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Old 2012-01-29, 02:06   Link #27381
Judoh
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Seems like a good time to bring this up.

I haven't reread episode 5 in awhile. But for some reason I was always under the impression that Meta Erika didn't exist until she was brought up to their level in the Witch Trial scene. I don't really remember her interacting with Battler, Bern and Lambda at all until that part.

and this part of episode 5 is probably what got that in my head.

Spoiler for space:
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Old 2012-01-29, 02:17   Link #27382
AuraTwilight
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I distinctly remember Erika talking in the Meta-World before the suspension of the game, though. Can someone do a quick combthrough?
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Old 2012-01-29, 02:19   Link #27383
Kealym
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Mmm, well, it is a bit odd. I'd say it's just Bern controlling her piece very directly, similarly to how Lambda appears to be very literally acting out the MF19YAO dialogue during the phone calls.

And to be fair, Erika herself delivered the purely Meta "Detective's authority. ......The detective has the right to inspect all crime scenes. Stand back, Ushiromiya Battler. This is an official right of this game, which the human side has acknowledged.", right before the screenshot you posted.

Also, while I myself would say Piece-Erika and Meta-Erika are just about the same entity, all the time, Erika starts participating in the Meta layer (or at least, a layer above the Gameboard) in the scene of Kinzo's escape from his study. She talks to Kinzo, Beato, and introduces Dlanor. I forget if she was above the Gameboard earlier than that.

Last edited by Kealym; 2012-01-29 at 02:19. Reason: forgot
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Old 2012-01-29, 02:37   Link #27384
LyricalAura
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After the study fight, Meta-Battler tells Dlanor that it was Lambda!Battler doing the fighting in that fantasy scene rather than himself, so there's a definite distinction being made between the meta world and the game board's fantasy layer.

Besides which, even if there is some continuity between Meta-Erika and Fantasy-Erika, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. The game was being replayed for Battler, so it's possible that only Fantasy-Erika existed in the original run, and Meta-Erika was only added to fight Battler and deliberately made to align with Fantasy-Erika after the fact.
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Old 2012-01-29, 02:54   Link #27385
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Should we really call that a 'fantasy layer'? I mean, it's basically a meta-argument, and Erika shouldn't be seeing Fantasy whatsover. It's more like Meta-shenanigans with Lambda basically using a Battler piece for her extra flair.

Or Lambdadelta just crashing everything together because "lol things Beatrice wouldn't do."
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Old 2012-01-29, 02:54   Link #27386
Used Can
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Because a Meta-character being present means she doesn't exist?
Hmm... I haven't claimed that?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Regardless, Meta-Erika was present before the Parlor Scene. I know that for a fact. Hell, you could argue she existed during the "Kinzo Escape" scene. What criteria are we using to determine if Meta-Erika exists or not, since she's ALWAYS meta-aware to some capacity?
See, my sole point is she wasn't present, as a Meta character, during the time the game was running the parlour scene. As we saw with Battler, not being present during the game means you don't get to know what's happening.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Even if we take this at face value and assume Erika can't see through her own piece (which is nonsense), why wouldn't she take a head-count?
Erika doesn't trust anything not stated in red, and combs the red for verbal tricks and loopholes. This isn't good enough. Your explanations just aren't consistent with how Erika behaves.
Actually, my explanations have been as consistent with her character as she's been presented. We know she came to the island already having information about the story. She knew, for a fact, there were no more than 17 people in the island and that Kinzo was already dead. She also already know all the people who were in Rokkenjima. Not only that, but what we saw once Battler showed up was a replay of the game. So, it's entirely possible Piece Erika got the information about everyone being in the parlour by Lambda herself. And, thus, she simply didn't bother checking. Hell, she feel for the same cheap-ass trick in EP6. She could have Battler giver her names and numbers for the people in the sealed rooms, yet she didn't do that.

(I've got to admit, though, I find it funny that despite having information on the previous games, Erika never seemed to have thought of Kanon's deaths as suspicious. Well, I guess that's not necessarily Erika being dumb, but R07 simply not thinking that far. I think the same about the trial in EP5, and how Beatrice couldn't figure out the trick in red about dead people, when she herself had resorted to similar tricks in the past. That, and that even though she claimed she had committed the crimes, she kept on trying to place the blame on humans throughout the trial.)

