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Old 2012-01-29, 02:49   Link #1
Ledgem
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Limited Forums and New Thread Restriction - Why?

I can't believe that I'm the first person to ask about this, but a search didn't turn any previous threads up.

It's been a few years since I used AnimeSuki for anime discussion (ironically). Lately I've been getting back to it, but the series subforums feel... sterile. Each one follows a similar pattern, having threads for each episode, major characters, music, the manga (if applicable), and so on. I can't help but feel that unlimited thread creation would make some of these subforums feel more lively, and perhaps that they'd get more activity.

Full disclosure: I'm strictly doing older series. Episode discussion threads are pretty much only applicable when the episodes are fresh. I also wouldn't expect the forums to be bursting with activity even if there were no thread restrictions. However, it seems as if many of the threads in those forums are only applicable when the series is fairly new, and then activity overall peters out. People have an aversion to jumping into long, established threads. Furthermore, the time span between posts in those threads becomes lengthy, to the point where no conversation is really going on - people either reply to much older posts and don't receive a reply, or they just drop their post and don't return.

I'm not requesting that this be changed, but I'm curious as to why such a regulation was put in place. For very popular series (particularly those that attract a lot of younger members), I can understand that the restrictions cut down on what would probably amount to spam and dozens of repeat posts. But for lower-traffic series, or series that are past their prime, what's the purpose?
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Old 2012-01-29, 05:40   Link #2
Archon_Wing
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If I were to speculate, there is a tendency to make redundant threads that clog up the forum. If you look at general, the same (frequently crappy-- insert moe debate here) topic gets recycled often. There is also a huge tendency for certain undesirable topics (typically shipping) that devolve without fail into pointless shitfests where people flame each other.

Although I tend to support free speech as much as possible, there are just certain topics that almost never lead to anything good and are frequently repetitive. Some forums for example disallow religion debates because of the flammability.

I don't necessarily agree with whatever the reason is or the fact this system exists, but I can see that there a number of legitimate reasons (one including just being too painful to try and moderate) It's also easier to make the rules uniform across all animu subforums for consistency.*

*Cannot speak for this forum, of course. I am just expressing the strength of the current system.
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Old 2012-01-29, 05:47   Link #3
Masuzu
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I used to question this too--then I looked at mangafox.
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Old 2012-01-29, 07:14   Link #4
felix
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I agree with Ledgem. Maybe we need the restrictions but the current system is just really killing the possibility of new topics, which seems to just make the forums themselvs dumber.

I mean yeah, you have random crap threads in General, but you also have really smart threads in General and everything has to start somewhere and it might not be the "image of perfection" the thread proposal require but if you just fobid everything you'll never get anything good either; which means the series forums are pretty much just a collection of episode threads; maybe a manga thread and image thread (if those are actually relevant). Since really what it's saying is "posts are allowed, but topics aren't" so how can you exapect anything but complete randomness when you forbid the things that are actually meant to add order.

There's also an additional consequence to this. Initially, back when this was initially concieved in the Shuffle days, people were used to "discussing only episodes in the episode thread" so when you forbid threads everyone still discussed only episodes in the episode threads. Now, because you actually don't have anything BUT episode threads, we periodically get random crap in episode threads. Because we're well past the point where people would think: "this should only be discussed in a seperate topic, instead of brouth up every episode thread". Stupid topics might be stupid, but at least they're really easy to ignore. Garbage in the episode threads, not so easy to ignore. Stupid threads also die out, episode threads on the other hand just conveninently re-hash the same nonsense over and over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Detective-san
I used to question this too--then I looked at mangafox.
What exactly are you talking about? (I don't frequent the forum's there)
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Old 2012-01-29, 07:17   Link #5
Masuzu
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It's difficult to understand what I mean about mangafox without seeing it for yourself, suffice to say that it's pretty bad.
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Old 2012-01-29, 07:18   Link #6
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Detective-san View Post
It's difficult to understand what I mean about mangafox without seeing it for yourself, suffice to say that it's pretty bad.
Until you can explain it properly your argument is baseless and just FUD. (no offense)
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Old 2012-01-29, 07:32   Link #7
Masuzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Until you can explain it properly your argument is baseless and just FUD. (no offense)
Allow me to elaborate, then.

