AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-01-18, 18:07   Link #27141
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
@Kylon:

Your theory reminded me of something in another novel I read recently.

Spoiler for Kokoro Connect vol. 1:

If you start from the premise that Yasu had this kind of problem, and then she received the additional shock to her perceived identity from Genji etc.'s revelations, then I think a similar sort of breakdown and seeking for someone to tell her who she's supposed to be is not out of the question.

That said, I don't really feel comfortable ascribing mental health problems to Yasu to explain the murders because I don't think she planned to commit any in the first place.

@Everyone else:

Here are the things I think we learned about Readers.
- Reading includes providing narration and filling in missing information, such as the contents of cat boxes. (EP8)
- Game Masters normally Read their games. (EP8)
- Readers are not necessarily Game Masters. (EP6, EP7)
- Readers don't have to distort the events they're Reading. (EP6, EP8)
- Reader distortions aren't necessarily intentional. (EP6, EP7)
- There can be several levels of Readers. (EP6)

So I think that Reading encompasses any kind of interpretive activity toward a sequence of events, which includes but is not limited to overwriting stuff with fantasy scenes. And, I don't think a player normally participates in Reading a game because the whole point of the game is to see through the GM's Reading.
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-18, 18:12   Link #27142
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Are you sure about that? If I recall correctly, it was 11:45 when Genji came to get Battler, and I doubt it took 15 minutes to get upstairs.

Maybe Battler didn't wake up at all, and the end sequence up to midnight was filled in as a dream, like Maria's dream of killing Rosa in EP4.
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-18, 18:19   Link #27143
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You're forgetting that that scene took place after the end of the game. At that point, Magic and Illusions consumes the island.
The problem with this is that piece!Genji joined piece!Battler before midnight:

Quote:
Sun, Oct 5 1986 11:30PM
and the talk he had with him didn't seem to last half a hour, so unless the bomb exploded earlier, the game was still supposed to go on for half a hour.

So my best explanation for Battler meeting Kinzo and Beato is that he was completely drunk and out of it. That or Rosa killed him while we weren't looking.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-18, 18:50   Link #27144
Toku
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Um. Quick question. Does anyone happen to remember exactly what part of EP6 I'm remembering here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
And I'm absolutely certain that BATTLER said something to this effect in EP6 to Chick!Beato when she asked him a question (I don't remember what the question was though):
"I won't tell you. Because the old you would have known it, and I'm hoping you can remember it on your own. So let me believe for just a little longer..."
...Because I can't find it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
How? At no point has the Reader ever created a Fantasy that wasn't already present in the story.

On top of that, Readers as a concept didn't even exist in EP5. What Battler is saying here is that since there are multiple perspectives in the story, and that only one of those perspectives is reliable, we have a narrative that contradicts objective observation, something present in most all other mystery stories regardless of any such "reader".
Hm... But if that's the case, then why is "a game board without a Reader" treated the same as "a game without any changes or embellishments, with no tricks played on the one hearing the story"?

If the two are the same, then in order to have a Fantasy side of the story, one must have a Reader.

Not only that, but Battler, who reads mystery genre stories all the time, said clearly in my quote that, on the contrary, the constant premise of the mystery genre is that it must be told from the impartial, objective perspective of God. And you just said that it's the complete opposite. I've never read too many mystery genre stories though, so actually, I don't have any idea which it is. It would be pretty weird if Battler was just totally and completely wrong though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Ok, so not only can we see the pattern, but I think we can now see exactly *what* the thing was that changed the innocent Beatrice we saw in early EP7 to the angry one in EP1-2. I mean beyond just that Battler wasn't there for her.

I'm tempted to think this is what he meant by Without Love It Cannot Be Seen. If you don't gain an understanding of Yasu, you'd just conclude that she's crazy or psycho and nothing would make sense. But if you understood her inability to express her rage except only through Beatrice, because she has this particular problem, then it makes sense. Not that her actions are right, but that you understand the mentality of screaming something like, "Stop it or else I'll shoot!"

That may just be me being conceited though, I'm not 100% sure on that Love phrase. 8)
The reason I don't yet accept this is because I don't believe Yasu killed anyone in Prime. But, I suppose it's viable.

What do you mean by exactly what the thing was that changed her, though? I don't think we're quite on the same page there.

