[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Toku

Prime!Yasu probably never committed murder or anything like that. She just wrote stories, and hoped for Battler's return. I doubt the murder mystery game even happened in Prime, it was probably just the subject of the stories she wrote for him.

I agree with that.
If prime exists as all.

I doubt Prime!Yasu was even in a romantic relationship with either Jessica or George. Putting that in the stories was probably just her way of portraying her intense emotional turmoil, and attempting to develop these characters she made up as people. George probably was jealous of Battler, but Yasu seems to be perfectly aware of that. And while I can't find any evidence that she dislikes him, I can't find any evidence that she loves him either. It's not too hard to see how superficial the ShannonxGeorge relationship is in the stories. She's always asking him whether he's serious, and when he speaks of their future, he only mentions his business, the money he'll make, the house they'll have, etc. And Jessica just seems to be Yasu's childhood friend.

So really, I think Prime!Yasu only loves Battler.

Yeah I used to say that the whole thing would make a lot more sense to me if George x Shannon was a complete set up that only existed in order to make Battler jealous. It'd be so the teenage thing to do ^^;;.

Furthermore, I doubt that there really are 900 tons of explosives on Prime. I simply cannot come up with a reason for why the government would say "oh, hey, we'll just let this old rich guy do whatever he wants with them." But unfortunately, while I can't justify the existence of this huge bomb, I also can't figure out a way to cover up the equally huge number of plot holes it would create if the bomb doesn't exist. Certainly, I could say that it only exists within the world of the game board, but that still doesn't explain why Eva needed to go all the way to Kuwadorian to survive on Prime, and why all the evidence disappeared, and why Ange didn't see the mansion when she went there in EP4, and more.

Personally I think if you try to judge Umineko on the logic of "the real world", you might end up finding that most about Rokkenjima doesn't make any sense.
I might be wrong but I think Ryuukishi made a point about Umineko's mystery answer being basically as crazy as the fantasy answer.

That's not really that crazy even for real mystery novels btw. "And then there were none" had murders that are imo harder to swallow then any of the Umineko murders and according to OC, one of the author that greatly influenced Ryuukishi was basically a pro of messed up stories that seems incredible and actually wrote more scifi then mystery. In a more generic way, one has to wonder why scottland yard decided to give so much power to Sherlock Holmes as well.

Anyway, it's just my opinion, but I find the 900 tons bomb ridiculous, but way more credible then 10 tons of gold landing on an island that everyone just conveniently forgot (even tho like, there should have been something considering that so many japanese soldiers lost their lives on the island... a topic that the novels never touched in any ways... did Kinzo/Beato dispose of them all and prayed every night that the gov would forget about them and that their families would just assume they are MIA in the war in a generic way without asking for more details...).

[AuraTwilight]

Admittedly this is true. On the other hand, if Prime does not exist, then the large part of the story Ryukishi has spent giving various hints and insights on it would be for nothing.

Not necessarily. Ryukishi seems very insistent that Prime doesn't really matter regarding what he has to say or what he wants us to figure out.

But unfortunately, if I want to keep from invalidating that confession, I guess it's necessary to have Yasu do something in Prime due to his coming that would cause her a great deal of regret. Which means that my "Yasu didn't commit crimes in Prime" theory has yet another potential hole... And I have no idea how to resolve it.

You're missing both 1) Yasu could be covering someone (and it's strongly suggested that she is) and 2) She could just be responsible for giving the culprit a means to do the crime. What if she planned an innocent mystery game where some people played dead, and the culprit used that as the perfect opening?

I don't think the theory that she wrote them afterwards makes sense. And the reason is because, from what I recall, the amount of paper stuffed into those bottles was described as being pretty large. Due to the sheer size of the stories, I don't think it could have been written that quickly. After all, I'm pretty sure the first message bottle was found a mere 2-4 days after the incident, or something like that.

Well, it couldn't of been enough to contain even a fraction as much text as we read. You can only roll up so much paper into a bottle. It was probably a "summarized" thing like we read in "Our Confession."

Hmm. Another good argument for the "letters were written afterward" theory. But that's only if they were written in hopes that someone would figure out what happened.

And to be honest, since they contained things that made a bunch of people believe "a witch did it" I don't really think that's the case...

"Please, to whoever is reading this, discover the truth. That is my only wish. --Maria Ushiromiya."

Also the entirety of Clair's characterization, herp.

As for Yasu=Ikuko, there was a gap of about 1.5 years in Yasu's story after she solved the epitaph, and at that point she was very rich. It's possible that she could have used that time to setup a new identity. Maybe she just wanted to get away from Rokkenjima and try to start a new life for herself, but she still had hopes that she would be able to reach Battler, so she didn't actually choose to live there until after the 1986 conference.

And what about there being a whole Hachijou backround that anyone could look into?

Also, Ikuko doesn't age. Like, at all. Like after multiple decades. I don't even think she's a human being.

Also Ikuko=Asumu is WAY cooler. WE DON'T EVEN KNOW ASUMU'S MAIDEN NAME LOL. Maybe she was "Asumu Hachijou" the whole damn time.

[Toku]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Personally I think if you try to judge Umineko on the logic of "the real world", you might end up finding that most about Rokkenjima doesn't make any sense.
I might be wrong but I think Ryuukishi made a point about Umineko's mystery answer being basically as crazy as the fantasy answer.

It's true that if you make a mystery like this, the answer is probably either nonsensical or too mundane, or something. But I think that mainly seems to apply to the closed rooms Beato/Erika/BATTLER thought up in EP8: Erika's had an extra long chain, BATTLER's had no ceiling, and Beato's had her simply trapping the victim inside a perfect closed room and letting them starve to death intentionally, thus "murdering" them.

If you try coming up with a puzzle where the goal is to escape from a closed room, you'll probably see that Ryukishi's right: it's hard to make one with an answer that isn't a dirty trick. I've tried coming up with some, and while I came up with a hard one or two, they had ridiculous answers. Answers that broke at least one of Knox's or Van Dine's rules. But then again, that's just how a lot of the puzzles in the game boards are, I think...

That's not really that crazy even for real mystery novels btw. "And then there were none" had murders that are imo harder to swallow then any of the Umineko murders and according to OC, one of the author that greatly influenced Ryuukishi was basically a pro of messed up stories that seems incredible and actually wrote more scifi then mystery. In a more generic way, one has to wonder why scottland yard decided to give so much power to Sherlock Holmes as well.

Yeah, I really wish I had experience with the Mystery genre but I really don't. This is making me want to read And Then There Were None more though.

