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Old 2012-01-18, 15:23   Link #27121
Renall
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
The only times that we didn't have a Reader, as far as I can tell, are in Bern's puzzle and in Our Confessions. Shouldn't it be obvious that every other game board we see has a Reader?
No. Because a Reader isn't the same as a Game Master, and the person being read to isn't the same as a Player.

Lamba is the Game Master and Bern by her proxy Erika is the Player (well, Erika is playing and theoretically Bern is helping, when she feels like it, which she usually does not). Battler walks in on them playing a game and Lambda goes back and shows him what happened. It's not clear what this relationship is. However, if Lambda showed him something that flatly contradicted what Bern and Erika experienced when they played the game with Lambda as Game Master, wouldn't somebody notice this? Bern and Erika are arrogant, but they're not stupid.
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2012-01-18, 15:26   Link #27122
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That doesn't make any sense. There's no reason for her to do that, and the mere occurrence of that happening should have been a giant red flag to Bernkastel (and possibly to Erika). It would not have been of any benefit to Battler, and more critically, to her. It would also suggest that it wasn't narrated like that to begin with. Who did narrate it then? How was it different? If we never even get a hint of that, there's nothing remotely fair or useful about writing it that way.
By the way, when did the concept of the Reader come in? Wasn't that started in EP6? Before Featherine appeared, there was no reader even mentioned or what not...

In any case, I don't understand what you guys are arguing about. I think everyone agrees that EP5 is rather unfair and cheats. The only thing some people seem to be saying is that that was the way it was intended to be, as an illustration of a game master gone wrong. Or at least, I'm saying it, but Ronove's line about how this game lacks love and the absolutely lost expression he had on his face (and Virgilia's) sounded to me like the game was being made into a mockery and a travesty.

All you can really say is that on the Ryukishi level, the example of cheating served to hide the Shkannon situation on us for one more episode when he revealed it in EP6. If you really want to say this is, "Insiduous" then go ahead, it's your opinion, but I still don't get what you're arguing against. Or are you trying to say he DIDN'T cheat?
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Old 2012-01-18, 15:38   Link #27123
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
By the way, when did the concept of the Reader come in? Wasn't that started in EP6? Before Featherine appeared, there was no reader even mentioned or what not...
That's correct. The concept of a Reader is introduced by Featherine to Ange when she asks Ange to read her manuscript. It's mentioned in one form or another in ep7 (Clair) and ep8 (the aforementioned exchange about Bern's game).

Note that when Featherine and Bern discuss things at the end of ep7, the concept of what Bern is doing is somewhat confused. There is game board symbolism, yet it doesn't appear in ep7 that Bern is actually operating a game... on the other hand, she might not be Reading either, since Will is there actively participating at times. So really, who knows.
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2012-01-18, 15:43   Link #27124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
What we saw is Lambda Reading the scene to us from a non-detective perspective. Thus, any amount of illusions could have been added.
That doesn't make any sense. There's no reason for her to do that, and the mere occurrence of that happening should have been a giant red flag to Bernkastel (and possibly to Erika). It would not have been of any benefit to Battler, and more critically, to her. It would also suggest that it wasn't narrated like that to begin with. Who did narrate it then? How was it different? If we never even get a hint of that, there's nothing remotely fair or useful about writing it that way.

There's also no evidence for your interpretation. How do you know she didn't just hit the rewind button on the game board? Oh, because there's no evidence the game board has a rewind button? Exactly.
There is evidence... in EP1-4 we could only read the thoughts of Battler, the player, the detective in these games.
And what about EP5? Did we read the thoughts of Erika, the detective? Or the thoughts of Bernkastel, the player (aside from the "you will scream in pain Lambda, ahaha.wav")?

No we didn't.

Instead we got to read the thoughts of (Piece-)Battler once again. Erika didn't appear as Meta till a later stage of the review/flashback, so she at least wasn't present at the review of the parlor scene. We have No idea how they reacted when it was shown the first time and also whether Meta-Erika was present or not.

