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View Poll Results: Petition
/sign 1 9.09%
Against 7 63.64%
Neutral 3 27.27%
Voters: 11. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-01-25, 07:20   Link #1
felix
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Petition: Ban Negative "Utopian" Views From Series/Episode Discussion

This sums it up nicely...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Just another bad Ano Natsu episode... 3/10....
Literally the only reason to post in a thread about a show you hate is for negative attention. Please stop. It's aggravating.
I would like to request for measures to be taken for any heavily polarizing philosophical, utopian, idealistic, etc views, rants, summaries, etc, to be removed from series discussion thread and moved into either their own thread (if a series has it's own forum) or moved to some other forum section where these views may be discussed independently and potentially on a more broad scare.

The petition explicitly targets the repetative "I hate everything about this show" type of posts that some people post every week, episode-by-episode, on series they aparently don't like at all (sometimes targetting the franchise itself). This petition does not target (friendly) debates, criticism, or discussion on the flaws of the show; but sees them as being shortcircuted and overwritten by the over the top rant posts and "hate"-posts.

Problems and Reasons:
  • These kinds of posts and patterns are of no interest to the majority of the people in the thread (going by the assumtion the threads are for the fans, and hence the majority should be the people who like the show) and hence can be considered off-topic. Since the people generally going to the series thread do not care for these kind of derogatory statements on the series they enjoy it's probably for the best the posts and discussion be moved into an environment where there might be people who actually both agree and disagree with it such as General Anime.

  • These kinds of posts heavily polarize discussion, and hence discussion even small insignificant flaws in a show turns balistic as people take camps or are forced into them by accusations and other issues that stem from overly negative statements of some posters.

  • A show is what it is, and it doesn't have to be what you want it to turn into. As a consummer we have the right to buy what we like to show our support, or ignore what we don't like to show our dislike of the product. Hence, nothing will come out of complaining about it and disecting it. If the people in question are doing this because of some responsiblity such as a blog, list they keep, or some other alternative reason then I believe most people would appretiate it if they kept it to their blog, rating list, etc and not cross-post it to the series thread for no good reason, spoiling otherwise inteligent and interesting discussion, debates and criticism on the merits and flaws of a show.

  • A lot of the time some of the over the top rants can be seen as a insult to the fanbase and hence the posts themselvs are nothing more then generic harassment of all the fans of the show in the thread. Common examples of this are posts that usually focus on: moe, the show's artstyle, production values, the demographic, the show genre and or target demographic, among many others. If people have a need to vent, then any thread other then the series/episode thread should be more appropriate.
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Old 2012-01-25, 07:34   Link #2
hyl
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What about rants that contain atleast 1 reason?

edit: in reckoner's case he did bring up his reasons for hating it. I don't think that there is a problem by giving negative impressions about a serie if the rant is not baseless. Everyone can give his opinion about series as long as he/she has arguments to back his opinion up.
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Old 2012-01-25, 07:38   Link #3
Marcus H.
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I think it's sufficient to report the post and leave the mods to their verdict.
Although that would not avoid such ballistic responses to happen.
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Old 2012-01-25, 07:43   Link #4
hyl
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Well if it was only this, then i would agree with the topic starter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Just another bad Ano Natsu episode... 3/10....
But his full post was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
This show's execution continues to be less than impressive. It's funny to me how much the comedy in this tends to miss its mark. Certain things are either too understated, or overdone in presentation. I always get the feeling that they are trying too hard as well... Kind of like "Hey lets throw a joke in these intervals to make the audience laugh." This relaxed atmosphere does not work for this show one bit.

Lemon's character has been quite the eye sore as well. So jammed into your face as an "OMG! I'm a funny character!" Always sounding really confident for no particular reason and messing with the cast in supposedly comical ways, and I just really have to ask why she even is in cast. Obviously she's not even a character at this point. Just a comic relief tool, and a poor one at that since what she does all too predictable and nonsensical. Not to mention the execution problems this show has on the comedy front just does not help this show one bit.

Show so far has a bit of the worthless main protagonist syndrome. No idea at the moment why in the world anyone would have a crush on him, but hey as always, this stuff often does not make sense. Though I guess this cast in general is just very unappealing. The only ones who stand out are the ones who stand out for bad reasons. Nothing really interesting about them.

Overall... There there is some love triangle which hasn't been given much detail, some sentimental thing going on with a video and the main character possibly dieing, and bad comedy. Of course the scifi really hurts it, because it makes the main character relation in this appear quite silly.

