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Old 2004-12-15, 22:49   Link #1061
Icehawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil-samurai
before i start watching this series , i just wanted to know if it has a crappy ending??? , i hate getting into an anime , only to find out that the ending really sucks
As I said in an earlier post, I thought the ending was good, but ultimately only you can be the judge. The series is DEFINATELY worth watching I can assure you, just make sure you prepare yourself for some disturbing imagery.
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Old 2004-12-15, 22:49   Link #1062
Reaver4k
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Lucy did not kill everyone in cold blood, Those Extras in red shirts(Well Light Blue) armed with MP-5's she killed where not in cold blood, more in self defance. And that was lucy who broke into people homes, hmmm.?

Edit:
The ending was kind of sad as well, Almost made me cry. But it was left as a cliff hanger.

I wish there was some horizontal action!

Edit: Also Elfen Lied is alot like Stephen King's Carrie. But Lucy would Kick Carries ass.

Last edited by Reaver4k; 2004-12-15 at 23:00.
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Old 2004-12-15, 23:05   Link #1063
Icehawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaver4k
Lucy did not kill everyone in cold blood, Those Extras in red shirts(Well Light Blue) armed with MP-5's she killed where not in cold blood, more in self defance. And that was lucy who broke into people homes, hmmm.?
No one said anything about Lucy killing EVERYONE in cold blood and no one said anything was wrong with killing the soldiers or anyone who threatned her.

Let me some up Lucy's heartless crimes for you:

1) 2 entire families utterly butchered just so she could occupy their houses for a few days. They didnt threaten her or anything, she just walked into the houses and killed them all without giving a second thought.

2) Kisaragi, the kind but clumbsy assistant to Director Kurama Lucy just ripped her head right off, not cleanly slicing it, but RIPPED it off right in front of him and then proceeded to use her corpse as a shield (sure its a cool scene to watch but its a heartless unnecessary crime on Lucy's part nonetheless.)

3) Kouta's sister and father (Duh) Plus several other innocent people at the fair.

4) Tearing Nana's arms and legs off one by one while standing over her. Such a level of brutality was not even REMOTELY necessary for defending herself. Again, cool to watch, in a sick twisted sort of way, but also another heartless and unnecessary thing to do, especially to one of her own "kind".

Those are the main cases raised against Lucy's character, everyone else she killed is more or less understandable.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-15 at 23:19.
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Old 2004-12-15, 23:15   Link #1064
Dr Yuya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk
No one said anything about Lucy killing EVERYONE in cold blood and no one said anything was wrong with killing the soldiers or anyone who threatned her.

If nobody has said it yet, I will. Those soldiers she killed where fighting a good fight, to keep her contained and away from society. If I ruthlessly murder a bunch of people and the police come after me, it isn't okay for me to kill them just to defend myself.

Actually, I don't think a single one of Lucys kills were justified at all, not the bully kids, not the soldiers, nobody. Number 35 would have been a just kill I suppose, but when it came to that she couldn't even succeed. I just have never seen a single reason to belive she's anything deeper than a ruthless murderer.
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Old 2004-12-15, 23:19   Link #1065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk

4) Tearing Nana's arms and legs off one by one while standing over her. Such a level of brutality was not even REMOTELY necessary for defending herself. Again, cool to watch, in a sick twisted sort of way, but also another heartless and unnecessary thing to do, especially to one of her own "kind".

Everyone else she killed can pretty well be summed up as either self defense or understandable.
Well Nana was trying to take Lucy back to the base, also Nana was ordered to kill Lucy. I would count it as self defance, desipe the how she was trying to enjoy her self at the same time. Just like that other guy that tryed to kill her.

Also I dont think Lucy realy cares about what race you are.
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Old 2004-12-15, 23:40   Link #1066
Icehawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaver4k
Well Nana was trying to take Lucy back to the base, also Nana was ordered to kill Lucy. I would count it as self defance, desipe the how she was trying to enjoy her self at the same time. Just like that other guy that tryed to kill her.

Also I dont think Lucy realy cares about what race you are.
My gods how stupid do you have to be not to realize that the LEVEL OF FORCE she used against Nana was COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY FOR SELF DEFENSE. She could have just knocked Nana out and escaped, but no, she WILLINGLY chose to lop her leg and FINGERS off and then on top of that chose to STAY their and stand over top of her and sadistically tear each remaining limb off one at a time. To call that self defense is just fucking ignorant.

