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Old 2004-12-17, 11:45   Link #1081
Icehawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
well, they have psychic vector hands, they have instinctive desire to kill humans while intinctively friendly to other animals, so I won't say they are humans. Humans have instinctively cruel to other animals. Judging by the title, they are meant to be something similar to elves I guess. Also Karma is different from social laws and things. Actually now I think about it, if we go by the concept of Karma as in Buddhism, then you actually indeed need to pay for killing and eating pigs because of Karma
Vectors are just that, Vectors, a power, just like the X-Men have crazy powers that make them superior in combat. That doesnt make them above humanity in terms of how they should be treated and how they should be expected to treat other people in kind, Ive already explained this anyways so I don't know why I need to repeat it. Thats just the way it is.

Also, humans DO NOT instinctively wish to be cruel to other animals at all. Hunting them for the purpose of food and survival is completely different from having a burning desire to kill and torture and mutilate which is what you seem to be confusing it with.

As for the Karma thing, I never said I fully agree with it, just that I thought it was an interesting take on the whole thing.
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Old 2004-12-17, 12:04   Link #1082
dreamless
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no, I mean human kids playing with ants, dragonflys, little birds, etc. etc. that kind of behavior is actually not exclusive to humans. it's quite common among other animals too. Diclonius have the instinctive desire to kill humans while not harming other animals even when attacked, that's definitely different from humans.

Why Diclonius are expected to treat humans in kind when they have instinctive desire to kill humans? And sure they are capable of human emotions and can mate with humans, lifeforms under the same family can mate with each other, but that doesn't mean two species under the same family can't be natural enemies of each other. Heck, horses and donkeys can mate and have offsprings, lions and tigers can mate and have offsprings, but they are different species for sure. And tigers don't follow lions' rules, donkeys don't follow horses' rules. Also it's natural for an evolved species to have traits of the species they evolve from.

X-Men are not homo sapiens, they are homo superiors, they are a different species from humans, that's the official word as far as I know, and if they want to break away from human society, they can. That's why they are a superior species. Also I think species like homo habilis and homo erectus are not considered humans. For laws and society rules, they are all man-made laws and rules, ie. we humans made them. If you let pigs write laws they'll forbid humans to eat them for sure, if they can write that is

More on the theme of the series, let's see, for the 13 episodes of time, Lucy gets about 4 episodes' worth of time, Nana gets about 3 episodes, Mariko and Kurama gets about 2, Yuuka gets 1-2, Mayu gets 1-2, so yup Lucy gets the most time since she's the main character, but the show has spread its time over all the characters quite well that I don't think you can say the theme is just about Lucy.

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-12-17 at 12:32.
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Old 2004-12-17, 12:48   Link #1083
Icehawk
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Fracking chrixt on a stick here we go again....

Quote:
Why Diclonius are expected to treat humans in kind when they have instinctive desire to kill humans? And sure they are capable of human emotions and can mate with humans, lifeforms under the same family can mate with each other, but that doesn't mean two species under the same family can't become natural enemies of each other. Heck, horses and donkeys can mate and have offsprins, lions and tigers can mate and have offsprings, but they are different species for sure. And tigers don't follow lions' rules, donkeys don't follow horses' rules. Also it's natural for an evolved species to have traits of the species they evolve from.
Even if we assume they are completely different species (which they are not anyways) the simple fact they are fellow intelligent sentients means that they deserve to be treated with the same basic rights that we do. Your animal examples are false analogies since those species are A) Not intelligent and B) They produce sterile offspring and arent even natural enemies anyways. Its a pretty safe bet to assume that if animals were intelligent on our level that they would have laws that would govern their behavior toward eachother since Violence based on race and ideas of racial superiority are simply FUCKING WRONG and counter productive to a society of intelligent beings whether they are human or not.

Quote:
X-Men are not homo sapiens, they are homo superior, they are a different species from humans, that's the official word as far as I know, and if they wants to break away from human society, they can. That's why they are a superior species. For laws and society rules, they are all man-made laws and rules, ie. we humans made them. If you let pigs write laws they'll forbid humans to eat them for sure, if they can write that is
Oh for fucks.... Just because they CAN do that does not mean you SHOULD or ever WOULD do that. Intelligent species are and should be bound by basic laws regardless of who makes them.

