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Old 2011-11-25, 02:54   Link #1001
Masuzu
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Yes they do, but so does wisdom, no?
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Old 2011-11-25, 02:56   Link #1002
sukidanica
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Thanks for the sweets! . -Kiss x Kiss. LOL. I really love that "sweets" scene
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Old 2011-11-25, 03:34   Link #1003
careph
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Actually, education and awareness do involve knowledge.
That depends on how you define them

Seriously, definitions like the ones you find in dictionaries are just attempts to find an approximation of how people speak a language, of how they play around with the words. "People" already suggests a uniformity that does not exist. Which people? When? Different people at different times play with language differently using different sets of rules. Definitions are static, language is dynamic.
Considering the complexity of language it is remarkable that we can even communicate at all. Abstract terms like "knowledge", but also "love", "justice", "freedom" and the like have baffled us for millenia, and yet we frequently use these words without even knowing what precisely we mean by them, much less what conception our conversation partner has. It does however to some extent explain why there is so much miscommunication, and most certainly humbles anybody who seriously contemplates language.
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Old 2011-11-25, 11:02   Link #1004
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Detective-san View Post
Yes they do, but so does wisdom, no?
It does, but wisdom is not the word in question, knowledge is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by careph View Post
That depends on how you define them
Well, how do you define them? To me, education imparts knowledge, and knowledge is being aware of something.
Quote:
Considering the complexity of language it is remarkable that we can even communicate at all.
That's because people can reach an agreement on the meaning of a word at a given point in time and within the specified context.

So, say what you want about how dictionaries can be imprecise. But it is a fact that the word ignorance in the English language is defined as lack of knowledge. Just because it is also defined as lack of education/awareness doesn't discredit the first definition, it merely adds to that.
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Old 2011-11-25, 12:44   Link #1005
careph
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
It does, but wisdom is not the word in question, knowledge is.
Actually, the original quote that sparked this discussion was about wisdom as well ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Well, how do you define them? To me, education imparts knowledge, and knowledge is being aware of something.
I don't. Why? Because language is symbolic, i.e. the symbols in the language represent something else (reality?), they signify or stand for something else. However, these representations always fall short of that which they represent.
Take Magritte's famous painting of a pipe:

http://www.myfreewallpapers.net/arti...tte-pipe.shtml

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe." - "This is not a pipe."
Even the best, in this case visual, representation of an object cannot retain the qualities of the object itself. You cannot touch the representation of a pipe, and you cannot smoke it. You can only touch and smoke the real thing.
With language as a system of symbols it's a little more complicated, but the basic idea is the same: While you play around with representations of objects, you actually believe you play around with the objects themselves. Without this confusion of representation and object, fiction would be impossible. In different contexts, however, this confusion is less pleasant. People actually believe they are talking about reality when really they are just using language, playing around with signs. Language is both the door to fantasy as well as the barrier that separates us forever from reality, since reality is mediated through language, and the representations in language fall short of that which they represent.
As a result (and also taking into account what I said in my previous post), defining things using language may be a heck of a lot of fun - but it is ultimately pointless.

But if you want my opinion not on what "knowledge" is, but on what "knowledge" does, I just recently had a rather extensive conversation on that topic with Knightrunner and you can read it on my profile if you like (scroll back a page or two). You seem like an intelligent fellow, maybe you can make more sense of what I said than I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
That's because people can reach an agreement on the meaning of a word at a given point in time and within the specified context.
Usually they don't. Usually they're just like you, making a claim to absolute truth by stipulating a definition of something in their minds and then silently (or even worse, loudly) assuming everybody shares their opinions. Miscommunication and frustration are often the result of such implicit, unspoken presuppositions.
Yet they are to some extent necessary, because language would be awfully clunky if you were to actually formulate all the implicit and hidden information in any given text. True, lexical definitions like "a man is an adult male human" are pretty unproblematic and most people would agree to that. "Man" does not need to be defined. Try explicating something like "knowledge" or "justice" and you will meet with fierce resistance. Even worse if you claim that yours is the only version and you make your private opinion look like it were an absolute truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
So, say what you want about how dictionaries can be imprecise.
It's not just dictionaries, they are just one example. The precision you are looking for does not exist in natural languages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
But it is a fact that the word ignorance in the English language is defined as lack of knowledge.
It may be a fact that you define it in that way, and it may be a fact that you claim that the English language did (Am I the only one who now imagines "the English language" as a withered old lady in a Union Jack dress, going around with a wagging finger telling other people how they should do things? ), but your opinion by no means expresses reality in any way or form, no matter how many times you repeat it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Just because it is also defined as lack of education/awareness doesn't discredit the first definition, it merely adds to that.
Read my post again, it does. If you still don't understand it, consider the non-exclusive "or" that is part of the dictionary definitions. In order for the definition to apply, only one part of the definition has to be true.
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Old 2011-11-25, 19:56   Link #1006
Hooves
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I am bone of my PSP
Buttons are my Body and Analog are my blood
I have Defeated over a Thousand Enemies
Unaware of being Overpowered
Nor Aware of Required level
Withstood Moe of Caster
Waiting for new skills and skill points
I have no regrets,I must Level more
My whole doing was Unlimited Grind Works ~ majestix1988
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Old 2011-11-26, 14:16   Link #1007
subwaygyal
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when in doubt, ask a friend
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Old 2011-11-26, 14:44   Link #1008
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Chiselled into a stone monument at the local hospital, dedicated to the (Jewish) doctors, nurses and other medical personnel who lost their lives during the Holocaust are the words, "The whole world is a very narrow bridge; and the most important thing is not to be afraid," attributed to Reb Nachman. I always liked that quote a lot.
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Old 2011-12-05, 05:32   Link #1009
kaizerknight01
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I do not concern myself with gods and spirits either good or evil nor do I serve any.

