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Old 2012-01-23, 20:32   Link #27281
jjblue1
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So many messages to reply...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
-stuffs
Spoiler for Lenght:


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
That game begins with Battler calling Jessica on the phone some time before the conference, for no apparent reason, and we don't get to see what they talk about. Frankly, he probably was compromised from the outset.
Oh, that phonecall! I've always wondered what it was for!
This could be a good explanation!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I think that of the murder mystery part of the episodes, the solution wasn't always Shkannon, until the end of EP6, where even Meta-Battler goes, "Are you sure? The human side would be screaming at that being so unfair." Which it was, but if you go back through EP1-4, was Shkannon ever necessary for all the particulars of the murder mysteries? I can only think of the EP3 chained locked room where it was because Shkannon had two master keys... Hm...

In general though, Shkannon seems to form the answer only for the Greater Mystery, which is non-detective in nature, I think. It's that other 'Mystery' genre I was talking about, although this one doesn't seem supernatural in flavour.
I'm not 100% sure but in this interview it was said:

Spoiler for Part of an interview to Ryukishi:


My guess is that said content is the ShKannon part, that it was removed from EP 3, that happens in EP 5 but Battler and Erika ignore it in Ep 5 (where Erika or meta!Battler never noticed Shannon and Kanon are the same person) and that's the 'unfair trick' used in EP 6.

Now, it can be that Land would have played it better and would have anticipated the problem, however, the fact Ryukishi postponed the problem caused it to lose impact.

Spoiler for Replies to Toku cuts due to lenght:


Spoiler for Replies to Wanderer cuts due to lenght:
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Old 2012-01-23, 20:50   Link #27282
Toku
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I'd just like to say that I apologize for my previous post (it's deleted now). Please disregard that. Sometimes I don't function well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
And this brings us back to the same fundamental problem with Kealym's theory: Why were Lambda and Bern so cryptic and roundabout in showing the number of people on the island to be 18 when they didn't have to be (according to you, they could just out and say there are 18 people)? Why go out of their way to make extra room for Erika to suspect that the number is not 18?
The larger the amount of uncertainty surrounding the GM's mystery, the harder it is for the Player to find the Truth.

Quote:
You're reinventing a non-existent problem. The conversation (a mix of red and white text) at the introduction of Erika in EP5 makes it clear that she's an exception, a "bonus" character. RK07 also probably hadn't planned on Erika when he released EP4.
I was just sorting through it in my head, but you're probably right.

Quote:
But if you really want to dodge the Red, there are still two ways you can do it that I can think of. First, Erika is not a "person X"; she's not some mysterious factor working behind the scenes since Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now. Or, second, you simply say that This applies to all games!!! only means games up to that point.
I'd thought of the second one, but I didn't particularly like it. On the other hand, the first is quite interesting. I think I'll use that.

Quote:
I think so too. Kanon still existed as a human on the meta-level up until the ShKanon trick in EP6 made his existence impossible (as opposed to existing as a human on the gameboard-level; after EP6 it was decided he never had existence there in the first place). This is how Erika's "18" was true when she said it, because it was spoken in the context of the Meta-World and Kanon was still (barely) meta-alive until Battler and Beatrice saying "17" finished meta-killing him off.

Poor Kanon.
How does that trick make his existence impossible? It only means that, since the game board has been paused with Piece!Yasuda in the guest room of the Logic Error, and Kanon does not exist in the guest room at the present moment, you would need to resume the game to allow him to exist on the game board again.

The "17" doesn't kill him off either, even on the game board. After all, since Kanon does not exist in the guest room, we can conclude that Piece!Yasuda is currently Shannon, and only personas that are in use count as "people" at any given moment. In this case, if they were to resume the game, Piece!Yasuda could switch to Kanon in the very next instant, and there would still be 17 people.

Well, if the "18" was spoken in the context of the Meta-World, that makes sense too. I hadn't thought of that.

Quote:
You know, it's interesting because Bern supplied an unearned Red to Erika during the trial: at 24:00, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were in a corridor on the second floor of the mansion. All the remaining people were at the family conference in the dining hall. Of course, at that point in time, no murder had occurred. Genji was also alive. Lambdadelta said it was something that Erika did not observe but then she acknowledged it anyway because otherwise the game couldn't move forward.

Again Bern said later... Of all the people in the dining hall, not one of them left the dining hall until 1:00 AM...! Beatrice complained that Erika did not observe it (which she didn't; she was in the guest house), but Bern responded: The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counter-argument!!

And it happened yet again: When Genji finished transferring the call, he immediately returned to the waiting room. Erika did not observe this either.

So, hmm? Did Bern just assume right? Or did she know these things without Erika observing them? Or is she just making shit up and Lambda is letting her do it?
I hadn't thought much of this then, but it's true that Bern should not, under normal circumstances, be able to view the inner logic of Lambda's game. And neither of the Pieces she was controlling observed these things. Which means that, if she was just assuming, she would be risking humiliation if she accidentally tried to lie in Red. In addition, while it is possible that Bern was able to see all of the story Lambda was telling (what we saw) from the Meta-World, the Fantasy and Mystery sides of the story might have been different enough that she would have accidentally ended up trying to lie in Red. And I'm sure she would realize this possibility... At any rate, doing something like this seems completely out of character for her, so a "she didn't actually know" theory is unacceptable in my opinion.

