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Old 2012-01-22, 19:05   Link #27241
Cao Ni Ma
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I kinda understand Keriaku's theories because they are similiar to what I believe is going on in the game boards. I think that the game is in a state of superposition and that everything that could happen is happening at the same time. If someone with an objective point of view like piece Battler see it or if a red truth mentions an event, then it forces it to pick a side into a single truth.

So Shkanon could be individuals or a single person in games 1-4 because there is no concrete proof to force it to be a single answer. Same thing happens with the mountain of gold. For all we know, the gold shown in EP2 was fake, or it could be real but it was only a few bars, a far cry from the mountain we were led to believe. This is, in my opinion, the root of Beatrice's endless magic.

Now Lambda school is certainty, she can make anything a 100%. So she does, and makes a game were the gold is 100% real and plentiful. Now, she could have forced Shkanon to be a sure fact at the start of the game like she did with the gold. Instead she left it in the superposition. You cant see the number of people as a single number, doing that means that you fall into the trap. The number of people is X, Erika raises it by one, so its X+1. Erika objectively observes the game, this forces X to take a particular shape in that game. The shape Erika observes is 17.

The number of people has always been in the quantum position of X. At first it was (1,Infinity), Beatrice then limited to (1,18]. She then limited further to (1,17]. Erika just saw one of the possibilities of X. My idea still trips me up in the final series of reds in EP6 though, I still see it as them going "No, X=16".

So here is how I see the problem. Erika introduces herself and says she's the 18th human in Rokkenjima in red. By doing this she forces herself to exist in a world were X must be 17. Battler and Beatrice destroy her by denying the probability of that world from existing, because X can only be 16. So then what happens in EP5 were X had to be 17? Retconned, it never happened

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2012-01-22 at 19:30.
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Old 2012-01-22, 19:12   Link #27242
Toku
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I personally prefer to think that there's another explanation for which Erika never noticed that Shannon and Kanon weren't there that 'the scene is under a subjective viewpoint and, due to this, Erika can see magic'...
That's not what anyone here is saying.

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Well, personally I think that Erika existed and she wasn't... let's say Battler's imaginary friend, so I'm not even going to try and think if there's a way to work around the various red about Erika... though the idea of Erika not existing is interesting...
It would be amazing if she was Battler's imaginary friend, though. This might even be fic-worthy.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm curious if jjblue and Toku are aware of the old Ghost!Erika and ErikaBall theories.
Sadly, I'm not. I'm interested to hear about them though.
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Old 2012-01-22, 19:35   Link #27243
Kealym
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Grr, I hate not having internet access. Everyone decides to become chatty, chatty essayists while I'm gone. XD

As I've said before, this issue is just a sore spot for me. Noone's disproved my "Kanon has a body theory" (which in my mind explains everything, is still thematically fitting, and is rather simple to understand), and I doubt anyone can convince me otherwise. Or at least, I haven't heard any real counter.

...at the same time, I'm pretty exhausted on the topic. Alot of these theories are interesting, but a bit much to try and sift through all at once... I guess I'll bow out until we move on to another topic.
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Old 2012-01-22, 19:53   Link #27244
AuraTwilight
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Sadly, I'm not. I'm interested to hear about them though.
Well, there were lots of theories about Erika. Erika!Ball theory was that "Erika" never existed on a Gameboard, but was a title that could control different Pieces. Let's say, for instance, that Erika was controlling Jessica's Piece during the Logic Error, so it was Jessica as "Erika" that was looking for Battler in that room.

The advantage is that Erika doesn't have to be one Piece throughout the game. She's passed around like a ball.

Ghost!Erika is similar, supposing that Erika was an embodiment of the negative natures of all the women on Rokkenjima, including Yasu's. Notice that Erika only appears after Beatrice gives up on Battler, and dies as soon as Beatrice is survived and the two reconcile?
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Old 2012-01-22, 19:55   Link #27245
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm curious if jjblue and Toku are aware of the old Ghost!Erika and ErikaBall theories.
I'm aware they existed and I remember going through them... though I forgot most of their details... which is why I asked for someone to refresh my mind in a previous post...

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
That's not what anyone here is saying.
From my understanding it sound like: 'people (narrative) are lying on what Erika is seeing'... which I translated in 'people lied and said Erika witnessed something that in the end could only be explained with magic' (as Shannon and Kanon can't be seen in the same moment), or, in an even shoter sentence 'Thanks to subjective viewpoint Erika "can see magic"'.
Obviously I didn't mean Erika really saw it... just that we were told she saw something that was impossible to see without magic.

Though if I misunderstood you, I apologize.