Anyway, it's just my opinion, but I find the 900 tons bomb ridiculous, but way more credible then 10 tons of gold landing on an island that everyone just conveniently forgot (even tho like, there should have been something considering that so many japanese soldiers lost their lives on the island... a topic that the novels never touched in any ways... did Kinzo/Beato dispose of them all and prayed every night that the gov would forget about them and that their families would just assume they are MIA in the war in a generic way without asking for more details...).

Just like how many of the stories on the game board have fantasy scenes, I think EP7 also needs to be taken with a bit of salt. I think that there is some truth in Kinzo's story, for example: I'm quite sure that he did meet an Italian woman named Beatrice Castiglioni with blonde hair and blue eyes. But I feel that there's probably at least one lie in there, somewhere...

And Yasu's story in particular, I think a lot of it is metaphorical. The scene where Gaap possessed her and she started learning to use magic and stuff... That was probably just a huge metaphor for her having fun playing tricks on the other servants... And I don't think she has split personalities, but rather that these are just characters she created and loves. And a bunch of other stuff.

[Pocuma]

Read Judoh's George culprit analysis. http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...ostcount=14814

Ah! That was the one I was thinking about! Thanks!

Well, for starters, he's EXTREMELY creepy. He was jealous of a 12 year old Battler having the attentions of a 10-year-old Shannon when HE was 17.

Didn't he also say that he wasn't proud of it? But still... yes that part is creepy. By the way… Shannon is (supposed to be) 16 at the conference when George propose to her right? I thought that the whole age-thing might have be somewhat different in Japan in 1980. Does anyone know anything about that?

That, and he's straight up admitted he can totally kill his whole family if that's what it takes to be with Shannon.

The "sacrifice everyone else" thing from ep4 right? This always feels like it’s taken out of context. He talks a lot about being prepared to have the entire world as his enemy for Shannon’s sake. It’s true that he claims that he’ll be able to kill the survivors (it might be worth to mention that his parents are already dead) when Gaap ask him. But when asked to actually carry it out he chose to attack Gaap instead (and also says that: "Even the lives of the entire Ushiromiya family, ......are now my fortune. There will be reparations to be made for the damage that has been done. And it won't be cheap. ......You didn't seriously think you could take my parents, Natsuhi oba-san, Rudolf oji-san, Rosa oba-san, and Genji-san's lives and hope I'd overlook it, right?"). So he doesn’t really seem to be happy about his relatives being killed. Sorry if I sound like the devil's lawyer here… I’ve just had some trouble with swallowing that argument since the actions and words that follows speaks the opposite of what he first claimed.

The idea is that beside being antagonistic about it, Erika's role in arc 6 is very similar to the role George probably has with Shannon/Yasu most of the time.

This is also something I have not been able to understand… I can find hints that the George/Shannon relation is the most likely one to happen since Shannon wins the love-duel in ep6. Kanon rejects Jessica in the earlier episodes and he loses the love-duel so I can understand if there’s doubt about that relation, but (unless I missed something) Shannon always seemed quite happy about her and George’s relationship.

Erika was trying to get the Gamemaster title and ring from Battler./George was trying to get the Ushiromiya heir title and ring from Shannon.

Wait, what? Have I missed some thing? I understand that it’s just theorising but the only time I recall George showing any interest in the headship is during the test in ep4… and that’s more of a want-to-save-Shannon motivation behind that. It’s Eva who wants George to be the next head… or am I forgetting something? And he didn’t know about Shannon/Yasu being the heir…


I hope no one gets me wrong… I really enjoy reading different theories! I’m just having a bit of trouble warping my head around this one…

[AuraTwilight]

Didn't he also say that he wasn't proud of it? But still... yes that part is creepy. By the way… Shannon is (supposed to be) 16 at the conference when George propose to her right? I thought that the whole age-thing might have be somewhat different in Japan in 1980. Does anyone know anything about that?

Yea, legally, George is seven years older than her. Which is usually the baseline of "acceptable" when the youngest person is legal.

The "sacrifice everyone else" thing from ep4 right? This always feels like it’s taken out of context. He talks a lot about being prepared to have the entire world as his enemy for Shannon’s sake. It’s true that he claims that he’ll be able to kill the survivors (it might be worth to mention that his parents are already dead) when Gaap ask him. But when asked to actually carry it out he chose to attack Gaap instead (and also says that: "Even the lives of the entire Ushiromiya family, ......are now my fortune. There will be reparations to be made for the damage that has been done. And it won't be cheap. ......You didn't seriously think you could take my parents, Natsuhi oba-san, Rudolf oji-san, Rosa oba-san, and Genji-san's lives and hope I'd overlook it, right?"). So he doesn’t really seem to be happy about his relatives being killed. Sorry if I sound like the devil's lawyer here… I’ve just had some trouble with swallowing that argument since the actions and words that follows speaks the opposite of what he first claimed.

It's not the only place he brings it up, though. He retreads it in EP6 when he's completely willing to kill his mother and can be stone-cold about it, while Jessica had to pick someone at random and then temporarily "give up her soul" so it wasn't fully her at the wheel.

Wait, what? Have I missed some thing? I understand that it’s just theorising but the only time I recall George showing any interest in the headship is during the test in ep4… and that’s more of a want-to-save-Shannon motivation behind that. It’s Eva who wants George to be the next head… or am I forgetting something? And he didn’t know about Shannon/Yasu being the heir…

Yea, I don't agree with that, either.

I hope no one gets me wrong… I really enjoy reading different theories! I’m just having a bit of trouble warping my head around this one…

Personally, another really strong argument for George Culprit theory is...well, I've concluded that Yasu is taking the blame for someone else. If that's the case, then all the evidence to who she's covering for leads us to either George or Battler. Battler Culprit Theory is ALSO elegant, but so is George.

For instance, if Eva isn't keeping quiet to protect Ange from her parents or brother being the culprit, WHO ELSE COULD SHE BE COVERING HER MOUTH FOR?

I really doubt Eva, for instance, is going to ruin her life and reputation for the big-tittied maid she didn't like her son hanging around with, for instance.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Toku

Did Tohya say he remembered being involved in a mystery game? I can't remember...

It's unclear to be honest.

He said he remembered 'fighting and arguing about mysteries or something like that. The way of fighting, which I must have learned in the past.... sent a surge of excitement through me. ... Mystery... fighting... my head... hurt...'.

Of course this can refer to the fact he remembered discussing mysteries with Yasu when he was a child... but since it seems to be a key point in his memory I like to think it can mean something more than just a childhood memory.
Though it's so unclear everything can be assumed.

Originally Posted by Toku

And, as far as I remember, Our Confession only implied that Piece!Yasu had the intention to carry out the plan...

