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Old 2012-01-16, 01:42   Link #2001
asaqe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa547 View Post
I disagree that moe is solely responsible for this trend, for there's a lot of other factors one must look into.



Have to be a bit realistic about this trend: some of them are probably obliged to work first (owing to the ongoing post-3/11 economic problems that country has to weather through), some feel they have low chances of marriage, some find the married life too troublesome, some are hopelessly isolated from society, or some don't have the looks or anything significant to attract the opposite sex.
A lot more shocking in Japanese Society since compared to Western Entertainment where there is news of who's banging who. Female idols and occassionally female Seiyuus must become the equivilant of a Vestal Virgin. The day Japan makes gay marraige legal could probably allow them to marry within the same sex but they must never marry another man until way past their prime.
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Old 2012-01-16, 01:45   Link #2002
FateAnomaly
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I don't see how not falling in love is considered selfish.
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Old 2012-01-16, 01:50   Link #2003
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
I don't see how not falling in love is considered selfish.
Take it from me... it actually is. One becomes ever more focused on self and how self feels -- rather than consideration for that of another. Avoidance of relationships very much falls into that effect.
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Old 2012-01-16, 12:44   Link #2004
Endless Soul
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On the bright side, many of those confirmed bachelors/bachelorettes will be saving some money for themselves.

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Old 2012-01-16, 13:23   Link #2005
Dhomochevsky
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This is complete nonsense.
Anyone of those men saying "2D>3D" would jump on the first real girl that showed some signs of willingness. To actually believe they would go for a sexless life out of their own choice is braindead stupid.
What they really want to avoid is not sex, but the hassle that comes with a relationship. If there was sex without that, they would gladly take it over any moe.

Incidently, this is the topic of many moe anime: The surprise girlfriend out of nowhere, the "forced" harem, the non existent effort for getting any girls interest into the male char (they are all childhood friends, bound to him by story, or deeply in love with him for no obvious reason). Never has the male lead to actually work for a girls attention, it is always out of fate, coincidence, or just forced by storywriting, that they swarm on him, rather than anyone else.

There are social aspects at play here, but moe anime and otaku culture is the result of it, not the cause.
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Old 2012-01-16, 14:41   Link #2006
Vexx
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Personally, I call this a "natural selection" moment.... all I have to do now is convince the women that harems mean less hassle for them as well
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Old 2012-01-16, 19:08   Link #2007
JMvS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Personally, I call this a "natural selection" moment.... all I have to do now is convince the women that harems mean less hassle for them as well
Especially if we consider the gender imbalance in Japan.
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Old 2012-01-16, 19:17   Link #2008
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Especially if we consider the gender imbalance in Japan.
If you want a good gender balance for a harem, go to Russia.

Where's Japan's gender imbalance?
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Old 2012-01-16, 19:51   Link #2009
solomon
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Real hard to comment on as I haven't been there yet. What's more I don't see any commentary on this in formal Japanese news media that I read, is this commented on outside of the wide shows? (I really don't wanna watch wide shows)

And mystique is right, the BBC piece did seem like it was "managed" for a compelling narrative.

I did read about this in college though, it just seems like a huge paradigm shift that's happening very slowly with a different texture. As far as women shaking off traditional gender norms. In highly patriarchal Japan, some blow back IS understandable. My sensei said Japan is like the West as far as women's lib/empowerment just about 30 years behind.

Still from what I read it depends on age IMO. It seems like in Japan that if youre over 35, youre not marketable for dating. I know it's loosened somewhat but it's still there. Young guys see older guys out of luck and they'll probably get depressed and not try.

Economic problems and issues are likely also to blame. Japanese economy is neutral and stuck for many reasons, leads to lots of uncertainty.

However, I also think it's a low level rebelling of custom possibly. Take Herbrivore males, in America we see them as being "unnaturally sissy wimps" for rejecting romantic (and sexual) pursuits.