I think she probably did know. And unless I assume that she was willing to risk humiliation in multiple instances, I would have to assume that she really was cooperating with Lambda.

Quote:
Except this exact thing happened when Battler met Kinzo on the way to the gold and the fact ended up a major plot point to prove that Battler's narration was unreliable.

Actually, I checked the scene again. It's kind of obvious that it wasn't Kinzo who showed Battler the way; he already knew it. Battler didn't solve the epitaph; he already knew all about it and just pretended to solve it. 8)

So anyway the question is not if Battler narrates lies in EP5, but how and why. And obviously the how and why have to be explained in meta terms since, as you say, people don't lie to themselves in their minds. The "how" I think has to do with the concept of the "Reader", the "why" I think has to do with fooling Erika and putting Battler on the right track. Lambda, and even Bern, might not actually be on Erika's side or be Battler's enemy, at least in EP5.
The Fantasy side seems to be quite close to the Meta World. In EP1-4, many Fantasy side characters, like Kinzo and Beatrice, clearly had access to knowledge from other games, etc. So we can conclude that it is possible to use Meta motives for Fantasy side characters.

Last edited by Toku; 2012-01-23 at 21:02.
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Old 2012-01-23, 23:04   Link #27283
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
And this brings us back to the same fundamental problem with Kealym's theory: Why were Lambda and Bern so cryptic and roundabout in showing the number of people on the island to be 18 when they didn't have to be (according to you, they could just out and say there are 18 people)? Why go out of their way to make extra room for Erika to suspect that the number is not 18?
Alot to reply to. Thanks for the response to my theory about Kanon's body - I did wanna talk about it a little, so I could possibly restate in a more obvious way, so I'll just respond to Wanderer's post, here.

Basically, objections to my theory concern the EP4 Reds about person limits, and the troll-ish nature of Lambda just arbitrarily changing the rules of the game for no reason.

To try and clarify a few things with my theory, it's my belief that :

(1) Kanon's personhood over other similar beings (Imaginary-Kinzo, Beatrice, Ronove, etc.), is an arbitrary distinction made by her, the author, because Kanon's personhood is very, very important to her.

(2) The GM, however, has the right to present any scenario they wanted as true. I would say, in Prime, it's limited only by what a reader may or may not find plausible. For example, I can write a story wherein there happens to be no duct tape on Rokkenjima, and people will swallow it easily (...probably ), even if duct tape were present in prior forgeries. However, people would call foul if I increased the human count by 2, on account of Kyrie's surprise ninja-clones.

(2A) So, what? "I wrote a story where Kanon has his own body." Is that a problem? Are you gonna stop me from writing it? No. You'll either have not noticed Shkanon in prior forgeries, and swallow it (a douchey move on my part, if I intend the prior solution to still be viable), or you WILL have noticed SHkanon already, and say I'm a horrible author / fanfic troll on the internet whose plot has "no love".

I'll try my hand at a sloppy chess metaphor, too - in my head, it's something like, "Shkanon is the standard rule, like a normal chess setup. In EP5, I exchanged one of my pawns for a spare knight piece, and my opponent either was too dim to notice, or maybe they noticed and grumbled "grr, that's not how you play the game..." but played anyways because their victory was still entirely possible.

...I've already admitted that this makes EP5 Lambda and EP6 Battler unbelievably troll-tastic, especially in regards to Erika's ability to solve the logic error - she went into her second game thinking my three knights was the normal setup, even though I was back to only using two. And my check was absolutely hinged on me having the typical amount of available pawns, somehow.

Or something like that.

Last edited by Kealym; 2012-01-23 at 23:09. Reason: detail
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Old 2012-01-24, 00:37   Link #27284
Wanderer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I don't like the idea Bern could 'have access to extra tips about the game', not without Lambda's permission.
It's possible thought this red was given by Lambda the first time the game was played and Bern is merely reporting it.
By Lambda's response to my first example, this seems doubtful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
You know, the idea that Battler was told the solution of the epitaph beforehand is rather interesting.
Yeah, add his participation in the fake murders and the phone call that Lyrical pointed out and we have the framework to an interesting narrative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
The larger the amount of uncertainty surrounding the GM's mystery, the harder it is for the Player to find the Truth.
Yeah, except making the Player certain of something that's wrong should be even better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
Well, if the "18" was spoken in the context of the Meta-World, that makes sense too. I hadn't thought of that.
Yeah that's what I mean. As soon as Erika's stumped she... introduces herself? I think those last two Reds between Erika and B&B are meta-context Reds, not gameboard-context Reds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I hadn't thought much of this then, but it's true that Bern should not, under normal circumstances, be able to view the inner logic of Lambda's game. And neither of the Pieces she was controlling observed these things. Which means that, if she was just assuming, she would be risking humiliation if she accidentally tried to lie in Red. In addition, while it is possible that Bern was able to see all of the story Lambda was telling (what we saw) from the Meta-World, the Fantasy and Mystery sides of the story might have been different enough that she would have accidentally ended up trying to lie in Red. And I'm sure she would realize this possibility... At any rate, doing something like this seems completely out of character for her, so a "she didn't actually know" theory is unacceptable in my opinion.