Piece!Yasu was supposed to create a murder game that would involve real killing.
If a murder game could have worked just the same real killing would be unecessary expecially since there's also the possibility to get around the red for 'dead'.
So it seems to imply Prime!Yasu might have planned a murder game and have toyed with the idea of making it real (expecially because if I tell you a story I can easily trick you with fake copses but in real life is not so easy to fake dead/a corpse).

When Erika kills the people to check if they're really dead she goes overboard.
If she had tried to stop them from breathing covering their faces with a pillow for example, they might have managed to fake dead for some moments then they would have instinctively tried to remove the pillow.
Your chest moves when you breathe, your heart beats when you're alive, your body temperature stay warm... and so on...

It's hard to believe no one would notice people faking being dead, paint used in place of blood... unless everyone knew it was a game.

So, during it Battler and the others wouldn't have checked the corpses because he would have known they were alive and merely faking death.

Originally Posted by Toku

The Pieces that BATTLER commands in EP8 are really weird. For example, we get things like Kinzo being a nice old man who loves his whole family so much he can't stand it, even though this goes completely contrary to everything else we've seen throughout the rest of the series.

I think piece!Kinzo in EP 8 reflects solely Battler's vision. He might have remembered Kinzo as a loving grandad in private (note that Battler tends to see the best in people... and the last time he saw Kinzo he was 12... meta!Battler is 18 and Toya, who's meta!Battler, is older and had lost part of his memory so his vision might be biased), while the Kinzo presented in the other games might have been how Kinzo looked in the eyes of everyone else.

Originally Posted by Toku

That's why I feel that I have reason to doubt what George and Shannon said there. But in the end, those letters are a devil's proof.

Well, I'm not saying that Yasu wasn't friends with George in Prime. I think that she probably was. I just don't think they had a romantic, reciprocated relationship.

Well, probably it can be checked if George bought the ring or not as well... though we can't know if it was for Shannon or for the girl Eva spoke of in EP 6.
Theoretically in Prime George and Jessica's love for Yasu might have been all in her head and the witch hunters might have believed it existed due to circumstancial proves (George went somehwere with Shannon? That's a proof of their relation!).

Prime is so vague much is left up to speculation.

Originally Posted by Toku

But the submarine is another weird thing that looks completely improbable.

In my theory (I wrote it some posts ago) the submarine went to Japan due to the exchange of material in order to build up a 'final weapon'.
During WW2 Germany, Italy and Japan exchanged material and researches trying to build a powerful weapon but they lost the war before they could make something.
In this case the submarine would have left Italy with Germany's help also and would have to take its cargo to Japan instead than to better locations (Spain and Switzerland to name two).

If we've to believe Kinzo's story, the submarine was damaged and was slowly sinking by the time there was the fight between Italians and Japanese.
At the end of the war it could have been completely submerged, its cargo unknown to the Japanese government.

Originally Posted by Toku

Especially since, in this article, it implies that he might have obtained gold from the US army instead:
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/TIPS/A...Interview_Tape

Well, it lists one of the speculations. Either the submarine story is true or is a complete fantasy because, unless you're from the army or the government, it should be hard to speculate something like this.

And interesting enough it seems there are no proofs Kinzo really had all that gold. If I'm not wrong only 1 ingot was viewed by witnessers.
Also I've noticed something odd about the gold but I'll write this in a future post.

[Pocuma]

Personally, another really strong argument for George Culprit theory is...well, I've concluded that Yasu is taking the blame for someone else. If that's the case, then all the evidence to who she's covering for leads us to either George or Battler. Battler Culprit Theory is ALSO elegant, but so is George.

For instance, if Eva isn't keeping quiet to protect Ange from her parents or brother being the culprit, WHO ELSE COULD SHE BE COVERING HER MOUTH FOR?

I really doubt Eva, for instance, is going to ruin her life and reputation for the big-tittied maid she didn't like her son hanging around with, for instance.

Thanks! I think this reasoning makes the most sense to me of the ones I've read so far. Still... it would kind of ruin the whole Eva-keept-quiet-for-Anges-sake thing...
Which lead to another question: Didn't Anges have quite a strong reaction when she found out the truth in ep8? (I haven't read ep 8 yet, but I think someone mentioned her reaction earlier in this thread or in another one.) Just wondered if she would have such a strong reaction if it was just one of the cousins... but I guess that if I go by that logic any Ushiromya family member would make more sense than "Yasu is the culprit"...

[Toku]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Not necessarily. Ryukishi seems very insistent that Prime doesn't really matter regarding what he has to say or what he wants us to figure out.

True. And personally, I only really care about Prime for one reason: Yasu.

I think that's the "3rd story" that Dlanor referred to in OC. The first is the Fantasy, the second is the Mystery, and the third is who Yasu really is. What exactly are the feelings in her heart, and what are her motives, and what did she really do, etc. Figuring that out is no small feat, even after reading OC...

You're missing both 1) Yasu could be covering someone (and it's strongly suggested that she is) and 2) She could just be responsible for giving the culprit a means to do the crime. What if she planned an innocent mystery game where some people played dead, and the culprit used that as the perfect opening?

Hm... It was implied that Eva is covering for someone, but I don't recall implications that Yasu is... Rather, Will straight up said "here's the culprit." Though, of course, what he actually meant by that is anyone's guess...

That second argument is pretty good, and it makes me want to believe in the murder mystery game on Prime a bit. But I don't really know.

Well, it couldn't of been enough to contain even a fraction as much text as we read. You can only roll up so much paper into a bottle. It was probably a "summarized" thing like we read in "Our Confession."

I thought the bottle was a wine bottle or something. It was supposed to be pretty big... Though I could be wrong.

"Please, to whoever is reading this, discover the truth. That is my only wish. --Maria Ushiromiya."

Also the entirety of Clair's characterization, herp.

As for the first part, I attributed that to Yasu's fantasies regarding the whole message bottle thing. Though it could be the truth.

As for the second, I think that was more along the lines of "I just want someone to understand me." After all, in OC, Dlanor's and Meta-Beato's exchange supports that pretty heavily...

And what about there being a whole Hachijou backround that anyone could look into?

Also, Ikuko doesn't age. Like, at all. Like after multiple decades. I don't even think she's a human being.

Also Ikuko=Asumu is WAY cooler. WE DON'T EVEN KNOW ASUMU'S MAIDEN NAME LOL. Maybe she was "Asumu Hachijou" the whole damn time.

Lol. You're right, it could go either way.

...I won't try to tell you that Ikuko=Yasu, but I still want to talk about my theories on the subject. But, I'll try and remove all the common arguments that you've probably already read from it.