Quote:
She is his Aunt *and* Cousin, as they sometimes say in the stereotypical Deep South. Happy Fun Cyclic Family Tree time here... 8)
True. Well, if the aunt is only one year older than you though, I don't think it's that terrible.
Toku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-18, 18:51   Link #27145
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yes, we do, because Piece!Erika is fully aware of the Meta-World and uses out-of-Game knowledge constantly. No other character on Rokkenjima can do this outside of a Fantasy scene.
The fact that piece!Erika sometimes seem aware of the meta world and of the meta knowledge cannot confirm she's always aware of what's going on there.
In that specifical istance is even more difficult as we don't know if Meta!Erika was present. She wasn't there when Meta!Battler witnessed the scene and, in the beginning, it was Bern that played with Lambda in the meta world and Bern likes to bully Erika.

Kanon and Shannon also have meta knowledge.
Piece!Battler has moments in which he seems to be connected to Meta!Battler following his directions and echoing his words as if the two were one and the same and moments in which he's completely disconnected by it.

So as far as I'm involved yours is just a theory with circumstancial evidence that clashes with circumstancial evidence she might not be aware of it.

From an objective point of view I'll say they both have a 50% possibility to be true or wrong and the sides of the scales are tipped merely due to our personal preferences.

Let's call it a draw...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Erika also has superhuman senses and other abilities that Battler was not afforded, such as the ability to invoke Red Truth on the Gameboard in order to control the actions of other Pieces.
Wait, can you tell me what are you talking about? Because I remember in the trial she had to prove all her red truths with human means...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Evidence and Proof are different concepts. Proof is absolute and certain; Evidence just strongly suggests it. (An example of evidence would be something like finding a tattered piece of someone's clothing covered in blood. Evidence that something bad happened to them but not PROOF).
Then I gave you evidence how it's possible piece!Erika worked in a certain way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yea, and no one comments on Jessica being blonde, either. The appearances of the characters don't actually matter and effectively do not exist within the narrative unless it becomes important. Hell, Ryukishi has even said in an interview that characters don't drip wet when they come in from the rain because it "Wasn't important."
Well, maybe it's just a personal opinion but I deem pretty important the fact that Shannon and Kanon have exectly the same face. But yes, Ryukishi has a odd idea about what's important and what's not. Evidently realism isn't included in the important things... -_- ... though I seem to remember he also said Umineko is a logic game... and sometimes logic games can care less about realism...
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-18, 19:25   Link #27146
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Are you sure about that? If I recall correctly, it was 11:45 when Genji came to get Battler, and I doubt it took 15 minutes to get upstairs.

Maybe Battler didn't wake up at all, and the end sequence up to midnight was filled in as a dream, like Maria's dream of killing Rosa in EP4.
I'm of the opinion he never woke up, because Shannon had killed herself and Kinzo was dead the whole time. So why in the fuck would Genji summon Battler up to that room?
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-18, 19:40   Link #27147
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Hm... But if that's the case, then why is "a game board without a Reader" treated the same as "a game without any changes or embellishments, with no tricks played on the one hearing the story"?
Comedy "Because Bern is an ass"

But yea, I've said before that embellishments can distort and change what the audience perceives without altering information. Tricks do not have to constitute false information and I wish people would bother to acknowledge that point instead of ignoring it.

Quote:
If the two are the same, then in order to have a Fantasy side of the story, one must have a Reader.
Yea, well, they're not. This was demonstrated at the same time the concept of Readers was introduced.

Quote:
Not only that, but Battler, who reads mystery genre stories all the time, said clearly in my quote that, on the contrary, the constant premise of the mystery genre is that it must be told from the impartial, objective perspective of God. And you just said that it's the complete opposite. I've never read too many mystery genre stories though, so actually, I don't have any idea which it is. It would be pretty weird if Battler was just totally and completely wrong though...
What the hell are you talking about? I said no such thing. I'm agreeing with Battler but disagreeing on where you're taking that information.

I'm positing that Umineko is genuinely, objectively different from other Mysteries in that it contains non-objective viewpoints and lying points of view, and this is completely irrelevant of a Reader's possible influence.

Quote:
The fact that piece!Erika sometimes seem aware of the meta world and of the meta knowledge cannot confirm she's always aware of what's going on there.
And yet, there has absolutely been no demonstrated point where Meta!Erika and Piece!Erika have ever had this sort of disconnect, so why should we even bother to entertain the idea? It's just as completely unsupported and silly as "Ange was on the island the whole time and killed everyone."