I think she probably did know. And unless I assume that she was willing to risk humiliation in multiple instances, I would have to assume that she really was cooperating with Lambda.
Possible, but I actually lean towards the third option, that she was just making shit up in Red. It fits with Erika's retroactive murdering in EP6. They're basically just filling in the blanks in the narrative on the spot. Erika can do so with her piece's actions, Bern, being a witch, can do it with anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
~~~~
Maybe you misunderstand my criticism. If Kanon counts as a separate person, why was it:
  • "Besides Erika, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games."
  • "In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island."
  • *shows a narration by Battler where he accounts for every person in the parlor, one by one, specifically to demonstrate the number of people in the room*
  • "Ah I see, so there are 18 people."
Instead of:
  • With the addition of Erika there are 18 people on the island.
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Old 2012-01-24, 01:40   Link #27285
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
On the Mystery side, what we have is just Natsuhi, sitting alone on a bench. She is not pretending to have a conversation with anyone. But on the Fantasy side, she is chatting with the Witch.
On both sides of the story, she is certainly trying to cope with the trauma of recent family troubles. This is the important thing. Even if you are shown a blatant falsehood, it is not inherently a waste of time.
Even so, if you figure out what is happening on the Mystery side, the Fantasy will disappear.
Which Bernkastel blew away with a red without hesitation. 8) By the way, I figured that Natsuhi was planning her moves by herself, which can be interpreted as discussing things with the witch (or that she often discussed things with Beatrice). The thing that seems to me about the fantasy interpretation is that it can't really swing too wildly away from the truth, or it will suffer the fate of uselessness. Imagine instead of chatting with the Witch she was floating along in a Marry Poppins scene which had absolutely nothing to do with Umineko. It would kind of be a waste of the scene.

Actually, I think what this really means is that the authors wouldn't waste a paragraph of text on useless fantasy stuff unless it was trying to serve a purpose. Neither Yasu nor Tooya... and by extension, Ryukishi, when he can help it. Which I can understand when he and his character Tooya are disheartened at the idea that people would ignore everything but the red text. And so Featherine/Ikuko thanked... Ange was it? ... for reading the white text too. 8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But the fantasy still basically disappears. He's not making any positive ground, but by engaging in his capacity for denial he basically nullified the existence of that scene. Granted, Beatrice "cleaned it up" as usual too, but it was portrayed less as "Yeah but you can't prove it didn't" and more as "Maybe so, but don't think you're going to win the game just denying everything."
Sorry, I didn't have much time to read or write with my phone, so I could only respond to that narrow bit of of your message. 8) But yeah, further to what I think you are saying, later on, at the end of EP4 it seemed like he was doing much better even if he wasn't hitting the actual truth. He was able to come up with theories that fit the scenario even if they weren't the truth. (Like the theory of the chained locked rooms in EP3 being not locked if simply the murderer was the one to 'find' the key.) Beatrice let them stand and in that way be pierced by Battler's blue truth.

Which makes me think that the theme here is once again the idea that 'personal truth that remains uncontested becomes truth' even it it's not correct. But either way, he came up with a mystery solution and that denied the fantasy; the fantasy disappears.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
My guess is that said content is the ShKannon part, that it was removed from EP 3, that happens in EP 5 but Battler and Erika ignore it in Ep 5 (where Erika or meta!Battler never noticed Shannon and Kanon are the same person) and that's the 'unfair trick' used in EP 6.

Now, it can be that Land would have played it better and would have anticipated the problem, however, the fact Ryukishi postponed the problem caused it to lose impact.
These were my thoughts exactly, once I had that Yasu theory. Because I'm not really seeing any other major theories left to discover. 8)

As for the whole thing, I remember when reading that part that the beginning of EP5 was ultra suspicious for me. Basically when Lambdadelta couldn't name the exact number of people and danced around the true number was when I started developing the Author Theory. (Or rather the thing that made it not useless.) When she couldn't say it, I was ready for there to be 16 people on the island, not including Erika and so the end of EP6 ended up being a validation of sorts rather than a total surprise. But it was still fun to read that... 8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Actually, I checked the scene again. It's kind of obvious that it wasn't Kinzo who showed Battler the way; he already knew it. Battler didn't solve the epitaph; he already knew all about it and just pretended to solve it. 8)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
You know, the idea that Battler was told the solution of the epitaph beforehand is rather interesting. It would explain why Battler couldn't solve it in the previous games while he could now (though is also possible he didn't want to think too deeply at it in front of his cousins while, now that Erika was around, he was merely enjoying the challenge... and also getting tips from the adults).
You know, about that and also I think someone mentioned Jessica phoned Battler earlier. I wonder if Jessica and George both know about the gold and the situation but both are not interested in it. Certainly if in one episode they can inform Battler so that he can take over for Beatrice then... the possibility exists in other episodes, right?

And as jjblue said, I think we've all suspected that events on the gameboard also match the events in the meta-world, not just the other way around. So, Beatrice dead in meta-world and Battler running the game means... on the gameboard, Battler is REALLY running the game. etc.
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Old 2012-01-24, 02:00   Link #27286
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Maybe you misunderstand my criticism. If Kanon counts as a separate person, why was it:
  • "Besides Erika, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games."
  • "In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island."