Quote:
More on the theme of the series, let's see, for the 13 episodes of time, Lucy gets about 4 episodes' worth of time, Nana gets about 3 episodes, Mariko and Kurama gets about 2, Yuuka gets 1-2, Mayu gets 1-2, so yup Lucy gets the most time since she's the main character, but the show has spread its time over all the characters quite well that I don't think you can say the theme is just about Lucy.
Uhh, Wha? Where did I say the "theme" is just about Lucy now?

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-17 at 13:07.
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Old 2004-12-17, 13:06   Link #1084
dreamless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk
If even if we assume they are completely different species (which they are not anyways) the simple fact they are fellow intelligent sentients means that they deserve to be treated with the same basic rights that we do. Your animal examples are false analogies since those species are A) Not intelligent and B) They produce sterile offspring and arent even natural enemies anyways. Its a pretty safe bet to assume that if animals were intelligent on our level that they would have laws that would govern their behavior toward eachother since Violence based on race and ideas of racial superiority are simply FUCKING WRONG and counter productive to a society of intelligent beings whether they are human or not.
Diclonius have horns and psychic vector hands and generate mutagen virus, based on these facts, it is safe to assume that Diclonius are genetically far more different from humans than homo erectus were, so if homo erectus were considered a totally different species, Diclonius naturally should be considered a totally different species.

Quote:
Intelligent species follows laws even if they are a different race.
huh? why other intelligent species should follow the laws made by humans? Not to mention even among different human groups we already have great differences in our laws and legal systems. Muslims forbid girls to show their faces in public, in a lot of countries homosexuals are illegal, some country forbid capital punishment, etc. etc. Laws are man-made. If certain people from one country don't need to follow the laws in another country, why should an entirely different species follow laws made by humans.

Besides, I don't think any country has written laws like "it is illegal for an intelligent E.T. to kill humans", or "it is illegal for homo superiors to kill humans", so unless they add those lines later, ETs or homo superiors killing humans does not violate any existing human-made law.

Oh, "race" and "species" are totally different concepts. all existing human races are under homo sapien sapien, meaning we are not only under the same species, we are actually all under the same sub-species, despite which race you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk
Uhh, Wha? Where did I say the "theme" is just about Lucy now?
I never said you did. you are not the only guy here.

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-12-17 at 13:21.
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Old 2004-12-17, 13:31   Link #1085
Icehawk
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Diclonius have horns and psychic vector hands and generate mutagen virus, based on these facts, it is safe to assume that Diclonius are genetically far more different from humans than homo erectus were, so if homo erectus were considered a totally different species, Diclonius naturally should be considered a totally different species.
And yet they can breed perfectly fine with humans. This means we ARE genetically very similar.

Quote:
huh? why other intelligent species should follow the laws made by humans? Not to mention even among different human groups we already have great differences in our laws already. Muslims forbid women to show faces in public, in a lot of countries homosexuals are illegal. Laws are man-made. If certain people from one country don't need to follow the laws in another country, why should an entirely different species follow laws made by humans
Regardless, they are BORN from humans and can reproduce with humans, and they are genetically very similar to humans and have the same intelligence, thus they are at the very least bound by basic human rights laws that are universal to everyone regardless of your race, plain and simple, don't like it, tough shit end, of debate. Fuck even if they are separate species it would still be WRONG to classify them under different laws for that very reason. Thats the whole point im trying to get across. Their similarities to us are too great for them to morally and ethically be considered free from our laws.

You are trying to get off on a ridiculous technicality and it just doesnt fly.

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I never said you did. you are not the only guy here.
You should be more clear next time.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-17 at 13:41.
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Old 2004-12-17, 13:55   Link #1086
Guido
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This debate does really has piqued my interest.

First of all, Lucy's character is interesting to analyze just as well as the theme of the series. However, if there's something I will only dislike about her is her cold, silent attitude (And Let Me Clarify A Thing) not because of MORALITY issues but because she wasn't able to overly and fully express her feelings: hatred, sorrow, frustration, sadness.
Dammit! The writers not even allowed her to fully display all her emotions to Kouta. I really wanted to listen or hear Lucy shouting out loud, "I was alone" or "I hate them", but hell no they kept persistently to conceal her true feelings.