Quote:
Kanon and Shannon also have meta knowledge.
Only in Fantasy scenes, and in Fantasy scenes, any character can know any damn thing the author wants, including Kyrie insinuating that Lambdadelta is her master.

Quote:
Piece!Battler has moments in which he seems to be connected to Meta!Battler following his directions and echoing his words as if the two were one and the same and moments in which he's completely disconnected by it.
Piece!Battler has never broken the 4th Wall by commenting on Meta-phenomena by name, speaking with Meta-Entities while on the Gameboard, discussing and using Red Truth and Blue Truth, or otherwise breaking the very basis of the narrative's suspension of disbelief. Battler and Erika are not the slightest bit comparable.

Quote:
So as far as I'm involved yours is just a theory with circumstancial evidence that clashes with circumstancial evidence she might not be aware of it.

From an objective point of view I'll say they both have a 50% possibility to be true or wrong and the sides of the scales are tipped merely due to our personal preferences.

Let's call it a draw...
Except you have not given me a single scrap of evidence that at all implies that Erika has ever had a disconnect of information between any of her selves. You have only demonstrated that such is the case for other characters, who do not function the same way Erika does.

This is not a draw in any sense. You have provided no evidence.

Quote:
Wait, can you tell me what are you talking about? Because I remember in the trial she had to prove all her red truths with human means...
Bossing around people with the Red Truth is something she did quite a few times. Remember the First Twilight of Episode Five?

Quote:
Well, maybe it's just a personal opinion but I deem pretty important the fact that Shannon and Kanon have exectly the same face. But yes, Ryukishi has a odd idea about what's important and what's not. Evidently realism isn't included in the important things... -_- ... though I seem to remember he also said Umineko is a logic game... and sometimes logic games can care less about realism...
I think we can safely disregard the importance of realism in Umineko the second Meta-shenanigans got introduced. Realism has absolutely no place in the world of meta-fiction.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-18, 19:59   Link #27148
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
@Kylon:

Your theory reminded me of something in another novel I read recently.
Spoiler for Kokoro Connect vol. 1:

If you start from the premise that Yasu had this kind of problem, and then she received the additional shock to her perceived identity from Genji etc.'s revelations, then I think a similar sort of breakdown and seeking for someone to tell her who she's supposed to be is not out of the question.

That said, I don't really feel comfortable ascribing mental health problems to Yasu to explain the murders because I don't think she planned to commit any in the first place.
Hmm, that's very interesting about that other story. Certainly there are probably other ways to develop into this same situation. However, I'm not saying that this has to be a psychological or mental health problem, but I'm leaning more towards a physiological problem with the brain stem. This is only because I was watching a TED video about recent findings of the interaction between the brain stem and the cortex, where, as I said before: "damage to the periaqueductal gray area of the brain stem" results in loss of consciousness. (TED video at around 11:57 ... http://www.ted.com/talks/antonio_dam...ciousness.html ) Maybe in Yasu's case it was some kind of partial damage. And it seemed there also exists psychological conditions where people feel they are losing their self.

Note that none of this suggests that she is driven to murder by some kind of psychosis or mental illness; just that she's realizing how disabled she is for the first time in her life. The post prior to that post of my theory talks about how people become suicidally depressive after similar or even lighter (like in Battler's case) brain damage. So she would be driven to murder through 3 years of real despair, a real sense of loss and tragedy that she only realized when she thought she had gained everything.

And I think the key is that, if then she cannot express these emotions, since to her, 'she' does not exist, then she can't express her happiness or anger, except through her personas. (But of course this tragedy didn't happen to her personas; Shannon, Beatrice, nothing like being thrown off a cliff by your mother happened to them. It's this non-entity Yasu that suffered the tragedy, and yet this Yasu has the inability to express it.) And so it is Beatrice that expresses all the anger and Shannon expresses all the love. And Kanon all the pessimisim; he always gets the short end of the stick, poor guy...

