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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-01-06, 18:39   Link #521
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
And I'm not saying that Orochimaru was stronger than Madara, Pain and so on...
you're saying hiruzen is and I'm saying that in order to stop orochi he had to sacrifice his own life. sure he was old, but nothing he did in that fight implied that he would be so tremendously better when he was younger. I'm not coming down on hiruzen. hes awesome. im saying that the powers we saw in that fight pale in comparison to things like rinnegan, susano'o, meteors and moons

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What? That makes no sense. Like I said, the fight was short, you can't say a guy can be another just from seeing him in one fight against one completely different opponent. It was stated in the manga that he beat Madara anyway so what's you point?
the moves hashirama used in that ET form were not all that impressive when compared to current fights. therefore we can assume that orochimaru's ET was not complete. kabuto even says himself that he's perfected ET beyond what orochimaru was capable of.


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Let me see if I can explain it in a way you'll understand.
please do I'm all ears for this nonsense.

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I highly doubt that all Hashirama knew how to do in a battle was use Mokuton jutsu. Surely a ninja of his caliber would be strong at using other types of jutsu. If that wasn't the case, eventually other ninjas would find ways to counter his Mokuton...like for example Madara. If Hashirama only use Mokuton then all Madara needed to do was use Amaterasu to burn the wood and Hashirama wouldn't have been able to beat him. Yet Hashirama did beat him, thus he obviously could use more than wood jutsu.
I totally agree. you dont seem to understand that you are contradicting yourself. if hashirama was capable of so much more (which we both seem to believe he is) then why not use it to beat sarutobi? simple answer: orochimaru wasnt fully adept at using him.

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That doesn't even make sense, I didn't even mention Orochimaru's use of Hashirama there. ET brings back people and the seal he implanted in their brain just takes away their free will, like I said, this means they fight normally regardless of who summoned them. Orochimaru being stronger or weaker should have no effect on how strong the First and the Second were when summoned.
And what I meant in that quote you did was that we only saw Hashirama fight once, however we've seen Yamato fight multiple times, so of course we've seen Yamato use more wood jutsu than Hashirama. Not only that but during that fight there were multiple fights going on as well, some including main characters, meaning screen time was limited.
again contradicting yourself. if they fight normally then why didnt hashirama fight to his fullest potential? im not saying yamato is stronger than hashirama, not by a long shot. but if we take all the moves yamato has used they are much more advanced than what we saw from hashirama in that fight. again this keeps proving my point that orochi wasnt able to fully utilize him.

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I never brought ET up as Orochimaru's power, what I did was say that Sarutobi fought 3 powerful ninjas, not Orochimaru and his summons, which is what we should view as since ET is not a normal summoning jutsu and should not count toward individual skill in battle.
I agree with this as I've stated before. if we do count it, then kabuto clearly is the most powerful ninja.


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What do you want me to say? Make a detailed post dictating how the fight should go? xD
Truthfully, the only real problem I see Sarutobi having would be against God realm Pain and hell...if Naruto was able to eventually take advantage of his weakness I highly doubt someone like Sarutobi wouldn't have not only figured it out quicker, but also make a plan to counter it.
I see alot more. I'd list them but id be wasting my time.

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Really...I only said that it saddened me that people seemed to forget about Sarutobi and his accomplishments just because newer, shinier and flashier characters have shown up in Shippuden.
not true. i respect him a lot and he's up there. just not above the people you originally mentioned

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Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
That's not really a fair question. Ninjutsu has evolved into an entirely different animal since the part of the manga when Sarutobi was around. It'd be more accurate to call the "jutsu" we're seeing now superpowers. I have no doubt had Hiruzen survived into this part of the manga he too would have a plethora of these superpowers as well.
right, but he did die. each generation is mostly superior to the last one, which is a common theme in naruto. jutsu now arent anymore superpowers than what sarutobi displayed. they are just more advanced and more powerful. its all magic on a very general way of looking at since no humans can do any of this stuff. the discussion is about who is the best in their primes. when all is said and done it will be naruto and sasuke almost certainly.
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Old 2012-01-06, 18:52   Link #522
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
you're saying hiruzen is and I'm saying that in order to stop orochi he had to sacrifice his own life. sure he was old, but nothing he did in that fight implied that he would be so tremendously better when he was younger. I'm not coming down on hiruzen. hes awesome. im saying that the powers we saw in that fight pale in comparison to things like rinnegan, susano'o, meteors and moons

the moves hashirama used in that ET form were not all that impressive when compared to current fights. therefore we can assume that orochimaru's ET was not complete. kabuto even says himself that he's perfected ET beyond what orochimaru was capable of.
Everything we saw at that point in the manga pale compared to the things you brought up. Naruto as a series just wasn't nearly as flashy back then as it was now; that's entirely the point.