I guess that the anime crew did had neither the balls nor the guts to portrayed close or nearly the same way as she's depicted in the manga.

Second.
If I recall correctly, in a long-previous post of mine, I expressed that it is possible and plausible for humans and diclonius to co-exist in the world.
However, it's imminently tough or almost non-feasible because humankind has not evolve it's self-consciousness to judge others for the whole person they are, rather 'we' unfortunately tend to judge mainly by the looks and images of every person and second by their actions.
Then, there's the whole deal about the Diclonus genes that have encrypted on them the command to wipe out humans through instinct.

But dreamless in a previous post of yours, you clearly expressed that Diclonius are not an evolution of mankind rather a mutation due to the 'vector virus'. Evolution is triggered by changes in the environment, the way of living, DNA structure, but not through a virus.
Also you expressed that Dicloniuses way of living to destroy Humans is more the attitude or purpose of being a Bio-weapon. I got the message when you gave the example about the sheep. For the Diclonius to destroy Humans but leaving animals unharmed, that's something more along the line of being a borned bio-weapon!!
I agree with you about the bio-weapon issue.

Also, I can theorize that the bastard, old-man Kakuzawa and his previous ancestors somehow are at fault to deliberately alter the diclonius DNA. Just why that creep was so obsessed for humankind to perish, in later episodes of the anime? Then, in the final episode reveals his true self.

Third.
I have unearthed another interesting hypothesis about the vector virus.
The vector virus not only affects adversely humans but also Diclonius too, both pyschologically and emotionally.

It's possible that the very first generation Diclonius did not have the virus. Possibly, the Kakuzawa family or anybody else viewed the need for sacrificing some of their kind to create the virus and pass it on to the later Diclonius generations.

Fourth.
Kurama mentioned that he and his team were working for the development of the vaccine solution.
But that vaccine to be used to prevent the Diclonius mutation.

If there's ever a vaccine developed or smuggle out from the hands of Kakuzawa, somewhere and some undefined time in the manga, I will prefer that it is used to cure or eradicate the virus out from the Diclonius DNA.

Say whatever you say about "homo superioris" or "homo sapiens" issues, but for myself I view the Diclonius being human if not in the sociological or from the same species sense then for the spiritual and natural sense.
I mean, humans have a soul like all other living creatures, therefore, I imply that Diclonius also possess a soul too.
For me, it's clearly inhuman not to view them not "as humans" but humans (without the 'as')
A vaccine developed to cure Diclonius from the virus that it is messing up their genes at psychopathic level.
Diclonius deserve a chance to be in the world and grow to live for striving goals just as humans.

I just can't get myself to accept that Diclonius are borned to kill humans not because it is RIGHT or WRONG, REASONABLE or INSTINCTIVE, but because it isSad. Morality has nothing to do with these.

They just don't deserve to lead a purpose like that. I simply feel not pity rather compassion for Lucy. She just doesn't deserve to live for the whole purpose of killing humankind. She still hasn't realized that there are also people who had suffered even more abysmally and traumatic childhood experiences than hers to attempt to relate with them. She unluckily just came across and experienced one out of the two sides of both her enemy?/mother race: the inhumane nature.

And I clearly not buying any shit you say about the 'vector' acting or being the soul to the Diclonius because the soul or spirit is the core of our being that gives us sense of individual personality; in essence, the soul tell us "who we are" not "what we do" or "what we are borned to do".

Fifth.
That's something I will also complain a little about the show because whereas it was perfectly packed about scientific, sociological, moral, and psychological issue, I felt it lacked totally or devoid from spiritual and philosophical issues.
If there's ever a continuation to Elfen Lied, I just hope that they include them too.

Sixth.
I just hope that by the end of the manga, Lucy achieves and receives hope.
And why not? Being cure of the virus condition.
I'm fully awared of that being cured of the virus will do her nothing to erase the wretched experiences and memories of her painful childhood she went through.

But at least, she will decide by her free will and reasoning whether to kill or not, and leave at peace those who did not hurt her at all and that will never harm her.

Kill because it is reasonably understandable that someone pissed her off to the edge, not because a psycho persoanality living inside her head cheats on her to do so or because some microscopic bug on her genes commands her unquestionably to do so.

