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Old 2010-08-18, 05:21   Link #4521
Used Can
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Hey guys, can you help me out? I remember one scene in which Ange was lashing out at Beato about her being the murderer of her family and the like, and then Beato told her something along the lines "what if your parents were the culprits?". I'm 100% sure something like that happened, but not matter how much I search for it, I cannot find it, since EP4 is rather long.
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Old 2010-08-19, 14:30   Link #4522
UsagiTenpura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neeTHREE View Post
Firstly, sorry about the double post. I thought about posting this in Bernkastel's thread but the restrictions prompted me to post here...

What are the latest theories on her?
Spoiler:
As far as we know she's completely unrelated to Higurashi's rika. This isn't really spoilerific but I didn't start to think heavily about this before arc 5 so I'll put it in spoilers.
Spoiler for Bernkastel theory:
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Old 2010-08-24, 21:23   Link #4523
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Hey guys, can you help me out? I remember one scene in which Ange was lashing out at Beato about her being the murderer of her family and the like, and then Beato told her something along the lines "what if your parents were the culprits?". I'm 100% sure something like that happened, but not matter how much I search for it, I cannot find it, since EP4 is rather long.
That's something kinda different. It's Battler during the final showdown that proposes a theory with Rudolf as the culprit and Beatrice mocks him:

"Fuhhahhahhaaaaaaahhh!! How could a man who promised to bring Ange her parents home speak of a theory where those parents are the culprit?

Just fine, even so, it's just fiine, alriiiiiiiight? You can be a big, happy family getting their hands dirty with mass murder, and return to Ange stained with blood that will never come oooooooooff! Isn't that perfectly fitting for the survivors of the witch's islaaaaaaaaaand?"
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Old 2010-08-24, 21:27   Link #4524
Used Can
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I remember that convo, but I'm quite certain Beato told Ange something along those lines.
I guess I'll have to replay EP4.

Anyway, thanks man.
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Old 2010-08-25, 11:19   Link #4525
Keriaku
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
It could be Kakeras such as Higurashi. However that seems very unlikely so far, simply because bottles containing the letters explaining various arcs seems to exists in every arc's future.

The I believe most accepted version for now, is that each arc is only a tale. Remember to the external world the arcs exists as message bottles. It has no "true" value, however since no one knows what really happened on Rokkenjima, and all these tales were "possible ways" for it to have happened, there's no way to discard them. This comes in two variation in a way. One is that the "present" is the future that follows Rokkenjima, and the other is that the events of "real Rokkenjima" are either occurring in the present or haven't occurred yet.
The way I saw it, it seemed that Ryuu was presenting that different tellings inside the cat box were essentially the same as alternate universes. I didn't think he was trying to differentiate the kakera from the 'fiction' at all.
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Old 2011-04-15, 06:14   Link #4526
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Quick question, about the Virgilia Vs Beatrice magic battle.

Does "God of Death" written the same as "Death God"?

Because, If it does,

Spoiler for Dumb Exlplaination:
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Old 2011-07-04, 22:27   Link #4527
Meltyred
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So I watched the anime, and I have a question about the "kinzo is dead from the start" Blue truth. (or more specifically, the red truth used to counter it.
Didn't Beatrice use the red truth to say that there are only 18 people on the island? (in the second game I think.)
Then does it mean that she lied?
Or is it a translation error?
Could it have been instead, "There are only 18 or less people on the island."
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Old 2011-07-04, 22:45   Link #4528
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltyred View Post
So I watched the anime, and I have a question about the "kinzo is dead from the start" Blue truth. (or more specifically, the red truth used to counter it.
Didn't Beatrice use the red truth to say that there are only 18 people on the island? (in the second game I think.)
Then does it mean that she lied?
Or is it a translation error?
Could it have been instead, "There are only 18 or less people on the island."

In Banquet (the third game), Beatrice announced There are no more than 18 people on this island.. I believe the wording has been consistent throughout both the games and the anime.
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Old 2011-07-04, 22:55   Link #4529
Meltyred
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
In Banquet (the third game), Beatrice announced There are no more than 18 people on this island.. I believe the wording has been consistent throughout both the games and the anime.
Must be the subs I was watching then...
It did have some typos.
I see...
So according to ep4, Battler is indeed Rudolf's son, just not the son of Asumu huh....
No wonder Kyrie was seething with hatred.
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Old 2011-07-05, 00:29   Link #4530
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltyred View Post
Must be the subs I was watching then...
It did have some typos.
If you haven't read the text versions of those episodes (which you should since there are a number of important plot bits missing from the anime), I'd recommend at least taking a look at the red truth list on Wikia. Otherwise you might be blindsided quite badly later.
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Old 2011-07-05, 01:30   Link #4531
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I am planning to read the VN, after I get over the art.
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Old 2011-08-02, 12:59   Link #4532
Xyrius Cherubim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
If you haven't read the text versions of those episodes (which you should since there are a number of important plot bits missing from the anime), I'd recommend at least taking a look at the red truth list on Wikia. Otherwise you might be blindsided quite badly later.
anyway, dont read too much of them just yet...it might kill the fun of guessing how the story will unfold afterwards. lol
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Old 2012-01-16, 15:22   Link #4533
RandomAvatarFan
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So, I guess for most people the common approach to attack Beatrice is through Bernkastel's hint at the end of EP1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernkastel
First of all, about that girl. She does have the name Beatrice, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she is 'one individual woman'... Her existence is a personification of the rules of this world.
This basically tells us that 'Beatrice' isn't a witch killing everyone, but rather a name used to describe the force that did.
But I wonder how much that fits. Would each Demon and Witch on the gameboard be a different "force".