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yea, and then things happened after Dr. Nanjo gave his diagnosis. Rememberrrr?
You tell me. As far as I remember, after we saw Erika questioning Nanjo, the scene switches to the Gohda and Shannon playing in the kitchen, followed by Kumasaw and Kanon finding Genji's corpse, and then we see everyone gathered in the parlous talking about Genji's death. So, it isn't as if Erika was forcefully prevented from checking the corpses in the cousins' room, in addition to the fact she said herself she wouldn't desecrate the dead by doing that.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yes, and? To Erika's credit, the culprit, WHOEVER IT MIGHT BE, isn't going to do murder-y stuff if she's fucking watching them. Nor would it be fun for her to solve things that way.
Uhh.... so, it's fine if the culprit actually was in the Guest House and Erika was watching him?

In addition, that doesn't help the idea of her trying to truly search for alibis. She knew the mansion was the place were the people with the motives to do shit were located, yet she never did anything about it. In fact, had it not been for Bern, she'd have been unable to put up an argument had Beatrice brought up the people in the mansion.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I'm ... not sure what you're arguing? 'Cause it sounds like we agree with each other. And to be fair, she chose to monitor Battler, who has just been thrust into a very precarious position as the relative who discovered and announced the gold.
But Battler was in the mansion, and he hadn't returned to the Guest House until 3:00 AM.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
And Lambda seemed to have formed her entire gameboard narrative around a red-herring Natsuhi culprit theme, by blackmailing her piece with the MF19YAO, and removing Krauss, the only person who would've staunchly remained her ally, throughout.
Of course, but that doesn't change the fact that Erika also opened a window of opportunity to have Natsuhi framed. The whole thing about her not noticing anything from 12 to 1 was perfectly intended, in addition to not paying the mansion the attention she should have, if she was suspecting Natsuhi.

(I also find it odd that no one spoke of the scenes with Natsuhi being black-mailed. We know the players can see scenes even if their pieces aren't there - for example, the scene with the mysterious knock. Yet, no one spoke about the scenes with Natsuhi being called by the man from 19 years ago.)

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
It's been so vague in this discussion, because the Parlor scene when she's introduced is where the "everyone that in this room" red is given. However, the same issue exists in the parlor scene where she accuses Natsuhi, and she did explicitly gather everyone together for that. It's even vaguely described as the pieces being compelled to attend because of her Detective Authority thing.
Yes, but in the second one, Erika already had her culprit. She wasn't paying attention to anyone in particular but Natsuhi.
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Old 2012-01-29, 03:09   Link #27387
AuraTwilight
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Hmm... I haven't claimed that?
You're kind of inferring it with "She wasn't present in the Meta-World until X scene." But how are we evaluating that a Meta-Character doesn't exist before their first appearance?

Quote:
See, my sole point is she wasn't present, as a Meta character, during the time the game was running the parlour scene. As we saw with Battler, not being present during the game means you don't get to know what's happening.
Yea, and? Why wouldn't she exist in the original game's run? She has a continuous back-and-forth with Bern, Dlanor and company, and apparently even Lambdadelta.

Quote:
Actually, my explanations have been as consistent with her character as she's been presented. We know she came to the island already having information about the story. She knew, for a fact, there were no more than 17 people in the island and that Kinzo was already dead. She also already know all the people who were in Rokkenjima. Not only that, but what we saw once Battler showed up was a replay of the game. So, it's entirely possible Piece Erika got the information about everyone being in the parlour by Lambda herself. And, thus, she simply didn't bother checking. Hell, she feel for the same cheap-ass trick in EP6. She could have Battler giver her names and numbers for the people in the sealed rooms, yet she didn't do that.
The thing is if Erika took any actions or asked any questions of Lambdadelta in the first game it should be in the Replay. That's the whole point of the Replay.

As for EP6, she DOES try and drill Battler about it. He's all evasive and shit though and eventually satisfies her with "Everyone is there" and "No one shares names" and whatnot. She honestly tried to see if there was a trick there.