I've read some commentary by Japanese Social scientists that in a way, some guys are just trying to get away from what their dads did. Marry quickly pop out a few kids and toil away mercilessly at a large corporation for life. Some saw that as a bad influence on their family life, some probably just have no interest in pursuing such a life style.

The key is how long before this becomes so entrenched and noticable that the rulling classes do something very different. Given the average profile and especially age of the government and other influential parties, it may take a while.
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Old 2012-01-16, 20:42   Link #2010
solomon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji01 View Post
First of all, I think the image of Koreans have been improving a lot since the Winter Sonata took the housewives by storm.

.

3) some people feel that the trend is only created by the media and not really happening in real life.
This is still a controversial topic, but there was an incident where thousands of people went and demonstrated in front of Fiji television saying that they were forcing Korean television on to the japanese, despite many of them not really being interested in it.
It's hard to pin point how this happened, but most probably because we still do care about what happened in the past.
Every since the demos happened, you can see in online forums where people make racist comments about the Koreans and how they keep trying to make business off of the Japanese.
It has come to an extent where people are not buying Korean products, and canceling SoftBank phone accounts. (SoftBank is owned by a Japanese korean CEO)
This is interesting as with anime at any rate it seems like it has good penetration across Asia. You could find ONE PIECE on KBS in Korea, ATV in Hong Kong,

Now I am not sure about J-Dramas as I don't watch them are they exported to other Asian countries often?
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Old 2012-01-16, 21:38   Link #2011
NaweG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Now, if you're a single (and maybe desperate) white person, you can go to Japan and land yourself a partner (BF, GF, potential spouse)...
Without commenting on the "maybe desperate" part... I somehow had the understanding that part of the problem was a lack of willingness to partner with outsiders? Hence the whole immigration issue that has been discussed.

I was also rather of the understanding that if you did find a partner, that they'd expect you to move there rather than to move to the US, UK, elsewhere with you?

Or have I got it wrong?
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Old 2012-01-16, 21:58   Link #2012
FateAnomaly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Take it from me... it actually is. One becomes ever more focused on self and how self feels -- rather than consideration for that of another. Avoidance of relationships very much falls into that effect.
And people in relationships don't exhibit the same traits...?
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Old 2012-01-16, 22:22   Link #2013
solomon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaweG View Post
Without commenting on the "maybe desperate" part... I somehow had the understanding that part of the problem was a lack of willingness to partner with outsiders? Hence the whole immigration issue that has been discussed.

I was also rather of the understanding that if you did find a partner, that they'd expect you to move there rather than to move to the US, UK, elsewhere with you?

Or have I got it wrong?
I don't really know if there is an expectation. Could be, it'd be understandable with any culture. But especially Japan which places on a lot of emphasis on harmony and relationships.

I'd hardly be a fan of doing so however.

On the immigration thing, it's historical. Japan was for centuries as closed country by policy. Plus look at places in Western Europe for example, they are having troubles grappling with immigration despite being more "cosmopolitan" than the Japanese by a mile.
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Old 2012-01-16, 23:09   Link #2014
ChainLegacy
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It's almost a knee jerk reaction as a foreigner interested in their culture to feel negatively regarding their attitudes towards immigration. From an anthropological point of view, it is kind of nice that they are preserving their identity despite all the outside influences they take in as such a powerful economic world player. And if you study Japanese history, it's no surprise they maintain this balance better than some other places (which may become more 'westernized'). They've been doing it with China for hundreds of years.
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Old 2012-01-17, 03:03   Link #2015
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Personally, I call this a "natural selection" moment.... all I have to do now is convince the women that harems mean less hassle for them as well
How is that less of a hassle?
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Old 2012-01-17, 03:28   Link #2016
asaqe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon View Post
This is interesting as with anime at any rate it seems like it has good penetration across Asia. You could find ONE PIECE on KBS in Korea, ATV in Hong Kong,