The mangafox forums are full of spam threads which are written incoherently/forum games/clones of old threads. Ofcourse, it doesn't help that the whole place is poorly modded. Such threads are removed if they're made for a popular enough show, but the more obscure ones are easy targets for nonsensical threads which have little to do with the manga.

Then there's the troll infestation, but that's something else.


You can take a look for yourself, not everything there is as I mentioned but it happens way more often there than it does here--simply because we're not allowed to make just any thread anywhere.
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Old 2012-01-29, 07:44   Link #8
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Detective-san View Post
Allow me to elaborate, then.

The mangafox forums are full of spam threads which are written incoherently/forum games/clones of old threads. Ofcourse, it doesn't help that the whole place is poorly modded. Such threads are removed if they're made for a popular enough show, but the more obscure ones are easy targets for nonsensical threads which have little to do with the manga.

Then there's the troll infestation, but that's something else.
I see. But that's the problem with "having forums for everything" and not actually an issue we would have here. Since, we don't actually have forums for everything but only the popular ones.

Those troll/incoherent threads can happen very easily in a fixed format. You just target the General/Episode/Chapter threads.
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Old 2012-01-29, 07:45   Link #9
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So why don't you simply ask a mod for opening a new thread if you really think that a certain issue about an anime needs to be discussed?
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Old 2012-01-29, 07:48   Link #10
felix
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Because opening a new thread comes with a "must prove it's the most awesome thing ever and will change the world" requirement.
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Old 2012-01-29, 07:49   Link #11
hyl
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Well there is no point in opening a new thread for insignificant issues in my opinion, especially if you look at the pointless threads in other forums like mentioned by detective-san: mangafox.
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Old 2012-01-29, 07:55   Link #12
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Well there is no point in opening a new thread for insignificant issues in my opinion.
All the so called "relavant" issues are pretty daft topics to be honest.

And you misunderstand, it's not like I'm saying the topic wouldn't be interesting to me or other fans of the show, it's that the process doesn't involve that, it involves convincing the mods (potentially non-fans) how "awesome it is" which in the end just amounts to a lot of begging... the result is obviously only topics that are "interesting" to both fans and people who don't give a damn and well the results speak for themselvs (hardly any topics are created). Heck if animesuki had started with this system in place, even the topics you have now wouldn't exist, since all of them are just copies of the older system.
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Old 2012-01-29, 07:59   Link #13
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Just the other day I wanted to post the story about the Taiwanese mother whose complaint about an episode of School Rumble resulted in a hefty fine for the TV station. I went to the SR sub-forum and discovered there's no general discussion thread there, just episode threads, an image thread, etc. There's literally no place to post material about the show in general.

I think every sub-forum ought to have at least one general discussion thread. Perhaps that's true now, if it wasn't true at the time SR was released. The shows I watch never achieve the popularity level required for a sub-forum, with the exception of Madoka.

Would this help with your issue, Ledgem?
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Old 2012-01-29, 08:04   Link #14
Masuzu
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^ That particular issue can be placed in the General Anime sub-forum, but I see what you mean.

Though nowadays it would be weird to have a sub-forum without a general discussion.
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Old 2012-01-29, 09:33   Link #15
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I like the current format for new/ongoing series, and ones that only very recently finished, as I think it effectively streamlines discussion, cleans up clutter, and helps facilitate good discussion by focusing people on a few key topics. This is all particularly useful while a show is still a "hot topic" for discussion in the broader anime community.

But I do see Ledgem's point. After awhile, this sort of format can perhaps curtail discussion rather than focus/streamline it in productive ways, as the only people left discussing a show on its series subforum are its most dedicated fans.

Maybe there should be a certain cutoff point, after which an anime series subforum is made open to new threads without needing to persuade a Moderator to post them?