Quote:

(I've got to admit, though, I find it funny that despite having information on the previous games, Erika never seemed to have thought of Kanon's deaths as suspicious. Well, I guess that's not necessarily Erika being dumb, but R07 simply not thinking that far. I think the same about the trial in EP5, and how Beatrice couldn't figure out the trick in red about dead people, when she herself had resorted to similar tricks in the past. That, and that even though she claimed she had committed the crimes, she kept on trying to place the blame on humans throughout the trial.)
This really depends on how Erika was given this information, however. Was she given a full game replay, a bare manuscript, a summary, or what?

Quote:
Uhh.... so, it's fine if the culprit actually was in the Guest House and Erika was watching him?
Hey, we know Erika resorts to double standards! :P

But in all seriousness, she's keeping an eye on Battler because he found the gold. So she doesn't really have a choice.

Quote:
In addition, that doesn't help the idea of her trying to truly search for alibis. She knew the mansion was the place were the people with the motives to do shit were located, yet she never did anything about it. In fact, had it not been for Bern, she'd have been unable to put up an argument had Beatrice brought up the people in the mansion.
I forget; didn't she do some basic seals on the main mansion, too?

Quote:
But Battler was in the mansion, and he hadn't returned to the Guest House until 3:00 AM.
Good point, I forgot about that. But on the other hand, she's one of the kids and she kind of got shuffled off with them. I'm not sure how much she can stretch Detective's Authority, but since no murders or anything happened, I don't think she could have used it to have barged in on the Conference. That seems more like it's Spectator's Authority.

Quote:
Of course, but that doesn't change the fact that Erika also opened a window of opportunity to have Natsuhi framed. The whole thing about her not noticing anything from 12 to 1 was perfectly intended, in addition to not paying the mansion the attention she should have, if she was suspecting Natsuhi.
I don't really think it's that big a deal. She made the trap fairly open, but it was Natsuhi who fell into it.

Quote:
(I also find it odd that no one spoke of the scenes with Natsuhi being black-mailed. We know the players can see scenes even if their pieces aren't there - for example, the scene with the mysterious knock. Yet, no one spoke about the scenes with Natsuhi being called by the man from 19 years ago.)
They're fantasy scenes, why should they?
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Old 2012-01-29, 03:24   Link #27388
Drifloon
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Besides, Bern did comment on the first scene with the man from 19 years ago and asked Lambda to confirm in red that it happened, but she refused. So it's not like they all just ignored it.

By the way, Erika definitely existed in meta before the trial. She's right there with Bern and Lambda arguing about the knock and the letter.
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Old 2012-01-29, 03:27   Link #27389
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Should we really call that a 'fantasy layer'? I mean, it's basically a meta-argument, and Erika shouldn't be seeing Fantasy whatsover. It's more like Meta-shenanigans with Lambda basically using a Battler piece for her extra flair.
Erika shouldn't be seeing Fantasy? Tell that to the game board Erika who begs Bernkastel for stuff in full view of other people, forcing the GM to edit around her.

Anyway, it seems to be the same level that fantasy shenanigans usually take place on, and Lambda's mystery shenanigans amount to fantasy anyway, so I'm happy enough considering it the same layer, no matter what we decide to call it. Things like the study fight took place directly on the game board rather than the meta world, and involved fantasy characters who had been personally participating in actual fantasy scenes earlier.
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Old 2012-01-29, 03:51   Link #27390
Kealym
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
(I've got to admit, though, I find it funny that despite having information on the previous games, Erika never seemed to have thought of Kanon's deaths as suspicious. Well, I guess that's not necessarily Erika being dumb, but R07 simply not thinking that far. I think the same about the trial in EP5, and how Beatrice couldn't figure out the trick in red about dead people, when she herself had resorted to similar tricks in the past. That, and that even though she claimed she had committed the crimes, she kept on trying to place the blame on humans throughout the trial.)
Yeah, I was looking forward to hearing how Erika would try and twist a Natsuhi culprit theory to fit with EP2 or 4.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
In addition, that doesn't help the idea of her trying to truly search for alibis. She knew the mansion was the place were the people with the motives to do shit were located, yet she never did anything about it. In fact, had it not been for Bern, she'd have been unable to put up an argument had Beatrice brought up the people in the mansion.
Indeed. I attribute it to Ryukishi's tendency to make arbitrary strokes to up the stakes. For example, when Dlanor sealed blue truths about the Guesthouse windows in EP6, it really served no purpose except to hold off the obvious answer that Gaap was proposing at that moment.