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I totally agree. you dont seem to understand that you are contradicting yourself. if hashirama was capable of so much more (which we both seem to believe he is) then why not use it to beat sarutobi? simple answer: orochimaru wasnt fully adept at using him.
Simpler answer: Kishi hadn't conceived the kind of extreme techniques we're seeing at this stage in the game, and so shinobi that by all rights should appear much more threatening seem underwhelming as we look at them now. I'm sure that if we saw Madara in action back at that point in the manga, he wouldn't have been forming Susano'o and flinging a meteor around, either.

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right, but he did die. each generation is mostly superior to the last one, which is a common theme in naruto. jutsu now arent anymore superpowers than what sarutobi displayed. they are just more advanced and more powerful. its all magic on a very general way of looking at since no humans can do any of this stuff. the discussion is about who is the best in their primes. when all is said and done it will be naruto and sasuke almost certainly.
Which isn't at all what he meant, I don't think. The point was that what we're seeing now is much more flashy, regardless of level, than what we were seeing back then. I sincerely doubt that Kishi had planned out the crap we're seeing now way back then, and the point was that if Sarutobi were fighting in the manga right now he'd probably look considerably more impressive.

By the way, trying to use the generational argument loses quite a bit of ground given how high Hashirama and Madara are. If that system were consistent, they'd have been majorly outclassed by now.
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Old 2012-01-06, 19:06   Link #523
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^ I think you need to reread the title of this thread... also, we cant just assume people would be stronger if they lasted longer. look at K11. they dont have 'superpowers' now that the manga is more flashy
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Old 2012-01-06, 19:11   Link #524
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I totally agree. you dont seem to understand that you are contradicting yourself. if hashirama was capable of so much more (which we both seem to believe he is) then why not use it to beat sarutobi? simple answer: orochimaru wasnt fully adept at using him.
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right, but he did die. each generation is mostly superior to the last one, which is a common theme in naruto. jutsu now arent anymore superpowers than what sarutobi displayed. they are just more advanced and more powerful. its all magic on a very general way of looking at since no humans can do any of this stuff. the discussion is about who is the best in their primes. when all is said and done it will be naruto and sasuke almost certainly.
You're not listening to what me and some of the others are saying. Orochimaru used him to the full extent that Kishi has written for Hashirama at the time. Naruto is going through one of those DBZ phases Shonen's often progress too - in order to make bigger threats and bigger wins for the protagonist the powers of characters grow absurdly to the point that they barely make sense anymore. Had Kishi decided to keep Hiruzen alive, he too would have some of these ridiculous abilities as well instead of almost purely elemental ninjutsu that made up the vast majority of techniques back in that day. Back then a amazing Kekkei Genkai was Haku's ice element - it was simple and sensical (water + wind = ice) but because others were incapable of doing so it was really cool for us to see. But now we need things like turning your body into water and combining three elements to make up a new element that pretty much makes nuclear explosions - that makes no sense but it's cool for us to see, no one would be impressed by a simple ice jutsu now. This is what we're trying to say. Had the Orochimaru v Hiruzen fight taken place in Part II with what we know of Tobirama and Hashirama Hiruzen, I still would have ended the same way - with Orochimaru's arms dead, Hashirama and Tobirama defeated/sealed and Hiruzen dead because that is what Kishi wanted to write and the way it came out so of course his powers would have been heightened to an extent that it would be feasible for him to do so.

Another example would be if the Pain v Naruto fight had occurred in Part I. Obviously, he wouldn't have wiped out Konoha and killed everyone because the manga would be over - Kishi would have written him to be either 1) MUCH weaker 2) MUCH more limited in what he could do or 3) both. The plot and what occurs in it can only stretch logic so far before we have to chaulk it up to the fact that this is a story written by a human being who's bound to not have planned every single detail of his story 10+ years into the future or changed his mind in that decade of time between the points in the story.