Just an idea. I don't particularly care either way, but I thought it might be worth considering.
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Old 2012-01-29, 10:17   Link #16
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I think that there are some or even a few cases when it's justified for creating a new topic witout the need of a moderator , however it can lead to more opportunities for abuse by removing the limitation.
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Old 2012-01-29, 12:19   Link #17
felix
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It's not abuse, it's just fear. The ONLY issue with the old system (from the perspective of posters) has always only been fanclub threads, and let's face it, it's NOT THAT HARD to get rid of them.
  • we have infractions now
  • we have social groups
It's nowhere near the big deal everyone makes it.

If you know of any other so called "disadvantages" then by all means spit them out. The fear of fanclub threads doesn't even come close in justifying the cost of such a system on discussion. And that's pretty much what officially the system was meant to combat (the only thing!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I like the current format for new/ongoing series, and ones that only very recently finished, as I think it effectively streamlines discussion, cleans up clutter, and helps facilitate good discussion by focusing people on a few key topics. This is all particularly useful while a show is still a "hot topic" for discussion in the broader anime community.
Mai Hime/Otome forum: http://forums.animesuki.com/forumdisplay.php?f=42
Horizon forum: http://forums.animesuki.com/forumdisplay.php?f=116

(note the hime/otome has been converted as well, so you have to go a few pages to see the difference clearly)

In order,
"I think it effectively streamlines discussion, cleans up clutter"
There is only Episode discussion and little else but FORCED character discussion and a few other FORCED discussion. The episode discussion is forced as well but at least it's general.

How is a discussion being in it's own thread cluttered? When you put files on your computer in separate folders do you call it "cluttered"? How exactly is having everything in very broad and generic threads with little indication of what is being discussed at any given point, or what was discussed before (in the inevitable pages of posts) NOT cluttered?

Streamline? You are basically encouraging everything to be in mamoth threads nobody can follow that talk about EVERYTHING. How is it streamlining it? I can't ignore a discussion when it's in the same place as everything else. I can ignore it if it's separate. I can also far easily pick and choose which discussions I want to follow. This is why we have people that don't even follow series forums, every single thread there is so aimless and sterile what's the point of posting. At least the series threads are for discussing the series as a whole and not disecting individual episodes, or characters, and the like.
"and helps facilitate good discussion by focusing people on a few key topics"
Why don't you repeat that a few times and see if it still makes sense.

HOW are you facilitating discussion by killing oportunities of it? You're basically saying "by talking about less, you are talking about more" in the same sentance. How is it easier to discuss things, when what you say may be irrelevant to several other people and what some other people are babling is irrelevant to you. Especially for things like Episode threads which have no set purpose whatsoever and seem to rehash the same arguments over and over and over. Is repatition and ambiguity the new way of having "clear discussion"?

Here's what moderators here would have to say about post quality 6 years ago:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightWish View Post
I don't do this very much but I'm going to partake of a little "thread guidance" moderating... I'm seeing a slow but painful degradation of the post quality in this forum and I don't like it. The off-topic-ness and "one-line" replies in a number of threads here is getting silly. I know the show is coming to an end but that is no excuse!

Keep the topics focused, a number of posts have been deleted for being completely off topic or pointless. This isn't a place for random comments and chatting. Try IRC or PMs for that sort of thing.

Also, try to expand your otherwise "one line" replies or wait until you have something more interesting to say. I've seen fair number of one-liners in this sub-forum. Try to think a little more before posting.... I know it is tempting to jump in with a short comment, congratulatory remark, or so... but they don't really add much, do they? No they don't. Sometimes a short witty reply can make people think and spur interesting debate. Which is fine. However, about half the posts in one of the threads have been short replies with little to recommend them!