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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
But Battler was in the mansion, and he hadn't returned to the Guest House until 3:00 AM.
Eh - Erika's intent is to solve crimes, not prevent them. I can only surmise that while her Detective Authority would give her the right to inspect crime scenes and ask for testimony, she can't arbitrarily monitor every human character for every moment of the story - she had no real reason to be at the mansion, and if Lambda decided to throw a curve ball and have Battler be murdered there, Erika would at least still have assurances about everyone (which may or may not include Rosa) in the Guesthouse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Of course, but that doesn't change the fact that Erika also opened a window of opportunity to have Natsuhi framed. The whole thing about her not noticing anything from 12 to 1 was perfectly intended, in addition to not paying the mansion the attention she should have, if she was suspecting Natsuhi.
Hm - when I carry the idea of Erika herself laying that hour-long gap as a trap for Natsuhi, I arrive at the logical extreme that Erika knew Natsuhi was innocent from the very beginning of EP5, and decided to troll her instead of reasoning properly (which would allow her to troll the actual culprit). It seems a bit out of character to me if she pursued a solution she outright KNEW was wrong.

tl;dr I still rather ascribe that hour to Lambda's designs to pick on Natsuhi - she could have, at any point, verified Natsuhi's alibi with the red, after all.

(I also find it odd that no one spoke of the scenes with Natsuhi being black-mailed. We know the players can see scenes even if their pieces aren't there - for example, the scene with the mysterious knock. Yet, no one spoke about the scenes with Natsuhi being called by the man from 19 years ago.)


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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Yes, but in the second one, Erika already had her culprit. She wasn't paying attention to anyone in particular but Natsuhi.
Full circle. This is the same problem of "Kanon behind Godha" - we could just as well say that only Erika and Natsuhi were in that parlor for that particular scene, because Erika stared directly into her eyes the entire time, and didn't first-person-narrate to tell us otherwise. Or, more reasonably phrased, it allows any character to just come and go without indication, which seems ... odd.
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Old 2012-01-29, 04:35   Link #27391
Jaden
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If it wasn't a plot hole, then the explanation is that Erika's performance as the detective was a fraud. She was just Bern's proxy. Well, we kinda knew that anyway, Erika always got treated like a slave.

Also the plot was really centered on the whole thing of hiding Kinzo's death, so it's like Lambda was intentionally revealing Natsuhi's weakness. Maybe she was in it too, and they were all just going to defile the game by framing Natsuhi? Of course, Lambda was also secretly hoping for Battler to realise the underlying truths and rile things up.

So throughout episode 5 Erika wasn't really detecting, except for the epitaph and when Battler challenged her logic. She was just carrying out a premediated plan.
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Old 2012-01-29, 05:20   Link #27392
AuraTwilight
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Erika shouldn't be seeing Fantasy? Tell that to the game board Erika who begs Bernkastel for stuff in full view of other people, forcing the GM to edit around her.
I don't consider Meta and Fantasy to be the same thing, or even to be similar in anything but the most superficial of appearances.

Quote:
So throughout episode 5 Erika wasn't really detecting, except for the epitaph and when Battler challenged her logic. She was just carrying out a premediated plan.
Fridge Brilliance: This is true of all Mystery Novels, since the detective can only follow the author's premeditated plan. Oh shit, son.
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Old 2012-01-29, 07:48   Link #27393
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Will you chill the fuck out? Renall wasn't making light of Battler's suffering or using "uncomfortable" in a passive, minor sense. Renall just speaks in a reserved, held-back tone and vocabulary out of habit from his line of work.
If you can't keep a polite language as far as I'm involved I'm done talking with you.

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That's rather a bit different than the situation in ep5. Again, I think this is a lot easier if we simply conclude that Erika can in fact do what people tell her that she can do, agree that the parlor scene is a problem we don't yet have an adequate solution for in light of this, and continue with the assumption that she is losing not because she is being intentionally misled about her own abilities but because in her arrogance she isn't drawing the proper conclusions from the information her abilities allow her to gather. I have no idea why this is objectionable.
It's not really. If that's the conclusion you're suggesting I can agree it's a possible solution.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Also, while I myself would say Piece-Erika and Meta-Erika are just about the same entity, all the time, Erika starts participating in the Meta layer (or at least, a layer above the Gameboard) in the scene of Kinzo's escape from his study. She talks to Kinzo, Beato, and introduces Dlanor. I forget if she was above the Gameboard earlier than that.
Erika joined the meta-world when she said to Battler she would give him her support and Battler refused to shake her hand. Prior to this Meta-Battler was merely introduced to the piece!Erika on the gameboard by Bern. The scene in which Meta!Erika and Meta!Battler met takes place after everyone went to bed and before the start of the second day. Prior to this scene she's never showed in the meta word and all the reasoning is done by Bern using blue truths against Lambda.