First of all, I want to call attention to the times Kinzo and Battler said this to the ones they loved:

"I'll kidnap you. You're my Golden Witch."

Kidnappings don't actually happen very often in Umineko. Ikuko kidnapping Tohya is one of those few times. And the one she kidnapped is Battler of all people.
Add on top of that the fact that she's a pretty minor character who only really shows up in EP8 and doesn't get that much development, and it becomes pretty hard to believe that Ryukishi would draw this parallel.

But that's not all she did. She paid doctors to come take care of him. She gave them additional money to keep it quiet.

Yeah, I know. That last bit comes up a lot in Ikuko=Yasu theories already, but I called attention to it for a different reason.

There's another parallel here. When Kinzo kidnapped Beatrice I, he hired a doctor to come take care of her, and paid him extra money to keep it quiet. That doctor was Nanjo.

And, of course, there's other parallels. If Ikuko is Yasu, then she must have been hoping for his memories to come back, for him to be able to connect to them. Waiting for Battler to be revived. Almost like Kinzo.

One more thing. Let's take a look at that ending sequence in the EP8 ??? scene one more time.

Remember that Ange is the Witch of Resurrection. She revived Sakutarou by presenting Maria with a copy of him. What does she do here? She presents Tohya with a copy of his past, that he can't seem to connect to emotionally. Another parallel. Suddenly, because of Ange's "magic," Tohya feels like he's in Battler's shoes.

That's why I think that Battler was revived then.

And after that, the Golden Land is revived.

What's the Golden Land? Is it something that Battler can create on his own? Nah, the minimum number needed to create a universe is two. And I'm pretty sure that the Golden Land was always associated with Yasu. After all, who was always trying their very best to invite Battler to the Golden Land? But when he finally accepted it back then, it was too late.

As for that scene of Beatrice trying to drown herself in the Magic ending, I think of it as a metaphor. For this, specifically:

Originally Posted by Lyrics to "Promise" in EP5

But, when that promise couldn't be fufilled
The heart I was protecting in all my frailty
Made me softly push your back, so you could continue alone
So that tomorrow's days would shine and have laughter

Quite literally. She had simply stopped believing that the promise could be fulfilled. The witch, who symbolizes the heart she was protecting, died.

But, when the weight of the ingot pulled Beatrice downward, and their hands separated, he swam down again, and reached her.

Originally Posted by That scene

And this time, fate didn't try to tear them apart.

(is what I'm pretty sure it said)

Sure, the Golden Witch probably died in October of 1986. However, I think she was revived at the very end.

And actually, this fits in perfectly with Piece!Beatrice's goals in the stories: to revive, and to invite Battler to the Golden Land. Not to mention, the big part of EP6 that featured Beato coming to save him.

I guess it just depends on how you see it though. I think a lot of people said that they weren't satisfied with the ending of Umineko, but when I look at it like this, I can't find anything unsatisfactory about it.

(response to jjblue1 in a moment)

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Toku

Yeah, I really wish I had experience with the Mystery genre but I really don't. This is making me want to read And Then There Were None more though.

I'm not a very big fan of Mystery genre, but this is a classics among classics, so I suggest it in relation to that. It's also one of the biggest influence on Umineko's setting.

Just like how many of the stories on the game board have fantasy scenes, I think EP7 also needs to be taken with a bit of salt. I think that there is some truth in Kinzo's story, for example: I'm quite sure that he did meet an Italian woman named Beatrice Castiglioni with blonde hair and blue eyes. But I feel that there's probably at least one lie in there, somewhere...

I actually do not anymore. Recent conversation with Chrono revived the idea of Kumasawa = Beatrice 1. If anyone here saw the movie Citizen Kane (and I dare hope at least a few did), well it's basically too easy to see a relation between Kane and Kinzo, between Rosebud and Beatrice, tho with some twists. The most interesting aspect of this to me is that Kane was actually based on Wiliam Hearst but ended up also representing the author and actor of the role, Orson Wells himself.
One could probably even theorize that Kinzo is as fictional a character as Kane is, but still based on a real person (Tohya?) and yet ends up also representing the author (Ikuko?).

Anyway, for the in game theory, it would go that...
"Beatrice" is a symbol of Kinzo's youth, much like Rosebud was to Kane. However I think in this case, Beatrice was actually not a sleight but a person (which I believe to be Kumasawa). My actual idea goes that Kinzo loved Kumasawa but through being forced to be the heir of the Ushiromiya ended up having to marry a different person altogether. The rest would be that the same way George currently is dating Shannon and might end up marrying her (but in Yasu's heart, she will always love Battler). So basically both Kinzo and Kumasawa ended up dating someone else and moved on with their lives.

Some scenes could also suggest that either Kinzo doesn't know Kumasawa was "his Beatrice" or that he is unable to accept her as such anymore (much in the same way that Beatrice tried to reject in arc 4 that Battler was her Battler). I'm mostly referring to arc 2 when Beatrice says Kinzo is a fool for not realizing she's right beside him.


Edit: It could be entirely that Beatrice 1 was never a person anyway. Kinzo tried to revive Beatrice. If Beatrice = symbol/concept of Kinzo's youth, then buying Rokkenjima and turning it into what was referred to in arc 1 as a childhood dream come true, would indeed be a large step into trying to revive your youth. Old people who have dedicated a very large part of their lives to business often ends up wanting to find back their lost youth, so it wouldn't be that uncommon either.

And Yasu's story in particular, I think a lot of it is metaphorical. The scene where Gaap possessed her and she started learning to use magic and stuff... That was probably just a huge metaphor for her having fun playing tricks on the other servants... And I don't think she has split personalities, but rather that these are just characters she created and loves. And a bunch of other stuff.

I think the gameboard itself is the result of transforming metaphorical things about the real author into literal events. In relation to that I am fairly certain currently that "Rokkenjima Prime" is a story that has almost nothing to do with the mystery/fantasy murder stories we see. OC itself mentioned a third story, which I think is a romance story where everything metaphorical about it ends up becoming a literal event in the murder stories we get to read.

For instance, when a teenage is involved with many people at the same time in love, it's quite a common idea that "the act of choosing" is what is going to hurt others, and thus "in order not to hurt anyone" they decide "not to chose anyone" and usually as a results "ends up hurting everyone". If you take that and turn everything about it into a 100% literal event, well at least I can see a lot more easily then before why Umineko is a murder story at all.

[Tazar]

There is something that has been bugging me since a couple of days.

There's also no reason for Yasu to have needed to know about Battler's coming in 1986, in order to write the first two message bottles. Her purpose in writing those message bottles is vague, but this much about it should be certain: She wrote these stories to convey a message to Battler.