  • *shows a narration by Battler where he accounts for every person in the parlor, one by one, specifically to demonstrate the number of people in the room*
  • "Ah I see, so there are 18 people."
Instead of:
  • With the addition of Erika there are 18 people on the island.
Firstly, I'd say that asking me to explain why a Red Truth did not make it's point more succintly is a pretty ... volatile area of discussion. XD

To answer though, I'd say something like : "Lambda is a troll with unusual GMing habits. Maybe a semantic whim? Or Ryukishi wanted to further confuse the Shkanon issue until EP6, while still maintaining the presence of Kanon's body in EP5 as an example of a loveless forgery. Or perhaps Lambda kept Kanon's body in a state of flux until Erika observed it, forcing a decision, similar to BATTLERS dilemma with the guest room seals in EP6. We're also very used to vague and roundabout Reds, ESPECIALLY in regards to an actual body count. I believe this discrepancy to be the "dirty trick" Ryukishi alluded to."

Something like that.
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Old 2012-01-24, 12:46   Link #27287
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
By Lambda's response to my first example, this seems doubtful.
Well, Battler also had a red truth, given by Virgilia but his red truth isn't accepted (Knox's 2nd).
The same should have been true for Erika but... they conveniently ignored it (They said something about Battler needing a witch to repeat/said it... through the red was actually given to him by a witch)

This brings me to something that was said in EP 8, 'red truth is truth everyone agrees upon'.
Bern might have been saying red truths based on facts that had reached some sort of common belief, although there's no proof Erika collected to support them.
Sort of like if I were saying:
Kumasawa and Gohda didn't kill anyone in episode 4.
We've no proof to confirm this, however I think it's common belief.

If the belief changes 'a truth of the future can overwrite a truth of the past'.

... and I guess the gamemaster doesn't really need to search for people's support for his truth. As he/she writes the story we're supposed to accept what he/she says as true. Basically as soon as he says it in red it generated consensus of the goats, and conscious or unconscious consensus of the player who agreed to the red truth rule.

... though in some cases what the gamemaster wanted to be a red truth can become unbelievable because said red truth is shattered by 'something else'.

(Ange carried on the gameboard a new Sakutarou so Beato's truth that there was only one Sakutarou became unbelievable and she couldn't voice it any longer)

I guess this work to prevent the GM from making a logic error (Sakutarou can't be a unique being if there are more of him).

In the same way no one was willing to believe Natsuhi was not the culprit, unless Battler produced evidence. Maybe Virgilia would have the authority to force that truth in (a witch's red truth must be believed), though we'll never know as she disappeared.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Yeah, add his participation in the fake murders and the phone call that Lyrical pointed out and we have the framework to an interesting narrative.
Yup, very interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
You know, about that and also I think someone mentioned Jessica phoned Battler earlier. I wonder if Jessica and George both know about the gold and the situation but both are not interested in it. Certainly if in one episode they can inform Battler so that he can take over for Beatrice then... the possibility exists in other episodes, right?

And as jjblue said, I think we've all suspected that events on the gameboard also match the events in the meta-world, not just the other way around. So, Beatrice dead in meta-world and Battler running the game means... on the gameboard, Battler is REALLY running the game. etc.
Theoretically is also possible that the cousins were planning a prank faking their own deaths, Jessica suggested to make it based/inspired on the epitaph and passed the text to Battler and Battler had all the time he needed to solve part of it at home so he came to Rokkenjima with... let's say half the solution.
Shannon is informed about the prank so she works her way through it.
It's hard to believe the adults wanted to kill Krauss when they agreed to 'prank Natsuhi' but Krauss ends up dead anyway and the same is true for the others.
I'll say Yasuda tried to take control of the game which might have ended up in Battler not completely solving on his own the epitaph and therefore not having the right to stop the murders.
In Ep 5 there's also no Beatrice's letter.
As the game is between Yasuda and Battler I guess the letter is sort of a challenge to him.
However if he was already in the game there's no need to challenge him.

... though I probably need to work this out more...
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Old 2012-01-24, 16:29   Link #27288
Toku
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Now that it's reached this point, I feel that I can't continue without reading the scene in question.

So I've gone and done just that.

One thing I want to point out, is that at this point in time, Meta!Battler was busy pitching a fit over Erika's sudden involvement in the game. This is important because it helps to iron out certain characters' motivations. For example, Lambda started giving Reds on the number of people because he asked her about it. She didn't just suddenly say it for no reason at all. Also, the fact that both Bern and Lambda were handing out so many Reds in this scene, makes it clear that they were trying to ensure that he wouldn't just decide to leave. It's also another clue that the two could have been cooperating.

And I'll go ahead and say that there is a good reason for Lambda not to specifically state how many people there are on the island at any given moment.

Theoretically, the fact that Lambda didn't say there are X people on the island right now leaves open the possibility that there might be a number of people other than X. Believe it or not, this is important.

The Red Truth IS the substance of the puzzles you create and present to the Human side, you know. It's not just a method for counter-attacking. Someone who understands this will realize something along these lines:

It's advantageous for a Witch to come up with as many interpretations of their puzzle as they can. Within the bounds of the Red, all possible interpretations can and do exist. This will lead you to a number of completely different solutions to your puzzle, all of which will keep you from hitting a dreaded Logic Error. Slashing up one of these solutions with Red, is something that should only be done when you have no other choice.

You'll note that this is essentially BATTLER's big trump card in the EP5 Tea Party. He simply doesn't allow himself to be trapped by a single interpretation.