Seventh.
In my opinion, the theme I interpret about the story is hope. Not about oneself making a place to be but searching & finding a place in life.
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Old 2004-12-17, 13:55   Link #1087
dreamless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk
And yet they can breed perfectly fine with humans. This means we ARE genetically very similar.



Regardless, they are BORN from humans and can reproduce with humans, and they are genetically very similar to humans and have the same intelligence, thus they are at the very least bound by basic human rights laws that are universal to everyone regardless of your race, plain and simple, don't like it, tough shit end, of debate. Fuck even if they are separate species it would still be WRONG to classify them under different laws for that very reason. Thats the whole point im trying to get across. Their similarities to us are too great for them to morally and ethically be considered free from our laws.

You are trying to get off on a ridiculous technicality and it just doesnt fly.



You should be more clear next time.
actually they are more intelligent than humans. And remember in the anime it is stated very clearly that with Diclonius, the age of homo sapiens is coming to an end. So that means Diclonius are not homo sapiens, ie. they are not humans. that's fact told in the anime itself. Genetically speaking, they are definitely not similar to humans, they can reproduce with humans but the result is Diclonius, never human, because of their mutagenic genes. Genetically superior mutagenic virus and species is not a new idea, you can refer to The Thing, and Species (the movie).

And our laws surely aren't suitable for Diclonius. laws made by homo sapiens are based on the abilities of homo sapiens. Diclonius have abilities far greater than homo sapiens. For example, we have laws that when we have caught a murderer we must try him in court first and we must protect his rights and things. You surely can't follow these laws with Diclonius, they'll slaughter the entire court with their vectors.

Anyway, since there's no existing law saying a non-human killing a human is illegal, so the act of Lucy killing humans is not illegal in existing written laws, whether it's morally right or wrong is another matter, but the fact remains that it doesn't violate any existing law.

And when it comes to morality, Diclonius is born with instinctive desire to kill humans, so I guess they don't think it's morally wrong to kill humans. We, humans, surely will think it's morally wrong to kill humans, but that's based on our morality, when we humans don't have instinctive desires to kill humans. Our morality does not necessarily apply to Diclonius, a different species with different instinctive desires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guido
But dreamless in a previous post of yours, you clearly expressed that Diclonius are not an evolution of mankind rather a mutation due to the 'vector virus'. Evolution is triggered by changes in the environment, the way of living, DNA structure, but not through a virus.
Also you expressed that Dicloniuses way of living to destroy Humans is more the attitude or purpose of being a Bio-weapon. I got the message when you gave the example about the sheep. For the Diclonius to destroy Humans but leaving animals unharmed, that's something more along the line of being a borned bio-weapon!!
I agree with you about the bio-weapon issue.
well, according to my hypothesis of Diclonius being a bio-weapon against humans, then there's asbolutely no moral or legal issue about Diclonius killing humans. But then MakubeX's later posts suggest that maybe at least Lucy is an evolution, so for now I think I'll go with the evolution hypothesis in this debate. For the "bio-weapon manufactured by aliens or something" hypothesis, then there's no need to debate on this matter all together

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-12-17 at 14:18.
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Old 2004-12-17, 14:30   Link #1088
Icehawk
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actually they are more intelligent than humans.
...... and where is this ever shown?

Quote:
And remember in the anime it is stated very clearly that with Diclonius, the age of homo sapiens is coming to an end. So that means Diclonius are not homo sapiens, ie. they are not humans. that's fact told in the anime itself. Genetically speaking, they are definitely not similar to humans, they can reproduce with humans but the result is Diclonius, never human, because of their mutagenic genes.
If its the result of the virus its not exactly evolution now is it? Look, its simple biology, if you can breed flawlessly and have with fertile offspring with something, you are obviously genetically very similar, thats the way it is. They may be a sperate species, but they are still very close.

Also, morality and instinct are two separate things. You can have the instinct to do something and from a moral and or rational perspective its wrong. The case here being sensless killing of humanity in the name of "instinct". If they were mindless beasts who weren't capable of intelligence and emotion than they could get away with it, but they are not. They are capable of reason and so should be taught and expected to keep their instincts in check if we were to form a stable co-existance.