It doesnt matter if Nana was trying to take her back, the level of force used made the action morally wrong and far beyond what can be considered self defense.

Edit. Forgive my flaming temperment but I just got off work and am fairly tired and not in the mood to deal with bullshit.
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Old 2004-12-16, 00:11   Link #1067
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meh... i watch anime to escape from reality, not to be in reality
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Old 2004-12-16, 02:17   Link #1068
Icehawk
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Originally Posted by Maceart
meh... i watch anime to escape from reality, not to be in reality
Wha? nobody here is even talking about whether the show is realistic or not.

The issue is the morality and reasoning behind Lucy's killings. Whether the show is real or fantasy is completely irrelevant.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-16 at 02:29.
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Old 2004-12-16, 02:40   Link #1069
Guido
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Everyone, like my new avatar?

Joining the heated debate, I guess that Ice-Hawk refers to the following picture below:



For Lucy to pay for her crimes.

However, I don't want to talk much about the morality issue.

Except when she killed the second family in episode 9 due to jealousy. She eavesdropped the mother and little kids laughing and enjoying their family time.

Because Lucy never experienced family love but rather frustration and desolation, she vent their anger upon that family out of pure envy.
She could not accept or tolerate the idea of someone else spending a happy time, therefore, she wanted them to feel miserable in order for Lucy to feel less miserable; conclusion waste them right away.

And how is it that Lucy does not views herself as a human?

She shows despair, sadness, envy, anger, frustration, grief, and wants to seek out for just a happy moment. If you ask me, that's pretty human feelings and behavior.
And also when in the last episodes she means that humans are foolish, but in doing so she also insults Kouta due that he's also human. Condradictory paradox, don't you think?
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Old 2004-12-16, 04:12   Link #1070
Icehawk
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Joining the heated debate, I guess that Ice-Hawk refers to the following picture below for Lucy to pay for her crimes.
Nah not like that, personally if I was in charge, I'm sympathetic enough to her that I'd just keep her secluded in solitary confinement in a plain room (heavily armored of course) with nothing she could manipulate. She'd be free to move around, no need for all the binding down and gaging since that doesnt stop her ability to use Vectors anyways. She'd be allowed visitation and communication rights and all that jazz so Kouta and the gang could see her whenever they want to. A case like hers is quite tragic because of the fact she had such a poor life as a kid with all that negative influence, however, she made the choice to embrace her dark side, ignorantly generalize the rest of humanity, and kill all those people that didnt deserve it and so I just cannot ignore that.

Now of course if I were in charge of making a sequel to the anime I wouldnt exactly do that. For that I would either do 3 courses of action:

1) She died from that hail of bullets that she chose to face in ep 13 and is a dead character.

2) She managed to survived but she cannot use her Vectors anymore and at the end of it all either turns herself in or is taken in.

3) She survived but she is only Nyuu now. Lucy personality is dead along with Vector ability.

Im not sure which one to choose as they would all be acceptable to me IMO, but thats the way its gotta go from this point out. No clear cut "Happily ever after" crap here. You don't spill that much blood without something coming back at you.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-16 at 04:29.
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Old 2004-12-16, 04:37   Link #1071
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Yeesh, and here I thought this whole "Lucy is cold blooded" issue was over with. There is no doubt that Lucy killed in cold blood, in fact, she killed with clear psychopathic tendencies. But like I said, animes aren't meant to be judged or measured with real life standards. When Lucy killed those families or random bystanders, the point being delivered from those scenes is display to the viewers the kind of personality Lucy has: Cold blooded and psychopathic. This is done without any forms of censoring like off-screen killshots or non-dismemberments so that the viewers can receive the best impression/impact/image of her killings.

Those dead people serves as a part of Lucy's personality/storyline developer, nothing more. The producers or the mangaka isn't going to think back later and go "oh yeah, what she did pretty much violated laws in every country in the world, let's punish her or something." When somebody said that he watched animes to escape reality, that's what he meant. It's not about what "should" happen to Lucy, if we bind her to real life laws and rules; it's about what "will" happen to her, but *without* all the real life references and considerations. And the truth is, if you watched the anime until the end, you probably developed an affection for Lucy, but much less for all those faceless guard or bystander ABCDs, and it is only natural for most of us to not want Lucy die or lose her powers (permanently at least).