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
It would be amazing if she was Battler's imaginary friend, though. This might even be fic-worthy.
In the beginning I tried to give Erika a similar role. To be exact I wanted her to be the ruthless, mystery solving side of Battler. They both read a lot and liked to use English sentences so they shared some similarities... though in the end I gave up on that theory to go for something in between.

As far as I'm involved the meta is merely what Toya's subconscious came up while writing his books about the witch of Rokkenjima... which would make everyone that's meta subconsciously created by him (though some of the meta characters can be based on... let's say, pictures on Maria's diary or a certain mystery game that's mentioned in Umineko... ^_-).

This would make Erika's personality something he created based to the info he could collect about a girl disappearing around the time of the Rokkenjima incident.

As sub theories I've considered the meta could also be something Ange or Ikuko (assuming Ikuko is Yasu) came up while reading or creating the novels.

Though there's no way to prove what the meta is so there are many theories and the thing is still up to debate.
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Old 2012-01-22, 20:47   Link #27246
Toku
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Grr, I hate not having internet access. Everyone decides to become chatty, chatty essayists while I'm gone. XD

As I've said before, this issue is just a sore spot for me. Noone's disproved my "Kanon has a body theory" (which in my mind explains everything, is still thematically fitting, and is rather simple to understand), and I doubt anyone can convince me otherwise. Or at least, I haven't heard any real counter.

...at the same time, I'm pretty exhausted on the topic. Alot of these theories are interesting, but a bit much to try and sift through all at once... I guess I'll bow out until we move on to another topic.
I know the feeling.

As for your theory, at first I liked it the best. But, that was because it seemed like the least ridiculous thing available. Now that this is no longer the case, I'm not too sure how I feel about it anymore. Plus, I found this Red Truth from EP4:

No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!
That excludes any 18th person.
In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!
This applies to all games!!!


Since the word "humans" was used specifically, I'm inclined to believe that this means that there cannot be more than 17 human bodies on the game board. And, it applies to all games. Furthermore, even with the "ShKanon" theory... If you add Erika in, the total is 17 bodies. According to this logic, Kanon cannot have a body in EP5.

...Well, it's a weak attempt at trying to deny your theory, I admit. I can think of quite a few ways to get around what I just said. But I thought you wanted to discuss your theory, so I tried to throw a small obstacle at you.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, there were lots of theories about Erika. Erika!Ball theory was that "Erika" never existed on a Gameboard, but was a title that could control different Pieces. Let's say, for instance, that Erika was controlling Jessica's Piece during the Logic Error, so it was Jessica as "Erika" that was looking for Battler in that room.

The advantage is that Erika doesn't have to be one Piece throughout the game. She's passed around like a ball.

Ghost!Erika is similar, supposing that Erika was an embodiment of the negative natures of all the women on Rokkenjima, including Yasu's. Notice that Erika only appears after Beatrice gives up on Battler, and dies as soon as Beatrice is survived and the two reconcile?
Erika!Ball theory is very interesting. In particular, if we say that the name "Furudo Erika" belongs to all Pieces on the game board, we can even get around all people can only use their own names!! in EP6.

It's also pretty amusing, since it reminds me of the Idiot Ball trope. Only problem is, it's slightly ridiculous.

Ghost!Erika seems to make Erika into the "Black Witch." I'm not sure how I feel about that. But you're right, the timing of her appearance and death does seem to coincide. Well, aside from the fact that she came back in EP8.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
From my understanding it sound like: 'people (narrative) are lying on what Erika is seeing'... which I translated in 'people lied and said Erika witnessed something that in the end could only be explained with magic' (as Shannon and Kanon can't be seen in the same moment), or, in an even shoter sentence 'Thanks to subjective viewpoint Erika "can see magic"'.
Obviously I didn't mean Erika really saw it... just that we were told she saw something that was impossible to see without magic.

Though if I misunderstood you, I apologize.
I guess you're more or less right. Well, you're free to use whatever theory you want. I mean, as far as I know, your theory seems plausible too. I can't really deny it. Or at least, not without going back and reading through the story again.

Quote:
In the beginning I tried to give Erika a similar role. To be exact I wanted her to be the ruthless, mystery solving side of Battler. They both read a lot and liked to use English sentences so they shared some similarities... though in the end I gave up on that theory to go for something in between.
I just checked, and this theory has unfortunately been denied.

Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

So, Erika was using a different body at the time of the logic error in EP6.

Of course, the Erika!Ball theory can get around this. However, the theory we get from combining Erika!Ball with "Erika is Battler's imaginary friend" is just... Lol.