Now I am not sure about J-Dramas as I don't watch them are they exported to other Asian countries often?
Well in time it will decline with newer shows design to completely alienate viewers overseas through the audacity of content.
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Old 2012-01-17, 03:44   Link #2017
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
What they really want to avoid is not sex, but the hassle that comes with a relationship. If there was sex without that, they would gladly take it over any moe.
Well, I will agree that 2D > 3D isn't so far remove the "who needs girls when you have video games" stuff I remember (much as I'd prefer not to) espousing in my teens, so I think it's safe to say much of it is bravado and nerd pride. That said, speaking as a moe fan though, it would take a lot more than some sex to make me quit moe culture, simply because that wouldn't replace everything I get out of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
Incidently, this is the topic of many moe anime: The surprise girlfriend out of nowhere, the "forced" harem, the non existent effort for getting any girls interest into the male char (they are all childhood friends, bound to him by story, or deeply in love with him for no obvious reason). Never has the male lead to actually work for a girls attention, it is always out of fate, coincidence, or just forced by storywriting, that they swarm on him, rather than anyone else.
Careful - I think you're confusing harem anime and moe anime. Harem anime has assimilated a lot of moe's sensibilities, but harems and dream girls have been around in anime for a long, long time. The more interesting change to me is in what archetypes people go for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
There are social aspects at play here, but moe anime and otaku culture is the result of it, not the cause.
I've always kind of wondered why they got this specific result though. I mean, you've got disgruntled geeks everywhere - most of them turn to other forms of nerd escapism. I would be hard pressed to say I was disgruntled in either my pre-moe fan phase or my moe fan phase - until I got pissed off about "lonely otaku stereotypes" and started looking to prove them wrong.

Now that being said, I do think that the rise of the herbivore male plays a role here. A man needs to reject - or at the very least arms length relationship with - machismo to embrace something as cutesy and "girly" (how often do people mistake moe for shoujo?) as moe culture.
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Old 2012-01-17, 06:00   Link #2018
JMvS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
If you want a good gender balance for a harem, go to Russia.

Where's Japan's gender imbalance?
From wikipedia:
Quote:
Sex ratio

(2010 est.)

at birth: 1.056 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.02 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.74 male(s)/female
total population: 0.95 male(s)/female

(2006 est.)

at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
1564 years: 1.01 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.73 male(s)/female
total population: 0.95 male(s)/female
So yeah, Japan has a clear gender imbalance, with something like 6-7 millions more (elderly) ladies than gents, altough of course it's nos as bad as Russia, where it concerns the whole adult population:

Quote:
Sex ratio

at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
1564 years: 0.92 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.46 male(s)/female
total population: 0.86 male(s)/female (2009)[26]
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Old 2012-01-17, 06:35   Link #2019
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
From wikipedia:


So yeah, Japan has a clear gender imbalance, with something like 6-7 millions more (elderly) ladies than gents, altough of course it's nos as bad as Russia, where it concerns the whole adult population:
If you include the total number of anime/manga/game/light novel characters, what would the statistic come to?
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Old 2012-01-17, 06:54   Link #2020
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
From wikipedia:

So yeah, Japan has a clear gender imbalance, with something like 6-7 millions more (elderly) ladies than gents, altough of course it's nos as bad as Russia, where it concerns the whole adult population:
I hesitate to describe sex ratios of 0.95 to 1.05 as indications of "gender imbalance". The range falls very much within the norm, as shown by equivalent ratios in most other countries. Compare Japan's ratios with those of China and India, for example, where infanticide, especially of female babies, is known to be widespread.

China
at birth: 1.133 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.17 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.93 male(s)/female
total population: 1.06 male(s)/female (2011 est.)

India
at birth: 1.12 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.13 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.07 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.91 male(s)/female
total population: 1.08 male(s)/female (2011 est.)

Source: CIA World Factbook


In practice, a perfect ratio of 1 doesn't exist anywhere in the world. Why that is so is subject to debate and remains very much a mystery.
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