Having a good understanding of this will allow you to look at the game board from a completely different perspective. In particular, you will be able to come up with theories that, for example:

1. Do not require Yasuda to switch at all.
2. Do not require the use of Fantasy scenes to deceive the Detective.
3. Do not require a miracle to pull off.
4. Do not require Kanon to have a body.

First, let's assume that what we're shown by Battler is on the Fantasy side of the story. In other words, in that world, it's possible for Kanon and Shannon to coexist, just as it's possible for Witches to exist and use magic. But that's just a tale of White text.

So let's throw all of that away. Disregard the White text for a moment, and look at the Reds. This will allow you to see all possible interpretations of what could be happening in the Parlor on the Mystery side of the story.

Now, you'll notice that the only real restriction we have to deal with is:
In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island.

So as long as everyone is inside the Parlor at the moment that Red is spoken, we can do whatever we want. For example...

-Before and after the Red is spoken, people are free to come into and leave the room as they please.
-Any non-suspicious means of diverting Erika's attention becomes possible.
-Any non-suspicious means of obscuring one or more of Erika's senses becomes possible.

And more.

Let's take a look at that last one for a bit.

Given that the unexpected guest is a young girl, it might have been decided that a strict and formal introduction is unsuitable and would make her feel unwelcome. So they decided to play a game instead.

It's a very simple game.

In this game, Erika is the detective, and she can question people as much as she wants. Her objective is to reason out everyone's identities correctly. However, it wouldn't even be a challenge if she could look at everyone, so she puts on a blindfold.

Naturally, the premise of this game is such that Erika would instantly agree to its terms, upon being challenged. After all, more than anything else, she is the detective.

Furthermore, the very nature of the ShKanon theory allows us to see that Yasuda probably has quite a bit of skill in acting, and masking her voice.

Most importantly, this game allows Yasuda to switch between Kanon and Shannon in front of the guest, without needing to change her appearance. And we know that Yasuda has all the motivation in the world to setup a game like this. One of the things she wants most is for everyone to acknowledge her personas as people. Therefore, her objective is to trick Erika into believing that both Shannon and Kanon exist at the same time. So she's the real mastermind behind this game.

If we were able to witness this game, we might see, for example, Yasuda staging her interpretation of Eva in front of a blindfolded Erika, and doing such a good job that anyone who wasn't very well acquainted with Eva, might not be able to tell the difference. Meanwhile, Eva herself is watching, and would surely find this very entertaining.


It's a big stretch, but the important thing is that this is easily possible with human tricks and it's pretty much impossible to prove that it didn't happen. Not only that, but it's easy to find the motivations for everyone involved. And it allows the number of people on the island to be twisted as much as Lambda pleases. Additionally, this game does not call attention to Shannon and Kanon in particular, so it gives Erika no reason to believe that they aren't both in the room at the same time.

Let's look at Renall's questions:

-Who was actually present, and when?
There aren't any restrictions on this in particular according to my theory, but let's say that 17 human bodies were present the whole time, which accounts for Erika and the known 16.

-Who did Erika see, and did she see them at the same time?
She wasn't able to see Shannon and Kanon at the same time, but she has all the reason in the world to believe that both are there.

-How much of what Erika saw is accessible to Bernkastel and Meta-Erika, if anything?
They can see things from Piece!Erika's perspective, which by the way, is perfectly objective.

-Is Lambda allowed, as a GM, to advance this falsehood right in front of Erika's face? Was Beatrice allowed to do the same to Battler? What happens if they catch on?
It does not violate any rules. The Game Master is definitely allowed to do this. If they catch on, it will not create a Logic Error.

-Why did Lambda bother with this in the first place?
In doing so, she can keep open as many interpretations of the truth as possible, which gives her a much larger number of options. In addition to this, she can easily respond to questions about the number of people on the island, without trapping herself.

-Did Battler have any reason to lie about what he saw, or was Lambda just making him lie?
Battler didn't lie. On the Fantasy side of the story, what he saw is what was really happening.

All of them can be easily answered.
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Old 2012-01-24, 16:37   Link #27289
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Well yes, if you alter absolutely everything about the nature of the scene based on no presented evidence, you can answer just about any question.

What about when the scene is playing out as Battler describes it? Why must he be discarded just because he's "unreliable?" Is there not a simpler answer, one which follows the description Battler has advanced without necessitating that Erika be subject to the vague whims of unverifiable reality, precisely the opposite of what her entire investigative method is supposedly about?
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Old 2012-01-24, 16:59   Link #27290
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Well yes, if you alter absolutely everything about the nature of the scene based on no presented evidence, you can answer just about any question.

What about when the scene is playing out as Battler describes it? Why must he be discarded just because he's "unreliable?" Is there not a simpler answer, one which follows the description Battler has advanced without necessitating that Erika be subject to the vague whims of unverifiable reality, precisely the opposite of what her entire investigative method is supposedly about?
Actually, from the Fantasy side, the scene in question is remarkably short and can be summarized like this:
Erika introduces herself to the family, and is welcomed as a guest.

I didn't change that premise. I just made them welcome her in a different way.

My theory hinges on the fact that two stories, which are different but loosely intertwined, exist at the same time. Therefore, Battler is not unreliable at all. After all, Battler is not the Detective in EP5, so those who control his Piece in this game will only see the Fantasy side of the story.