(I already know that you said you gave up on this theory, I was just having fun with it)

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As far as I'm involved the meta is merely what Toya's subconscious came up while writing his books about the witch of Rokkenjima... which would make everyone that's meta subconsciously created by him (though some of the meta characters can be based on... let's say, pictures on Maria's diary or a certain mystery game that's mentioned in Umineko... ^_-).

This would make Erika's personality something he created based to the info he could collect about a girl disappearing around the time of the Rokkenjima incident.

As sub theories I've considered the meta could also be something Ange or Ikuko (assuming Ikuko is Yasu) came up while reading or creating the novels.

Though there's no way to prove what the meta is so there are many theories and the thing is still up to debate.
Personally, I'm inclined to believe that Ikuko is Yasuda and she wrote all eight episodes, with Tohya's help in later cases. It just ties everything up pretty nicely... In my opinion.
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Old 2012-01-22, 20:48   Link #27247
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
For example... let's say that the culprit must wear a costume with a cape to commit his crimes. So, to let the detective believe he's not the culprit he would say something along the line of 'look, there's a person wearing a cape escaping' and all the detective would see is a glimpse of a cape before it would disappear by his sight.
We would assume the detective witnessed the criminal escaping but later the detective would say 'sorry, I only saw a cape, you tricked me into thinking the culprit was wearing it but (insert trick here). So the excuse you were with me when the criminal was escaping didn't work.'
This is a good point. Costumes and disguises or other forms of detective deceoption shouldn't form the solution, but they can be tricks that the culprit uses to (ultimately fail) to dodge the detective.

I think that of the murder mystery part of the episodes, the solution wasn't always Shkannon, until the end of EP6, where even Meta-Battler goes, "Are you sure? The human side would be screaming at that being so unfair." Which it was, but if you go back through EP1-4, was Shkannon ever necessary for all the particulars of the murder mysteries? I can only think of the EP3 chained locked room where it was because Shkannon had two master keys... Hm...

In general though, Shkannon seems to form the answer only for the Greater Mystery, which is non-detective in nature, I think. It's that other 'Mystery' genre I was talking about, although this one doesn't seem supernatural in flavour.
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Old 2012-01-22, 21:03   Link #27248
fuff
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i need the answers to these: note i only watched the anime and i know about erika (a bit)

1.is shannon/kanon one person?
2.who was the killer in the end?
3.i dont get the whole witches/magic/stakes/etc things?-whats the point of them when the story is just a who done it type? is this just in battler's mind because he was the last one surviving?
4.so was the whole story basically finding out who killed the who Ushiromiya family?
5.and why did this person (i think its eva) wanted to kill everyone??
6.whats the whole jessica/erika relationship?
7. who are the main witches/setting everything up..bern/lambda?
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Old 2012-01-22, 21:10   Link #27249
Toku
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Originally Posted by fuff View Post
i need the answers to these: note i only watched the anime and i know about erika (a bit)

1.is shannon/kanon one person?
2.who was the killer in the end?
3.i dont get the whole witches/magic/stakes/etc things?-whats the point of them when the story is just a who done it type? is this just in battler's mind because he was the last one surviving?
4.so was the whole story basically finding out who killed the who Ushiromiya family?
5.and why did this person (i think its eva) wanted to kill everyone??
6.whats the whole jessica/erika relationship?
7. who are the main witches/setting everything up..bern/lambda?
I presume you don't mind spoilers then.

1. The two share one human body.
2. This is never really answered.
3. Umineko isn't merely about the Who Dunnit.
4. Not really. The story has a lot more to it than that. If you read the sound novels (which all have english patches now), you'll see.
5. This is also never really answered.
6. They can't stand each other.
7. You could say it's Featherine Augustus Aurora, if you want. But really, even that isn't confirmed.
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Old 2012-01-22, 21:39   Link #27250
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!
That excludes any 18th person.
In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!
This applies to all games!!!


Since the word "humans" was used specifically, I'm inclined to believe that this means that there cannot be more than 17 human bodies on the game board. And, it applies to all games. Furthermore, even with the "ShKanon" theory... If you add Erika in, the total is 17 bodies. According to this logic, Kanon cannot have a body in EP5.
This is invalidated in EP6 since Erika clearly said she was the 18th human in Rokkenjima in red. The only way this would hold water is if she said it and was locked into logic error. As to why she'd be able to fall into an error and not just lock up when trying to say it is anyones guess though.
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Old 2012-01-22, 21:49   Link #27251
Toku
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
This is invalidated in EP6 since Erika clearly said she was the 18th human in Rokkenjima in red. The only way this would hold water is if she said it and was locked into logic error. As to why she'd be able to fall into an error and not just lock up when trying to say it is anyones guess though.
That's what I'm confused about. Beatrice seems to be saying that there cannot be more than 17 humans in all games, and yet, Erika says that she is the 18th human. It's so confusing.