Anyways, I'm not 100% clear on how this developed, but I'm starting to feel certain that she lacks the ability to actually have a self. More below...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
What do you mean by exactly what the thing was that changed her, though? I don't think we're quite on the same page there.
Just what I mentioned above... that she never really had a self but didn't realize this until she inherited the Gold and the legacy. While she had been happily living out her dreams through her personas before, she was told where she came from by Gensawajo and what she had lost. Personally, I wouldn't deal with it in such a way, but I can imagine for some people the sense of realizing what you have lost, or what you could never have in the way normal people can can be devastating. Like being told that you lost your legs, but worse. Basically in the post prior to the link I have, I indicated how suicidally depressive people who have had brain injuries can become.



And also, I've been discussing this with some friends and it just seems to answer more and more things. Or at least it provides a concrete way of viewing things:

Like look at this discussion that George and the cousins are having about Maria and her dual personalities. (This is from Judoh's George Culprit theory.)
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2...orgepoint3.jpg

Now, since Yasu was writing this episode, imagine it's not the cousins having this discussion... because it most likely is not since it's written. Imagine this is all Yasu working out her identity problem. 8) This is the Pessmisitc, Self-Deprecating Adult Yasu talking, that learned of her disability and is now looking down at the child-like naive Yasu that she used to be mere months before. At least if you keep in mind my theory while reading it, it totally reads like it.


Other stuff keeps fitting too. Genji had an eagle too but I assume this was Kinzo's doing. So why did Shannon and Kanon have eagles? If Shkannon was truly a trick that Yasu was intent on hiding, putting eagles on those two would have been a dead giveaway! Yet the eagles are there. Why? Because in the end they are not mere roles she was playing. They, along with Beatrice are considered by her to be *real* parts of her, not some mask. (Discardable roles would be like the Man From 19 Years Ago.) So, my opinion is that she could not not put eagles on them; it would be like if she didn't put an eagle on herself after being the head of the family. (But she can't put an eagle on herself, because there is no herself.)

I'm talking about Shkannon wearing eagles in the stories of course. I have no idea about Rokkenjima Prime. 8)
Basically it's a dead giveaway in the story that she could not not have placed out there; it would be similar to us disrespecting ourselves.

I'm about 60% sure on this last one. 8) But at the very least, I'm starting to think she views Shannon and Kanon not as discardable as we thought them to be. And if she is so serious about Shannon and Kanon though, I could imagine when she DID discard them, it would be like cutting off a limb. That limb effectively dies. It is literally death of a piece of her.


Anyways, it's an idea that I think has merit and seems to provide answers. The mechanics of the physiological brain damage or psychological problem I haven't fully worked out, yet. But this truly feels like The Answer, and that almost all the dialogue and scenes in the game were about it. And I am seriously seeing why Ryukishi wouldn't want to just fart it all out at the end like the end of Psycho the movie where some psychologist comes out and explains it all to the audience in a soliloquy. (I guess 1960's audiences were more accepting of something like that.)
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-18, 20:29   Link #27149
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Sorry, double post again. 8) I'll try not to triple post.... but the thoughts are coming fast now. These are all consequences if the story and Yasu if Yasu truly has a problem with self identity.

Why can't Yasu leave the island? Which of her personas can leave the island? Well, Kanon can and Shannon can. But Beatrice cannot leave the island, since her myth is closely tied to it. The other two can leave for awhile but to leave permanently to go after Battler or George means to rip away Beatrice.

To us normal people it feels like we're just going to give up pretending. But to someone with no self identity it's like sawing off a limb.

Which she DOES, when she decides in EP6. (Or Tooya imagines this for her.) Imagine the pain of doing this for her if it was real.


More... this is just an interesting thought experiment:

Imagine you living your life. You wake up, you get some toast, you go walk the dog. Now imagine how Yasu lives it. Just WHO wakes up? Then who eats the toast? Who walks the dog? You can't live your life as a non-entity doing these things, it makes no sense to your brain. So you start making up the who, because there cannot logically be a no-one who did all those things.

Etc., etc... Anyways.. I'll shut up now. 8)
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-18, 20:42   Link #27150
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
Not only that, but Battler, who reads mystery genre stories all the time, said clearly in my quote that, on the contrary, the constant premise of the mystery genre is that it must be told from the impartial, objective perspective of God. And you just said that it's the complete opposite. I've never read too many mystery genre stories though, so actually, I don't have any idea which it is. It would be pretty weird if Battler was just totally and completely wrong though...
Well, there are many mysteries that are told by the perspective of God and some who simply aren't.
To make two Christie's examples that are mentioned in Umineko:
Spoiler for Spoiler for Christies's mysteries:


I think it's more common mysteries are told with the perspective of God... or, when they aren't, at least you get hints the perspective isn't necessary reliable.