Another important point is what Lucy did was REASONABLE, it's wrong, it's bad, it's downright sick and evil, but it's reasonable. That is, if *everything* in the anime actually existed, it would be *reasonable* for Lucy to do what she did. This serves well because it draws and immerses the viewers in a "believable fictional world" that allows us to connect with the characters and story even better.

Huh, I remember typing "Yeesh" then my fingers just moved on their own, I think I even used a SEMICOLON in there.
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Old 2004-12-16, 06:01   Link #1072
dreamless
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Originally Posted by 7thMethuselah
Well, the interesting thing is when you compare Nana to Lucy, they both got experimented upon and both went through some serious suffering. Licy started killing everyone off while Nana didn't I can't remember Nana hurting anybody throughout the anime. somehow I think this is trying to tell either one of two things : 1. If they have in such dire circomstances something to rely on (in essence her "father") they can keep their sanity OR 2. It could've been in Nana's character not to be violent even hough she herself didn't see anything else in her entire life.
well, I think Lucy has started killing everyone off before she got experimented upon. she kills people not out of revenge or self-defense, she kills people so the world can be cleansed of pests and she can have her own world. The only human being in this world that is not a pest to her is Kouta.

Of course what Lucy has done is reasonable, to diclonius at least. Just like we think that the slaughtering of pigs in slaughterhouse is fully understandable. And it's actually legal. There's no law saying non-humans cannot kill humans. She's a diclonius, she's not a homo sapien sapien, she's most likely a homo sapien superior. She's not insane, she's just not thinking in the homo sapien sapien way.
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Old 2004-12-16, 06:28   Link #1073
Icehawk
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When Lucy killed those families or random bystanders, the point being delivered from those scenes is display to the viewers the kind of personality Lucy has: Cold blooded and psychopathic. This is done without any forms of censoring like off-screen killshots or non-dismemberments so that the viewers can receive the best impression/impact/image of her killings.
Exactly, which is why you're not supposed to be so sympathetic to her character, how hard is that to understand? You are not supposed to forget these things or just brush them off.

Quote:
Those dead people serves as a part of Lucy's personality/storyline developer, nothing more. The producers or the mangaka isn't going to think back later and go "oh yeah, what she did pretty much violated laws in every country in the world, let's punish her or something." When somebody said that he watched animes to escape reality, that's what he meant. It's not about what "should" happen to Lucy, if we bind her to real life laws and rules; it's about what "will" happen to her, but *without* all the real life references and considerations.
First of all, since telepathy doesnt exist you are in no position to speak for what the creators themselves actually think about in regards to what happens with their characters, all you can do is analyze and speculate based on what they have already done. Secondly all this talk about "not binding them to real life laws" is making me sick. Here's a hint: do you think the laws of Elfen Lieds universe are any different from our own? You think she'd get off any easier in her fictional universe than ours? Please. Elfen Lied is an anime that is conveyed in a very realistic in your face manner and as such I think its safe to say its meant to be analyzed and thought about in a serious manner.

Quote:
Another important point is what Lucy did was REASONABLE, it's wrong, it's bad, it's downright sick and evil, but it's reasonable. That is, if *everything* in the anime actually existed, it would be *reasonable* for Lucy to do what she did. This serves well because it draws and immerses the viewers in a "believable fictional world" that allows us to connect with the characters and story even better.
No shit sherlock, everything that happens has a reason behind it. Unfortunatly in Lucy's case, her reasoning behind alot of her actions is FLAWED. Doesnt matter if she's not real. Just because something has "reasoning" behind it does not mean it is suddenly free of scrutiny or criticism or hell in anyway right.

In the end. Lucy is a tragic character who had shit constantly thrown her way and in a typical act of Juvanile human ignorance took her anger out on the world and abused her powers and ended up killing alot of innocent people. Since the situation is set up like this, you cannot just ignore or brush off the bad things she did. You have to feel sympathy for her tragic childhood BUT ALSO remember that she made the mistake of taking things way too far for ignorant reasons and as such you should not be awarding her with complete forgiveness because she simply does not deserve it.