...Well, Erika!Ball gets around this, but. >_>; Then again, I guess Erika!Ball gets around everything.
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Old 2012-01-22, 22:35   Link #27252
AuraTwilight
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It's also pretty amusing, since it reminds me of the Idiot Ball trope. Only problem is, it's slightly ridiculous.

Ghost!Erika seems to make Erika into the "Black Witch." I'm not sure how I feel about that. But you're right, the timing of her appearance and death does seem to coincide. Well, aside from the fact that she came back in EP8.
Ridiculous? In Umineko? Surely you jest!

As for the Black Witch thing...Bern herself is quite strongly influenced by the Black Witch, so it'd be suiting. EP8 brought back like every fuckin' character except Clair, so that's not a biggie.
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Old 2012-01-23, 02:45   Link #27253
Drifloon
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1.is shannon/kanon one person?
Yes. Beatrice is also the same person. Though if you look at it 'with love', then they are more like three different people trapped inside a single body.

Quote:
2.who was the killer in the end?
For the game boards, Beatrice (though Eva probably did some of the murders in 3). For Ange's world, who knows.

Quote:
3.i dont get the whole witches/magic/stakes/etc things?-whats the point of them when the story is just a who done it type? is this just in battler's mind because he was the last one surviving?
The Game Master is allowed to show whatever they want outside the detective's viewpoint as long as the results match up to what the detective eventually sees. Battler never sees all the crazy magic battles and such. Beatrice can show the people getting killed in all kinds of strange ways as long as the end result - that their corpse is found - stays the same.

A lot of people think that the fantasy scenes do represent what actually occurred, though, so you can see them as sort of 'hints'. For example, I think that Kanon's duel with Beatrice in EP2 represents the personalities 'Kanon' and 'Beatrice' fighting for control of their shared body, because Beatrice wants to kill Jessica and Kanon wants to save her.

Quote:
4.so was the whole story basically finding out who killed the who Ushiromiya family?
lolno

Quote:
5.and why did this person (i think its eva) wanted to kill everyone??
It's very complicated. Nobody has come up with a conclusive explanation, but EP7 contains a lot of clues to it. I'd recommend reading that and coming up with your own answer.

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6.whats the whole jessica/erika relationship?
Nothing in particular? If you're talking about the silly stuff about Erika controlling Jessica's piece that was just being discussed, that's just a crack theory.

Quote:
7. who are the main witches/setting everything up..bern/lambda?
Lambda made the human Beatrice into a witch in the meta-world so that she could start the game with Battler, so you could say she started everything. But the stories of the game boards seem to have been written by the humans Hachijo Tohya and Hachijo Ikuko in 1998, one of whom has a meta-form called Featherine, so it's uncertain who's really behind everything. It's all open to interpretation - a lot of people think Ikuko/Featherine represents a future Beatrice. You should play EP6 and EP8 for more details.
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Old 2012-01-23, 02:59   Link #27254
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
My idea about Erika is that she's nothing else but Bern's Mary Sue.
Haha, well Bern does call her "her double".

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I'm one of those people who dislikes a certain part of the ending of EP8. And that part, is the part where BATTLER suddenly went super saiyan and beat the mess out of Bern when he shouldn't have been able to under any circumstances.
That scene bothered me for a similar reason when I read it the first time. When I read it the next time I was seeing Lambda and Bern as metaphors for metaphysical forces, gods, if you will. "Praying" to Bern is hoping things outside your control will go your way, while "praying" to Lambda is believing your efforts will be rewarded.

Meanwhile, the conflicts and alliances seen in the Meta-World are metaphors for things happening in the real world. Lambda and Bern, doing what they do, mean different things to different people in different situations. In this way they can play various roles (ally, villain etc.) in various circumstances. Neither Lambda or Bern are inherently good or evil; after all, they are just metaphors of (meta)physical forces.

Now, gods like Lambda and Bern are only influential in so far as they and their power is believed in. Lambda's death symbolized a destruction of the belief that persistent effort would certainly yield success, and Battler beating Bern represented a rejection of her power to control his fate. It's basically a matter of willpower; Bern tried to make everything go wrong for Battler's real world goals, but he just refused to let that discourage him.

Of course these ideas are highly abstract. I probably didn't explain my thoughts in a way that's very easy to understand...