Quote:
"Don't worry. ......Lady Lambdadelta is a far more terrifying opponent than that fool Beatrice, but I'll be giving you plenty of support, so there won't be any problems. ......Together with me, why don't you finally expose the Illusion of the Witch this time?"
".........I don't give a damn about you. I won't acknowledge anything that didn't exist in Beato's games, so I don't need you."
"Is now really the time to act tough? .........Oh well, let's both give it our all, okay? Together, let's tear this Illusion of the Witch apart. *giggle*giggle*!"
Erika acted as though she was asking me to shake her hand.
...Instead of just passively ignoring this, I gave her an active and clear answer by knocking her hand aside.
However in the whole battle in the study between Battler and Erika, Battler is a piece controlled by Lambda so it's evidently a replay of what happened in the previous game.

Quote:
"......As for that last fight, thank you very MUCH. I am grateful for the mercy you showed me at the very END."
"That 'me' wasn't me. ......Lambdadelta was controlling him."
I joined in on the 5th game partway through.
I still haven't participated at 'this point in time'.
So until I do join in, the piece 'me' is probably being controlled by Bernkastel or Lambdadelta.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-01-29 at 08:39.
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Old 2012-01-29, 12:48   Link #27394
Toku
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...where was it implied that Will didn't like the solution? He's pretty darn sympathetic to Shkanon, and it's probably part of why he's so attached to Lion. If anything, it's his own Twenty Rules that he's come to dislike.
It depends on what you think the solution is. At the bare minimum, we know that it violated a whole bunch of Van Dine's rules, but I guess that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't like it, true.

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Again, I think this is a lot easier if we simply conclude that Erika can in fact do what people tell her that she can do, agree that the parlor scene is a problem we don't yet have an adequate solution for in light of this, and continue with the assumption that she is losing not because she is being intentionally misled about her own abilities but because in her arrogance she isn't drawing the proper conclusions from the information her abilities allow her to gather. I have no idea why this is objectionable.
Look, I'll give you two (Renall and AuraTwilight) credit. You're both very intelligent. You've looked at this issue from just about every possible angle. Renall in particular, went and listed every single possibility, and narrowed it down to just a few of them.

And you're not the only ones. We've all beaten this horse to death and beyond. We've tried our best to look at the issue from as many different angles as possible. And this isn't the first time this has been discussed.

I've come up with my own theory about this, some number of pages back. My objective in making it was to create a theory which no one here could prove false. So I asked for everyone's arguments, and you two provided rebuttals which could invalidate it. I tried to overcome those rebuttals, and found that I could not.

However, a certain response to your rebuttals is now possible for me. And that would be something along these lines:
If it was possible to find a solution which satisfies you, I guarantee that you would have found it already. Therefore, at least one of your claims must be false.

My intention is only to have you provide evidence of your arguments which make my theory impossible. If you can provide specific evidence from the Sound Novels, that I am unable to work around, my theory will fail and I will lose this argument.

Normally, "questioning the basis" is not really a viable response. This is because we can ordinarily assume that, even without doing so, a solution is possible. However, in this case, not only have you been unable to find a solution yourselves, but you haven't provided evidence to back up your claims.

Of course, I understand if you don't have time to look for all of that evidence. I wouldn't have time either. In that case, if you refuse to provide evidence, we'll call a truce. Neither of us can disprove the other's arguments, and therefore both of them are left standing, even though they contradict each other.
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Old 2012-01-29, 14:48   Link #27395
GreyZone
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If you compare Erika to Battler, then it would make sense to say, that Erika really became a "meta-being" when the trial started. Because Battler also wasn't "Meta" until the tea party of Legend.