And of course, in a game like this, her investigative method fails. That's why she lost to BATTLER in the EP5 Tea Party. He understood how to fight, and she was left to look like an idiot while Lambda questioned her: "Are you sure you wanna keep fighting?"

Of course, before he managed to reach the truth, he was the one being thoroughly defeated by her. Ordinarily, her methods are very reliable. However, this game board was created with the Endless Magic, which creates a cat box in which all possibilities can and do exist.
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Old 2012-01-24, 17:04   Link #27291
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It can be easily answered.

Battlers perspective is fake! The monologue is a fantasy scene that doesn't exist. No matter how much authority a detective has, he/she still cannot read the minds of people. So the whole monologue of Battler was just used to make everyone believe that it is, even if not objective, at least a "human" prespective. His real thought probably have been completly different!
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Old 2012-01-24, 17:25   Link #27292
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And of course, in a game like this, her investigative method fails. That's why she lost to BATTLER in the EP5 Tea Party. He understood how to fight, and she was left to look like an idiot while Lambda questioned her: "Are you sure you wanna keep fighting?"

Of course, before he managed to reach the truth, he was the one being thoroughly defeated by her. Ordinarily, her methods are very reliable. However, this game board was created with the Endless Magic, which creates a cat box in which all possibilities can and do exist.
God forbid Erika attempt to play a game using the rules that were told to her by a higher authority. A higher authority who, according to your claims, was lying to her apparently for no good reason but to tease her and make her suffer.

I hate to feel sorry for Erika, but damn... you seriously do not care at all about her, do you?
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It can be easily answered.

Battlers perspective is fake! The monologue is a fantasy scene that doesn't exist. No matter how much authority a detective has, he/she still cannot read the minds of people. So the whole monologue of Battler was just used to make everyone believe that it is, even if not objective, at least a "human" prespective. His real thought probably have been completly different!
So what you're saying is, there is no perspective at all for Erika to rely on.

In short, her abilities don't really exist.

I don't think this is the sort of thing you want to hang your hat on.
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Old 2012-01-24, 18:35   Link #27293
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Hey, that reminds me. Renall, didn't we have a argument like a year ago in the EP6 thread about the possibility that Erika was a fantasy-layer (or mystery-illusion-layer) character? I think one of the points was that it might let her legitimately observe Shannon and Kanon together since they were on the same layer as her. What did we end up concluding from that?
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Old 2012-01-24, 18:41   Link #27294
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God forbid Erika attempt to play a game using the rules that were told to her by a higher authority. A higher authority who, according to your claims, was lying to her apparently for no good reason but to tease her and make her suffer.

I hate to feel sorry for Erika, but damn... you seriously do not care at all about her, do you?
I think we've already established that Bernkastel knows how to play the part of the cruel antagonist who abuses everyone around her just to alleviate a bit of her boredom.

Even so, I'd like to say that Erika is practically second on my list of favorite characters. As for my theory about the mutable nature of the truth of the game board, it does in no way imply that I don't care about her. I'm just stating my conclusions, based on overwhelming evidence.

For example, here's BATTLER, explaining my theory for me.

Quote:
Yeah, that's right. Regardless of my truth, yours can exist at the same time. ......That's what this world is like. No one can disprove them, so even if there are various truths and even if they contradict each other wildly, they can exist at the same time. Here, as many truths exist as you can imagine. No one can just deny that all on their own...!
Of course, this was after he had found the truth of the game board and become the Game Master, so I'm pretty sure he knows how it works... Unless he's lying, but I have no reason to believe he is.

And then this scene of Erika's:

Quote:
Even though this sort of logic would be a foul trick in the mystery genre,
......in this world where witches and mystery war,
.........it is...such a refined board layout......
[...]
And, ironically,
.........it taught me, the one who had always believed in a single truth, that there isn't necessarily just one truth.
If I just broaden my perspective, I can see completely different truths.
......And though each of those truths are 'true', ......they are incomplete if they are all you can see......
.........In my life until now, just how many truths have I missed because I was blinded by some trivial truth......
.........This is...
...the truth of the world......
......Because of our arrogance in thinking that only one truth exists, ......whenever we find one truth, we have been blinded to all others.
.........Thank you, Beatrice-san.
.........I never thought...
...that I would learn the true nature of this world from a witch.
She finally realized how to fight on this game board. But it was too late. She had already been cornered. In the same way, when Battler finally realized how to fight on this game board, it was too late. Beatrice was dead.

This also fits in perfectly with Ryukishi's definition of the term "Anti-Mystery," which he had Beatrice explain in one of the TIPS in Tsubasa.
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Old 2012-01-24, 18:55   Link #27295
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
God forbid Erika attempt to play a game using the rules that were told to her by a higher authority. A higher authority who, according to your claims, was lying to her apparently for no good reason but to tease her and make her suffer.

I hate to feel sorry for Erika, but damn... you seriously do not care at all about her, do you?
When I started reading Agatha Christie's mysteries the first thing I learn was 'Trust No One'.