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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I want to clear something up about Photographic memory. I think some of us on here are treating that as some kind of video recorder in Erika's head that records every single waking second and that she can play this back at will and check instantly. Eidetic memory doesn't work that way. In particular:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidetic_memory
This is an enlightening lesson, but I think it doesn't matter because Erika is flamboyantly unrealistic; even if RK07 knew better, wouldn't her abilities still be the Hollywood versions anyway?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Funny enough saying there was no objective viewpoint in all EP 5 can also mean that Erika was also something that was made up and that she actually was never witnessed by anyone in Rokenjima...
LOL, poor Erika, I've just denied her existence...

... and weren't there theories that assumed Erika never existed in Rokkenjima?
Someone willing to refresh my memory?
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
However, I think that a few Reds can deny this. Namely,
I got one: Furudo Erika only increases it (the person count) by one person.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Grr, I hate not having internet access. Everyone decides to become chatty, chatty essayists while I'm gone. XD

As I've said before, this issue is just a sore spot for me. Noone's disproved my "Kanon has a body theory" (which in my mind explains everything, is still thematically fitting, and is rather simple to understand), and I doubt anyone can convince me otherwise. Or at least, I haven't heard any real counter.
Your theory is based on the idea that Kanon always counts as a person, even when he has no body. But then how can the answer to the number of people on the island including Erika be 17? Wouldn't it be 18?

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I can only think of the EP3 chained locked room where it was because Shkannon had two master keys... Hm...
How is ShKanon needed for that? As far as I can tell ShKanon was never needed until EP6. The closest was the death of Nanjo in EP3, but even that still had the dying Kyrie theory.

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
That's what I'm confused about. Beatrice seems to be saying that there cannot be more than 17 humans in all games, and yet, Erika says that she is the 18th human. It's so confusing.

...Well, Erika!Ball gets around this, but. >_>; Then again, I guess Erika!Ball gets around everything.
I thought the Reds at the beginning of EP5 about Erika made it clear that she was an exception who actually increased this maximum by 1.
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Old 2012-01-23, 03:24   Link #27255
Drifloon
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Your theory is based on the idea that Kanon always counts as a person, even when he has no body. But then how can the answer to the number of people on the island including Erika be 17? Wouldn't it be 18?
I know this isn't addressed to me, but I think that the word 'people' can be interpreted in several ways and neither is objectively invalid. You can say that there are '17 people' and it's true because there are 17 physical human beings on the island. But you can also say there are '18 people' because there are 18 personalities on the island. It depends on your interpretation - neither can be said to be wrong. Both are completely true and both can be said with the red truth.

In other words, there can be 17 people and 18 people on the island simultaneously.
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Old 2012-01-23, 06:32   Link #27256
Toku
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
That scene bothered me for a similar reason when I read it the first time. When I read it the next time I was seeing Lambda and Bern as metaphors for metaphysical forces, gods, if you will. "Praying" to Bern is hoping things outside your control will go your way, while "praying" to Lambda is believing your efforts will be rewarded.

Meanwhile, the conflicts and alliances seen in the Meta-World are metaphors for things happening in the real world. Lambda and Bern, doing what they do, mean different things to different people in different situations. In this way they can play various roles (ally, villain etc.) in various circumstances. Neither Lambda or Bern are inherently good or evil; after all, they are just metaphors of (meta)physical forces.

Now, gods like Lambda and Bern are only influential in so far as they and their power is believed in. Lambda's death symbolized a destruction of the belief that persistent effort would certainly yield success, and Battler beating Bern represented a rejection of her power to control his fate. It's basically a matter of willpower; Bern tried to make everything go wrong for Battler's real world goals, but he just refused to let that discourage him.

Of course these ideas are highly abstract. I probably didn't explain my thoughts in a way that's very easy to understand...
Interesting theory. I wouldn't have thought of it this way.

Quote:
I got one: Furudo Erika only increases it (the person count) by one person.
One person, yes. One human, not necessarily.

It seems to have been made clear that, including Erika, there are 17 people, even though Erika is somehow the "18th human."

It's easy to explain the 17 people by saying that Kanon and Shannon only count as people when they're being used. However, the number of humans is not so easy. If it really is the number of human bodies, then that would mean that there is a body without a personality, wouldn't it? And that makes no sense at all.

So if anyone has theories on this, feel free to share them.

Quote:
I thought the Reds at the beginning of EP5 about Erika made it clear that she was an exception who actually increased this maximum by 1.
This 18th person X does not exist. This applies to all games.
How can you get around that?

Actually, wait. This 18th person does not exist?? If we say that only that last sentence about the 18th person X applies to all games, then that makes things easy.

In short, even with Furudo Erika, there are (1<x<17] people in all games. That is, if "people" and "person" are defined in the same way.

