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Old 2012-01-24, 22:18   Link #2141
Laith
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Vivid does have a good setting for a fighting game. But yeah not probable.
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Old 2012-01-24, 22:27   Link #2142
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I guess maybe they could use the Sound Stages for that. Maybe.
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Old 2012-01-24, 22:28   Link #2143
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Originally Posted by rxrx View Post
Anyway, I do not know why, but I think present Hayate might have a strong dislike for her future self though.
I would like to see them meet. And also future Hayate reaction to Rein 1 still being around.
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Old 2012-01-25, 03:45   Link #2144
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When you think of it, the game is called Lyrical Nanoha but she has the least involvement in the story. Fate gets to deal with her family issue and Hayate gets to deal with the cats and Diarche but Nanoha is just there to torture poor Chrono.
It's worse than usual in this game, but that's always been the case for Nanoha. Even in S1, where she was the most involved out of any of the stories, the story itself was more about Fate than it was about Nanoha. A's was more about Hayate, and while she did finally get a story in which she could grow in StrikerS with the whole motherhood thing, it was hampered by poor writing, started when the series was already halfway through and she had to share what little screentime was left with co-main character Subaru.

'tis a curse the girl always had.
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Old 2012-01-25, 03:47   Link #2145
Akiyoshi
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It's worse than usual in this game, but that's always been the case for Nanoha. Even in S1, where she was the most involved out of any of the stories, the story itself was more about Fate than it was about Nanoha. A's was more about Hayate, and while she did finally get a story in which she could grow in StrikerS with the whole motherhood thing, it was hampered by poor writing, started when the series was already halfway through and she had to share what little screentime was left with co-main character Subaru.

'tis a curse the girl always had.
In Force she have to share screen with even more people and is now barely a mentor for Tohma. ViVid is even worse because Nanoha is totally relegated to the sidelines to cheer for ViVio and the other girls xDU.
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Old 2012-01-25, 04:07   Link #2146
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Nanoha had plenty of moments in the original season.

There was Episode 3, when she let the Jewel Seed go and the huge tree caused massive damage to the city and endangered lives. (And possibly killed or maimed people, but we don't know.)

That was the defining moment that turned Nanoha into a career magical girl. Also, someone who would keep giving of herself and pushing herself until she ended up broken on an alien snowfield.

There's also the two defining moments of her backstory; how she grew up knowing loneliness and learning independence, and the first time (maybe) she used violence to try and solve a situation (that turned out okay).

We don't see a backstory moment to retroactively echo her decision to help Yuuno, she just tells us that her father told her to help people when she could.

Maybe the series could have spent a scene or two on Nanoha learning how to fly and feeling the absolute joy thereof.
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Old 2012-01-25, 04:39   Link #2147
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Oh they were there, but they were far from the focus.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
In Force she have to share screen with even more people and is now barely a mentor for Tohma. ViVid is even worse because Nanoha is totally relegated to the sidelines to cheer for ViVio and the other girls xDU.
In Vivid's defense, it did take Nanoha's name out of the title, and replaced it with something close to Vivio's.

... who then takes on her mothers curse as the manga is more about Einhart then her.
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Old 2012-01-25, 04:59   Link #2148
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In Vivid's defense, it did take Nanoha's name out of the title, and replaced it with something close to Vivio's.

... who then takes on her mothers curse as the manga is more about Einhart then her.
Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha ViVid

xDU

But yeah, i know what you meant, Einhart is more of a main character than Vivio xDU.

It runs in the family xDU
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Old 2012-01-25, 09:04   Link #2149
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I think it jumped across to Touma too, somehow: he just got it in different ways. At least Force is kinda about him.

And yeah, Nanoha's a Supporting Protagonist. Always has been.
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Old 2012-01-25, 13:00   Link #2150
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The point with Tohma is that he just recently started to do main haracter stuff, and spent the past year and a half being a living trophy for everyone to catch xDU. Fortunately his developement in this game gives a good omen by giving foreshadowing about his future character growth(a good marketing strategy i must say, like if they're saying "yes, Force is going to get better, we promise" xDU).

