crimes? I'm not really sure how to atone for the crime of killing innocent people...

For Nyuu/Lucy personality, at least in terms of manga, it's explained that the cause is the unique brain structure of Diclonius, not some personality created to escape reality.
dreamless is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
drama, ecchi, horror, loli, romance, seinen

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 23:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.