But, the number of humans simply cannot exceed the number of people, because humans are not counted once they are confirmed dead. And it wouldn't make sense for a human to not possess a personality while still alive. So if Erika is the 18th human while there are 17 people, that still makes 0 sense.
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Old 2012-01-23, 10:18   Link #27257
Cao Ni Ma
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Well, I still think it has something to do with the quantum nature of the box. The way the narrator talks about Kanon during his finals scenes makes it seem like Kanon, the individual human, couldn't exist anymore after what he and Beatrice did.
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Old 2012-01-23, 10:22   Link #27258
GreyZone
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Let's assume that Ushiromya Kinzo is alive as the 17th person and there are 17 people on the gameboard. Now, when he dies, he still stays the 17th person, but the number of people becomes 16! Now if you add Erika, the number of people becomes 17 again, but the "17th spot" is already taken by the dead Kinzo and Erika becomes the so called "18th human/person"!

That way this scene from EP6 can be explained.
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Old 2012-01-23, 11:23   Link #27259
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Well, I still think it has something to do with the quantum nature of the box. The way the narrator talks about Kanon during his finals scenes makes it seem like Kanon, the individual human, couldn't exist anymore after what he and Beatrice did.
He still exists within the cat box, of course. But within the specific Fragment of EP6, it's possible that you're right. There don't seem to be any Reds that prevent it, but rather, it seems to be the fact that this particular game was put on hold indefinitely when Kanon was not in use (and there is a Red which prevents him from being in use as long as Piece!Yasuda is within the guest room). Therefore, unless the game was resumed, Kanon would not be able to exist again.

And at any rate, since the body of Piece!Yasuda still remains on the game board and is (probably) treated as being alive, I think it amounts to the same thing...

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Let's assume that Ushiromya Kinzo is alive as the 17th person and there are 17 people on the gameboard. Now, when he dies, he still stays the 17th person, but the number of people becomes 16! Now if you add Erika, the number of people becomes 17 again, but the "17th spot" is already taken by the dead Kinzo and Erika becomes the so called "18th human/person"!

That way this scene from EP6 can be explained.
True, if you add in a dead person, it can be explained. I was trying to avoid doing this because Beatrice always made sure not to count dead people in the totals, but now that I think about it, I'm not sure that any of the later Game Masters were ever that thorough.

So, this does seem like the most logical theory.
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Old 2012-01-23, 13:03   Link #27260
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Fantasy can visibly exist on the gameboard until it is denied by anti-magic toxin. Most obviously magical things like demons and golden butterflies would be easily denied in front of Erika and immediately cease to exist from that point forward. The subtler fantasy of Shannon and Kanon existing together is able to stand as it doesn't obviously look like a fantasy. Until the trick is exposed, they are both able to visibly exist together.

And the reason for not showing Shannon and Kanon together in front of Battler is either because he has Endless Nine that destroys even subtler fantasies, or that it was used in EP5 as a thing Beatrice could but wouldn't do, as she wanted to leave a hint to Battler.
Assuming this is correct, I fear it makes no real sense and is completely unfair to Erika and completely mischaracterizes Battler.

Battler is less observant than Erika, and more trusting of Kanon's existence. That Kanon exists is never even questioned by Battler and he goes to great lengths to speculate as to where Kanon's body may have gone and does not even begin to conclude that Kanon doesn't have one. To bring in Battler's "endless magic resistance" does not even begin to address this issue. If Meta-Battler were shown a scene in which Battler saw Kanon and Shannon simultaneously, he absolutely would not have questioned it, for exactly the same reasons ascribed to why Erika would not have. Yet Beatrice didn't do that. Now it's possible that she didn't do it because she simply chose not to, but if that's so, does that mean that she actually could have, and it would have been fine had Battler not questioned it? I don't believe so, personally.

I base this on Ryukishi's own interviews. For example, he suggested that had Battler's ep1 groping gone off without a hitch, he would have discovered the secret of Shannon's chest. But does that mean that Shannon's breasts are real until Battler discovers otherwise? How is that fair? How is that workable? If Kinzo can be alive until someone realizes he isn't, does that mean he actually was the culprit alongside Beatrice in ep4? What stops that from happening, so long as Meta-Battler can't observe and conclude otherwise? Why go to the trouble of hiding Kinzo at all? If Kinzo murders everyone and then Battler determines Kinzo was dead from the start, is that a Logic Error? We know fantasy scenes can be destroyed without forcing such to happen, but even if there is an alternate explanation who was actually the killer before the Kinzo-killer fantasy was dispelled, Kinzo or the "alternative" suspect?