(You get hints the scene described is merely 'what others told someone else it happened' and so they might have lied and the description might be unreliable)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
True. Well, if the aunt is only one year older than you though, I don't think it's that terrible.
I think in Japan is okay if you commit incest with a cousin but it's not if you commit it with a aunt... so there could be a problem here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And yet, there has absolutely been no demonstrated point where Meta!Erika and Piece!Erika have ever had this sort of disconnect, so why should we even bother to entertain the idea? It's just as completely unsupported and silly as "Ange was on the island the whole time and killed everyone."
Listen, if you don't agree with me, that's fine for me but I'd apprecciate if you wouldn't tell me that we shouldn't even bother to entertain an idea or that it's silly, just to name the first two things that came up in your first two periods of your answer to me.
It makes hard to keep on talking with you when you do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The problem with that is that ...
Spoiler for Behind a spoiler cut for lenght:
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-18, 20:45   Link #27151
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Listen, if you don't agree with me, that's fine for me but I'd apprecciate if you wouldn't tell me that we shouldn't even bother to entertain an idea or that it's silly, just to name the first two things that came up in your first two periods of your answer to me.
It makes hard to keep on talking with you when you do this.
There's magnitudes of difference between "We shouldn't entertain an idea" and "This idea has nothing supporting it."

I specifically used the idea because I entertained Ange Culprit Theory.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-19, 05:55   Link #27152
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
~~~
I haven't commented on it until now, but all this psychology stuff has been very interesting.

So, I was thinking about how strange a coincidence it was that Battler got such a similar form of brain damage as Yasu. Then I wondered if maybe it wasn't a coincidence. What if Ikuko was Yasu and she somehow inflicted it on Battler on purpose? What if Battler wasn't even a victim but volunteered to become that way?

Pretty ridiculous, I know, but it actually makes a lot of things... fit.

Anyway, just some wild speculation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The "No Reader = No Falsehoods" thing is complete bullshit if only on the grounds that Bern's Game totally has falsehoods.
Toku already pointed out your error here before I could, so it's your move on this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Tools-Who-Are-Not-Persons do not have a subjective viewpoint with which to corrupt and distort the telling of a story.
What a tool does is determined by the tool's user, who has a subjective viewpoint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And you are choosing to interpret "distort" in a very specific, unsupported, and personally preferred way that isn't even metaphorically analogous to how readers work in every other medium of life and fiction, which is a direct contrast to how you argue the usage of terms such as Piece, Player, Gameboard, and the like.
You are technically right that a reader could "distort" a story without changing the text. However, this leg of my argument is mostly about the attitudes of all the characters in the discussion. The fact that Bern is not using a Reader comes as a big surprise to all. Lambdadelta seems alarmed; she seems to think it makes Bern practically defenseless; Battler seems exited by Bern's head-on challenge. If all a Reader does is emphasize certain words and sound effects with their voice then considering the voiceless format of Umineko why the hell is so much attention drawn to a Reader's potential effect on a story? Why do they care so much? Why should we care? Is Bern afraid of a few extra commas and dot-dot-dots added to the written text we read?

The terms point is a fair one, but I believe that's RK07's double standard, not mine. He has likened reading and writing to a competitive game between reader and writer before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Totes did that, see above.
Who is Totes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Okay, except... none of that has anything to do with your theory. Your theory is about Readers, which don't exist in the "game" scenarios. There is no indication that the "distortions" applied by a Reader, even if able to misrepresent the very character of the story to an individual who has supernatural confirmation abilities and a perspective present in the actual story - please stop dodging that, it's getting aggravating, address it - apply in any way to the Game Master/Player dynamic.
But Readers, whatever they may be, seem to have affected the narration of every story except Bern's game and maybe Our Confessions. They can be either the Game Master or Player, or alternatively they could be some vague invisible 3rd party, which, based off of some of your earlier criticisms, I imagine you would find unpalatable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Saying "she assumed they were separate so it was depicted that they are even though her piece would not have seen that" is something which has never happened during a game. Battler made a lot of false assumptions in ep1-4, but they didn't suddenly become true because he did so. We know this because we have independent confirmation.