This would be the most reasonable way to go about things. Humanity could all be replaced with Diclonius WITHOUT all the sensless instinctually driven killing.
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Old 2004-12-17, 15:07   Link #1089
dreamless
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Originally Posted by Icehawk
...... and where is this ever shown?

If its the result of the virus its not exactly evolution now is it? Look, its simple biology, if you can breed flawlessly and have with fertile offspring with something, you are obviously genetically very similar, thats the way it is. They may be a sperate species, but they are still very close.

Also, morality and instinct are two separate things. You can have the instinct to do something and from a moral and or rational perspective its wrong. The case here being sensless killing of humanity in the name of "instinct". If they were mindless beasts who weren't capable of intelligence and emotion than they could get away with it, but they are not. They are capable of reason and so should be taught and expected to keep their instincts in check if we were to form a stable co-existance.

This would be the most reasonable way to go about things. Humanity could all be replaced with Diclonius WITHOUT all the sensless instinctually driven killing.
compare the intelligence of Mariko and young Lucy with normal human kids and you get the idea. It's more explained in the manga about their different brain structures.

well there is the idea of mutagenic virus, and I don't think you can say those aliens in Species is genetically very similar to humans. Diclonius is a genetically superior mutagenic species. if they are just genetically similar to humans, then their offsprings will have a chance to be normal humans. But in Diclonius' case, the offsprings from Diclonius and humans are always Diclonius and never humans, that means there must be some critical difference in their genetic makeups to mutate all human genes into Diclonius genes, and they always pass down the genes responsible for the vectors and mutagenic virus and the horns and the different brain structure. That in itself is quite a different genetic behaviour from human genes.

Yes they should be taught to keep their instincts in check if they are to co-exist with humans, but they have no reason to co-exist with humans. At least for Lucy she has no reason to co-exist with any human, except Kouta. Also morality forced against instincts usually don't work very well.

If you think it's all because of the virus, and Diclonius is not an evolution, then there's no moral issues in Lucy's killing humans. She's turned bio-weapon by the virus, or you could say it's a disease. Then there's no moral issues with the killing, like you don't say some totally mad guys killing people as morally wrong and try to teach them the right morals, you just lock them away and try to treat their mental diseases.

But then anyway since the anime says the age of homo sapiens is coming to an end with Diclonius, so it's safe to say Diclonius are not homo sapiens.

Anyway I'm not arguing about technicialities here, I just think you shouldn't judge what Lucy has done and the theme of the series with too much thoughts about human morality and legal issues.

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-12-17 at 15:36.
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Old 2004-12-17, 15:51   Link #1090
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Holy crap.

Uh... well... who here likes pie?

Damn, I shouldn't have posted anything. : (
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Old 2004-12-17, 18:02   Link #1091
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Wow i love this debate. Just finished the anime about 20 minutes ago and i thoguht i would come give my opinion on the subject. I think constantly argueing the morality of diclonias killing humans is kinda ridiclious. Like others have said it is instinct. I would also go as far as to say that the diclonias are more like a human with a bad physcological disorder. As stated in the anime when they reach the age of 3 they go on a killing spree. Given that lucy and nana didnt seem to do this, when lucy first tasted blood she went into a sort of coma where she was talking to something inside her. Whatever this thing inside her is, it is the single defining factor that causes her to kill the innocent. And i can only guess that they other diclonias have they same sort of disorder. When lucy is lucy she also seems to know things beyond her scope of knowledge like, the world will be mostly diclonias in 5 years. Which would also sever to justify my assumption that there is something within the dicloinas that make them kill. So wait, if that was lucy at the end, then the human race is going to be extinct??
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Old 2004-12-17, 18:44   Link #1092
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My take on the ending, Nyuu was the part of Lucy that was created to escape the harsh reality she was enduring. She created that childlike state to be able to survive after commiting these horrible acts. After she comes to terms with what she has done (by finally explaining her actions to Kouta), I think she would have done away with that shell of a personality. It was only there to protect her mind from going completely insane. Once she was willing to rationalize and openly explain her actions, I think that personality would have died out. Therefore I dont see the reason to bring back Nyuu, her mind has entered an awakened state, it realizes the full potential of the mistakes she has made, but whether or not she is willing to move forward and continue living is up to the viewer to decide.