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I think you need to reread the title of this thread... also, we cant just assume people would be stronger if they lasted longer. look at K11. they dont have 'superpowers' now that the manga is more flashy
Gai (I know he's not a K11 but he and Lee are like the same person :P) can turn into Superman on fire, Shikamaru can now actually pull his shadow off the ground and use it as a weapon directly, Hinata can make chakra demons on her hands, Ino's clan are basically Asian Professor X's. And that's just K11 - Pain can freakin rip people's souls out of their bodies with his hand! There's a Cyborg path who's head is a missle! None of these things were capable in the manga 13 years ago because, yes the characters were weaker (but that doesn't explain why their superiors couldn't do the techniques. Shikaku didn't materialze his shadow in 3D during the invasion of Konoha, Hinata's dad didn't make chakra demons on his hands, Ino's dad didn't use telepathy, etc) but moreso because they weren't feasible in the manga because 1) Kishi hadn't thought of them yet and 2) That was completely off the charts back then - things like that just didn't exist in the manga or in Kishi's head or else he would have put them in there.
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Last edited by White Silver King; 2012-01-06 at 19:24.
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Old 2012-01-06, 20:06   Link #525
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
You're not listening to what me and some of the others are saying. Orochimaru used him to the full extent that Kishi has written for Hashirama at the time. Naruto is going through one of those DBZ phases Shonen's often progress too - in order to make bigger threats and bigger wins for the protagonist the powers of characters grow absurdly to the point that they barely make sense anymore. Had Kishi decided to keep Hiruzen alive, he too would have some of these ridiculous abilities as well instead of almost purely elemental ninjutsu that made up the vast majority of techniques back in that day. Back then a amazing Kekkei Genkai was Haku's ice element - it was simple and sensical (water + wind = ice) but because others were incapable of doing so it was really cool for us to see. But now we need things like turning your body into water and combining three elements to make up a new element that pretty much makes nuclear explosions - that makes no sense but it's cool for us to see, no one would be impressed by a simple ice jutsu now. This is what we're trying to say. Had the Orochimaru v Hiruzen fight taken place in Part II with what we know of Tobirama and Hashirama Hiruzen, I still would have ended the same way - with Orochimaru's arms dead, Hashirama and Tobirama defeated/sealed and Hiruzen dead because that is what Kishi wanted to write and the way it came out so of course his powers would have been heightened to an extent that it would be feasible for him to do so.
I understand exactly what you guys are saying. I'm trying to point out that it's wrong. kishi retconned ET in order to fix this power disparity mistake between madara and hashirama by having kabuto say that he perfected it thus he is able to get more out the ninja he is controlling than orochimaru did. also you can't assume people would be more powerful if they were still around as I stated before. there are plenty of examples of old characters being left in the dust by these 'more powerful' people. the title is who is the most powerful in their prime? not who would you like to make the most powerful in your own version of the story in your head.


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Another example would be if the Pain v Naruto fight had occurred in Part I. Obviously, he wouldn't have wiped out Konoha and killed everyone because the manga would be over - Kishi would have written him to be either 1) MUCH weaker 2) MUCH more limited in what he could do or 3) both. The plot and what occurs in it can only stretch logic so far before we have to chaulk it up to the fact that this is a story written by a human being who's bound to not have planned every single detail of his story 10+ years into the future or changed his mind in that decade of time between the points in the story.
again you're just making up your own story in your head. you have to look at what actually happened. itachi had amaterasu and tsukiomi in part 1 and those are still formidable techs.

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Gai (I know he's not a K11 but he and Lee are like the same person :P) can turn into Superman on fire
jeez.. there is so much to correct in what you are saying in this last paragraph I dont think I have time. the 8 gates were mentioned in part 1. we saw up to 5. obviously 6-8 would be better.