We really don't want to delete posts...
Pick a recent show and start counting how many 1-liners we see now with this system which was designed to combat the exact problem it generates. If it's not a one-liner it's usually something that would deserve a thread; but you'll never hear about it since it will just get buried in the thread somewhere. Yey for accessibility of discussion. Unless you're following the thread from the start and it's not a magnet for a lot of praise or hate, threads are basically just worth their lastpage of content as far as discussion goes. Is that what we call streamline these days?
"This is all particularly useful while a show is still a "hot topic" for discussion in the broader anime community."
Oh yes, why discuss anything when it's interesting... makes a lot of sense. You even having to make statements like this that suggests you can't discuss things if it's too popular and you need to kill every possible interesting topic in it to get the 2-chan feel of posting "your opinion" in the episode thread just shows how low series forums have gone. And don't get me wrong, I agree with what you're saying there, in this system that's what needs to be done, since that's how broken it is. Heck, we even have the occasional moderator interventation/topic-close for the sole purpose of killing topics that are too interesting.

It used to be you could have discussion ranging pages, and as many as you wanted and for as long as you wanted, and with as many people as you wanted--and it wouldn't bother anyone since each would have it's own thread. Guess that isn't the case anymore. Just look how often tempers fly with people discussing. You think that would be a issue if things like criticism or hot topics would just be in their own topics instead of cluttered in the episode threads?
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Old 2012-01-29, 12:58   Link #18
Ledgem
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Everything that felix has said so far pretty much echoes my thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
If I were to speculate, there is a tendency to make redundant threads that clog up the forum. If you look at general, the same (frequently crappy-- insert moe debate here) topic gets recycled often. There is also a huge tendency for certain undesirable topics (typically shipping) that devolve without fail into pointless shitfests where people flame each other.
It's true that redundant threads would likely arise. That's a problem that other parts of the forum suffer from, as well, and I figured that it might have been one of the big reasons behind having this restriction (although I'd like to hear it from whichever staff member(s) implemented it for verification).

But "clog up the forum"? Are we pressed for disk space, or is the creation of new threads doing something terrible to the database system? If so, then this is completely necessary. If not, I don't see why this is a problem in moderation. Consider the reason why we dislike clutter: it generally interferes with other conversations (spam threads pushing other valid discussions to the second or later pages of a forum) or splinters conversation (redundant threads). If a thread is old and isn't receiving much traffic, neither redundant or spam threads (which moderators can handle) will be interfering with anything. If anything, they're keeping activity alive.

On the other hand, while the restrictions on the forums probably help to keep healthy discussions going when a forum receives tremendous activity, it seems to me that they're stifling activity on older series. This is a discussion forum, after all - aren't all rules and operations done in order to facilitate discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
I don't necessarily agree with whatever the reason is or the fact this system exists, but I can see that there a number of legitimate reasons (one including just being too painful to try and moderate)
In theory, opening up the older forums as a free-for-all for thread discussion might create more moderator work. All the same, it seems to me that having all new thread requests going through moderators also generates a fair amount of work. And to be honest, if the moderators are not receiving tons of requests for new threads every day, then that's a worrying sign in itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I think every sub-forum ought to have at least one general discussion thread. Perhaps that's true now, if it wasn't true at the time SR was released. The shows I watch never achieve the popularity level required for a sub-forum, with the exception of Madoka.

Would this help with your issue, Ledgem?
While I think it would help, I don't foresee it going as far as I would hope.

We all use the forums, so think to yourself: when you see a thread with even 15 pages' worth of discussion, what is your initial reaction? I'll tell you that personally, I feel a bit put off. It means that there's probably a long, on-going conversation, and I don't want to read through everything from the beginning to join in. Alternately (and what I frequently observe), it means that there are fragmented conversations occurring side-by-side in one thread, unrelated to each other, with occasional replies that are completely unrelated from passer-byers.

I'm a bit obsessive-compulsive, so I understand the desire to keep the forums clean, organized, and orderly. These threads are anything but orderly. They're a chaotic mess that all too frequently devolves into what I like to think of as a comment heap, instead of a real discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Maybe there should be a certain cutoff point, after which an anime series subforum is made open to new threads without needing to persuade a Moderator to post them?
I like this idea. Still, before anything is changed, I'd be interested to know what the reasoning is for having things remain as they are.
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Old 2012-01-29, 13:53   Link #19
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On requesting new threads. I might point out that I requested a thread in the Penguindrum forum dedicated to discussing the symbolism. Hardly an unreasonable request I'd think. I never got a response.