But how about this: "(Piece-)Erika could "re-investigate" the parlor scene anytime, if she wanted to, because of her Photographic memory. However her photographic memory does not "think for her". If she doesn't even think about ShKanon, then she, of course, cannot confirm that. So she would realize the mistake of that scene in the first moment, where she seriously considers ShKanon." That never happened though.

But that probably ends with EP5 so she cannot start the investigation again in EP6 (for Battler's closed room etc.) because her piece version of that world already ceased to exist and she can only rely on the information she gathered at that time. But to specify this further we would have to know more about the mechanics between Piece and Player.
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Old 2012-01-18, 15:46   Link #27125
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
That's exactly what I was thinking. It's kind of ironic, I thought at first, that Ryukishi would put Battler through something similar to Yasu, if indeed Yasu had the same sort of psychological problems. Albeit a change in identity, vs. a loss of identity. Then I started thinking, what if this wasn't just irony, but an actual hint? One of the last hints at the very end of Umineko...

By the way, can you clarify on what you mean by the logic error being a parallel? Like Battler's mind/self being trapped away and Battler's outer self being a non-entity yet another representation of this same theme?
Yeah, pretty much that. Battler's "self" is trapped away, and nobody can find a way to save him. The Battler of 1986 is trapped away somewhere in Tohya's mind, and trying to retrieve him causes massive problems (because Tohya is seeing himself as the White side of the chessboard instead of the chessboard itself, as you said). There is also the fact that, at the end of EP8, Beatrice supposedly reached Battler, which perhaps means that Tohya finally was able to see himself as the chessboard.

Not only that, but the fact that it was Beatrice who reached him in both instances, seems like it could imply that Ikuko is Yasu. But I know that this doesn't necessarily confirm the Ikuko=Yasu theory in any way, shape, or form. I'm just saying.

The strange thing is that it's implied that BATTLER tried to put himself in Yasu's shoes on purpose. After all, there was some line like this: (this is just how I remember it, not the exact words)
"I know how you suffered, waiting for me all that time. So now, I'll try waiting for you."

And the biggest evidence that he intended it is that he should have been able to solve this logic error easily. After all, by that point, he DEFINITELY knew about the "ShKannon" thing. And he's not an idiot, so he should have been able to understand that only the doors were checked for duct tape.

...Does this mean that he intended to get stuck in the logic error or with a brain injury? I have no idea. As far as the brain injury in particular goes, I kind of doubt it.

Oh, right. There's yet another parallel with that logic error. Remember, Kinzo shut himself away in his study, trying to revive Beatrice.

Honestly, both Battler and Yasu get compared to Kinzo all the time. It's like they're both miniature Kinzos.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
No. Because a Reader isn't the same as a Game Master, and the person being read to isn't the same as a Player.

Lamba is the Game Master and Bern by her proxy Erika is the Player (well, Erika is playing and theoretically Bern is helping, when she feels like it, which she usually does not). Battler walks in on them playing a game and Lambda goes back and shows him what happened. It's not clear what this relationship is. However, if Lambda showed him something that flatly contradicted what Bern and Erika experienced when they played the game with Lambda as Game Master, wouldn't somebody notice this? Bern and Erika are arrogant, but they're not stupid.
I know that it's not the same. The Game Master is the one who wrote the story. The Reader is the one who embellishes it, providing the Fantasy side. So yes, they're different.

However, no GM would do something as stupid as putting an elephant next to the detective's Piece when the detective clearly doesn't see an elephant there, for example. So that's why, given that the detective's Piece was present in the parlor, it would make no sense for Lambda to put an elephant there. But she certainly didn't do anything that ridiculous. All she did was say that "both Shannon and Kanon are there, on opposite sides of Erika" which Erika, in one way or another, was apparently unable to disprove. Either her focus on Natsuhi allowed a changing!Yasu trick to be used, or Kanon had his own body.
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Old 2012-01-18, 15:56   Link #27126
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That's correct. The concept of a Reader is introduced by Featherine to Ange when she asks Ange to read her manuscript. It's mentioned in one form or another in ep7 (Clair) and ep8 (the aforementioned exchange about Bern's game).