Also there are multiple "layers" of Meta. For example in EP6 there were a Meta-Goerge and and a Meta-Jessica. I will refer to this as "Sub-Meta" from now on.

As you remember all fights in EP1-3 happened in the "tea room", while in EP4 for the first time, Battler entered the real "higher planes" (the round room with the chairs at the corners). In the "???"-tea parties you could always observe the talks between Beato and Bern/Lambda in that room, where at the end one of them was always speaking to Battler directly and he was just sitting in the corner.
Later when Bern/Lambda first appeared before him, he says he "remembers them from somewhere" but he cannot remember them clearly.

But in EP5 he was in that room as a "full fledged player", as you can see from the screenshot from Judoh. So we can assume that:

1. Erika had to go through at least 1 game to become a "Meta-Being" (as she definitly was a Meta-Being in EP6).

2. From EP1 till EP3 Battler was only "Sub-Meta", before he finally could rise to the higher planes. In EP5 the tea room was part of the story as the base for the phantoms, so it defnitly is "Sub-Meta" while the "higher room" is Meta.

There is also the possibility that there are even more "Meta-layers" than 2.


____
Also now that i think about it... in the anime they made the mistake to transfer everything into that "higher room" and not using the tea room aside from the tea parties of Legend and Turn.



sry for overusing "" it's a bad habbit.
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Old 2012-01-29, 15:27   Link #27396
AuraTwilight
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If you can't keep a polite language as far as I'm involved I'm done talking with you.
I'm not the one being impolite, here. You're the one who flipped out and started yelling and freaking out at another person on the board.

I used a single F-bomb. You know from previous experience that I use swear words all the time even when I'm not angry. No disrespect is intended with it, I just don't care. But apparently you didn't bother to remember that so it indicates that you don't respect me as a fellow poster.

Quote:

However, a certain response to your rebuttals is now possible for me. And that would be something along these lines:
If it was possible to find a solution which satisfies you, I guarantee that you would have found it already. Therefore, at least one of your claims must be false.
I'm not sure that logically follows. I can rebutt with Either there's something we're missing because Ryukishi is being esoteric, or maybe it's legitimately a plothole.

Quote:
Normally, "questioning the basis" is not really a viable response. This is because we can ordinarily assume that, even without doing so, a solution is possible. However, in this case, not only have you been unable to find a solution yourselves, but you haven't provided evidence to back up your claims.
In a debate, one is not required to provide their own solution to have fault with, and invalidate someone else's solution or argument. Person A being proven wrong does not make Person B right. Theories can be evaluated on their own merits without an opposing 'truth'.

And questioning the basis is entirely valid in formal debates.

You also forget that I totally provided a solution. Kanon was behind Gohda flashing the bunny ears. Everyone thought it was hilarious so Erika never brought it up infront of Gohda.

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Of course, I understand if you don't have time to look for all of that evidence. I wouldn't have time either. In that case, if you refuse to provide evidence, we'll call a truce. Neither of us can disprove the other's arguments, and therefore both of them are left standing, even though they contradict each other.
We have been able to prove that the "Erika's abilities aren't what they say" theory causes much, much more plot holes than the single plot hole it was created to fix, so even if we can't disprove it, it's a god-awful theory.

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If you compare Erika to Battler, then it would make sense to say, that Erika really became a "meta-being" when the trial started. Because Battler also wasn't "Meta" until the tea party of Legend.
The thing is, Erika was meta for the entirety of EP5, but Battler had to "become" Meta-aware.
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Old 2012-01-29, 16:05   Link #27397
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I used a single F-bomb. You know from previous experience that I use swear words all the time even when I'm not angry. No disrespect is intended with it, I just don't care. But apparently you didn't bother to remember that so it indicates that you don't respect me as a fellow poster.
And you should know using such words is not polite and I don't apprecciate such language. It's you who don't respect me, not the other way around.

And if you want to claim you're free to use such words well, sorry, but I want to be free to chose to not listen them, which definitely destroy any possibility of conversation between the two of us.
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Old 2012-01-29, 16:06   Link #27398
Toku
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm not sure that logically follows. I can rebutt with Either there's something we're missing because Ryukishi is being esoteric, or maybe it's legitimately a plothole.
If it's legitimately a plot hole, that means that reasoning is impossible, which kind of invalidates Umineko. It's the same reason why Logic Errors are fatal if not resolved.