Stop thinking about these as characters, but just as a "force" which could be one of the 18, or a method or tool used by the culprit.

Beatrice = Force X
EVA = Force Y
Stakes = Force S

So In EP3, Force Y and Force X directly opposed each other. In EP4, Ange encounters Force Y again. In other words: In EP4, Ange sees what killed her family in EP3. Force X and Force Y use Force S to kill the Ushiromiya family in 1986, but Ange uses Force S to kill Sumadera's goons. In other words: In EP4, Ange uses the same technique that killed her family against the guys with guns.

This theory basically states that everything is exactly how it seems, and that there is a one to one correlation between the fantasy elements and the "true forces".

Yet at the same time, it's really difficult to come up with "one force" to fit inside each witch or demon.
Spoiler for Higurashi EP8:


I must say, EP4 is the most difficult, despite I haven't figured out any of the other chapters. The 1986 game board is really messed up by magic, and I have troubles figuring out what the 1998 board is really supposed to mean.

As for the Meta Witch Trio (Beato, Bern, Lambda)
Spoiler for Higurashi:
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Old 2012-01-16, 18:29   Link #4534
immblueversion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Spoiler for Higurashi:
Very close, but apparently not quite true as revealed in later games; then again, we had no way of knowing exactly what happened when those games came out.

Spoiler for Higurashi:
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Old 2012-01-16, 18:42   Link #4535
AuraTwilight
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Spoiler for Higurashi/Umineko:
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Old 2012-01-16, 22:00   Link #4536
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Alright hear my blue truth:

Spoiler for Why I think the servants of OWB are suspicious.:


What does this say about anything? Keep this in mind as I explain the first twilight of EP4. I'm assuming that everyone has finished reading the Episode.

Spoiler for Long description of EP4 1st Twilight:

Yeah, I know... tl;dr but it's a start. I don't have any real names other than Nanjo and Genji, even though I did come up with a theory regarding EP4's test that said basically if we applied the test to the culprit and their means, everything else like motive and the circumstances would fall into place, I'm really at a lost. I mean yeah, that's a lot of gold, and as George said in Legend, that much gold is roughly the price of a life. And trying to apply "Sacrifice one to gain two" to something like this isn't as easy as I thought.

My feelings is that whatever happened to everyone, the culprit and victims, they at some point had to choose one of those three choices. It may not have been a literal test, but you hear about it like when a natural disaster occurs, where a parent is in a situation where not everyone in her family can be saved. I don't like thinking about that, because it's scary and sad, but I'm sure the incident in Rokkenjima 1986 was a tragedy in it's truest sense. If that "test" was given to even the four people shown to take it, then this is something greater than the epitaph.
The test is indeed related to the deaths. I'm sure of it. And if this test is related to the deaths, then the relationship of the epitaph and the deaths is weakened.

Ugh, sorry for all these ramblings. I don't really have anywhere else to go to discuss this.
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Old 2012-01-16, 22:15   Link #4537
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Kinzo only allowed six people to enter his study:
Kinzo, Beatrice, Genji, Shannon, and Kanon. This is exclude the party held in the Legend, as well as Battler's meeting in Turn.
That's five people. Who's the sixth?

Quote:
The servants of the OWB and Nanjo are suspicious!
Think about it... what were they doing in Kinzo's study?
Creating an alibi for Kinzo being alive, since Krauss and Natsuhi, their current masters, are the ones upholding the charade. This doesn't make any of the servants suspicious of murder.

Quote:
Genji died on the first twilight only in Banquet and Alliance. In both of these, Ronove was placed on the board right before he died. Ronove had describe himself by saying "Genji is my vessel." When Beatrice announced that Genji was dead, he may not have died in our sense, but rather, "Ronove" took over and now Genji is "dead". This is similar to the theory that Battler took up about Jessica in EP3, but since Battler only asked about Jessica, EVA only responded about Jessica. As of EP4, there is nothing written in red to say otherwise.
Battler confirms Genji's corpse later, so he was killed. On that same note, the ceramic dolls are the "vessels" for the Siestas, but they aren't present on the island, and Kumasawa is elsewhere while Virgilia is doing things, same for Eva and Eva-Beatrice, etc.