But those assumptions were often depicted as true. Suppose the "assumption" mechanic I am suggesting helps create the scenes that depict something false. To put it another way, the "assumption" mechanic plays a part in unreliable narration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
For example, Battler assumes the chapel is locked in ep2. He never actually confirms that it isn't. By your reasoning, the chapel became locked as a result, or would have actually been locked on a replay of the same events to an observer of the game. Except Will says the answer is "it wasn't locked" (in so many words)
The chapel would, and did, become locked on the Game Board, but The Truth is that it was never locked. This is because what happens on the Game Board is not necessarily The Truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
. And Our Confessions makes clear that Beatrice has intended solutions to each of her tricks. So even though Battler can interact in some way and she can improvise in some way, she can't make the chapel suddenly be locked if the whole trick was "make a big show of giving the key to Maria, then don't actually lock the chapel door." The chapel door will never be locked, Shannon's body will never be in the ep1 shed, and if the adults posted a guard at every room they checked in ep3's First Twilight Kanon would never be found in the chapel. The only difference is whether Battler actually confirms it by being present through his piece and doing something.
Game Boards aren't static. They are worlds shaped by embellishment and interpretation. The creation of a Game Board starts off with a set of certain facts (mystery-related events) that comprise an incomplete story then embellishments and interpretation (fantasy, unreliable narration) are incorporated to fill in the rest and form a complete story. Thus, some things that happen on the Game Board are The Truth; some things aren't.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-19, 12:04   Link #27153
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The chapel would, and did, become locked on the Game Board, but The Truth is that it was never locked. This is because what happens on the Game Board is not necessarily The Truth.
The truth of... what? There is no truth relevant to the game outside of the truth of the gameboard.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-19, 12:15   Link #27154
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm of the opinion he never woke up, because Shannon had killed herself and Kinzo was dead the whole time. So why in the fuck would Genji summon Battler up to that room?
In an interview Ryukishi said this:

Quote:
K That was really interesting right now. From the beginning of the depiction of magical events within the story, there were many scenes were golden butterflies appeared in front of the people. Latching on to Rosa’s back, Genji throwing a knife at one, I always thought that this was to show when something illusionary is depicted, but what would you say?

R It’s almost that meaning. To just come out and say it, there are no golden butterflies. When somebody starts seeing them, he is starting to go insane.
So I wonder if Genji was insane and brought a drunk Battler to an empty room (Genji might have figured out Yasu had turned the game into a massacre and feel so much regret for having been unable to anticipate it that this is the result). Drunkness and Genji's words caused Battler to 'see' Beato and Kinzo.

Though it's also possible Battler never woke up.

Personally I think EP 2 is pretty unclear about this.

The only thing that seems to be pretty secure is that Battler was drunk so 'goodbye reliable point of view'...
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-19, 13:20   Link #27155
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
In Ep 5 Battler says:

Quote:
Also, at the end of the 1st game, it was revealed that this tale was passed on to people in the future by that message bottle.

......Someone had written about this crime...this tale.

In other words, ......this tale is all part of a world which includes the personal opinions of an observer, namely, the person who wrote that message in a bottle.

In other words, the observer isn't God.
It's a human.

Therefore, there's no guarantee that this description is truly impartial.

By the end of the 1st game, it had already been made clear that we've broken the constant premise of the mystery genre: that the story itself must be seen through the eyes of God.

For that reason, it's possible to doubt even the observer, as well as the witnesses.
He doesn't really talk about someone reading the tale to him... but of someone 'reading the facts in a certain way and writing them down in a tale he... read? witnessed? was read about?'.

And in Ep 6:

Quote:
"Be an observer for me. An observer of the Fragments Beatrice has woven."

"An observer...? I don't really know what you mean, but no deal."

"In the past, I observed the Fragments through Battler's eyes. ......However, now that he has succeeded the position of Game Master, he is not a suitable observer. I am following this tale with true and earnest intentions. It would be such a waste to observe it through the eyes of Battler as he is now, like reading a detective novel backwards..."

"......Onii-chan is the Game Master?? What on Earth are you talking about?"