It's also quite hard to imagine that we're missing something when, as I said, you guys already outlined every single possibility, and seem to have rejected all of them, and this isn't the first time this has been discussed. Furthermore, while it's impossible for me to prove that we aren't missing something, it's also impossible for you to prove that we are. In such cases, the Gold Truth becomes useful, which is why I used it.

Quote:
In a debate, one is not required to provide their own solution to have fault with, and invalidate someone else's solution or argument. Person A being proven wrong does not make Person B right. Theories can be evaluated on their own merits without an opposing 'truth'.
True, your lack of a solution doesn't imply that the claims you made against my theory are false. However, it doesn't really help your case of "a solution is possible." So it makes me think that it is far more likely that at least one of your claims is not supported by the Sound Novels.

So I thought this was a reasonable grounds for me to question whether your claims on Erika's reliable perspective are actually supported.

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And questioning the basis is entirely valid in formal debates.
Then it should be no problem if I do it, I guess.

Well, I was just going off what Beatrice said in EP2. I'm not a member of a debate team or anything, so I don't really know.

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You also forget that I totally provided a solution. Kanon was behind Gohda flashing the bunny ears. Everyone thought it was hilarious so Erika never brought it up infront of Gohda.
This is wonderful theory, but even I can see that it doesn't really address the issue at all... It's pretty much the "Kanon has a body in EP5" theory, which you didn't seem to agree with at all.

If Kanon doesn't have a body, and it's actually just someone else making it look like Kanon is flashing bunny ears behind Gohda... Then as far as I can see, you would say that she's not allowed to mistake one thing for something else, so it invalidates Piece Erika's reliable perspective.

^I could be wrong on that last bit. If I am, though, that would make me even more confused, because that seems to be the whole reason why my theory on the Parlor scene was rejected. If that's not the reason why it was rejected, could you explain what exactly the reason was? I'm still confused about it.

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We have been able to prove that the "Erika's abilities aren't what they say" theory causes much, much more plot holes than the single plot hole it was created to fix, so even if we can't disprove it, it's a god-awful theory.
That's exactly why I want to question your claims. "Erika's abilities are what they say" implies that all of these things were in fact said to her.

In particular, what is Detective's Authority? Did they explicitly tell her that her perspective is at the level of Red Truth? Did they explicitly say that there will be absolutely no tricks of any kind played on her perspective? Keep in mind, these tricks don't need to involve Lambda or Bern lying to her. Even something as simple as "she saw/heard something correctly but mistook it for something else that was very similar" or "her vision/hearing was at least partially obstructed by something" is enough.

In other words, can we slip something by without the need for everyone to be playing a cruel trick on her? That's what I want to know.
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Old 2012-01-29, 16:18   Link #27399
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
If it's legitimately a plot hole, that means that reasoning is impossible, which kind of invalidates Umineko. It's the same reason why Logic Errors are fatal if not resolved.
So? Plot holes usually are a sign of the author fucking up. That doesn't mean they don't happen. Ryukishi is happen and Umineko DOES have legitimate flaws. If this is one of them, fine.

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It's also quite hard to imagine that we're missing something when, as I said, you guys already outlined every single possibility, and seem to have rejected all of them, and this isn't the first time this has been discussed. Furthermore, while it's impossible for me to prove that we aren't missing something, it's also impossible for you to prove that we are. In such cases, the Gold Truth becomes useful, which is why I used it.
Indeed. So it's probably a plot hole.

Or Kanon is just standing behind Gohda. Which, while stupid, satisfies everything.

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True, your lack of a solution doesn't imply that the claims you made against my theory are false. However, it doesn't really help your case of "a solution is possible." So it makes me think that it is far more likely that at least one of your claims is not supported by the Sound Novels.
I never really made a 'case' of "A solution is possible." Whether there is one doesn't change that the one you're proposing (Erika being unreliable) doesn't work.

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So I thought this was a reasonable grounds for me to question whether your claims on Erika's reliable perspective are actually supported.
It's in the novel, brah. Every relevant character supports it's existence and treats it as if it's true. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate otherwise, because "Erika has a perfectly reliable perspective" is the default.

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Then it should be no problem if I do it, I guess.