I dont think you can say all of them start killing after age 3, or that all of them develope this Nyuu type personality. As in real life it depends on the psychological conditions the child has been subjected too. We already know that all of them share the same emotions that humans do, the only difference is they are born with this inherent weapon, and when their minds snap as a child from the abandonment caused by their horns, they use these weapons to lash out in the only way they know how. In Lucy's case, it was the killing of the dog and the seemingly betrayal of her only friend that made her snap, from there on out she awokened this alternate personality that existed inside her. This could be tottally different from Diclonius to Diclonius, as it is in Nana's case. Nana didnt develope this personality disorder because she always had someone to fall back on, her father (as she though).

The only conflict I see here is the return of Nyuu's personality in the manga, I just dont see Nyuu existing anymore, the purpose of Nyuu was to protect Lucy from having to live with what she had done. Now that she has confonted Kouta, which was the only reason she kept on living, that split personality would dissapear, and what would be left would be the tragic Lucy that can never escape the horrors of what she has done.

This last bit is entirly up to the viewer to decide, and this is how I view it. Lucy returns to the Inn as herself, a fully awakened personality, we know Kouta never will forgive her for what she did, but that does not mean he hates her. The death of Lucy offers nothing good to the world, it was the world that abandoned Lucy in the first place, she just choose the wrong way to deal with that abandonment. I see Lucy living without her horns and without the ability to use her powers, and I see her experiencing life for the first time as she was meant to, like a normal human being. She has caused so much hate and suffering for so many people, but she still has a chance to continue to live and bring love and hope into the world. If there is only one reason for Lucy to continue living it would be to bring these feelings of joy to the people around her, and try to learn from the mistakes of the past.

As I said before Lucy dieing is not a solution to any problems, if Lucy was to die it would just be a testament to how horrible the world is, but if she lives on without killing anymore, she can be the proof that everyone is looking for, that Diclonius are not born to kill, they are taught to kill through years of abuse, and then they revert to this subconscious that tells them that it is alright to kill, but there is light at the end of the tunnel, they have compassion and they know deep down that what they have done is evil, and they are willing to atone for it.
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Old 2004-12-17, 18:58   Link #1093
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the problem is, how Lucy manages to live without killing any one of those soldiers? also Nana is already a perfect proof that Diclonius can live without hurting anyone. And I'm not sure how do they atone for it? Or what do you mean by "atone for it"? Should they submit to human laws and let themselves get locked up for years in prison to atone for their crimes? I'm not really sure how to atone for the crime of killing innocent people...

For Nyuu/Lucy personality, at least in terms of manga, it's explained that the cause is the unique brain structure of Diclonius, not some personality created to escape reality.
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Old 2004-12-17, 19:18   Link #1094
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Originally Posted by dreamless
the problem is, how Lucy manages to live without killing any one of those soldiers? also Nana is already a perfect proof that Diclonius can live without hurting anyone. And I'm not sure how do they atone for it? Or what do you mean by "atone for it"? Should they submit to human laws and let themselves get locked up for years in prison to atone for their crimes? I'm not really sure how to atone for the crime of killing innocent people...

For Nyuu/Lucy personality, at least in terms of manga, it's explained that the cause is the unique brain structure of Diclonius, not some personality created to escape reality.
Ok I shouldnt say attone for it, thats impossible, she shouldnt be looking for salvation or serenity within. The only solution I see here is for Lucy to keep on living, to provide love to others around her, and try to make the world a better place, even if only for one person, and that does not necessarily mean Kouta.

My take on it is that Lucy dieing does not solve anything, its a cruel ending that contradicts the theme of the show. If she were to die that would only spread more sadness in the world. I think she MUST live on, in a world where she is loved by the people around her, but at the same time she must never forget what she has done. Her only hope is to open herself up to others, and provide as much love and kindness as she can, not to show remorse for what she has done, but to help the world grow in any way she can. This is the only thing she can do for the victims of her insanity.

I have not read the manga, though I do intend to, but this is my opinion after finishing the anime just yesterday. I still think I need some time for this show to "sink in", its a very powerfull show that grows on me the more I think about it. I want to examine the show from a psychological standpoint though, I watched the show with that in mind from the beginning, and I will not accept a simple explanation like that. The Diclonius show to much human condition to simply write it off as a difference in brain structure.