If the story is being narrated by someone HE CAN BE THE CULPRIT, if there's policemen around ONE OF THEM CAN BE THE CULPRIT, if someone is declared as dead, HE MIGHT BE FAKING AND BE THE CULPRIT, if more than one witnessers are saying something THEY MIGHT BE LYING AND BE THE CULPRIT, having Poirot or miss Marple as witnessers of someone's alibi DOESN'T MEAN HE TRICKED THEM AND CAN'T BE THE CULPRIT, even a person who has no ties with the victim and who doesn't even know him/her CAN BE THE CULPRIT.

And also:

EVERYBODY LIES, DETECTIVE INCLUDED AND EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT THE CULPRIT (though the detective usually is kind enough to let the reader know he was lying to trick someone).

So... any particular reason why Lambda should be considered trustworthy by Erika who's a mystery expert?
Any particular reason Bern should be considered trustworthy when she's always there, threatening her and aiming solely at her own amusement that can come also in form of Erika being punished/in troubles?

Erika probably knew they weren't trustworthy. However, like in any mystery she had to choose in what to believe.
Shannon and Kanon being there when she couldn't check if they really were but was given a red truth that seemed to confirm it, might have seemed something not worth doubting about it.
After all the ShKannon theory, despite being the obvious truth, seems absurd first sight.

Same as the cousins and Rosa not being dead when Battler screamed.

Erika chose to believe what was being told to her, that Shannon and Kumasawa were behin her because 'everybody is there and, although she can's see Shannon and Kumasawa they must be there'.

It's not a stupid reasoning considering figuring out someone had been playing for 2/3 years 2 different identities, while being covered by everyone or not being discovered is much harder to swallow.

That of course, unless they were lying and Kanon only existed during the school festival and in those two days of Rokkenjima... which would still be weird as it was implied while Kanon was around the Ushiromiya had other servants who were not on the island that day and were probably questioned about Kanon.

If they had told 'Kanon? Never heard of him,' he would have been rather suspicious... and I guess Witch Hunters would also like him as he would litterally be the boy that came out of nowhere...

So I think even if Erika's prospective was reliable she was somehow tricked into believing that, in a moment in which she couldn't check who was around her, Kanon and Shannon were both present.

Her situation isn't more pitiable that Battler, who was tricked into believing that Shannon was death by Hideyoshi in EP 1.

They both should have checked and they didn't. They both had a good reason not to do it. And the gamemaster took advantage of it.

However forgive me but I don't think I remember your explanation for how Shannon and Kanon could be in the same room with Erika. Would you mind sharing it again?
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Old 2012-01-25, 10:35   Link #27296
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Erika was told, in no uncertain terms, that she had certain powers and abilities. These powers and abilities require certain base conditions to be true, as otherwise the abilities either do not exist or she cannot actually use them.

Erika never once seemed to complain about not being able to use an ability other than in ep6 where she was faking.

So either Erika has been lied to about all of her abilities but is neither smart enough nor perceptive enough to actually notice that none of her powers really work unless she's spoon-fed them, or she has noticed and said nothing, or she believes that everything is working correctly and is right/wrong about it.

Yet, to believe most of the explanations that are being posited here, we basically have to assume she doesn't know a damn thing, doesn't notice a damn thing, and doesn't give a damn about it when that runs entirely counter to her character.

Can you see how this appears completely incoherent? Trying to handwave it away doesn't change that Erika herself should have said something if things were not operating the way she was told that they operate. To say nothing of the literary flop that would result if it turns out Battler and Beatrice defeating Erika wasn't even particularly triumphant or impressive because she was consistently and repeatedly lied to about the things she was actually allowed to do, to the point that she basically was never able to actually accomplish anything that higher powers didn't force on her.

This is completely not the same as a deception played upon the reader's assumptions. To even compare it to Christie shows a complete lack of understanding of what a literary faux pas such a scenario would be. It makes Erika's character either mutable as a matter of convenience, or utterly incapable of actually accomplishing anything she believes herself capable of doing.

It's beyond pitiful. It's just pointless. She's not even a villain, she's just meaningless filler that exists to be toyed with and tossed away. Nothing she did mattered at all, basically, and nothing in End or Dawn matters either. Battler might as well have gotten the point at the end of ep4 and skipped over that crap, because it was a bunch of pointless lies that existed solely to torment Erika, and he was willingly and gleefully complicit in that torture. It's sick.
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Old 2012-01-25, 11:22   Link #27297
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Erika was told, in no uncertain terms, that she had certain powers and abilities. These powers and abilities require certain base conditions to be true, as otherwise the abilities either do not exist or she cannot actually use them.

Erika never once seemed to complain about not being able to use an ability other than in ep6 where she was faking.

So either Erika has been lied to about all of her abilities but is neither smart enough nor perceptive enough to actually notice that none of her powers really work unless she's spoon-fed them, or she has noticed and said nothing, or she believes that everything is working correctly and is right/wrong about it.

Yet, to believe most of the explanations that are being posited here, we basically have to assume she doesn't know a damn thing, doesn't notice a damn thing, and doesn't give a damn about it when that runs entirely counter to her character.

Can you see how this appears completely incoherent? Trying to handwave it away doesn't change that Erika herself should have said something if things were not operating the way she was told that they operate. To say nothing of the literary flop that would result if it turns out Battler and Beatrice defeating Erika wasn't even particularly triumphant or impressive because she was consistently and repeatedly lied to about the things she was actually allowed to do, to the point that she basically was never able to actually accomplish anything that higher powers didn't force on her.