Well, I was just going off what Beatrice said in EP2. I'm not a member of a debate team or anything, so I don't really know.
Yea, Renall was having a bit of a moment about it last night. The two of us have taken formal logic classes, so the way Umineko abuses logic is really grating to both of us.

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This is wonderful theory, but even I can see that it doesn't really address the issue at all... It's pretty much the "Kanon has a body in EP5" theory, which you didn't seem to agree with at all.
Not at all. Either The fingers are Shannon's/Yasu's, or 'Kanon's fingers' are a prop on a stick that's sticking out of Gohda's back pocket.

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If Kanon doesn't have a body, and it's actually just someone else making it look like Kanon is flashing bunny ears behind Gohda... Then as far as I can see, you would say that she's not allowed to mistake one thing for something else, so it invalidates Piece Erika's reliable perspective.
Not at all. I don't think you realize what Erika's perspective is supposed to entail. It's perfectly valid for her to, say, mistake a mannequin behind a curtain as a real person until the curtain's pulled back. The Detective is allowed to make false conclusions, so long as the 'data' is completely accurate. So things like hallucinations or mirages are right out.

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In particular, what is Detective's Authority? Did they explicitly tell her that her perspective is at the level of Red Truth? Did they explicitly say that there will be absolutely no tricks of any kind played on her perspective? Keep in mind, these tricks don't need to involve Lambda or Bern lying to her. Even something as simple as "she saw/heard something correctly but mistook it for something else that was very similar" or "her vision/hearing was at least partially obstructed by something" is enough.
I'm not seeing what the problem is. The Detective's Authority was described to us when the concept was introduced. But like I said above, things like making honest mistakes so long as the data is correct is a legitimate Mystery trick. What Renall and I was arguing against was something along the lines of "Erika saw Kanon but Kanon wasn't there; She saw Kanon because she expected Kanon to be there so the Gameboard shapeshifted" or some stupid bullshit. I don't even remember.

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In other words, can we slip something by without the need for everyone to be playing a cruel trick on her? That's what I want to know.
I think that's what we NECESSARILY have to do. If, say, "Kanon was behind Gohda" is the excuse being given, and it's a falsehood, but there's a trick that makes Erika not investigate, then it works. Maybe Shannon is a fucking ventriloquist and she threw her voice behind Gohda and like coughed or made a comment or something because she's already some bullshit ultra-ninja master of disguise so why not.
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Old 2012-01-29, 17:05   Link #27400
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Eh? We are talking about the scene that introduces Dlanor, and Piece-Beato had to try and reason how Kinzo had escaped the study despite all the seals? That happened well after the First Twilight.
I stand corrected.

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
By the way, Erika definitely existed in meta before the trial. She's right there with Bern and Lambda arguing about the knock and the letter.
Which she utterly failed to figure out I might add. So much for her genius.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Hm - when I carry the idea of Erika herself laying that hour-long gap as a trap for Natsuhi, I arrive at the logical extreme that Erika knew Natsuhi was innocent from the very beginning of EP5, and decided to troll her instead of reasoning properly (which would allow her to troll the actual culprit). It seems a bit out of character to me if she pursued a solution she outright KNEW was wrong.
Nah, that is Erika's character. She also said that Kinzo moved the corpses, which she was well aware was false (not to mention the whole thing about a Kinzo-Natsuhi affair). And when she had to revise that part of her theory- the part she knew was false- she threw a tantrum and refused to until Bern forced her.

Erika went in trying to create and impose a "truth", not to uncover one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm not seeing what the problem is. The Detective's Authority was described to us when the concept was introduced.
As what? Please realize that my contention is not that Erika misunderstood what Detective's Authority is, but that you misunderstand it.

What Detective's Authority is, aside from an ability to "view all crime scenes" and to "perform perfect autopsies", is completely unexplained. Your and Renall's entire argument is founded on beliefs about what this unexplained portion is, but you always evade outlining these beliefs or why you believe them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
But like I said above, things like making honest mistakes so long as the data is correct is a legitimate Mystery trick. What Renall and I was arguing against was something along the lines of "Erika saw Kanon but Kanon wasn't there; She saw Kanon because she expected Kanon to be there so the Gameboard shapeshifted" or some stupid bullshit. I don't even remember.
Right. You don't even know what you're arguing against.
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