If the whole point is "it's because Beatrice wanted to show him something and thus refused to use certain tricks," then I have to question what the point would be of Lambdadelta intentionally employing those certain tricks for no apparent reason. She is playing against Bern (and later Erika). She has no reason to believe or know that Battler will come by at some point and review the game. She has no reason to know or believe that Battler will or won't find the truth based on anything she shows in her game, least of all based upon the parlor scene. Therefore, she must have constructed that conundrum for Bernkastel. Why, exactly? Shkanon is basically not actually useful to her game (it's certainly not necessary, at least for the First Twilight). If her goal was simply to deliberately deceive Bern with a falsehood bluff in hopes Bern wouldn't realize to call her on it, what does that say about the whole issue with Erika's own perspective? Sure, showing it like that could have fooled Bern... but it shouldn't have fooled her piece, which is the crux of the whole problem. If it didn't fool the piece, but Bern and Meta-Erika never had any access to the piece's knowledge, it's functionally the same thing as fooling the piece.

Furthermore, we have almost no earthly idea what Battler actually realized to attain the capital-T Truth, which he apparently did. It was a vague epiphany, which by its very nature makes it difficult to deduce what he did or didn't think about. If any information from ep5's game itself was relevant to his discovery, we aren't entirely sure what that information was. It's entirely possible "Shannon and Kanon were shown in the room at the same time" wasn't even relevant compared to "Oh hey, faked deaths and hmm maybe Shkanon?" or any other information he might have reflected upon from Beatrice's games.
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Photographic memory is useful only if you look around. In a room where people are moving around and where she's staring at the cousins, talking with them in the moment where it's declared everyone is there, she didn't have a full visual of the room, nor she bothered to get one so it was easy to place Kanon or Shannon or both behind her without her caring she hadn't seen them both at the same time or that she might not have seen one of them enter in the room.
Eidetic memory is eidetic memory; Erika remembers everything she would have seen, and she would have been looking at these people because this is her opportunity to be introduced to the cast of suspects for the "mystery story" that's already being plotted out in her head. At best, she would fail to remember ever seeing one of Shannon or Kanon being present, unless they switched off. But then Lambda's statement is deliberately lying. It's not misleading; it's an outright lie. She's putting them both there and asserting (in so many words) that they are both present. That's a lie under even the most generous of circumstances. If it's a bald lie to deceive Bern (and thus, was not intended to mislead Battler), it runs into the Erika problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
The trick is that "Kanon was being anti-social." Since his role in the entire thing was extremely minimal, it was possible to find room for him to exist in the Parlor during this scene. Was he actually there? There's theories which allow him to be, like Keriaku's, but who really knows.
But this doesn't actually address the problem, as I've repeatedly said. It's a dodge.
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Erika is already targeting Natsuhi so she's not paying Shannon and Kanon any attention.
This is basically Erika's introduction; at this point she has no reason to specifically single out anyone as the culprit yet as the crime hasn't even been committed. What if Natsuhi is the one who ends up "dead?" She can't frame her then. There's no way Erika could be tunnel visioning on Natsuhi at this point in the story. She knows there's a setup that's perfect for a murder. Until it actually happens, she can't possibly already know the suspect. Especially when she hasn't even met all the potential suspects until that exact moment.