This is completely not the same as a deception played upon the reader's assumptions. To even compare it to Christie shows a complete lack of understanding of what a literary faux pas such a scenario would be. It makes Erika's character either mutable as a matter of convenience, or utterly incapable of actually accomplishing anything she believes herself capable of doing.

It's beyond pitiful. It's just pointless. She's not even a villain, she's just meaningless filler that exists to be toyed with and tossed away. Nothing she did mattered at all, basically, and nothing in End or Dawn matters either. Battler might as well have gotten the point at the end of ep4 and skipped over that crap, because it was a bunch of pointless lies that existed solely to torment Erika, and he was willingly and gleefully complicit in that torture. It's sick.
I'm afraid I'm not following you. I did say that she didn't figure out how to fight until it was too late, but I never said her powers were useless.

In fact, with the help of Bern and Dlanor, Erika has an extremely useful ability: the ability to create Red Truths of her own, in various specific circumstances.

And she does learn as she goes. In EP5, she didn't make very good use of it, but in EP6, she used it to restrict BATTLER into a logic error, nearly breaking his game board.

She just didn't fully grasp the true nature of the game board until the end.
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Old 2012-01-25, 11:48   Link #27298
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Because she was lied to by absolutely everyone. Why is this hard to understand? Beatrice at least was honest in her presentation of the format, if not the intention of her conversation with Battler. By your ideas, no one - Battler included, mind you - was ever honest to Erika. None of her powers were real; anything she did, she did because someone threw her a scrap and claimed it was her own doing when it clearly wasn't. The Logic Error was just another trick to convince her that she had any measure of control when in actual fact she didn't.

If Erika cannot even rely upon the perspective she's told she has and the abilities she has supposedly been given, then she existed solely to be manipulated and destroyed. She was of no use to Bernkastel from the start, she was no threat to Battler, and Lambdadelta screwed with her freely. And why did any of this happen? There was no reason. They did it for nothing but witches' cruelty, every single one of them.

No wonder she tried to take vengeance on them. They deserved it.
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Old 2012-01-25, 12:40   Link #27299
Toku
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Because she was lied to by absolutely everyone. Why is this hard to understand? Beatrice at least was honest in her presentation of the format, if not the intention of her conversation with Battler. By your ideas, no one - Battler included, mind you - was ever honest to Erika. None of her powers were real; anything she did, she did because someone threw her a scrap and claimed it was her own doing when it clearly wasn't. The Logic Error was just another trick to convince her that she had any measure of control when in actual fact she didn't.

If Erika cannot even rely upon the perspective she's told she has and the abilities she has supposedly been given, then she existed solely to be manipulated and destroyed. She was of no use to Bernkastel from the start, she was no threat to Battler, and Lambdadelta screwed with her freely. And why did any of this happen? There was no reason. They did it for nothing but witches' cruelty, every single one of them.

No wonder she tried to take vengeance on them. They deserved it.
Well, I don't know about all of that.

It is still a battle of reasoning, and she is extremely intelligent. She had more of a chance than Battler ever did in the first 4 games.

Her perspectives weren't that unreliable. Her Piece should have access to the Mystery side of the story, and she can watch the Fantasy side from the Meta World. All of this will give her many vital clues with which to begin reasoning.

Her objective was always the same: destroy the illusion of the witch. But she didn't really focus on that goal, and instead focused on trapping Natsuhi and BATTLER. That was her own mistake.

Even though the cat box hadn't been opened, she decided for herself that her perspective must be THE single, objective truth. Nobody ever deceived her into believing something like that. Certainly, on the Mystery side, her Piece's perspective is supposed to be very close to the truth of the current game. You can't use Fantasy to trick that perspective. However, it isn't quite at the level of Red Truth. And nobody ever said it was.

This applies to real life too, of course. Just because we observe something, we believe it's true, even though it's not at the level of Red Truth. In fact, Red Truth doesn't even exist in our world. All we can do is choose what to believe in.

That's the very definition of "Anti-Mystery." I don't know if you read that TIP or not, but anyway, this is what it says.

For example, you'll probably think it's ridiculous if I tell you that the world you're seeing right now is a dream and the world of your dreams is reality. But could you prove that I'm wrong? Anything you could say wouldn't be at the level of Red Truth. It might be close, but in the end, it's just not there. Because humans can't reach that level of truth on their own.

I'm not the one who decided that Umineko would be like this. Ryukishi wrote it this way.

And this is where his "without love, it cannot be seen" line comes in. In a world of Anti-Mystery, what you believe is decided by your love. If you want to believe something, you certainly will. But just because you believe something, doesn't necessarily mean it's true.
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Old 2012-01-25, 15:49   Link #27300
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There are 2 things that i was thinking about.

1. Erika is arrogant. She always says she is a oh so great detective, but was "too lazy" to check the corpses of the cousins, although she could. When I think back, it is the same as it was with the parlor scene. She "could" investigate the number of people, but just didn't.
Maybe it is like in EP8 with Ange? Where she could just "enter" the body of her piece, but when she didn't want to, she could just let the piece take over... and now i wonder who "controls" this piece's personality when the player is not the one controlling it....

2. It was never said, that the content of what Meta-Battler saw and what Bern/Meta-Erika saw was the same.
What if Bern/Meta-Erika saw the whole game through the eyes of Piece-Erika? Also the parlor scene may have been presented longer, but skipped for Meta-Battler, because it was not really necessary for Battler to see it? Hmm I am not sure about this.
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