Sure, but there is something weird about all of this.

If Beato/Yasu wrote EP1 & 2 before October 4, how did he/she know that Ange was going to be abscent that year?

[Toku]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

It's unclear to be honest.

He said he remembered 'fighting and arguing about mysteries or something like that. The way of fighting, which I must have learned in the past.... sent a surge of excitement through me. ... Mystery... fighting... my head... hurt...'.

Of course this can refer to the fact he remembered discussing mysteries with Yasu when he was a child... but since it seems to be a key point in his memory I like to think it can mean something more than just a childhood memory.
Though it's so unclear everything can be assumed.

Ah, that. Well... Whether Yasu presented Battler with stories or a real murder mystery game in 1986, it could also be referring to that. But who knows.

Piece!Yasu was supposed to create a murder game that would involve real killing.
If a murder game could have worked just the same real killing would be unecessary expecially since there's also the possibility to get around the red for 'dead'.
So it seems to imply Prime!Yasu might have planned a murder game and have toyed with the idea of making it real (expecially because if I tell you a story I can easily trick you with fake copses but in real life is not so easy to fake dead/a corpse).

When Erika kills the people to check if they're really dead she goes overboard.
If she had tried to stop them from breathing covering their faces with a pillow for example, they might have managed to fake dead for some moments then they would have instinctively tried to remove the pillow.
Your chest moves when you breathe, your heart beats when you're alive, your body temperature stay warm... and so on...

It's hard to believe no one would notice people faking being dead, paint used in place of blood... unless everyone knew it was a game.

So, during it Battler and the others wouldn't have checked the corpses because he would have known they were alive and merely faking death.

Well, my argument was just that Piece!Yasu isn't necessarily the same as Meta!Yasu.

But if Battler also knew that they weren't dead, there would be no difference between this and a story she decided to present him with instead.

I think piece!Kinzo in EP 8 reflects solely Battler's vision. He might have remembered Kinzo as a loving grandad in private (note that Battler tends to see the best in people... and the last time he saw Kinzo he was 12... meta!Battler is 18 and Toya, who's meta!Battler, is older and had lost part of his memory so his vision might be biased), while the Kinzo presented in the other games might have been how Kinzo looked in the eyes of everyone else.

Hm... Even if it's 6 years ago though, this would make his memory really terrible. Ange, despite having been 5 the last time she saw him, still knew at a glance that this wasn't Kinzo.

...But even so, your argument is a possibility.

In my theory (I wrote it some posts ago) the submarine went to Japan due to the exchange of material in order to build up a 'final weapon'.
During WW2 Germany, Italy and Japan exchanged material and researches trying to build a powerful weapon but they lost the war before they could make something.
In this case the submarine would have left Italy with Germany's help also and would have to take its cargo to Japan instead than to better locations (Spain and Switzerland to name two).

If we've to believe Kinzo's story, the submarine was damaged and was slowly sinking by the time there was the fight between Italians and Japanese.
At the end of the war it could have been completely submerged, its cargo unknown to the Japanese government.

Hm... Also a possibility. I don't know much of the details on this subject, but you seem to have done your research.

Well, it would be pretty stupid for an amateur to try and mess with an experimental ultimate weapon, but I guess the same can be said of the 900 tons of explosives.

I can't deny this theory, and it seems more plausible than the idea that there was 10 tons of gold in that sub.

And interesting enough it seems there are no proofs Kinzo really had all that gold. If I'm not wrong only 1 ingot was viewed by witnessers.

There's a red truth which verifies the 10 tons of gold, but of course, you can simply say that red truths don't apply to Prime if you want.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

I actually do not anymore. Recent conversation with Chrono revived the idea of Kumasawa = Beatrice 1. If anyone here saw the movie Citizen Kane (and I dare hope at least a few did), well it's basically too easy to see a relation between Kane and Kinzo, between Rosebud and Beatrice, tho with some twists. The most interesting aspect of this to me is that Kane was actually based on Wiliam Heast but ended up also representing the author and actor of the role, Orson Wells himself.
One could probably even theorize that Kinzo is as fictional a character as Kane is, but still based on a real person (Tohya?) and yet ends up also representing the author (Ikuko?).

Anyway, for the in game theory, it would go that...
"Beatrice" is a symbol of Kinzo's youth, much like Rosebud was to Kane. However I think in this case, Beatrice was actually not a sleight but a person (which I believe to be Kumasawa). My actual idea goes that Kinzo loved Kumasawa but through being forced to be the heir of the Ushiromiya ended up having to marry a different person altogether. The rest would be that the same way George currently is dating Shannon and might end up marrying her (but in Yasu's heart, she will always love Battler). So basically both Kinzo and Kumasawa ended up dating someone else and moved on with their lives.

Some scenes could also suggest that either Kinzo doesn't know Kumasawa was "his Beatrice" or that he is unable to accept her as such anymore (much in the same way that Beatrice tried to reject in arc 4 that Battler was her Battler). I'm mostly referring to arc 2 when Beatrice says Kinzo is a fool for not realizing she's right beside him.

...I have never heard of a theory like this before. But, it is certainly a possibility. I'd just like to know what caused Beatrice I to "die" in Kinzo's eyes, though, if that's true. Because even though she's still alive, according to this theory, he still convinced himself that Beatrice II was Beatrice I and the result was Beatrice III... And while he does seem to have some measure of trust in Kumasawa, it's nothing too noteworthy.

Looking at Kinzo's backstory, I find it difficult to believe that he would have "moved on." Up until the moment of his death, I'm pretty sure she was his reason for living.

So, either Kumasawa betrayed him somehow, or he just never knew it was her, I guess...

I think the gameboard itself is the result of transforming metaphorical things about the real author into literal events. In relation to that I am fairly certain currently that "Rokkenjima Prime" is a story that has almost nothing to do with the mystery/fantasy murder stories we see. OC itself mentioned a third story, which I think is a romance story where everything metaphorical about it ends up becoming a literal event in the murder stories we get to read.

For instance, when a teenage is involved with many people at the same time in love, it's quite a common idea that "the act of choosing" is what is going to hurt others, and thus "in order not to hurt anyone" they decide "not to chose anyone" and usually as a results "ends up hurting everyone". If you take that and turn everything about it into a 100% literal event, well at least I can see a lot more easily then before why Umineko is a murder story at all.

But there's 16 people on the island, not 4 (Yasu/George/Battler/Jessica). So even if it was a love conflict like in EP6, it wouldn't involve the rest of the people on the island. That's why I think that that conflict in EP6 is just a metaphor for her deep emotional pain, and probably a way for her to try and develop her characters as if they were real people.