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Shikamaru can now actually pull his shadow off the ground and use it as a weapon directly
his dad and then shikamaru himself did a similar tech in part 1 with the choke eluding to the fact that it could be manipulated

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Hinata can make chakra demons on her hands, Ino's clan are basically Asian Professor X's. And that's just K11
i never said they didnt improve. you are not understanding my words. i said their progress is not comparable to these ultra powerful ninjas in the new 'flashy' naruto. their new moves dont stand up to anyone in the top tiers of power. they got left behind since they didnt have the innate ability and talent of ninja like naruto, nagato, sasuke, etc...
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Old 2012-01-06, 20:43   Link #526
White Silver King
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I understand exactly what you guys are saying. I'm trying to point out that it's wrong. kishi retconned ET in order to fix this power disparity mistake between madara and hashirama by having kabuto say that he perfected it thus he is able to get more out the ninja he is controlling than orochimaru did. also you can't assume people would be more powerful if they were still around as I stated before. there are plenty of examples of old characters being left in the dust by these 'more powerful' people. the title is who is the most powerful in their prime? not who would you like to make the most powerful in your own version of the story in your head.
This is really all I have an interest in replying to since everything else has already been addressed and you refuse to listen. You say our theories are wrong based on our assumptions but say yours are right based on... your assumptions? Kabuto never said his ET zombies were more powerful than Orochimaru's - only Madara was said to be made more powerful as an ET than in real life. For all we know, he could have meant that he can summon an amazing amount of ETs when Oro couldn't when he said he perfected it. And you are still ignoring the meaning of our posts. We're not making this fight "in our heads" - in the context of his battle we believe Sarutobi to be the strongest based on his feats. He defeated Hashirama and Tobirama and sealed Orochimaru's jutsu as a 70 year old man, that is fact. Anything you say against that is just an assumption. Agree to disagree.
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Old 2012-01-06, 21:26   Link #527
itachi-san314
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This is really all I have an interest in replying to since everything else has already been addressed and you refuse to listen. You say our theories are wrong based on our assumptions but say yours are right based on... your assumptions? Kabuto never said his ET zombies were more powerful than Orochimaru's - only Madara was said to be made more powerful as an ET than in real life. For all we know, he could have meant that he can summon an amazing amount of ETs when Oro couldn't when he said he perfected it. And you are still ignoring the meaning of our posts. We're not making this fight "in our heads" - in the context of his battle we believe Sarutobi to be the strongest based on his feats. He defeated Hashirama and Tobirama and sealed Orochimaru's jutsu as a 70 year old man, that is fact. Anything you say against that is just an assumption. Agree to disagree.
assumptions are what this thread is about. obviously not everyone fought everyone. I'm trying to base my assumptions on things we witnessed in the manga. you are trying to recreate history and have pain fight in part 1, make sarutobi more powerful than the manga ever had him, etc... what he did was awesome. its actually one of my favorite alltime fights. but if you think his abilities in his prime would have stood up to someone like pain then you're just not letting yourself see it any other way than these false realities you have created

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Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
Kabuto never said his ET zombies were more powerful than Orochimaru's - only Madara was said to be made more powerful as an ET than in real life. For all we know, he could have meant that he can summon an amazing amount of ETs when Oro couldn't when he said he perfected it.
sorry, forgot to discuss whats wrong with this too =) having more zombies is certainly an improvement, but theres more to it than that.

reference manga ch. 513 pg 2. kabuto explains what is different about his talisman to deidara. he is just giving the ET ninjas orders. he is not fully controlling them like orochimaru did. orochi didnt know all of hashirama's powers so thats why hashirama didnt use them in that fight. if kabuto were controlling him, then we would have seen hashirama's full potential since only hashirama could know everything he could do. kabuto isnt stripping the ET zombies of their free will like orochi did, which was the problem with orochi's inferior ET. a fully functional 1st and 2nd hokage would have beaten sarutobi. to think otherwise is going against what kishi is trying to tell us with this new method of ET that kabuto is using. it doesnt make sense and it doesnt give the 1st and 2nd much credit either. kabuto just says 'kill' and the ninja use all their secret techs to do it without kabuto manipulating the whole battle or knowing what they are capable of

Last edited by Hunter; 2012-01-07 at 01:43.
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Old 2012-01-07, 07:54   Link #528
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Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
in the context of his battle we believe Sarutobi to be the strongest based on his feats. He defeated Hashirama and Tobirama and sealed Orochimaru's jutsu as a 70 year old man, that is fact. Anything you say against that is just an assumption. Agree to disagree.
I didn't really read your previous posts [sorry] so do tell me if i contradict you or are already saying something thats been said.