"Vessel" only refers to what the magical character is based off of. Ronove does not inhabit Genji's body to do things.

Quote:
Something happened before people died... maybe like a poison that they ingested. Existence of such a poison is Devil's Proof. But anyway, the hostages aren’t underneath Kuwadorian, but in a place that leads to it.From what we’ve seen in EP3, there are indeed tunnels that lead underneath Kuwadorian, and it was stated even in EP2, that Kinzo would often dissappear and the servents had no way of really knowing where he was, and it would take several trips to the stufy to find him
again. (Note that the statements themselves aren't fact, they are in red because those words were said in EP2)
There's still the troubling timeframe. It took them only a bare few minutes to contact the children. Even if, hypothetically, the captives were directly under the dining room (which isn't possible, by the way), it would require the culprit dragging five fairly heavy individuals, by himself most likely, out of the building, through some outdoors secret passage, and then into a cell, then waiting for the drug to wear off so they can phone the children.

Most likely, the five captives aren't prisoners at all, and are merely in on the deception, for exactly the same reason Kyrie tells Battler the story about witches and golden threads and demons.

Quote:
While the servants of the OWB told stories of disappearing!Kinzo, they are the ones most likely to be aware of all of this. Only three servants of the OWB are on the island on October 4th, and out of the three, Genji is the most likely, since he was Kinzo's friend! My theory on Genji and Ronove reconciles with what see in the first twilight with this theory.
Genji had his face smashed apart with the same sort of weapon that was used to kill everyone else in the Dining Room. Even if he was killed later, someone else would have had to kill him with the same weapon in the same room, heavily implying he died at the same time.

Quote:
This also complies with Knox's Decalogue as these "secret" tunnels were revealed to us before the answers were (read: they weren't something just made up at the very end of Chiru, which I haven't read btw.) Although a giant labyrinth is a bit of cheating on the "no more than one" part of his rule, it still complies with everything that we are actually shown up to this point.
Incorrect. These secret tunnels do not count as revealed unless Battler, our detective character, observes them, because otherwise the tunnels are just as likely to be a complete fantasy just like the magical characters. Therefore, you are violating Know's Decalogue.
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Old 2012-01-17, 19:34   Link #4538
RandomAvatarFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight (paraphrased) View Post
You are incompetent
:P

But... but... secret tunnels can explain *everything*. And with that I begin to get sucked into the anti-mystery. I mean even in Higurashi, we couldn't trust what the narrator was showing us. Why should we trust what Battler sees? What does "These secret tunnels do not count as revealed unless Battler, our detective character, observes them." mean? Piece!Battler always had a limited view of the events of 1986, and Meta!Battler observes everything from the MetaWorld, regardless of if it's fantasy or real. And are you now saying that everything Ange sees in 1998 is a lie, because she is not our one detective? That actually would explain the strange cast list at the end...

Spoiler for EP4 End of Chapter Cast List:



Oh, and the sixth person was Nanjo. Who is still suspicious alongside the Servants OWB. My feelings is that in the fantasy scene of EP3, 1st twilight, as far as the three of the OWB, they were pretty much prepared and expected to die. I know that's where you learn that you really can't trust everything, even emotions, but you have to trust *something*.
My feelings is that they do know the truth of the woman Kinzo is expecting to appear that night, "Beatrice", as well the truth behind Kinzo. There's something about their situations that seem... I don't know... off.

Also, Beatrice's red All the victims of the first game are guaranteed.
Yes, everyone died at the end, but could it be referring at the end? You could say that the red isn't possible until it is true. For instance Beatrice can't confirm anyone's death until afterwards, right? Did she confirm any of EP1's deaths happened the way they appeared? Someone may have died after it was believed he or she was already dead, and since Beatrice's red declaration wasn't made until after the game was over, everyone in the first game *was* already dead by the time Beato made that declaration. The only time it was confirmed that anyone was alive was during Nanjo's murder in EP3 and right before the end of EP4.Kinzo, Krauss, Natushi, Hideyoshi, George, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Nanjo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, and Kumasawa was dead at the beginning of every game. It's some sort of delusion going on in Battler's mind. There is not enough information to prove otherwise.
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Old 2012-07-03, 19:57   Link #4539
RandomAvatarFan
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Hey, I know it's a double post and what not, but I saw something really funny, I don't know if it was ever noticed.

Chiyo Kumasawa's son. What is his name?

Google translate knows it. Only Kumasawa baa-chan...
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Old 2012-07-03, 20:18   Link #4540
GabrieliosP
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The fact his name is a type of mackerel? It is funny indeed but at least for me it is old news (not sure about some people).
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