The Florian Sisters feel more or less believable as main characters since we got quickly to know thier personalities, they made things by themselves that leave a strong impact on the plot and are closely involved with the current situation. They just have that little detail that always annoys me about debuting villains on the franchise save for the Numbers: they're better than everyone xDU ...save for the materials.

Even the Wolkenritter annoyed me at first during A's before getting to know their really endearing and cool personalities, i relly wanted Vita's head ona plate at first, with Shamal's heart as a side dish and Signum's guts for dessert(Karma gives me my wish three seasons latter, me and my big mouth xDU). To be fair, the Florian Sisters are much more tame than the Wolkenritter but still, i know Amitie is awesome and her hot blodeness helps her in battle but topping the combined might of three ultimate Breaker-Type spells just by herself sounds a little too FanFic-ish to my tastes xDU. I don't mix well with mischievous/seductive types like Kyrie so her character failed to compell to me, furtunately she's also pretty funny and i like that Karma seems to like slapping her for said behavior so i think she's ok.

The Materials seems to also suffer from the "overpowered new characters syndrome" but to a less degree and also they're become great character in their own right. Like the Wolks in A's they manage to gain my likeness because of their antics, personality and cool demeanor xD(i even grow to like Dearche, the whinny little king is hilarious xD), they were well blended into the plot and do many awesome stuff yet i feel them more balanced than the Florian Sisters, i felt their struggled more believable(Stern somehow manage to make her defeat at the hands of Yuri into a Crowning Moment of Awesome for herself and the scene where she and Levi fused with Dearche was really touching). This is an incredible improvement because i really didn't care much for them on the first game, Tsuzuki did an amazing developement job for them here.

About Yuri, she have a free pass since she's like Reinforce in A's. An "Ultimate Boss" character, so is naturally expected that she's far stronger than everyone else which what force all the parties into cooperation and put the plot into motion towards a single goal which is "save" her. Yuri is cute, endearing and unholy powerfull. So yeah, i like her just well, i hoped she could get more screetime. Wodner if she will have more developement in the manga focused on the Eltrian Team xD
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Old 2012-01-25, 13:12   Link #2151
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha ViVid
Drrp, me brain's in a blender it seems.

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I think it jumped across to Touma too, somehow: he just got it in different ways. At least Force is kinda about him.

And yeah, Nanoha's a Supporting Protagonist. Always has been.
Dunno, Thoma's been pretty damn central in... well... pretty much everything Force so far. Almost everything bounces back to him in one way or another, I'd say he's the one this story is about allright.
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Old 2012-01-25, 14:00   Link #2152
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Hence the 'kinda'. Most of the story is about him, but he's not that great of a lead in practise.
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Old 2012-01-25, 14:30   Link #2153
Keroko
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So you keep saying.

Anyway, another thing Aki pointed out is the 'overpowered character syndrome.' And, well, I think he's right. But to expand on that, what we see here is the most likely route Nanoha would have taken had they not gone with anti-magic as a plot device. Much as people hate the anti-magic that crept in the system in StrikerS, it did give a viable excuse to create a somewhat threatening situation for the heroines without pulling the bigger powerlevel card. Too bad the execution was lacking and left a bad taste in many mouths though.

In the PSP games on the other hand, there's no sign of anti-magic. Instead, the enemies are more powerful and are defeated by powered up heroines.
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Old 2012-01-25, 15:09   Link #2154
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On that note, Yahtzee had an idea for video games that might work for anime, if handled well.

What If We Leveled Backwards?!

If Nanoha is going to keep pushing herself until she breaks, perhaps use that. Let her actually break herself to the point of becoming permanently weaker each season, so that she has to fight smarter rather than harder in further seasons.


Well, it's not my favorite solution, either.

Here's a better one -- have villains that fight smarter, rather than harder.