I have just three things to teach: simplicity, patience, compassion. These three are your greatest treasures.


He who conquers others is strong; He who conquers himself is mighty.



Lao Tzu

Always desire to learn something useful.

Sophocles

Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater.

Education is what remains after one has forgotten what one has learned in school.


I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - this is a somewhat new kind of religion.


I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.



Albert Einstein
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Old 2011-12-11, 18:13   Link #1010
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There is no good or evil in this world, only boring and interesting things.
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Old 2011-12-17, 17:47   Link #1011
Hooves
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Visual Novels are my soul~
Anime is my passion~
Manga is my bowl~

-Hooves
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Old 2012-01-10, 01:12   Link #1012
Urzu 7
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"May the seed of your loins be fruitful in the belly of your woman."

Something I read on another forum that made me laugh.
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Old 2012-01-16, 00:11   Link #1013
Hooves
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"I didn't post it, I quoted it."

-Hooves
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Old 2012-01-16, 00:21   Link #1014
kona~chan
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"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass... It's about learning how to dance in the rain."
Vivian Greene
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Old 2012-01-18, 19:10   Link #1015
monster
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I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with it, but I thought it was an interesting viewpoint.

Chakotay: Can I ask you to be honest with me, Lieutenant?
Tuvok: As a Vulcan, I am at all times honest, Commander.
Chakotay: That's not exactly true, You lied to me when you passed yourself off as a Maqui to get on my crew.
Tuvok: I was honest to my own convictions within the defined parameters of my mission.

- Star Trek Voyager
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Old 2012-01-19, 15:03   Link #1016
careph
 
 
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I find the beginning of Rainer Maria Rilke's Duino Elegies (Duineser Elegien) really beautiful - if not terrible.

"Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the Angelic
Orders? And even if one were to suddenly
take me to its heart, I would vanish into its
stronger existence. For beauty is nothing but
the beginning of terror, that we are still able to bear,
and we revere it so, because it calmly disdains
to destroy us. Every Angel is terror."

(Translation by A. S. Kline)

Spoiler for German original:
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Old 2012-01-19, 15:27   Link #1017
grylsyjaeger
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"Words are strong. Words can be weapons. But they’re only weapons when violence is hiding somewhere, ready to back them up.

We are that violence."

This is the Creed of my Tau Hunter Cadre, the 1st Rapid Intervention Cadre.
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Old 2012-01-21, 14:41   Link #1018
kaizerknight01
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"I saw my death in my dreams.

Many times.

But I didn't die. I was better than my fears. Better than my nightmares. But to find out, I had to face them all. I had to get through the worst to prove I was the best.

That was my reality."

Ace Combat assault horizon
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Old 2012-01-21, 17:04   Link #1019
grylsyjaeger
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"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life" - Winston Churchill

Really like this one;

"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is." - Vince Lombardi

Here's one I've snagged from Muv-Luv Alternative and I'll do well to remember it in the Army.

"Those who show others the way must not avert their eyes from the weight of responsibility." - Koubuin Yuuhi
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Last edited by grylsyjaeger; 2012-01-23 at 03:58.
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Old 2012-01-24, 16:40   Link #1020
ArabianLuffy
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"It's the World of Warcraft, my skills are Uncharted.
If you want Mass Effect, keep your Metal Gear Solid." - DeStorm

...
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