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Old 2012-01-17, 14:19   Link #2021
Kokukirin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
How is this ever not the case in a two party system? The outcome is binary after all.

And to get ahead of the obvious troll response: yes, I know there are more parties and independants, but really their only role in a presidential election is to steal votes from the two big parties.
You see, Obama won 08 election because his platform appealed to more Americans than McCain's. He looked like a candidate who could steer US from the wrong course. He excited the younger and minority voters, both historically have low turnouts, to come out to support him. They didn't come out because they saw McCain as a horrible choice (though Sarah Palin would be a disaster).

Now we have Obama who looks weak. He no longer seems to stand for anything. The Congress during his term is the worst in living history, even though it's not entirely his fault. Personally I'd like to see a Democrat challenge him, but that is not going to happen.

On the other side Republicans candidates are almost all unelectable. Huntsman has dropped. Ron Paul is too radical to win. Romney never has more than 25% support but his nomination looks inevitable, mostly because he is the only one that can seriously challenge Obama. So unseating Obama becomes the primary objective, and whoever has the best chance to do so gets nominated. Romney's views (which changes with every passing season) are not important.
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Old 2012-01-17, 14:53   Link #2022
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
you can't really blame foreigners form missing the joke when Colbert is out polling Huntsman in SC and when you look at the lineup for the Republicans.
Foreigners??? Hell, no - I'm talking about US Citizens. Actually, even a few distant relatives who told me "I should watch him because he has some really important good ideas" O.o They utterly thought he was serious and who am I to interfere? (muhahahahahahaha).
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Old 2012-01-17, 15:20   Link #2023
Xagzan
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Foreigners??? Hell, no - I'm talking about US Citizens. Actually, even a few distant relatives who told me "I should watch him because he has some really important good ideas" O.o They utterly thought he was serious and who am I to interfere? (muhahahahahahaha).
My memory's a little fuzzy about the first episode of Colbert, but I'm pretty sure any confusion I had as to what he was actually doing was gone by the end of it
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Old 2012-01-17, 15:45   Link #2024
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
My memory's a little fuzzy about the first episode of Colbert, but I'm pretty sure any confusion I had as to what he was actually doing was gone by the end of it
That's because you probably have a full deck The number of people considered "normal" who actually can't critically analyze/process is large enough I try not to brood on it too often because otherwise I'd avoid driving altogether.
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Old 2012-01-17, 16:42   Link #2025
Vena
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
That's because you probably have a full deck The number of people considered "normal" who actually can't critically analyze/process is large enough I try not to brood on it too often because otherwise I'd avoid driving altogether.
Let's be fair now, America's school system hasn't encouraged critical thought since the 90s. These people can't help if they were raised on a system that taught science (critical thought) with the same or lesser conviction with which it teaches children to be pious, religious, and subservient (follow the letter, do not question). From TAing I've gotten a first hand experience at just how... complacent/lifeless today's kids are. They don't ever speak their mind. They just listen, swallow what you spat at them without question of whether its right or wrong, and continue their days in robot-mode.

Its not like I was a "kid" all that long ago, I'm only 22 but when I was in school we asked questions, we interacted with our teacher, we went outside and played with a ball and stick. No one does these thing anymore.
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Old 2012-01-17, 17:28   Link #2026
ganbaru
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FACT CHECK: Distortions in GOP debate
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...01-17-17-16-21

Rick Perry affirm than Turkey is run by islamist terrorist .
( Sorry, text in french) http://nouvelles.sympatico.ca/monde/...nkara/dfaf552d
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Old 2012-01-17, 17:35   Link #2027
Ithekro
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In looking up something else I came across something about Ron Paul.

Would you like to be a Privateer? Would it be within the Executive Powers to get Congress to start issuing Letters of Marque and Reprisal? Well Ron Paul did want to start using Privateers against Terrorists instead of using the military. As a Privateer can target individual terrorists without forcing a war between nations using military force (at least in theory).
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Old 2012-01-17, 17:39   Link #2028
Xagzan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
Let's be fair now, America's school system hasn't encouraged critical thought since the 90s.
Well now, the people we're talking about were hardly born in the 90s or after.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
That's because you probably have a full deck The number of people considered "normal" who actually can't critically analyze/process is large enough I try not to brood on it too often because otherwise I'd avoid driving altogether.
Speaking of Colbert, I'm curious how long it took those same conservatives to realize that this, in fact, was nothing short of satiric criticism of Bush.

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Old 2012-01-17, 18:03   Link #2029
Kokukirin
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
In looking up something else I came across something about Ron Paul.

Would you like to be a Privateer? Would it be within the Executive Powers to get Congress to start issuing Letters of Marque and Reprisal? Well Ron Paul did want to start using Privateers against Terrorists instead of using the military. As a Privateer can target individual terrorists without forcing a war between nations using military force (at least in theory).
Privateer has not existed for over a century. Today we have mercenaries like Academi/Blackwater who do part of the work for US military. But in any case subcontracting out the dirty work does not free the government of the responsibilities, in theory or not.
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Old 2012-01-17, 18:26   Link #2030
Ithekro
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True (mostly..there is debate over the Privateer status of a pair of sub hunting blimps in the Second World War). However this has come up in recent times:

Quote:
-Wikipedia on Letter of Marque
The issue of marque and reprisal was raised before Congress after the September 11 attacks and again on July 21, 2007, by Congressman Ron Paul. The attacks were defined as acts of "air piracy" and the Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001 was introduced, which would have granted the president the authority to use letters of marque and reprisal against the specific terrorists, instead of warring against a foreign state. The terrorists were compared to pirates in that they are difficult to fight by traditional military means. Congressman Paul on April 15, 2009, also advocated the use of letters of marque to address the issue of Somali pirates operating in the Gulf of Aden. However, the bills Congressman Paul introduced were not enacted into law.
I know that my father use to want to go after pirates and the like as privateers. Something like a group of old vets using Vietnam or older era equipment to fight for pay. I think he wanted a old converted LST and a group of PBRs and Swift boats and the like. Lot of Brown Water Navy and coastal waters gear.
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Old 2012-01-17, 18:36   Link #2031
Kokukirin
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That only makes it more confusing. Hunting down Somali pirates does not lead to a war against foreign state. And being the strongest navy in the world by far, the US navy is in best position to patrol the waters. There just isn't a need to subcontract out the work to privateers.
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Old 2012-01-17, 18:38   Link #2032
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Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
That only makes it more confusing. Hunting down Somali pirates does not lead to a war against foreign state. And being the strongest navy in the world by far, the US navy is in best position to patrol the waters. There just isn't a need to subcontract out the work to privateers.
i think the difference is that privateers can just sink the pirate ships with the pirates while the US Navy would have to arrest and take them back to the US for a trial.
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Old 2012-01-17, 18:50   Link #2033
Ithekro
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The US Navy might be the most powerful, but it does not have the ship types for close in work against small fast boats. You can't effectively use attack submarines against those kinds of pirates. An Aircraft Carrier is a very large asset to use against small targets. Frigates, Destroyers, and Cruisers of today are not designed for gun fights in coastal waters, but to engage Soviet vessels at sea with missiles, or prevent missiles or submarines from hitting the carriers. You typically don't use a million dollar tomahawk cruise missile against a pirate speed boat. There are no battleships in service, and they too are too large of an asset to place against small targets. The LPD and Marines assets might be viable, but those are more for invading land than engaging pirates.

The idea of using Privateers is that the privateer would already have a small boat or ship that could be fitted with some guns and used either to patrol the coastal areas, hunt down pirate bases in territorial waters that the US Navy isn't suppose to enter. Or act as decoys to bring the pirates to them to be captured or killed. This would save funds and the Navy would not need to have new ships and boats built to deal with the situation, nor woud they need to expand naval spending to get more sailors.
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Old 2012-01-17, 18:59   Link #2034
Kokukirin
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The US Navy might be the most powerful, but it does not have the ship types for close in work against small fast boats. You can't effectively use attack submarines against those kinds of pirates. An Aircraft Carrier is a very large asset to use against small targets. Frigates, Destroyers, and Cruisers of today are not designed for gun fights in coastal waters, but to engage Soviet vessels at sea with missiles, or prevent missiles or submarines from hitting the carriers. You typically don't use a million dollar tomahawk cruise missile against a pirate speed boat. There are no battleships in service, and they too are too large of an asset to place against small targets. The LPD and Marines assets might be viable, but those are more for invading land than engaging pirates.

The idea of using Privateers is that the privateer would already have a small boat or ship that could be fitted with some guns and used either to patrol the coastal areas, hunt down pirate bases in territorial waters that the US Navy isn't suppose to enter. Or act as decoys to bring the pirates to them to be captured or killed. This would save funds and the Navy would not need to have new ships and boats built to deal with the situation, nor woud they need to expand naval spending to get more sailors.
US navy is not short of attack helicopters and small gunboats. The larger ships carry them around to patrol the seas.
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Old 2012-01-17, 18:59   Link #2035
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Definitely a oversight on the Navy. By Concentrating on Big Ships with big weapons they left themselves vulnerable to smaller faster ships. Does the Coast Guard has any small ships?
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Old 2012-01-17, 19:13   Link #2036
Kokukirin
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Definitely a oversight on the Navy. By Concentrating on Big Ships with big weapons they left themselves vulnerable to smaller faster ships. Does the Coast Guard has any small ships?
US navy has ships for anti-piracy.
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Old 2012-01-17, 19:14   Link #2037
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Foreigners??? Hell, no - I'm talking about US Citizens. Actually, even a few distant relatives who told me "I should watch him because he has some really important good ideas" O.o They utterly thought he was serious and who am I to interfere? (muhahahahahahaha).
I have to confess, that when I first saw Colbert whilke one holiday in the US, I wasn't entirely sure if he was a satire or not.

He's very believable, particularly if you don't know any background on him. He's been getting a bit more wacky of late, so it's a bit easier to tell. Still, he plays the part of a complete right wing jingoistic idiot extremely well. If he just toned it down a little, and removed the openly comedic segments, it would be impossible to tell that it's satire.
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Old 2012-01-17, 19:35   Link #2038
Ithekro
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2009 is rather recent. and I'm under the impression Ron Paul wants to pull military forces out of those areas, thus the concept of Privateers. Judging from his stance on the military anyway.

Though again, those ships are not designed for that kind of work, and those are rather expensive assets. Hense the development of the Littoral Combat Ship. This is an expense that I assume Ron Paul would rather we didn't have. However a smaller number of these smaller ships should be able to do the job of the 20 or so odd larger warships currently involved in anti-piracy warfare.
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Old 2012-01-17, 19:44   Link #2039
DonQuigleone
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I think the idea should be to keep 1 or 2 large ships in a central location, that can quickly come in if necessary, but do the majority of the patrolling with coast guard sized boats, with a decent level of small arms ordinance.

Somalia is the new Barbary coast. The americans defeated Pirates once before...
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Old 2012-01-17, 19:58   Link #2040
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Somalia is the new Barbary coast. The americans defeated Pirates once before...
They sinked pirate ships before.
Nw, it's rather badly seen to sink ship on sight, especialy if they could be just some fishing boats.
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