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Old 2012-01-21, 11:19   Link #4041
Terminator98
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I know about the Harem thingie, I was just pointing out an alternative "Tenchi" way.
I do enjoy the grimdark nature of HF's, but I"m still a Rin and Saber fanboy who vehemently denies that Shirou would discard his ideals to save Sakura (even if he did, I'm just that obstinate).

Plus, I like lolis! (But buxom is fine too. After all, if they can bring hope and dreams...)

Also, why do I think that Archer Alter would be AWESOME OPness incarnate? enough mana to trace and spam pretty much whatever he desires? (Gilgamesh Alter is impossible as we know due to his ehm... 'nature', so I think the most awesome of all HS would be the one who has access to shtloads of Noble Phantasms while being... GAR indeed.

(More thinking after dwelving on some stuff).
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Old 2012-01-22, 18:55   Link #4042
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Terminator98 View Post
I do enjoy the grimdark nature of HF's, but I"m still a Rin and Saber fanboy who vehemently denies that Shirou would discard his ideals to save Sakura (even if he did, I'm just that obstinate).
The alternative was him discarding his ideals and murdering an innocent girl in cold blood, though.
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Old 2012-01-22, 19:25   Link #4043
chaos_alfa
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The alternative was him discarding his ideals and murdering an innocent girl in cold blood, though.
it has been sometime since I read that part, but how would Shirou discard his ideals if he let Rin kill Sakura?
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Old 2012-01-22, 20:39   Link #4044
LostHanyou
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If he wants to 'prevent the people close to him from crying', or make them happy in other words, killing someone he loves would PROBABLY count as discarding his ideals. He doesn't want to save everyone - he already realizes that it's impossible to do so, and even denies the chance to save the orphans in the Fate route.

He's not Kiritsugu, after all.
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Old 2012-01-22, 20:40   Link #4045
Terminator98
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I'd call it more like fully embracing Kiritsugu's personality. His ideals in Fate and UBW are rather different from Kiristugu's, in the fact thta he calls sacrifice rather bu**sh**, and wants to save everyone (and thus do the impossible). He's still largely clinging to that idea, although knowing that it's impossible. (That's what drove Counter Guardian EMIYA insane after all)

The road he adopts in mind of steel has him become much more Kiritsugu alike where he makes compromises.
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Old 2012-01-23, 17:39   Link #4046
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it has been sometime since I read that part, but how would Shirou discard his ideals if he let Rin kill Sakura?
Because his ideal is to save people, and killing an innocent girl in cold blood goes explicitly against that.

Note that he avoids killing people like Shinji and Ilya who were just as dangerous as Sakura (to his knowledge, anyway) and had far more intent.

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I'd call it more like fully embracing Kiritsugu's personality. His ideals in Fate and UBW are rather different from Kiristugu's, in the fact thta he calls sacrifice rather bu**sh**, and wants to save everyone (and thus do the impossible). He's still largely clinging to that idea, although knowing that it's impossible. (That's what drove Counter Guardian EMIYA insane after all)

The road he adopts in mind of steel has him become much more Kiritsugu alike where he makes compromises.
Exactly. His ideal is to save everyone. In compromising that, he therefore discards his ideal.
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Old 2012-01-23, 22:09   Link #4047
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Note that he avoids killing people like Shinji and Ilya who were just as dangerous as Sakura (to his knowledge, anyway) and had far more intent.

Exactly. His ideal is to save everyone. In compromising that, he therefore discards his ideal.
Though to be fair, he had no problem killing Kotomine.
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Old 2012-01-23, 22:17   Link #4048
DragoZERO
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Though to be fair, he had no problem killing Kotomine.
But he never liked Kotomine. It's easier when you don't like the person, hah.
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Old 2012-01-24, 02:14   Link #4049
mAc Chaos
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Though to be fair, he had no problem killing Kotomine.
Hey, I never thought of that. Even in the Fate route.
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Old 2012-01-24, 06:51   Link #4050
Terminator98
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No. The problem is that he LIKES HIM! That's why he kills him. Shirou is in truth a Yandere that will end up killing those he loves! I bet that if Kotomine did an anguished declaration of love to him... he'd have spared him.