Personally i infer alot about what Kabuto said when he said he had perfected the Edo-Tensei jutsu. And when you say that Sarutobi is the strongest just because he defeated Hashirama and Tobirama , i personally disagree.

I mean what the F. Hashirama is the sole mokuton user but i've seen Yamato do more Mokuton than him. I really think its because Orochimaru hadn't perfected the edo Tensei jutsu so their skills were limited and their powers reduced DRASTICALLY. I'm telling you , if Hashirama was at that level , than Madara would have whopped his ass back when he was still alive.

I find it even funnier how Sarutobi couldn't fend against the 9-Tails and had to wait for Minato when he was 17years younger compared to the time where he had to fight the 1st and 2nd after the timeskip. Base on facts as you say , Hashirama and Minato were able to fend against the Bijuu , so does that make them stronger than Sarutobi? Really , i acknowledge that Sarutobi is quite the strong shinobi but i think your making a big fuss just because he defeated the 1st and 2nd who were in Zombie mode and whom i believe were not as powerful as they should be.

-edit- just something extra to point out .
About the fight between the 1st & 2nd VS the 3rd. The level they were fighting at that time could actually be counted as impressive to be fair. Since fights in Naruto timezone compared to Shippuden timezone is just sad. The fights , no matter who it featured in Shippuden all outclassed the ones showed in Naruto to be honest imo. After Shippuuden started every character seemed to be in godmode compared to Naruto. Like seriously. Just my 2 cents.
You have people instantly destroying villages , summoning Giant Meteorites and Bijuu-bombs creating craters in Shippuden. In Naruto the greatest you could go was a Rasengan-Chidori explosion effect...
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Old 2012-01-07, 12:34   Link #529
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i want to get on the sarutobi side of the fence but i just cant. yes he it has been stated that he is the greastest of the hokage, but where is the proof. there are so many ifs in the saru/oro fight that you really cant count that fight as a correct scale of his power. the age factor is just to much. and when you look at the 1st hokage i mean come on. the man could tame and use the tailed beasts with woodstyle justus(a unique justsu in itself) and has a win against a ems madara under his belt. based on this you have to admit, we have not been shown anything by the 3rd to equal or surpass this. that being said we also havent seen any of the 3rd battles in his prime. its just frustating and hard to make a final call on who is strongest.
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Old 2012-01-11, 03:11   Link #530
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i believe kimish himself said the 4th is the top of the ninja class no matter what and says he judges everyone else off that scale. But this was ages ago when he said it so he might have changed his stance.

Id say its probably 4th and then 3rd when it comes to who is more powerful in their prime.
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Old 2012-01-11, 20:09   Link #531
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Sarutobi. Yondaime second, Itachi third, Jiraiya fourth. The rest aren't even worth mentioning.

Sarutobi was clearly stronger than both Shodaime and Nidaime, COMBINED. Even after defeating both of them, Sarutobi still had enough strength to go on and make Orochimaru look like a fool. And he wasn't even in his prime; he was an old man, who should have been retired if only Yondaime hadn't died. Which brings up my next point: the village had Sarutobi serve as Hokage once again after Yondaime's death instead of choosing a new Hokage, despite Sarutobi's advanced age.

Yondaime, Itachi, and Jiraiya could also possibly be first as well, but the fact is we don't know enough about Yondaime other than during the last Great Ninja War the other villages had a "retreat on sight" order if they encountered him. Itachi had his disease, which kinda counts against him because he more-or-less died from it in the middle of battle. And while Jiraiya was arguably martially stronger than Sarutobi, he didn't have the same leadership skills that Sarutobi showed us. After all, a sense for diplomacy is a very rare trait in a shinobi.
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Old 2012-01-12, 03:08   Link #532
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Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity View Post
Sarutobi. Yondaime second, Itachi third, Jiraiya fourth. The rest aren't even worth mentioning.

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when you say that Sarutobi is the strongest just because he defeated Hashirama and Tobirama , i personally disagree.