Originally Posted by Tazar

If Beato/Yasu wrote EP1 & 2 before October 4, how did he/she know that Ange was going to be abscent that year?

Well, I already responded to this.

It's possible for us to say that Ange, being a 6-year old girl, had no significant role in Yasu's mystery. And there's already many theories that the first two episodes of the sound novel are edited versions of the first two message bottles, so perhaps Ange was edited out after the fact.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Toku

...I have never heard of a theory like this before. But, it is certainly a possibility. I'd just like to know what caused Beatrice I to "die" in Kinzo's eyes, though, if that's true. Because even though she's still alive, according to this theory, he still convinced himself that Beatrice II was Beatrice I and the result was Beatrice III... And while he does seem to have some measure of trust in Kumasawa, it's nothing too noteworthy.

Looking at Kinzo's backstory, I find it difficult to believe that he would have "moved on." Up until the moment of his death, I'm pretty sure she was his reason for living.

So, either Kumasawa betrayed him somehow, or he just never knew it was her, I guess...

Actually that's part of why I think it's sorta likely. Kinzo and Yasu are basically too similar. What Kinzo feels for Beatrice is too similar to what Yasu feels for Battler. Yasu never told Battler directly that she loved him and was never certain if he loved her back or not. His general attitude indicated the whole thing wasn't a big deal for him tho, even if it was one for her.

Apply the same situation to Kinzo and Kumasawa by replacing Battler with Kumasawa and Kinzo with Yasu. Introverts falling in love with extraverted happy going people.

Edit: Also, consider that the idea here is that "the girl he loved when he was young" was to become a "symbol of everything he had when he was young, that he lost". The thing Kinzo would really miss would be his youth, not the girl per say. Again I'm reminded of Dante and Beatrice (the real one) where the former never told the later he was in love with her. Was Dante really in love with the actual Beatrice, or was it more a symbol for him? This probably applies to Yasu as well imo btw.

Another thing that imo would fit very nicely in this is that Kinzo as shown in arc 8 could be argued to be him after "he found back his youth" through love of his grandchildren and playing with them. That Kinzo wasn't terribly bothered about Beatrice 1.

But there's 16 people on the island, not 4 (Yasu/George/Battler/Jessica). So even if it was a love conflict like in EP6, it wouldn't involve the rest of the people on the island. That's why I think that that conflict in EP6 is just a metaphor for her deep emotional pain, and probably a way for her to try and develop her characters as if they were real people.

In my understanding that's a bit too literal to matter when trying to understand the metaphors behind it, if this is how it really works.

[Toku]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Actually that's part of why I think it's sorta likely. Kinzo and Yasu are basically too similar. What Kinzo feels for Beatrice is too similar to what Yasu feels for Battler. Yasu never told Battler directly that she loved him and was never certain if he loved her back or not. His general attitude indicated the whole thing wasn't a big deal for him tho, even if it was one for her.

Apply the same situation to Kinzo and Kumasawa by replacing Battler with Kumasawa and Kinzo with Yasu. Introverts falling in love with extraverted happy going people.

Hm... That's interesting. It makes me think that Yasu is like Dante (the writer of Divine Comedy).

But, to be honest, I don't agree, for a few reasons:
1. I'm pretty sure that in both EP5 and EP7, Battler made it clear that he remembered the feelings he had for Yasu as his first love. In EP5, it's that scene where he mentions to Virgilia that his first love moved on and found someone else (George). Which is all kinds of ironic... But at any rate, they certainly both did love each other. If there was any problem with communication back then, it was the fact that Yasu took the promise so seriously when it wasn't meant that way.
2. Beatrice I seemed to take it very seriously when she said that Kinzo was all she had left at the moment. Everyone else she cared about, was gone. She said that if he left her behind, she would die right then. If anything, I think she might have been more serious about the relationship than Kinzo was, if that's even possible. That's why I think that the possibility of Kinzo having failed to communicate his love to her is slim, as is the possibility of her betraying him.
3. Kinzo sure didn't seem all that introverted to me... He was hitting on her in English almost constantly.

In my understanding that's a bit too literal to matter when trying to understand the metaphors behind it, if this is how it really works.

Oh, my bad.

[AuraTwilight]

Which lead to another question: Didn't Anges have quite a strong reaction when she found out the truth in ep8? (I haven't read ep 8 yet, but I think someone mentioned her reaction earlier in this thread or in another one.) Just wondered if she would have such a strong reaction if it was just one of the cousins... but I guess that if I go by that logic any Ushiromya family member would make more sense than "Yasu is the culprit"...

The horrible truth could easily be something like "Everyone you love is dead and gone, lol."

Another argument I've seen is that all the stuff about Kyrie and Rudolf did it is what Eva believes happened, and thus recorded in her diary. Perhaps, for instance, George killed everyone, Rudolf and Kyrie killed George, and Eva saw this, thought those two were the culprits, and killed them, promising to shut her mouth to protect Ange.

Hm... It was implied that Eva is covering for someone, but I don't recall implications that Yasu is... Rather, Will straight up said "here's the culprit." Though, of course, what he actually meant by that is anyone's guess...

That second argument is pretty good, and it makes me want to believe in the murder mystery game on Prime a bit. But I don't really know.

Well, Will only investigates the culprit of the stories. He never touches Prime, and is content with exploring fictional mysteries in the stories Yasu wrote.

Secondly, we know that a murder mystery game happened because 1) Battler portrayed the murders this way in his Game, and he was trying to prove he knew the Truth, and 2) "Our Confession" confirmed it. I don't think we can really deny it at this point.

And of course, if Yasu is organizing a game, why would she kill people for real? She doesn't even have a motive. Not to mention that taking the blame is the whole reason she played Beatrice.

Didn't she keep saying "If you blame me, you don't have to blame one of your relatives"? This is the SAME THING. She just dropped the witch pretense and said, "Alright, it's me. I did it, not anyone else."

...I won't try to tell you that Ikuko=Yasu, but I still want to talk about my theories on the subject. But, I'll try and remove all the common arguments that you've probably already read from it.

First of all, I want to call attention to the times Kinzo and Battler said this to the ones they loved:

"I'll kidnap you. You're my Golden Witch."

Kidnappings don't actually happen very often in Umineko. Ikuko kidnapping Tohya is one of those few times. And the one she kidnapped is Battler of all people.
Add on top of that the fact that she's a pretty minor character who only really shows up in EP8 and doesn't get that much development, and it becomes pretty hard to believe that Ryukishi would draw this parallel.

But that's not all she did. She paid doctors to come take care of him. She gave them additional money to keep it quiet.

Yeah, I know. That last bit comes up a lot in Ikuko=Yasu theories already, but I called attention to it for a different reason.