Just another bad Ano Natsu episode... 3/10....
In short.
-bad comedy
-dislike of characters
-the usage of sci-fi

While some can agree or disagree, he did point out his flaws of that episode and the show itself.
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Old 2012-01-25, 07:43   Link #5
felix
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@hyl

As per the petition, it would depend on if the rant is disrepectful of the subject and the fans. If it's just "XXX was so dumb this episode, can't believe he didn't see that one comming." then it would be just a friendly banter and it would be fine. If you take that same statement and blow it out of proportion in a glorified wall of text and engage/target other fans of the show with it, and also repeat it episode after episode, then that would probably be better expressed in it's own (separate) topic. And if by chance it's not worthy of it's own topic, then obviously it's a not worthy of disrupting the thread either and hence should be removed. Or at least that would be the simple logic for this particular case, IMO...

I wrote the petition in a general form; not necesarly my own views. Everyone is free to interpret the small details as they wish. I believe the general idea of it would be understood the same by everyone though.

@Marcus H.

This has been a reucurring problem is not simply directed at the case/quote there.
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Old 2012-01-25, 07:43   Link #6
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Uguu.... I don't think this is necessary.

I think it's a very dangerous idea that polarizing or extremist viewpoints should be barred from presence in the thread. You shouldn't be not able to post just because some people don't like it.

Repeated and consistent over the top rants are already covered under the forum rules as "cyclical topics". That is if someone entered a thread and kept making the same kind of rant every friggin episode that is already covered.

Essentially the problem can easily be solved without changing any rules.

Solutions include
  1. Ignore List
  2. Getting a grip
  3. Not responding to people that you feel will lead to a heated debate
  4. Not taking the internet so seriously

Essentially, we'd have to say to people "post better" and really... for a casual discussion that is just not viable. Just don't aim attacks at people and I don't see the issue.
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Old 2012-01-25, 07:48   Link #7
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It's like proof reading every post for negative statements... that would be time consuming unless, the post must bypass an MOD before being posted in a thread... Oh, censorship....
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Old 2012-01-25, 07:49   Link #8
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I'm fundamentally opposed to censorship, except when it comes to highly sensitive topics like religion and race (and even then, exceptions should apply only to inflammatory remarks).

Archon_Wing has already covered what I feel are much better alternatives. Visitors to a thread are as free to ignore a "rant" as detractors are to rubbish whatever they want. It's enough to report a post deemed "offensive" to moderators. Let them do their jobs.
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Old 2012-01-25, 07:53   Link #9
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
@hyl

As per the petition, it would depend on if the rant is disrepectful of the subject and the fans. If it's just "XXX was so dumb this episode, can't believe he didn't see that one comming." then it would be just a friendly banter and it would be fine. If you take that same statement and blow it out of proportion in a glorified wall of text and engage/target other fans of the show with it, and also repeat it episode after episode, then that would probably be better expressed in it's own (separate) topic. And if by chance it's not worthy of it's own topic, then obviously it's a not worthy of disrupting the thread either and hence should be removed. Or at least that would be the simple logic for this particular case, IMO...

I wrote the petition in a general form; not necesarly my own views. Everyone is free to interpret the small details as they wish. I believe the general idea of it would be understood the same by everyone though.

@Marcus H.

This has been a reucurring problem is not simply directed at the case/quote there.
Disrepectfull to fans is not an good argument, because in every show there are haters. In a way you have to respect both sides, the haters and the fans. Or else you are too narrowminded for criticism.
It does not hurt to read some negative opinions about a serie or episode.

Like in my case, some people called Mashiro iro Symphony a bad romance because they didn't like the pairing (or in their case unexpected pairing) at the end. But that wouldn't bother me from enjoying the serie as a fan at all.
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Old 2012-01-25, 07:55   Link #10
Marcus H.
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Also, haters WILL hate. It's your choice to respond or let him/her rot.

I noticed, what perfect timing this topic is after what's going on in America right now.
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Old 2012-01-25, 07:57   Link #11
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
I think it's a very dangerous idea that polarizing or extremist viewpoints should be barred from presence in the thread. You shouldn't be not able to post just because some people don't like it.
The petition wouldn't actually prevent them from posting; it just encourages them to post in appropriate sections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Repeated and consistent over the top rants are already covered under the forum rules as "cyclical topics". That is if someone entered a thread and kept making the same kind of rant every friggin episode that is already covered.
The problem with the current rules is that they are so slow to take effect that the thread has already derailed into meta and or some other problems. And even after the moderators have intervened the drama is still there. Also as described in the petition when problems are fixed after the fact it usually leads to the entire dicussion being destroyed in the process. So for example you can't talk AT ALL about the "childish" animation in the Gundam AGE threads because some people went out of their way to make it the end of the word. And to clarify, what I mean by talk is mostly teas or joke about it; you can't do that with out fearing getting banned by a mod misinterpretting it.