I mean what the F. Hashirama is the sole mokuton user but i've seen Yamato do more Mokuton than him. I really think its because Orochimaru hadn't perfected the edo Tensei jutsu so their skills were limited and their powers reduced DRASTICALLY. I'm telling you , if Hashirama was at that level , than Madara would have whopped his ass back when he was still alive.

I find it even funnier how Sarutobi couldn't fend against the 9-Tails and had to wait for Minato when he was 17years younger compared to the time where he had to fight the 1st and 2nd after the timeskip. Base on facts as you say , Hashirama and Minato were able to fend against the Bijuu , so does that make them stronger than Sarutobi? Really , i acknowledge that Sarutobi is quite the strong shinobi but i think your making a big fuss just because he defeated the 1st and 2nd who were in Zombie mode and whom i believe were not as powerful as they should be.
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And he wasn't even in his prime; he was an old man, who should have been retired if only Yondaime hadn't died. Which brings up my next point: the village had Sarutobi serve as Hokage once again after Yondaime's death instead of choosing a new Hokage, despite Sarutobi's advanced age.

And while Jiraiya was arguably martially stronger than Sarutobi, he didn't have the same leadership skills that Sarutobi showed us. After all, a sense for diplomacy is a very rare trait in a shinobi.

The village only reappointed Sarutobi because at that point of time there weren't any suitable candidates. The Kyuubi attack alone killed many Shinobi. Most of the veterans were sent to battle while the younger ones were ordered to step back [people like Kakashi , Gai & Kurenai]

Not because he was stronger. I believe Sarutobi said so himself once somewhere .. I dun even wanna start on how Sarutobi couldn't take on the Nine-Tails himself and all he could do was hold on to wait for Minato. He was .. what? 17 years younger than years later when he fought both the 1st & 2nd in Orochimaru's plot to destroy the Leaf? Hashirama owned the Tailed Beasts. Yet going by your theory Sarutobi clearly outclassed the 1st & 2nd even at that old age.

The only thing i'd say makes Sarutobi a kage-level Shinobi is his mastery of all the jutsu's and his unbelievable Stamina , as u pointed out how he was capable of high-level fighting even at his old age. Other than that , i don't think he deserves to be called the strongest.

Also about your leadership part. Everyone in the Leaf respected Jiraiya. The only reason Jiraiya didn't become Hokage was because he simply didn't want to. I'd acknowledge people would follow Sarutobi as he does have basic leadership qualities for people to want to follow him , but what kind of leader lets his underlings do whatever they want? Danzo and the Elders are literally like teenage kids messing around with the village and all he ever does is try to negotiate. A true leader would have real control. Look at how Tsunade just bitches at the 2 Elders. Even Jiraiya knew to keep a weary eye against Danzo. Did Sarutobi do so? No. He literally trusted Danzo. Thats exactly how Danzo got to do the things he did , like teaming up with Hanzo the Salamander and many other evil deeds.
I make this a point as a reference to how Sarutobi handled the Uchiha massacre.
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Old 2012-01-12, 10:50   Link #533
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Hashirama owned the Tailed Beasts. Yet going by your theory Sarutobi clearly outclassed the 1st & 2nd even at that old age.
Whether Sarutobi is stronger than the 1st and 2nd or not, I don't think this is the way to go about debating that. Mokuton is specifically designed to controlling the Tailed Beasts, same way the Sharingan is; saying somebody with one of those things is stronger than somebody who doesn't because they can take care of Tailed Beasts makes no sense. It's not really fair to Hiruzen to make a comparison like that.
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Old 2012-01-12, 12:22   Link #534
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Whether Sarutobi is stronger than the 1st and 2nd or not, I don't think this is the way to go about debating that. Mokuton is specifically designed to controlling the Tailed Beasts, same way the Sharingan is; saying somebody with one of those things is stronger than somebody who doesn't because they can take care of Tailed Beasts makes no sense. It's not really fair to Hiruzen to make a comparison like that.
i think it makes sense to say that someone who can control tailed beasts is stronger than those who can't. basically the ninja bloodlines are divided from the rikudo sennin and the ultimate power of one side is mokuton and the ultimate power of the other is sharingan. so i think this translates into those ninja at the top of either side being the strongest. they are the most adept at using the ultimate ninja powers possible.