There's another parallel here. When Kinzo kidnapped Beatrice I, he hired a doctor to come take care of her, and paid him extra money to keep it quiet. That doctor was Nanjo.

And, of course, there's other parallels. If Ikuko is Yasu, then she must have been hoping for his memories to come back, for him to be able to connect to them. Waiting for Battler to be revived. Almost like Kinzo.

The thing is, these are parallels, and those don't necessarily lead to causation. Infact, your Kinzo examples suggest exactly that, to which I call attention to Kinzo's Beatrice.

Twice, Kinzo made two separate individuals into the "Beatrice" he originally knew, insisting they were the same because of similarities and patterns in behavior or appearance or even in twists of destiny. But they weren't the same person.

So why should Yasu and Ikuko be the same based on the same reasoning. Ikuko and Toya have a very different relationship that they're happy with, so isn't it kind of wrong of us to insist Yasu's legacy onto Ikuko?

Hell, I still can't work out the logistics of how the hell they're the same. I mean, like, let's say they left the island at the same time, even if they didn't leave together. So Battler drowns and winds up amnesiac, and then Yasu becomes Ikuko, gets a house and servants and crap, then is just driving all of a sudden and finds Battler unconscious on the road?

BTW how the hell did Yasu even get a driver's license? She's never even driven a car. Seriously.

One more thing. Let's take a look at that ending sequence in the EP8 ??? scene one more time.

Remember that Ange is the Witch of Resurrection. She revived Sakutarou by presenting Maria with a copy of him. What does she do here? She presents Tohya with a copy of his past, that he can't seem to connect to emotionally. Another parallel. Suddenly, because of Ange's "magic," Tohya feels like he's in Battler's shoes.

That's why I think that Battler was revived then.

And after that, the Golden Land is revived.

What's the Golden Land? Is it something that Battler can create on his own? Nah, the minimum number needed to create a universe is two. And I'm pretty sure that the Golden Land was always associated with Yasu. After all, who was always trying their very best to invite Battler to the Golden Land? But when he finally accepted it back then, it was too late.

The Golden Land is also the afterlife, so Toya going there as Battler implies that 'Battler' is dead forever, either figuratively, or because Toya died on the spot.

In the same vein, Beatrice is there, along with everyone else who was on Rokkenjima. Dlanor also says that Beatrice is deceased when she is presenting Our Confession.

If Beato/Yasu wrote EP1 & 2 before October 4, how did he/she know that Ange was going to be abscent that year?

It's been theorized that Ange was deliberately arranged not to come.

Which, if true, opens a HUUUUUGE can of worms.

[UsagiTenpura]

Considering prediction of the storm and that Ange was absent that year, I'm leaving that to the wonders of culprit who can predicts things no one should be able to (as far as the mystery story goes).

Spoiler for And then there were none.:

Remember that in that novel the culprit predicted that one of the people on the island would end up murdering another and then commit suicide. I guess it sounds slightly more possible then predicting something like a storm, but at this point I think it's splitting straws to consider them all that different.

Still that implies in the "prime" world a massacre really occurred which I think did not. I take Ange's world as being the same as Lion's world: possibilities that spawned around the main story.

[Toku]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Well, Will only investigates the culprit of the stories. He never touches Prime, and is content with exploring fictional mysteries in the stories Yasu wrote.

Secondly, we know that a murder mystery game happened because 1) Battler portrayed the murders this way in his Game, and he was trying to prove he knew the Truth, and 2) "Our Confession" confirmed it. I don't think we can really deny it at this point.

And of course, if Yasu is organizing a game, why would she kill people for real? She doesn't even have a motive. Not to mention that taking the blame is the whole reason she played Beatrice.

Didn't she keep saying "If you blame me, you don't have to blame one of your relatives"? This is the SAME THING. She just dropped the witch pretense and said, "Alright, it's me. I did it, not anyone else."

...True. All of this is true.

Alright, I can accept the murder mystery game as the truth.

Well, now that I think about it, I don't think doing so would get in the way of my theories at all. If anything, it probably only clears up certain holes in the logic. And I think it makes for a more satisfying story.

The thing is, these are parallels, and those don't necessarily lead to causation. Infact, your Kinzo examples suggest exactly that, to which I call attention to Kinzo's Beatrice.

Twice, Kinzo made two separate individuals into the "Beatrice" he originally knew, insisting they were the same because of similarities and patterns in behavior or appearance or even in twists of destiny. But they weren't the same person.

So why should Yasu and Ikuko be the same based on the same reasoning. Ikuko and Toya have a very different relationship that they're happy with, so isn't it kind of wrong of us to insist Yasu's legacy onto Ikuko?

I also noticed the parallel of Beatrice I -> Beatrice II and Battler -> Tohya, and Meta-Beato -> Chick!Beato. It's true that it could apply here... But only if Ikuko really isn't Yasu.

Practically my entire argument is "there is simply too much meaning here for me to be able to conclude that Ikuko is some minor character that only gets introduced properly in the very last episode."

Are you sure their relationship is that different? Actually, what struck me was the fact that their relationship is so similar. Isn't it Yasu's dream to create a universe of mystery stories together with Battler? And they're doing exactly that...

Well, at any rate, I guess Ikuko could just be your everyday lonely mystery novelist from a rich family that's ashamed of her...

Hell, I still can't work out the logistics of how the hell they're the same. I mean, like, let's say they left the island at the same time, even if they didn't leave together. So Battler drowns and winds up amnesiac, and then Yasu becomes Ikuko, gets a house and servants and crap, then is just driving all of a sudden and finds Battler unconscious on the road?

BTW how the hell did Yasu even get a driver's license? She's never even driven a car. Seriously.

It's Prime. About all we know is that 1. Battler (and maybe Yasu) left the island. 2. Battler got into a traffic accident and suffered brain damage. 3. Ikuko picked him up.

Following my theory though, she had already prepared a residence and servants and whatnot, before 1986. She had just been waiting for Battler a bit longer before finally giving up and moving there.

Though, I don't think Yasu actually has purple hair and whatnot... But appearances in Umineko don't count for much anyway.

Hm, didn't think about the driver's license.

...I dunno.

The Golden Land is also the afterlife, so Toya going there as Battler implies that 'Battler' is dead forever, either figuratively, or because Toya died on the spot.

In the same vein, Beatrice is there, along with everyone else who was on Rokkenjima. Dlanor also says that Beatrice is deceased when she is presenting Our Confession.

True. You could just as easily say that this is just Battler's funeral scene.

And well, yeah. But Beatrice's death =/= Yasu's death. That was a big part of what I was saying a bit ago.