She knows it, Kouta knows it, and anyone who actually looks back on her character should know this.





Look long and hard at those images next time you think Lucy shoud just be let off scott free. She fucking chose that path and she damn well does NOT deserve to be let off 100% free in ANYONES eyes.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-16 at 06:53.
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Old 2004-12-16, 06:53   Link #1074
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You know, icy baby... I could probably follow the mold of some of the folks I agree with in this debate and write a long, well-thought-out response, but being a burnt-out literature major in the midst of finals week, and given how heated you're getting over this, I think I'll just say that I absolutely can't take you seriously with that avatar.

Welp, I'm pretty much done here. Later, all!
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Old 2004-12-16, 21:43   Link #1075
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Woo... I guess you sort of missed my point, ne? If I was watching the anime while thinking about rights and wrongs and laws and morals and rules and all those other stuff, then of course Lucy deserves to be punished, anybody who watched the anime would agree. However, there's this little thing called suspension of disbelief. We watch animes for it's engrossing story, and for it's interesting characters, we're meant to watch it stripped down to our basic emotions: anger, sadness, joy, fear, sympathy, etc. too. Without all those real life implications burdening us.

I sympathize with Lucy because of her past experiences, enough for me so that I can find myself reasonably justify what she did. And as such, while I recognize what she did was wrong, I *don't* want to see her meet a sad end to her already sad life. Soft, maybe, but as a Crim major and worked with police and social workers, I've already seen hundreds of sick and twisted real life cases out there, so I enjoy being soft for a fictional character that I sympathize with.

Anyways, I don't feel like giving another long winded response (already getting long), I'm dropping this now, everyone's free to express their own opinions, but getting into a serious argument is just kinda silly.
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Old 2004-12-16, 22:06   Link #1076
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Well, I guess this just shows us the difference between our outlook on various things. Im all for just kicking back and suspending disbelief. Lol Im friggin sci-fi nut with star wars and anime on my mind 24/7 (lol not really but you get the idea) , I do it all the time.

However, for me personally, when I see an anime like Elfen Lied, their are just certain things that I can't ignore or blindly let go of because of the fact its so in your face and so serious. In essence I become very passionate you could say, about the subject matter because of the impact that it has and how it relates to my own views and emotions.

Also, another interesting thing to note is that for me "suspension of disbelief" doesnt just mean kick back and enjoy the ride, it also means ignore the unrealism of certain elements (ie super powers etc,etc) and just assume that the fictional world in question is real for the purpose of debate. On other BBS forums ive visited this is the typical definition for "suspenion of disbelief." We're all fans of the shows and so for fun we "suspend disbelief" and analyze and debate various aspects of the shows or movies whether its the technology and science behind it or the moral or ethical dillemas in them.

Anyways, its been an interesting discussion and I respect your opinion. I love Elfen Lied and hope to hell ADV releases it soon. It is one hell of an anime.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-17 at 02:58.
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Old 2004-12-17, 10:36   Link #1077
Elbowlick
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This thread needs more Nana!







More: http://manga.clone-army.org/nana.php

Anyway, IceHawk, I'd disagree that she killed 'innocent' people. After all, those special forces and doctors were all conducting inhuman experiments on small children, killing off babies (well, at least Kurama did, but the other doctors certainly supported it), and generally did not place a very high value on human (or diclonius) life.

When I look at Elfen Lied, I don't see the show even asking you to forgive Lucy. It's not interested in forgiveness. Mind you, Kouta and Lucy might be interested in forgiveness and forgiving, but the message of the show certainly isn't that. Rather, Elfen Lied is about rebalancing everyone's Karma -- Karmic debts are repaid, and moral accounts are settled. You really only need to look at Nana, Mariko, and Kurama's end to see that. Heck, you even see that in the bit-characters like Mariko's caretaker: although she considers herself Mariko's mom, she is repaid for imprisoning Mariko with death, and Mariko is repaid for killing her caretaker by losing an arm, and being turned into a weapon to capture Lucy. (Aside: And note that Kuruma and Mariko only get to reconcile at the cost of their lives, at the end).