Note that when Featherine and Bern discuss things at the end of ep7, the concept of what Bern is doing is somewhat confused. There is game board symbolism, yet it doesn't appear in ep7 that Bern is actually operating a game... on the other hand, she might not be Reading either, since Will is there actively participating at times. So really, who knows.
I get that same feeling too. The concept of the reader as a metaphor is somehow tied to the idea of observation, so I thought it had something to do with reading implications and opinions into plain vanilla facts. But the concept doesn't seem to have really hit maturity.

If we use the lack of a reader in EP8 as an example, I was thinking that Bern's game ended up turning into a plain old logic puzzle, with even less literary development or value than some very plainly written detective novels. *cough* 8) So maybe the Reader metaphor on the meta-level implies some kind of care into crafting a story from a puzzle?

This doesn't fit in with the idea that in EP6, Featherine was using Ange as a reader to evaluate her manuscript as you said, nor EP7's reading by Bern.

To put it into terms at the Author level, EP6's Reader appears more as an Editor, whereas EP8's lack of a Reader appears more as an example of lack of writing to begin with. I don't have a clue what EP7's Reader, if there were any, did at all. (Maybe that one was Eva-B, rather than Bern.)
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Old 2012-01-18, 16:10   Link #27127
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The golden butterflies were after the end of the game: Midnight of the Second Day.

The instance where he asked Maria to present Beatrice and she appeared behind him was in the Tea-Party of the First episode, which was a Meta-World event.

Beatrice in EP4 could have been someone in a costume, and in fact probably was, since we know SOMEONE is pretending to be here.

Battler's perspective is objective and reliable as a Detective. This is not refutable.
Was it ever stated in red that Battler's perspective is purely objective and perfectly reliable until Oct. 5 1986 at midnight in EP1-4?

Spoiler for EP5:


You could certainly say that that's something totally different, though, and that while Piece!Battler doesn't have that privilege, he's still a detective, and the Player's Piece, which makes his perspective perfectly objective.

^Which is what I currently believe.
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Old 2012-01-18, 16:11   Link #27128
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
The strange thing is that it's implied that BATTLER tried to put himself in Yasu's shoes on purpose. After all, there was some line like this: (this is just how I remember it, not the exact words)
"I know how you suffered, waiting for me all that time. So now, I'll try waiting for you."

And the biggest evidence that he intended it is that he should have been able to solve this logic error easily. After all, by that point, he DEFINITELY knew about the "ShKannon" thing. And he's not an idiot, so he should have been able to understand that only the doors were checked for duct tape.

...Does this mean that he intended to get stuck in the logic error or with a brain injury? I have no idea. As far as the brain injury in particular goes, I kind of doubt it.
This definitely sounds like Ryukishi was intending for Tooya to be working through the same problem of his and Yasu's all along.

Wait a second... this makes sense now. The whole Genius Battler Theory implied that he put himself into a precarious situation so that Moetrice could 'evolve' and regain her previous (Trollish) nature. And that turning point was when she figured out Shkannon for herself, as Battler did already. He purposely didn't tell her and bet it all on a miracle, another common theme in the story.

Well, this change in Moetrice mirrors the exact same situation Yasu went through, didn't it? Yasu discovered that she was disabled and became fully aware; so did Moetrice. The difference being this time Moetrice had Battler by her side and Yasu did not. (And that may have made all the difference between feeling loved and feeling abandoned.)