...Hmm. It's amazing how many different theories you can make for Umineko.

[AuraTwilight]

I also noticed the parallel of Beatrice I -> Beatrice II and Battler -> Tohya, and Meta-Beato -> Chick!Beato. It's true that it could apply here... But only if Ikuko really isn't Yasu.

Practically my entire argument is "there is simply too much meaning here for me to be able to conclude that Ikuko is some minor character that only gets introduced properly in the very last episode."

Are you sure their relationship is that different? Actually, what struck me was the fact that their relationship is so similar. Isn't it Yasu's dream to create a universe of mystery stories together with Battler? And they're doing exactly that...

Well, at any rate, I guess Ikuko could just be your everyday lonely mystery novelist from a rich family that's ashamed of her...

Or Ikuko is literally Featherine.

I mean, holy shit, SHE DOESN'T AGE. She hasn't aged a day for light thirty years, what the crap!

It's Prime. About all we know is that 1. Battler (and maybe Yasu) left the island. 2. Battler got into a traffic accident and suffered brain damage. 3. Ikuko picked him up.

Where are you getting "traffic accident" from?

Following my theory though, she had already prepared a residence and servants and whatnot, before 1986. She had just been waiting for Battler a bit longer before finally giving up and moving there.

When would she have the time to do this? She's busy pretending to be like three different people and arranging for a potential Mystery Game. And how did she get these servants on a payroll? Do they just come to this empty house and do work without being supervised? Yea, right.

And well, yeah. But Beatrice's death =/= Yasu's death. That was a big part of what I was saying a bit ago.

Yes, but Battler found Beatrice's death to be significant enough to hold a funeral for her. If he's just lamenting a character's death, why would he try to revive her?

Unless he doesn't want Yasu at all, but her facade. That's hella depressing.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Or Ikuko is literally Featherine.

I mean, holy shit, SHE DOESN'T AGE. She hasn't aged a day for light thirty years, what the crap!

Wouldn't that be a hint she may be Yasu? We do know Yasu didn't look her age. Of course, this doesn't compare to looking young by the time you're in your 40s-50s, but it's a trait we know both of them share.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Unless he doesn't want Yasu at all, but her facade. That's hella depressing.

You know, I was rather sad about that when I read EP8. Battler always treated Beatrice as Beatrice, never as Yasu. I honestly expected him to call her Lion, or whatever Yasu's name was at least once.

[Toku]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Or Ikuko is literally Featherine.

I mean, holy shit, SHE DOESN'T AGE. She hasn't aged a day for light thirty years, what the crap!

Ryukishi doesn't change the character portraits much, even when the scene is years into the past or future. Ange is one of the only exceptions I can think of... And, I guess, Tohya's hair.

Where are you getting "traffic accident" from?

She found him lying in the middle of the road. It was said repeatedly that it was a traffic accident.

When would she have the time to do this? She's busy pretending to be like three different people and arranging for a potential Mystery Game. And how did she get these servants on a payroll? Do they just come to this empty house and do work without being supervised? Yea, right.

1. She has at least a billion yen at her disposal.
2. Genji and Kumasawa are very loyal to her and recognize her as the head of the family.
3. There is like a 1.5-year gap where all of the above is true.
4. If the murder mystery game is any indication, she is capable of acquiring loyalty of some form from nearly everyone in the entire family.
5. She didn't necessarily use the Kanon and Shannon personas in Prime... Battler hasn't been there in 6 years, so if everyone's busy acting out Yasu's game anyway, they could easily act like it's always been this way. Though I do think that Shannon was basically Yasu's facade during work regardless.
6. The servants probably weren't on active duty while she was still at Rokkenjima. It wouldn't make sense if they were.

Yes, but Battler found Beatrice's death to be significant enough to hold a funeral for her. If he's just lamenting a character's death, why would he try to revive her?

Unless he doesn't want Yasu at all, but her facade. That's hella depressing.

That depends in what you believe that Beatrice is. If that Beatrice is the part of Yasu who had been waiting for him for 6 years, and with whom he had discussed many mysteries, and who was his first love, it all makes sense. That Beatrice was hoping for the day that she would be taken away by Battler-

And, wow. Really? Come to think of it, she was hoping to be kidnapped. So following my theory, when she couldn't be kidnapped, she instead threw away that promise and kidnapped him.

[AuraTwilight]

Wouldn't that be a hint she may be Yasu? We do know Yasu didn't look her age. Of course, this doesn't compare to looking young by the time you're in your 40s-50s, but it's a trait we know both of them share.

Not really. No one really suspected anything weird about Yasu, and it was only a disparity of three years anyway, not DECADES.

I mean you're basically suggesting that an incest rape baby has Fountain of Youth genes. That's kind of messed up even for Umineko.

You know, I was rather sad about that when I read EP8. Battler always treated Beatrice as Beatrice, never as Yasu. I honestly expected him to call her Lion, or whatever Yasu's name was at least once.

Well, in that case it seems to be like he's respecting her wish to not have her true self revealed to people who didn't earn it, but still.

Ryukishi doesn't change the character portraits much, even when the scene is years into the past or future. Ange is one of the only exceptions I can think of... And, I guess, Tohya's hair.

Except Ange talks about how incredibly, unusually young and timeless Ikuko looks. Shes dedicates a whole page of the epilogue to it. It's not just Ryukishi being a lazy artist.

1. She has at least a billion yen at her disposal.
2. Genji and Kumasawa are very loyal to her and recognize her as the head of the family.
3. There is like a 1.5-year gap where all of the above is true.
4. If the murder mystery game is any indication, she is capable of acquiring loyalty of some form from nearly everyone in the entire family.
5. She didn't necessarily use the Kanon and Shannon personas in Prime... Battler hasn't been there in 6 years, so if everyone's busy acting out Yasu's game anyway, they could easily act like it's always been this way. Though I do think that Shannon was basically Yasu's facade during work regardless.
6. The servants probably weren't on active duty while she was still at Rokkenjima. It wouldn't make sense if they were.

This doesn't solve as many problems as you think. What about her having an entire identity and backround? What about having a whole crew of servants, and a driver's license, and pretty much an entire LIFE that requires upkeep she can't of dedicated?

also there's an entire ROOM of manuscripts that have nothing to do with Rokkenjima that servants and publishers have apparently seen. When the hell did she get the time to write these?

She can't of kept up the Ikuko thing WHILE being Yasu because her Ikuko identity requires her to be all-but-confined to her mansion. Ikuko does not have the OPTION of running a double life. If Yasu takes on Ikuko's persona she cannot take it back off. And Ikuko met Toya merely DAYS after the Rokkenjima incident.