To an extent, that's what the AMF technology and use of Combat Cyborgs and Inherent Systems was doing in StrikerS. But there are ways to do this without those tools.

What if the enemy had more Yuunos and Shamals than Nanohas and Vitas? What if their magic system and combat style relied more on teleportation and fields (Kekkai) than on overwhelming power?

Since they can teleport away from any fight that goes bad, it's impossible to beat them without capturing them in a field of your own. Which is hard to do when they have instead caught you in one of their own fields.

They also demonstrate that just as it's possible to create a Healing Field, you can create Shooting Fields that assault the enemies trapped within with a Touhou-esque bullet hell. A barrage that would leave Nanoha unable to find the time to set up a Starlight Breaker, so even she can't simply blast her way out.

All of this faces the Aces and Wolkenritter with a new challenge that prevents them from applying their full strength right away, and it also provides a new use for the support characters that the series was leaving behind: Yuuno and Shamal primarily, but maybe also Arf and Zafira.
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Old 2012-01-25, 15:20   Link #2155
Keroko
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If Nanoha is going to keep pushing herself until she breaks, perhaps use that. Let her actually break herself to the point of becoming permanently weaker each season, so that she has to fight smarter rather than harder in further seasons
A good plan, if not for one flaw: Tsuzuki can't write smart fights.
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Old 2012-01-25, 15:37   Link #2156
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to be fair, very few manga authors can write smart fights
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Old 2012-01-25, 15:50   Link #2157
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to be fair, very few manga authors can write smart fights
Too true...

...

Rumiko Takahashi always did have some beautiful fight-scenes.
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Old 2012-01-25, 15:56   Link #2158
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So you keep saying.
Because it's largely the case. I could go in-depth about it, but it would take a while.

And Hirohiko Araki is easily the master of smart fighting...except if it's the last fight of an arc, where they usually win by having bigger bullshit than the villain.
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Old 2012-01-25, 16:19   Link #2159
Keroko
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Because it's largely the case. I could go in-depth about it, but it would take a while.
Then by all means, I await your lengthy reply in the Force thread.

On smart fights... for me it doesn't have to be supergenius smart, as long as it makes sense and looks cool.
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Old 2012-01-25, 17:09   Link #2160
Akiyoshi
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A good plan, if not for one flaw: Tsuzuki can't write smart fights.
Yup, that's a terrible flaw in some cases, it will be cool to see the Aces/Wolkenritter be faced by actual smarter opponents instead of holding the idiot ball to make the enemy look more threatening(case in point: Curren and Cypha xDU).

I'm not against having more pwoerfull enemies, in fact that was one of my main complaints about Force and the increasing Anti-Magic campaing Tsuzuki is running. Gears of Destiny was very interesting and the characters have well executed developement, and i hostly like them because they're both interesting AND powerfull.

The problem comes when the feats of superior power come out of nowhere without any explanation. Amitie's desperation attack that surpasses the Triple Braker looked like kind of an asspull at least to my eyes, if incresing foreshadowing of her immense power was given before then it would feel more natural. I guess the Material come out as better characters to me since their superior power was alrerady stated since the first game and right from the Beginning Dearche shows that they still have an edge in strenght over the heroes and worked from that point onwards. More powerfull character that challenge our heroes into becoming stronger are always welcome to me as long as they're played carefully. Frieza from DBZ is a prime example, he was orders of magnitude stronger than everyone on his saga but Toriyama managed his character quite well.

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On smart fights... for me it doesn't have to be supergenius smart, as long as it makes sense and looks cool.
Yup, that was another of my initial dissapoints with Force, the fights were writen so the losing part make moronic descicions in order of getting screwed. Fortunately the manga improved quite well near the end of the first stage of the story and continued improved since then.

Vivid is also getting increasingly better, the tournament fights are way better than the team battle of the early chapters.

The big advantage in Gears of Destiny is because of it's nature as a fight game, we only get informed of the shortcomings and results on the fight, we're the ones who use the character and face the challenge so the amount of satisfaction depend of ourselves xD!
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