I'm going to put that post into my signature, it seems to be providing a lot of answers and insights on Yasu's behavior... if someone can think of a catchy name for the theory, please. 8)

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
Honestly, both Battler and Yasu get compared to Kinzo all the time. It's like they're both miniature Kinzos.
It still disturbs me when I see Moetrice call Battler "Father" when I realize this is supposed to be Beatrice-2 and Kinzo's parallel. Only with less raping. 8) Still incest though, if you think about it....
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Old 2012-01-18, 16:11   Link #27129
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Quote:
I know that it's not the same. The Game Master is the one who wrote the story. The Reader is the one who embellishes it, providing the Fantasy side. So yes, they're different.
ANGE doesn't do this in EP6, though, Battler does. Providing a Fantasy side is the Gamemaster's job. You're wrong.

Quote:

To put it into terms at the Author level, EP6's Reader appears more as an Editor, whereas EP8's lack of a Reader appears more as an example of lack of writing to begin with. I don't have a clue what EP7's Reader, if there were any, did at all. (Maybe that one was Eva-B, rather than Bern.)
EP7's Reader was Clair, who quite literally read aloud a story without giving any personal judgements.
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Old 2012-01-18, 16:17   Link #27130
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
There is evidence... in EP1-4 we could only read the thoughts of Battler, the player, the detective in these games.
And what about EP5? Did we read the thoughts of Erika, the detective? Or the thoughts of Bernkastel, the player (aside from the "you will scream in pain Lambda, ahaha.wav")?

No we didn't.
But she had them. Just because we don't know what they are, we know what she ought to have seen and what she would think if what was depicted was not what she was supposed to see.
Quote:
Instead we got to read the thoughts of (Piece-)Battler once again. Erika didn't appear as Meta till a later stage of the review/flashback, so she at least wasn't present at the review of the parlor scene. We have No idea how they reacted when it was shown the first time and also whether Meta-Erika was present or not.
If Meta-Erika didn't exist at the time, then Bern was the one playing. Again, if Erika was her proxy in some fashion, that discrepancy (if one existed) should have turned up.
Quote:
But how about this: "(Piece-)Erika could "re-investigate" the parlor scene anytime, if she wanted to, because of her Photographic memory. However her photographic memory does not "think for her". If she doesn't even think about ShKanon, then she, of course, cannot confirm that. So she would realize the mistake of that scene in the first moment, where she seriously considers ShKanon." That never happened though.
My problem with this is that the solution is "Erika is an idiot." I can more readily accept her falling for a puzzle that requires Shkanon if she doesn't have any previous evidence that they're the same. But in ep5, either she should have gotten that information, or she was terribly, terribly misled. In either case, she's been cheated.
Quote:
But that probably ends with EP5 so she cannot start the investigation again in EP6 (for Battler's closed room etc.) because her piece version of that world already ceased to exist and she can only rely on the information she gathered at that time. But to specify this further we would have to know more about the mechanics between Piece and Player.
She states she has a photographic memory. Assuming Meta-Erika has Piece-Erika-5's memories (and we don't know she does, but if she doesn't she should be asking some questions of herself), she remembers all details. She can't go back and check them, but she would remember anything that doesn't fit if she's smart enough to do so.
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2012-01-18, 16:30   Link #27131
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
ANGE doesn't do this in EP6, though, Battler does. Providing a Fantasy side is the Gamemaster's job.
EP7's Reader was Clair, who quite literally read aloud a story without giving any personal judgements.
That's right! And you said that before, about Clair. It's so easy to conflate Reader with Game Master it seems...

So, two examples of where Readers are supposed to change facts into literature, and one where the Reader checked up on already written prose.
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Old 2012-01-18, 16:37   Link #27132
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Concerning all the talk above about how Erika didn't notice the thing about Shannon and Kanon during her stay in Rokenjima...I read a lot of it, but I'm too lazy to quote all points I want to comment on, though I'll say, people are just overthinking into this with all the talks about Meta-Erika, Piece-Erika and so on....Clearly, it was just avoided by the author because it would be too much of a giveaway if Erika started getting into the innermost depths of the truth just from the fifth game. To justify this, in the fifth game she was mostly concerned about framing Natsuhi, so I guess actually solving anything wasn't in her priorities.
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Old 2012-01-18, 16:40   Link #27133
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This definitely sounds like Ryukishi was intending for Tooya to be working through the same problem of his and Yasu's all along.