When it comes to Lucy, you can see the same kind of story playing out along the entire series. At the beginning she's a smart girl who believes in treating people humanely, becomes dirtied after deciding that humans are worthless and kills a bunch of people, and since she doesn't end up dying in the end, though, I'd say she end up being *just short* of breaking even... but that suits Lucy well. Living with the weight of her past deeds, and with Kouta's imouto's death hanging over her head, it's hard to say that it isn't a fitting end. She's certainly not being forgiven for anything; Lucy knows she can't be forgiven. And Kouta doesn't forgive her. But what *does* happen, is that her Karmic balance sheet gets a little closer to evening out. She'll neve balance it out, but that's the weight she has to bear.

So, in short, in my view, Lucy's story (and the show in general) is about karmic rebalancing, not forgiveness, law, justice, or anything like that. To look for those kinds of messages is to miss the point of the show.

------

You can see this kind of thing happening in shows like Kimi Ga Nozoumu Eien, as well. People are thrown into a strange circumstance, they're stained with great misdeeds, and spend the entire series stuggling and suffering while trying to balance things out. No one is innocent, but it's hard to blame any one of them for their actions. It's rather like watching a train accident happen in slow motion, over 14 episodes. It makes for great drama, but when people call it a romance show, again, I think they rather miss the point, too... it's a show about the settling of accounts, debts, and terrible circumstances -- Anything about 'forgiveness' only serves as a small weight to help balance the karma sheet; it's not an end within itself.
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Old 2004-12-17, 10:48   Link #1078
dreamless
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Originally Posted by Elbowlick
Anyway, IceHawk, I'd disagree that she killed 'innocent' people. After all, those special forces and doctors were all conducting inhuman experiments on small children, killing off babies (well, at least Kurama did, but the other doctors certainly supported it), and generally did not place a very high value on human (or diclonius) life.
err... Lucy surely killed plenty of innocent people, like those families she killed, those people at the fair, and Kouta's sister and father of course.

I'm not sure about the karmic balance stuff, we never need to balance out our karma for killing pigs and eating them. Why should a superior lifeform balance out karma for killing inferior lifeforms?

For the theme of the show, I guess the title Elfen Lied speaks it well already. Beings from a different (and superior) species in the human society.
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Old 2004-12-17, 11:11   Link #1079
Icehawk
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I'm not sure about the karmic balance stuff, we never need to balance out our karma for killing pigs and eating them. Why should a superior lifeform balance out karma for killing inferior lifeforms?
I would hardly consider a "diclonius" to be all that superior and definately NOT deserving to be considered above human law or anything like that. They still have all the limitations and physical fragility and emotional weaknesses that a standard human does and their intelligence is no different than a humans. Plus the little fact they can breed with and look just like us save for one feature. Its nothing like comparing a Human to pig.

To consider them to be so different and separate from us is ridiculous and is completely counter to what we see and in fact one of the central messages from the show; The fact that they are NOT so different and so deserve to be treated with the same love and respect you would a fellow human. At least thats one of the basic messages I got, and it seems rather self evident. Kinda like how in X-Men, the "mutants" are for all intensive purposes HUMANS that really deserve to be treated as such.



EDIT: Eldowick, if you'd read my posts you'd see I wasnt referring to the killing of the soldiers or the bad scientists, but anyways, that debate is over and I don't wish to dive back into it since I've made my points as clear as I can and whether you agree with them or not is up to you.

However on a separate note, your idea about the whole "Karmic balancing" in the show is actually an interesting take on it, something I didnt think of.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-17 at 11:35.
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Old 2004-12-17, 11:35   Link #1080
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well, they have psychic vector hands, they have instinctive desire to kill humans while intinctively friendly to other animals, so I won't say they are humans. Humans have instinctively cruel to other animals. Judging by the title, they are meant to be something similar to elves I guess. Also Karma is different from social laws and things. Actually now I think about it, if we go by the concept of Karma as in Buddhism, then you indeed need to pay for killing and eating pigs because of Karma

As far as I see, there's no major theme like "forgiveness" or "karma" in this series. You are putting too much emphasis on Lucy, while in the show it has a lot to do with Nana and Mariko and the other characters. Really, it's not that focused on Lucy. So I'd say it's more about beings different from humans in a human society, rather than some personal forgiveness or karma stuff about Lucy. How many episodes out of the 13 has anything even remotely to do with Lucy's "karma"? 2 to 3 episodes at most. that's hardly a main theme or focus.
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