The current way is to completely censor a thread.
The proposed way is to redirect it from the start so there's never a issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Essentially the problem can easily be solved without changing any rules.

Solutions include
  1. Ignore List
  2. Getting a grip
  3. Not responding to people that you feel will lead to a heated debate
  4. Not taking the internet so seriously

Essentially, we'd have to say to people "post better" and really... for a casual discussion that is just not viable. Just don't aim attacks at people and I don't see the issue.
Or they could just post in their own thread, so as per the petition they wouldn't be addressing mostly people who disagree with them; which seems to be the intention of some of them: intentionally stirring up a debate.

[edit] Lets say I add X and Y to the ignore list. What of the other people like the person who I quoted in the opening post. I'm certainly not gonna add them to the ignore list. The thread gets disrupted even if I ignore list the 2-3 posters reponsible for the mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoChan View Post
It's like proof reading every post for negative statements... that would be time consuming unless, the post must bypass an MOD before being posted in a thread... Oh, censorship....
No, it would just mean we can report and ask for certain post to be moved to their own topic if it's a pure rant, or repeating criticism over and over. Currently you can't do that; it will never pass. What will happen is the problem will escalate until thread will get censored to the point of posts being deleted once moderators start seeing the problem—which is too harsh, too little and too late.
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Old 2012-01-25, 08:02   Link #12
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
No, it would just mean we can report and ask for certain post to be moved to their own topic if it's a pure rant, or repeating criticism over and over. Currently you can't do that; it will never pass. What will happen is the problem will escalate until thread will get censored to the point of posts being deleted once moderators start seeing the problem—which is too harsh, too little and too late.
I do find it farfetched and not very logical to give the rants of a serie or it's episode their own seprate topic. What do you want to accomplish? That a specfic thread only contains neutral views and praises?
Also most series only get 1 thread to post on and there is usually a reason for that.
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Old 2012-01-25, 08:04   Link #13
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
The petition wouldn't actually prevent them from posting; it just encourages them to post in appropriate sections.
It's unnecessary complexity, especially if it's a one thread only series. For subforum series, they can move it to general discussion,
Quote:
The problem with the current rules is that they are so slow to take effect that the thread has already derailed into meta and or some other problems. And even after the moderators have intervened the drama is still there. Also as described in the petition when problems are fixed after the fact it usually leads to the entire dicussion being destroyed in the process. So for example you can't talk AT ALL about the "childish" animation in the Gundam AGE threads because some people went out of their way to make it the end of the word. And to clarify, what I mean by talk is mostly teas or joke about it; you can't do that with out fearing getting banned by a mod misinterpretting it.

The current way is to completely censor a thread.
The proposed way is to redirect it from the start so there's never a issue.
But it doesn't matter, because either way the discussion has spun out of control because people are already raging. If the mods are slower to act, then this just won't help matters. Not that they react slow anyways. And you can't just cordon off the criticism in isolation-- especially if it's a critical part to one's criticism of the series. Isolating and segregating said complaints to protect the casual's eyes seems unnecessary for me.

And they already move posts to the needed places, anyways.

My point is that the rules work fine if they are enforced, already.

Quote:
Or they could just post in their own thread, so as per the petition they wouldn't be addressing mostly people who disagree with them; which seems to be the intention of some of them: intentionally stirring up a debate.
Nah, I think the Ignore list is a sufficient feature. And I do not think a lot of people are being malicious. Well some are, but that's a case by case basis. But that's the beauty of ignore list! You can censor whoever you want, and that idiot can still say whatever he likes!

I'm firmly of the opinion that if posts like that can put someone off, then they simply need to level up on the internet. Because Animesuki is a very hospitable place for civil discussion, relative to others on the internet.
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Old 2012-01-25, 08:05   Link #14
Marcus H.
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The problem with making an entirely new thread about a single rant is that it would clutter a board where these "rant threads" would accumulate over time. Not to mention that moderating things like this is not easy, especially if said "rant threads" eventually mutate into flaming between the "hater" and the "anti-haters".
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Old 2012-01-25, 08:10   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
The problem with making an entirely new thread about a single rant is that it would clutter a board where these "rant threads" would accumulate over time. Not to mention that moderating things like this is not easy, especially if said "rant threads" eventually mutate into flaming between the "hater" and the "anti-haters".
Agreed.