its not like yamato can control the bijou with his mokuton abilities. he can suppress them to an extent, but its far short of what hashirama, tobi, and madara are doing/have done. it was also eluded that danzo took hashirama's cells to be able to control them himself, but we saw just how difficult it is to wield that kind of power. most likely he couldn't do it yet or ever, so he was holding off.
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Old 2012-01-12, 12:40   Link #535
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i think it makes sense to say that someone who can control tailed beasts is stronger than those who can't. basically the ninja bloodlines are divided from the rikudo sennin and the ultimate power of one side is mokuton and the ultimate power of the other is sharingan. so i think this translates into those ninja at the top of either side being the strongest. they are the most adept at using the ultimate ninja powers possible.

its not like yamato can control the bijou with his mokuton abilities. he can suppress them to an extent, but its far short of what hashirama, tobi, and madara are doing/have done. it was also eluded that danzo took hashirama's cells to be able to control them himself, but we saw just how difficult it is to wield that kind of power. most likely he couldn't do it yet or ever, so he was holding off.
Except that's not what he was saying. He was saying that Hashirama is stronger than Hiruzen because he can defeat the Tailed Beasts (by way of Mokuton), whereas Hiruzen was unable to do a thing against the Kyuubi. Whether Hashirama is stronger than Hiruzen or not, their respective abilities to handle Tailed Beasts isn't an accurate measuring stick

To use a similar example, Naruto was able to handle Preta Path easily thanks to Sage Mode. Does that automatically make him stronger than anybody who can't also handle Pain's Preta Path (such as Kakashi, who would be screwed against an opponent that can block all of his Ninjutsu)?
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Old 2012-01-12, 12:57   Link #536
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Except that's not what he was saying. He was saying that Hashirama is stronger than Hiruzen because he can defeat the Tailed Beasts (by way of Mokuton), whereas Hiruzen was unable to do a thing against the Kyuubi. Whether Hashirama is stronger than Hiruzen or not, their respective abilities to handle Tailed Beasts isn't an accurate measuring stick.
I was responding to your point about having mokuton or sharingan and that making you more powerful or not since they are required for controlling bijou. I agree that it isn't everything because there are weak uchiha (compared to the strong uchiha anyway) and someone like yamato isn't near the top of the power list despite having mokuton. so all I'm saying is that having mokuton or sharingan is a valuable asset and part of a larger picture that would make up a particular ninja's total power.

being able to control the bijou using those tools is a different story imo. i think that elevates anyone who can do that above most if not all of everyone else. I should add the word forcibly though. since befriending bijou isn't a mark of power. it is to an extent since jinchuuriki who befriend them have to prove themselves worthy, but it's not as much power needed as making the bijou do what you want by force. so I would say that "forcibly controlling bijou" is one of the clear indicators in the series that that particular ninja is one of the strongest we have seen so far and stronger than those who can't do it.

this whole outer path chakra chain tech is confusing though, because I can't figure out why nagato didnt do it when trying to capture naruto. either he wasn't strong enough or didn't know how I guess, but it was tobi who ordered him to get the ninetails which leads me to believe that nagato knew how to do it but couldn't. most likely its a tech added by kishi after the fact though. but still, taking the series, on a whole, into account would lead me to believe that he wasnt powerful enough. nagato himself was a bit disillusioned with his own power since his moon was nowhere near as great as the one the rikudo sennin created. i think it fits the story to have tobi/madara just being stronger than nagato with the rinnegan techs for those reasons and just the overall reason of the author constantly introducing stronger villains than we have previously seen.
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Old 2012-01-12, 13:11   Link #537
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Whether Sarutobi is stronger than the 1st and 2nd or not, I don't think this is the way to go about debating that. Mokuton is specifically designed to controlling the Tailed Beasts, same way the Sharingan is; saying somebody with one of those things is stronger than somebody who doesn't because they can take care of Tailed Beasts makes no sense. It's not really fair to Hiruzen to make a comparison like that.
Agreed. This would be like faulting Hashirama as being weaker than Madara (before he went all freak science experiment) for being unable to take control of the Kyuubi in their fight. The Mangekyou Sharingan trumps all else in controlling the Kyuubi because that's a specific power; other ninjas can find ways to counter, nullify or otherwise get around such specific powers, as Hashirama did. Similarly, Hashirama's bloodline ability does not make him automatically better than those that don't have it; the Third Raikage was able to deal with a Tailed Beast on his own quite handily even without the First Hokage's ability, for example.
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Old 2012-01-12, 14:01   Link #538
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I was responding to your point about having mokuton or sharingan and that making you more powerful or not since they are required for controlling bijou. I agree that it isn't everything because there are weak uchiha (compared to the strong uchiha anyway) and someone like yamato isn't near the top of the power list despite having mokuton. so all I'm saying is that having mokuton or sharingan is a valuable asset and part of a larger picture that would make up a particular ninja's total power.
Don't recall saying that either though. I never implied that those shouldn't count. I was just replying to his point, and what he said was:

Hashirama can defeat Tailed Beasts (thanks to Mokuton, which is specifically designed to do exactly that). Hiruzen cannot defeat the Kyuubi. Therefore, Hashirama has to be stronger.

And I said that makes no sense. Mokuton and Sharingan are pretty much cheats when it comes to handling Tailed Beasts, so saying that somebody with one of them is automatically stronger than somebody who can't handle a Tailed Beast but doesn't have either of those is stupid.

Hashirama could be stronger. I've done some double-checking on ET, and I'm somewhat convinced now on the argument that Orochimaru's ET may have been incomplete. All I'm saying is that Hashirama isn't automatically stronger on the point of being able to handle a Tailed Beast alone, because I'm reasonably certain that if Hiruzen had Mokuton or the Sharingan he'd make a fool out of the Tailed Beasts too. That's just what those two things do.
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Old 2012-01-12, 17:49   Link #539
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Don't recall saying that either though. I never implied that those shouldn't count. I was just replying to his point, and what he said was:

Hashirama can defeat Tailed Beasts (thanks to Mokuton, which is specifically designed to do exactly that). Hiruzen cannot defeat the Kyuubi. Therefore, Hashirama has to be stronger.

And I said that makes no sense. Mokuton and Sharingan are pretty much cheats when it comes to handling Tailed Beasts, so saying that somebody with one of them is automatically stronger than somebody who can't handle a Tailed Beast but doesn't have either of those is stupid.
hmm. your point keeps sounding the same to me. I'm saying those aren't cheats in any way and are indicative of someone's power. I don't think any ability is a cheat (with the possible exception of ET, but I'd rather classify that as someone's power as well) any ability can be labeled as a cheat if you break it down into what it is strong against. kisame was weak against gai's speed and strength. that doesn't imply gai's ability is a cheat or any less powerful because of that.

Quote:
Hashirama could be stronger. I've done some double-checking on ET, and I'm somewhat convinced now on the argument that Orochimaru's ET may have been incomplete. All I'm saying is that Hashirama isn't automatically stronger on the point of being able to handle a Tailed Beast alone, because I'm reasonably certain that if Hiruzen had Mokuton or the Sharingan he'd make a fool out of the Tailed Beasts too. That's just what those two things do.
right, but this is where you slip into altering the story. hiruzen didnt have those things so it doesn't matter. if Kiba had EMS, mokuton, as much chakra as naruto and the mind of shikamaru then he would be among the best. what you're saying is totally hypothethetical
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Old 2012-01-12, 18:20   Link #540
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hmm. your point keeps sounding the same to me. I'm saying those aren't cheats in any way and are indicative of someone's power. I don't think any ability is a cheat (with the possible exception of ET, but I'd rather classify that as someone's power as well) any ability can be labeled as a cheat if you break it down into what it is strong against. kisame was weak against gai's speed and strength. that doesn't imply gai's ability is a cheat or any less powerful because of that.
You continue to miss my point. I'm not talking about Hashirama vs. Hiruzen. I'm talking about Hashirama vs. Kyuubi and Hiruzen vs. Kyuubi. In Hashirama's case he had Mokuton, which allowed him to pull out an easy win. Hiruzen has no such thing and thus would have needed brute force to defeat the Kyuubi. My entire point is that those two facts are in no way indicative of Hashirama's superiority, whether he is stronger or not.

If we're talking about comparing Hashirama's strength and Hiruzen's strength, of course Mokuton counts. But saying that their respective performances against Tailed Beasts is some kind of indication, when one of them has an ability that provides an easy win, is not the way to prove who is better.
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