Ok, coming back to a more serious discussion, in the Fate route, this is probably due to the fact that Kotomine had near zero redeeming features in him from Shirou's current PoV.

Shinji was a jerk, but he had somewhat befriended him before. Which is why even though he had no second thought about killing him at the school, he tried not to. (Here, a bit of Kiristugu's idea came back)

Illya was a small little girl... and the time they spent together kinda warmed his heart. Plus we have to admit that Shirou is definitely a lolicon.
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Old 2012-01-24, 15:57   Link #4051
mAc Chaos
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There was no way for him to defeat Kotomine without killing him is the problem. If he could have beaten him and left him live he probably would have, but Kotomine was too strong to go easy against him.
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Old 2012-01-24, 16:04   Link #4052
Terminator98
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Well that to. If Shirou had mucked around, and Kotomine started acting rather than chewing the scenery... well, we can just say that Shirou would've eaten a few Black Keys to the guts...
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Old 2012-01-26, 04:39   Link #4053
Cherry_Lover
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Though to be fair, he had no problem killing Kotomine.
Kotomine is directly acting to destroy the world through his own free will. Sakura was not....

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There was no way for him to defeat Kotomine without killing him is the problem. If he could have beaten him and left him live he probably would have, but Kotomine was too strong to go easy against him.
Exactly. He had to stop Kotomine, because he was in the process of attempting to destroy the world (and kill Ilya in the process...), and he couldn't risk not going all-out because Kotomine was too strong. Sakura was different because he had an alternative, and also because she didn't really choose to become what she became.
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Old 2012-01-26, 12:42   Link #4054
mAc Chaos
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Well, neither did Kotomine.
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Old 2012-01-26, 13:11   Link #4055
Haak
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Thats far more ambiguous really. If you look at it that way then there's no such thing as free will. The philosophy of Determinism has always been something Nasu rejects in almost every one of his stories

Besides it's not like Shirou ever managed to fully find out Kotomine's backstory. Fortunately there's no Kotomine route.
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Old 2012-01-26, 15:54   Link #4056
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Though to be fair, he had no problem killing Kotomine.
Interesting idea. Shirou's ideal explicitly is saving everybody. Kotomine is somebody, thus part of everybody. By killing somebody, he cannot save everybody anymore. Thus, he has effectively betrayed his ideal.
But so long as he doesn't realize what he has done, so long as he isn't aware of the fact, it doesn't matter - he can maintain his ideal while betraying it.
And as DragoZero said, he arranges his ideology around his emotional inclinations.

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The philosophy of Determinism has always been something Nasu rejects in almost every one of his stories
That's funny considering the name of the merchandise ...
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Old 2012-01-26, 16:22   Link #4057
Haak
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I too noticed the irony. XP

I don't it was intentional or anything, though. The name doesn't really make sense as far as I'm aware of.
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Old 2012-01-26, 17:14   Link #4058
mAc Chaos
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I dunno, I always felt like people being fated to act a certain way always played a big part with the Fate villains.

Kotomine was born basically evil. That's why he identifies with the Grail. He wants to know why someone like him would be allowed to exist (by God). He actually TRIES to fight it and be good, but in the end he gives up and surrenders to his nature.

Sakura gets so warped that she's basically just acting out her madness.

Ilya is raised to basically be a mindless killer.

Even Shirou himself basically confirms that he's just a mirror image of Kotomine, which is why Kotomine rubs him the wrong way. He basically sees that if things turned out just a little different, he could have become like him. He has no sense of self or purpose; he only gets enjoyment from pleasing others, just like Kotomine gets pleasure from hurting others.

That's not necessarily determinism though since they still had to choose to act on their inclinations, and in cases like Shirou and Kotomine they were fully aware of what their actions meant.
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Old 2012-01-26, 19:05   Link #4059
Cherry_Lover
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The difference is that Sakura is only like that temporarily. With Kotomine, it's permanent.
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Old 2012-01-26, 22:26   Link #4060
mAc Chaos
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Well, it doesn't really matter for the time span when she's doing all those evil things.

I always wondered what Kotomine would've seen if he accomplished his goal and if it would've resulted in some sort of revelation for him.
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