"Of course you don't know. You want to know, don't you? ......I too wish to know something. What kind of tale will Battler weave now that he has taken the position of Game Master? ...Furthermore, I wish to search for the truth Battler reached as part of my own mental journey. .........My illness affects me gravely. If I do not think, I cannot even keep my heart beating..."

".........So, ...you want me to read your new picture book aloud to you...?"

"You might as well interpret it that way. In exchange, you will also be able to take part in your own journey of the mind. I do believe that even you have yet to reach the truth. .........I think you want to continue on the journey to find that truth."
So, although Ange is supposed to be a reader, she's called in to observe, to read a 'picture book' for Featherine. The fact she is 'observing' the tale comes up more than once in other parts of EP 6.

When reading text the amount of interpretation we can add is pretty minimal and it will influence mostly the tone with which the quotes from the characters are read and we don't really observe things... we just read them and, at best, we picture them in our mind.

However if what we're supposed to read is... let's say a manga to a person who's not going to watch the scene drawn, we've to describe them using our words. In this way we can influence the plot a lot more.

If the 'reading' Ange is doing is some sort of 'meta' reading, in short it can be in the meta world the tale is being 'seen' by her and she narrates her interpretation of what she sees to Featherine. That's her 'reading' and that's how she can influence the reading. She can't really change the plot of what she's seeing but she's telling Featherine the story using her own words.

And yes, this would mean Umineko basically instead than using 'reader' with the usual meaning of 'person who read a written text' used it with the meaning of 'person who read a situation (and then reports it according to his own interpretation to another)'.

Note that Featherine said she was 'watching the stories' through Battler's eyes and that it was made clear in EP 3 that Battler was called to give his own interpretation of the story (remember the discussion between him and Beato about the magic battle between Beato and Virgilia?), so maybe in a fashion, Beato was being the reader for Battler, as she gave him a fantasy interpretation of facts, and Battler was also a reader, as he gave facts his own interpretation.

... and this is just a newborn theory so it can have holes.

Also...

Quote:
It was hard to actually like this Hachijo Tohya person.
......However, though this forgery she had written was still in its first stages, ...it definitely felt as though it had something very similar to the tales in those message bottles.
Speaking metaphorically, ......one might call it a scent.
An indescribable stern atmosphere, ......like a stuffy library.
The 'Beatrice' who wrote the message bottles and Hachijo Tohya are different people.
......And yet, this has the same scent as that tale...
......I see.
This is why some of those curious Witch Hunters are so intensely devoted to her...
Their keen sense of smell was able to sniff out that familiar scent......

(...)

Amakusa badgered me to turn the page, ......so I returned to the world of the tale once more.
......Why does her tale have the same scent as Beatrice's, I wonder...
Is it because......she actually has reached the truth, as she claims?
Does this mean that anyone who knows the truth could create an endless number of message bottles?
......Is that what the cat box world is like...?
I see. ......I guess she might also be an Endless Witch.
In fact, ......maybe anyone who knows the truth can become an Endless Witch.
An endless tale, created by the Endless Witches.
The two days starting on October 4, 1986, where my family is being toyed with endlessly.
Ange's explanation about the common scents might be the truth of course... but in a mystery doesn't the Watson's suggestions exist to depiste the reader?
So can this be a hint that Featherine is also one of Yasu's personas?
Or is it just a read herring?
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-19, 15:07   Link #27156
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The only thing that seems to be pretty secure is that Battler was drunk so 'goodbye reliable point of view'...
Hmm in EP4 Battler was also drunk, but his viewpoint was still reliable and he could investigate... well aside from the Beatrice, he saw at 23:59 when he was standing next to the Beatrice picture in the hall... or was it 00:00 already?
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-19, 15:42   Link #27157
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Hmm in EP4 Battler was also drunk, but his viewpoint was still reliable and he could investigate... well aside from the Beatrice, he saw at 23:59 when he was standing next to the Beatrice picture in the hall... or was it 00:00 already?
In EP 4 Battler got drunk after he investigated so there's no problem with his point of view.

Also in EP 4:

Quote:
......When I exited the kitchen and passed through the lobby, .........that portrait of the witch came into view.
The big clock did too.
......It was almost exactly 24:00.
Then, the sound of the bell rang out, proclaiming that it was 24:00......
As I listened, ......I looked up at Beatrice's portrait.
Exactly 24 hours ago, I met you.
What were you trying to say...?
And where did you go?
Just who in the world are you.........?