And you know why? Because if you look at General Anime, there's plenty of hate threads. There's at least 2 devoted to hating, one on the very first page, and there's always occasional threads that are hate threads in disguise. There's already enough of these.... and it's not like they are high content threads anyways. I don't care for another.

We have enough already.

Short story short, it doesn't work. The nature of criticism will always drag it to front stage when it comes to addressing the work. You can't get around it.
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Old 2012-01-25, 08:13   Link #16
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I don't really see how consistently negative opinions are any different from some fan who mindlessly praises a series despite all of the noticeable flaws. In-fact, I'd say the former is better, because at least that poster is trying to be productive. This thread in general is very misleading, as the poster in question expressed his opinion with more than a few words. It was no slouch in terms of coherency, either.
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Old 2012-01-25, 08:14   Link #17
Marcus H.
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Oh, those moe, fanservice and all those loaded topics in the past few months.
We seriously don't want to overload relentlessflame or our other mods with too much stuff to look into.

Quote:
I don't really see how consistently negative opinions is any different from some fan who mindlessly praises a series despite all of the noticeable flaws. In-fact, I'd say the former is better, because at least that poster is trying to be productive.
If "trying to be productive" means "inciting flame wars and/or attracting attention, i.e. trolling", then it might be trying to be productive.
Unless this is the world of Puella Magi Madoka Magica, where negative emotions can prevent an unseen apocalypse, any form of negative attitude is unsightly and is highly advised to be refrained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiktionary
troll: To disrupt the operation of an online community, particularly by luring others into combative argument.
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Old 2012-01-25, 08:16   Link #18
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
The problem with making an entirely new thread about a single rant is that it would clutter a board where these "rant threads" would accumulate over time. Not to mention that moderating things like this is not easy, especially if said "rant threads" eventually mutate into flaming between the "hater" and the "anti-haters".
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
I do find it farfetched and not very logical to give the rants of a serie or it's episode their own seprate topic. What do you want to accomplish? That a specfic thread only contains neutral views and praises?
Also most series only get 1 thread to post on and there is usually a reason for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
It's unnecessary complexity, especially if it's a one thread only series. For subforum series, they can move it to general discussion,
If these rant posts can't justify their own topic then how can you say they justify 2-3 pages of a thread (if not more) and in series thread how do they justify being re-discussed every episode? If they justify appearing episode after episode and if we value the opinion of the one/two posters who have only negative things to say then why is a thread dedicated to their re-accuring view not justified?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
But it doesn't matter, because either way the discussion has spun out of control because people are already raging. If the mods are slower to act, then this just won't help matters. Not that they react slow anyways. And you can't just cordon off the criticism in isolation-- especially if it's a critical part to one's criticism of the series. Isolating and segregating said complaints to protect the casual's eyes seems unnecessary for me.
Do these very volite topics justify being in a thread where the majority of posters would simply disagree with them? Why is it worse for them being in sections where the views would be moderate. You say it I'm trying to protect casuals, I say we're giving too much power to people randomly stirring topics in inapropriate context.
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Old 2012-01-25, 08:18   Link #19
hyl
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Also i find it kind of odd that you are making this petition.

I can recall a similar situation a few months ago in the guilty crown thread (when it did not have it's own sub forum), that you were making lot's rants about some episodes yourself.
Some people also find your rants somewhat distracting from the topic back then (most of the time the similar complaints how bad Shuu was as a main character or the plot itself).
So how is this situation different from yours in the guilty crown general discussion topic back then?
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Old 2012-01-25, 08:25   Link #20
Demi.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Oh, those moe, fanservice and all those loaded topics in the past few months.
We seriously don't want to overload relentlessflame or our other mods with too much stuff to look into.



If "trying to be productive" means "inciting flame wars and/or attracting attention, i.e. trolling", then it might be trying to be productive.
Unless this is the world of Puella Magi Madoka Magica, where negative emotions can prevent an unseen apocalypse, any form of negative attitude is unsightly and is highly advised to be refrained.
It's not the fault of the negative poster if a flame war is incited. Other posters should accept those opinions and move on... Or debate with them in disagreement. But it's their own fault if it turns into a flame war. Not all negative posts are productive, obviously. However, the OP sure picked a terrible quote to make a point with, if he wanted to get the point across.
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