Look, you guys are all missing the very basic logic of this. There can only be the following permutations of the scene ("Meta-Erika" is synonymous here with "Meta-Erika and Bern"):
  • Kanon and Shannon were both there, Erika saw them, Meta-Erika knows this.
  • Kanon and Shannon were both there, Erika saw them, Meta-Erika doesn't know this.
  • Kanon and Shannon were both there, Erika didn't see them, Meta-Erika knows this.
  • Kanon and Shannon were both there, Erika didn't see them, Meta-Erika doesn't know this.
  • Kanon and Shannon may have been there (at different times or the same time), Erika saw them, Meta-Erika knows this.
  • Kanon and Shannon may have been there (at different times or the same time), Erika saw them, Meta-Erika doesn't know this.
  • Kanon and Shannon may have been there (at different times or the same time), Erika didn't see them, Meta-Erika knows this.
  • Kanon and Shannon may have been there (at different times or the same time), Erika didn't see them, Meta-Erika doesn't know this.
  • Kanon and Shannon were not both present, Erika never observed one of them, Meta-Erika knows this.
  • Kanon and Shannon were not both present, Erika never observed one of them, Meta-Erika doesn't know this.
  • Kanon and Shannon were not both present, Erika never observed either of them, Meta-Erika knows this.
  • Kanon and Shannon were not both present, Erika never observed either of them, Meta-Erika doesn't know this.
  • Kanon and Shannon were not both present, Erika observed both of them anyway, Meta-Erika knows this.
  • Kanon and Shannon were not both present, Erika observed both of them anyway, Meta-Erika doesn't know this.
Of these, any in which Meta-Erika isn't aware of what Piece-Erika observed are functionally equivalent. Piece-Erika may as well have observed nothing at all, and the scene is presented as-is, because her observations are entirely without merit or meaning since they're completely inaccessible by the players. That cuts our list down to:
  • Kanon and Shannon were both there, Erika saw them.
  • Kanon and Shannon were both there, Erika didn't see them.
  • Kanon and Shannon may have been there (at different times or the same time), Erika saw them.
  • Kanon and Shannon may have been there (at different times or the same time), Erika didn't see them.
  • Kanon and Shannon were not both present, Erika never observed one of them.
  • Kanon and Shannon were not both present, Erika never observed either of them.
  • Kanon and Shannon were not both present, Erika observed both of them anyway.
We can discard several of these because they're inconsistent or redundant. If Shannon and Kanon were definitively both there but Erika didn't observe them, it's equivalent to the idea that they "may" have been there but Erika didn't see one or both of them. Both are a disconnect from the scene as depicted. Likewise if Kanon and Shannon were switching off, but Erika never observed one of them, it doesn't matter that they were as in her observation she never saw the switch-off to begin with. Remainder is:
  • Kanon and Shannon were both there, Erika saw them.
  • Kanon and Shannon may have been there (at different times or the same time), Erika saw them.
  • Kanon and Shannon were not both present, Erika never observed one of them.
  • Kanon and Shannon were not both present, Erika never observed either of them.
  • Kanon and Shannon were not both present, Erika observed both of them anyway.
Of these that remain, and assuming Meta-Erika/Bern are aware of what Piece-Erika saw, the following would either be deliberate lies on Lambda's part or a sign that Shannon and Kanon are separate in End:
  • Kanon and Shannon were both there, Erika saw them.
  • Kanon and Shannon were not both present, Erika never observed either of them.
  • Kanon and Shannon were not both present, Erika observed both of them anyway.
If Kanon and Shannon are both there and Erika saw them both, and Bern/Meta-Erika were aware of this, they should all believe Shkanon is false. This is consistent with their later behavior, yet it's also not merely a deception, but an outright falsehood. Lambda lied. Why didn't Bern ever call foul after ep6? Lambda lied outright about a completely irrelevant detail that seemed to be evidence of something that wasn't the case in other games. And if Kanon didn't have a body in ep5, this constitutes a fatal Logic Error. What gives?

If Kanon and Shannon weren't there, and Erika didn't see either, then obviously Bern and Meta-Erika should be calling foul right away, as Lambda is showing them two servants who weren't there and then claiming that everyone on the island is present. They don't.

And if Kanon and Shannon weren't there, but Erika observed the two of them anyway, that means the facts comport neither with Erika's own observations as a piece nor with the scene as Lambda portrayed it. In short, it'd be a double-layered cheating sandwich, with Piece-Erika as the meat.

Which leaves two more.

"Kanon and Shannon were switching off and Erika saw both" means the scene was a lie but it was a semi-plausible lie to the memory of Piece-Erika, who observed at different times Shannon and Kanon being present and thus sees no issues with the scene as presented since her own memory didn't let her see what Battler would have seen from his perspective, but it "sounds right." The red is not a lie, because all human persons were present in the room when Lambda proclaimed it, even though Kanon (or Shannon) actually wasn't visibly present. The problem with this is it's really just "Kanon was standing behind Gohda" evolved. It's not really any more satisfactory an explanation, just one that can be explained without suggesting Erika's piece was deceived.

"Kanon and Shannon weren't both there but Erika just didn't see one of them" means Lambda was filling in a detail which was either a deliberate lie on Narrator-Battler's part or an intentional embellishment on her own part. If Erika can't remember seeing Kanon, but "buys it" because the scene put him there, that's an indicator that she's basically stupid and lazy. This is especially true carrying forward to ep6 where Shkanon actually means something. And if Battler's narration is lying, he's doing so for absolutely no reason. Stupid, lazy detectives and narrators telling lies for no reason are hallmarks of incredibly poor writing, and it's going to trip up the reader quite badly.

Neither of these really satisfies me, but neither do any of the other permutations I addressed. But the point is, looking at the scene, the following things must be answered:
  • Who was actually present, and when?
  • Who did Erika see, and did she see them at the same time?
  • How much of what Erika saw is accessible to Bernkastel and Meta-Erika, if anything?
  • Is Lambda allowed, as a GM, to advance this falsehood right in front of Erika's face? Was Beatrice allowed to do the same to Battler? What happens if they catch on?
  • Why did Lambda bother with this in the first place?
  • Did Battler have any reason to lie about what he saw, or was Lambda just making him lie?
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