Wait a second... this makes sense now. The whole Genius Battler Theory implied that he put himself into a precarious situation so that Moetrice could 'evolve' and regain her previous (Trollish) nature. And that turning point was when she figured out Shkannon for herself, as Battler did already. He purposely didn't tell her and bet it all on a miracle, another common theme in the story.

Well, this change in Moetrice mirrors the exact same situation Yasu went through, didn't it? Yasu discovered that she was disabled and became fully aware; so did Moetrice. The difference being this time Moetrice had Battler by her side and Yasu did not. (And that may have made all the difference between feeling loved and feeling abandoned.)

I'm going to put that post into my signature, it seems to be providing a lot of answers and insights on Yasu's behavior... if someone can think of a catchy name for the theory, please. 8)
Yeah, I just remembered earlier today when talking to Captain Bluebeard. That particular parallel with Kinzo trying to revive Beatrice I by making Beatrice II "remember" who she was. And how Yasu seemed like she might have been doing something similar with Battler when she was trying to make him remember the promise.

At this point... I kind of have to agree with the "genius Battler" theory. Because, didn't Featherine herself say it? That Chick!Beato is like a blank slate. She's what Beatrice originally was. But if she were to experience the same kind of life, she would "revive."

So, Chick!Beato is there, trying her very best to get him out of that logic error. She wants desperately to be reunited with him, to have her future with him, and to be of use to him.

...Wait, that sounds familiar?

And I'm absolutely certain that BATTLER said something to this effect in EP6 to Chick!Beato when she asked him a question (I don't remember what the question was though):
"I won't tell you. Because the old you would have known it, and I'm hoping you can remember it on your own. So let me believe for just a little longer..."

Quote:
It still disturbs me when I see Moetrice call Battler "Father" when I realize this is supposed to be Beatrice-2 and Kinzo's parallel. Only with less raping. 8) Still incest though, if you think about it....
If they're cousins, it's not exactly incest. Or at least, it's not nearly as bad.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
ANGE doesn't do this in EP6, though, Battler does. Providing a Fantasy side is the Gamemaster's job. You're wrong.
Yeah, that's one of the things that confuses me. But even so, the part about Readers being able to distort the tale in EP8 sure seems similar to things like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler in EP5
In other words, things like magic mustn't appear.
When they do appear, I shouldn't suspect that the mystery element is breaking down... But I should instead question why it was shown and suspect the witnesses and observers.
[...]
Also, at the end of the 1st game,
it was revealed that this tale was passed on to people in the future by that message bottle.
...Someone had written about this crime...this tale.
In other words, ......this tale is all part of a world which includes the personal opinions of an observer, namely, the person who wrote that message in a bottle.
In other words, the observer isn't God.
It's a human.
Therefore, there's no guarantee that this description is truly impartial.
By the end of the 1st game, it had already been made clear that we've broken the constant premise of the mystery genre: that the story itself must be seen through the eyes of God.
For that reason, it's possible to doubt even the observer, as well as the witnesses.
If I could've doubted this much, ...then no matter how many seemingly unsolvable displays of magic appeared, I wouldn't have had to blindly accept them and give up...
I just connected the two ideas mentally, and came to the conclusion that the one who writes the Fantasy side is called the Reader. It sure does seem quite similar, after all, apart from the instance of Ange.
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Old 2012-01-18, 16:50   Link #27134
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Spoiler for EP5:


Checkmate.
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Old 2012-01-18, 16:54   Link #27135
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That's right! And you said that before, about Clair. It's so easy to conflate Reader with Game Master it seems...
Not really. It's extremely easy to keep them apart because no known Reader has ever been a Gamemaster EVER.