Last edited by Chronissz; 2004-12-17 at 19:54.
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Old 2004-12-17, 20:28   Link #1095
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In the Elfen Lied world, if one death could make the world a better place, it would be the Director General.
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Old 2004-12-17, 22:07   Link #1096
Reaver4k
Lucy's "Play Thing"
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 29
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I secand that.

I thinks its all his fult!
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Old 2004-12-17, 22:46   Link #1097
Guido
The Reaper Owl
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Monterrey, México
Age: 35
For everyone, I just like to say twenty-six words:

"For either many or most of us, if not all, please support for a continuation whether is reading throughout all of the manga or OVA releases."
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Old 2004-12-17, 22:47   Link #1098
Icehawk
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 34
Quote:
Anyway I'm not arguing about technicialities here, I just think you shouldn't judge what Lucy has done and the theme of the series with too much thoughts about human morality and legal issues.
I have watched the series twice now and I simply cannot feel any other way for Lucy. She did not commit her murders from instinct, she did it because she was angry at the world and thats that is made quite clear. Its physically impossible for me to sit their and just say to myself, "Oh no, Its perfectly OK for all those innocent people to die because its her INSTINCT to kill, oh yeah."

Also as side note while its on my mind, NOTE EVEN all animals are allowed to be just let off on violent instinct either. Dogs just for example are almost always ordered to be put down if they attack out of nowhere at innocent people.

EDIT: In the end, as I said way back earlier, I do not hate Lucy and I do sympathize and feel sorry for the pain she went through while younger, I do not wish her to die. But her selfish and unnecessary killing of Kouta's sister and father, and those other innocent people who had nothing to do with her, is not something I can ever simply ignore or accept as reasonable. She's a sentient intelligent being and as such she cannot be let off on the excuse of "killing instinct" because unlike an animal she has a choice and she knew that blindly killing people was wrong.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2004-12-18 at 03:01.
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Old 2004-12-18, 04:15   Link #1099
dreamless
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronissz
This is the only thing she can do for the victims of her insanity.
Hmmm... that's something she can do for the world, but not for the victims... she can't really do anything for the dead...
Quote:
I have not read the manga, though I do intend to, but this is my opinion after finishing the anime just yesterday. I still think I need some time for this show to "sink in", its a very powerfull show that grows on me the more I think about it. I want to examine the show from a psychological standpoint though, I watched the show with that in mind from the beginning, and I will not accept a simple explanation like that. The Diclonius show to much human condition to simply write it off as a difference in brain structure.
well, since the sedatives injected into Nyuu only works for Nyuu, not for Lucy, I think even the anime suggests the split personality is something biological, not psychological. (if it's some psychological split personality stuff, then there's no reason why the sedative puts Nyuu into sleep but awakes Lucy...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk
In the end, as I said way back earlier, I do not hate Lucy and I do sympathize and feel sorry for the pain she went through while younger, I do not wish her to die. But her selfish and unnecessary killing of Kouta's sister and father, and those other innocent people who had nothing to do with her, is not something I can ever simply ignore or accept as reasonable. She's a sentient intelligent being and as such she cannot be let off on the excuse of "killing instinct" because unlike an animal she has a choice and she knew that blindly killing people was wrong.
I'm not saying you should ignore all the atrocities Lucy has done, or it's perfectly okay for those innocent people getting slaughtered, or it's reasonable in human perspective. I'm pretty sure the vector Lucy personality doesn't think blindly killing people is wrong, actually the vecotr Lucy personality obviously thinks that killing every human in the world is the right thing to do, she sees humans as nothing more than lowly pests. So it's perfectly reasonable and morally right in the eyes of the vector Lucy personality to kill innocent people. Of course in human terms, we'd call the vector Lucy personality something "insane", some psychopath, but that's something integral to the Diclonius species due to their different brain structure.
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Old 2004-12-18, 10:32   Link #1100
slayer
essense
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Toronto/Waterloo
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she fully heartly wanted to kill everyone... that was the point of her form.. it's said so by the director and herself at the end.
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