Golden Witch, Beatrice.
I haven't solved a single one of the riddles surrounding you......!
Show yourself...
.........And fight with me...!!
Then, ......the witch showed herself.
Like a guest of honor finally appearing, she showed herself on the landing at the top of the big staircase......
So Beato showed up after midnight.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-19, 16:04   Link #27158
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Toku already pointed out your error here before I could, so it's your move on this one.
Well, if I wanted to be a jerk I could argue that "falsehoods" was never defined as fantasy scenes, and it could and should mean falsehoods from the characters too. It's just as flimsy as this currently proposed definition of a Reader's powers, which is based on next to nothing.

Or are people going to engage in Special Pleading again?

Quote:
What a tool does is determined by the tool's user, who has a subjective viewpoint.
And Bern says she didn't get to do any Gamemastering, which implies she didn't get to write any narratives or anything. Clair is clearly channeling Yasu, who most definitely came up with these fantasy embellishments herself because....seriously, it's Yasu.

If Clair is just repeating what Yasu came up with, in what way is Clair embellishing it?

And how can a Reader embellish a story if they do not have a personality or soul? She's basically a Kindle.

Quote:
You are technically right that a reader could "distort" a story without changing the text. However, this leg of my argument is mostly about the attitudes of all the characters in the discussion. The fact that Bern is not using a Reader comes as a big surprise to all. Lambdadelta seems alarmed; she seems to think it makes Bern practically defenseless; Battler seems exited by Bern's head-on challenge. If all a Reader does is emphasize certain words and sound effects with their voice then considering the voiceless format of Umineko why the hell is so much attention drawn to a Reader's potential effect on a story? Why do they care so much? Why should we care? Is Bern afraid of a few extra commas and dot-dot-dots added to the written text we read?
This isn't a very compelling argument because this isn't nowhere near the first or even most significant thing Ryukishi's drawn attention to with big reactions from the characters that didn't lead anywhere or really mean anything.

But to attack the actual point, bear in mind that what tripped people up most wasn't the Fantasy Scenes, but the minor embellishments, such as a TIPS not being updated until Battler arrives, thus obscuring the time of death forever.

Quote:
The terms point is a fair one, but I believe that's RK07's double standard, not mine. He has likened reading and writing to a competitive game between reader and writer before.
He's also compared it to a love letter, and said that if one must choose between the two interpretations, the 'game' one is less accurate. And I don't know how many love letters you've gotten, but you don't put a shitton of falsehoods in there.

Quote:
Who is Totes?
Totes = Totally, sorry. ^_^;

Quote:
Game Boards aren't static. They are worlds shaped by embellishment and interpretation. The creation of a Game Board starts off with a set of certain facts (mystery-related events) that comprise an incomplete story then embellishments and interpretation (fantasy, unreliable narration) are incorporated to fill in the rest and form a complete story. Thus, some things that happen on the Game Board are The Truth; some things aren't.
The Red Truth is Simply the Truth. The Truth cannot be escaped from. The Truth cannot be avoided. And, in the words of a great many philosophers, 'Truth is that which doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.'

Quote:
Ange's explanation about the common scents might be the truth of course... but in a mystery doesn't the Watson's suggestions exist to depiste the reader?
So can this be a hint that Featherine is also one of Yasu's personas?
Or is it just a read herring?
It was definitely foreshadowing that Toya had a legitimate connection to Rokkenjima, which she does (Battler, who is the actual writer).
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-19, 16:06   Link #27159
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
In an interview Ryukishi said this:
No offense, but I've stopped caring what Ryukishi had to say almost a year ago.

Quote:
Hmm in EP4 Battler was also drunk, but his viewpoint was still reliable and he could investigate... well aside from the Beatrice, he saw at 23:59 when he was standing next to the Beatrice picture in the hall... or was it 00:00 already?
It was 00:00. Though I'll note that when EP4 Battler started investigating, he had already stopped drinking and might have gotten over it.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-19, 16:20   Link #27160
Toku
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
No offense, but I've stopped caring what Ryukishi had to say almost a year ago.
Well then. There's completely no point to you being in Umineko discussions if you no longer respect the author of the story.

You used one of the TIPS to argue your point a bit ago, and I'm pretty sure you said something like "if you disagree with this, then you're disagreeing with Ryukishi."

You sure seemed to accept that the text in that TIP was the truth though...
Toku is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:09.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.