Quote:
I just connected the two ideas mentally, and came to the conclusion that the one who writes the Fantasy side is called the Reader. It sure does seem quite similar, after all, apart from the instance of Ange.
How? At no point has the Reader ever created a Fantasy that wasn't already present in the story.

On top of that, Readers as a concept didn't even exist in EP5. What Battler is saying here is that since there are multiple perspectives in the story, and that only one of those perspectives is reliable, we have a narrative that contradicts objective observation, something present in most all other mystery stories regardless of any such "reader".
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Old 2012-01-18, 17:02   Link #27136
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
At this point... I kind of have to agree with the "genius Battler" theory. Because, didn't Featherine herself say it? That Chick!Beato is like a blank slate. She's what Beatrice originally was. But if she were to experience the same kind of life, she would "revive."

So, Chick!Beato is there, trying her very best to get him out of that logic error. She wants desperately to be reunited with him, to have her future with him, and to be of use to him.

...Wait, that sounds familiar?

And I'm absolutely certain that BATTLER said something to this effect in EP6 to Chick!Beato when she asked him a question (I don't remember what the question was though):
"I won't tell you. Because the old you would have known it, and I'm hoping you can remember it on your own. So let me believe for just a little longer..."
Ok, so not only can we see the pattern, but I think we can now see exactly *what* the thing was that changed the innocent Beatrice we saw in early EP7 to the angry one in EP1-2. I mean beyond just that Battler wasn't there for her.

I'm tempted to think this is what he meant by Without Love It Cannot Be Seen. If you don't gain an understanding of Yasu, you'd just conclude that she's crazy or psycho and nothing would make sense. But if you understood her inability to express her rage except only through Beatrice, because she has this particular problem, then it makes sense. Not that her actions are right, but that you understand the mentality of screaming something like, "Stop it or else I'll shoot!"

That may just be me being conceited though, I'm not 100% sure on that Love phrase. 8)


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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
If they're cousins, it's not exactly incest. Or at least, it's not nearly as bad.
She is his Aunt *and* Cousin, as they sometimes say in the stereotypical Deep South. Happy Fun Cyclic Family Tree time here... 8)
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Old 2012-01-18, 17:06   Link #27137
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There is still the thing with EP6's "BATTLER could have said exactly who was present in the cousin's room, but Erika wanted him to say "everyone else" ".

And we all know that he couldn't. So it is likely that ANGE was the "reader" for this scene.

Well although that is no guarantee of course. It is still possible that it is "part of the story".

But i think in the earlier EPs the narrator of the META scenes was never lying or mistaken. Correct me if i am wrong.
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Old 2012-01-18, 17:09   Link #27138
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
It still disturbs me when I see Moetrice call Battler "Father" when I realize this is supposed to be Beatrice-2 and Kinzo's parallel. Only with less raping. 8) Still incest though, if you think about it....
And yet its pretty clear that Battler didn't see her as the previous Beatrice. At least, not during her "birth" and infancy. I dont know how to reconcile this with what Kinzo and Will said during their scenes together.
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Old 2012-01-18, 17:24   Link #27139
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Nothing Battler observes is a delusion. His viewpoint in EP1-4 is 100% reliable until the end of each game: Midnight of the second day. As the Detective, he cannot witness illusions and delusions, and everything he experiences is trustworthy.
Not entirely true. His viewpoint is only reliable, if he has "enough anti-magic-toxin", or better said an "anti-fantasy viewpoint".

As prove: Battler saw Kinzo at the end of EP2. Kinzo is dead at the starting time of all games.



Ok... if i have to answer it myself i have 2 theories about this:

1. He was drunk and hallucinating.

2. He died by alcohol-poisoning and everything he saw at the end was META.



But both somehow seem strange...
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Old 2012-01-18, 17:53   Link #27140
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You're forgetting that that scene took place after the end of the game. At that point, Magic and Illusions consumes the island.
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