If you can't get a symbolism thread for a show like Penguindrum then I think the restrictions on new threads is far too high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I like the current format for new/ongoing series, and ones that only very recently finished, as I think it effectively streamlines discussion, cleans up clutter, and helps facilitate good discussion by focusing people on a few key topics. This is all particularly useful while a show is still a "hot topic" for discussion in the broader anime community.

But I do see Ledgem's point. After awhile, this sort of format can perhaps curtail discussion rather than focus/streamline it in productive ways, as the only people left discussing a show on its series subforum are its most dedicated fans.

Maybe there should be a certain cutoff point, after which an anime series subforum is made open to new threads without needing to persuade a Moderator to post them?


Just an idea. I don't particularly care either way, but I thought it might be worth considering.
I think that would be a decent idea. After all, the main reason to not allow the creation of new threads is that it tends to bury threads that we want to remain visible on the top page (such as new episode threads), leading to duplication and off topic threads.

However, once no new material is being produced the amount of comments and postings drop rather drastically in a series forum. The problem is no longer too many new threads, but a lack of new threads. Allowing the general public to post threads on topics that interest them is more likely to produce benefits then harm.
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Old 2012-01-29, 16:36   Link #20
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I think the general direction of the forum is and will continue to go in the opposite direction of what is being requested here, for better or worse.

Keep in mind that the principle of this forum is: one topic, one thread. In general terms, most anime series only have one thread for all related discussion. Some franchises are so popular and/or their discussion possibilities so diverse that these are granted sub-forums to divide the single thread into multiple threads. We have a patterned way of doing this, with an allowance for unique threads by request. This generally works well while the series is airing and traffic is high. After a certain time after the show airs, interest in the show dwindles down to maybe a core group of regulars who keep checking in from time-to-time. And then, eventually, a sub-forum reaches "end of life" when it is retired, and almost all threads are locked leaving only a few key threads open, basically bringing us back to the "one topic, one thread" origin.

The situation being alluded to here is one that is rare but does happen occasionally: an older series sub-forum that still has a rather strong core following that wants to keep the sub-forum alive and sees the freer creation of threads as a way of "breathing new life" into the dying forum. Here's the bad news: we will likely not adequately fulfill the desires of the show's remaining fans in this situation. In the coming weeks, you will see some sub-forums be retired that still have some of this regular traffic in certain threads, and the remaining active threads may, in some cases, actually be moved back to the regular parts of the forum and out of the sub-forum, which will be retired and preserved as more of an archive.

We see our general "life cycle" for a sub-forum revolving around a show's TV airing, and the move to simulcasts has accelerated the cycle (that was previously prolonged by licensing and waiting for the official English DVD/BD release; even the cycle for this has accelerated considerably). While we do want to continue to provide a place where all anime can be discussed, we don't believe we can do what needs to be done to keep older sub-forums alive and thriving after the primary wave of interest has died down, and have decided that we will not make it part of our primary mission to solve that problem.

So what of the needs of these lingering hardcore fans who would like to keep their community alive? We would like to position Social Groups as one opportunity for this. As you may have seen, we recently made some additions to the functionality available in social groups that should hopefully make it more useful. We recognize that Social Groups aren't perfect, and they aren't the same as the Forums proper, but we think they can still provide a good place for fans of the show to gather and more-freely discuss a show even after primary interest has died down. But of course, making this work depends entirely on the effort of the fans involved.

As for stray topics that don't fit into one of the existing categories but aren't worth a thread on their own, we do indeed want people to use the General Discussion thread if one exists. Granted, this shouldn't be a repository for off-topic chatter, but is suitable for on-topic conversations that don't properly fit in one of the other threads. I suppose it's possible a General Discussion thread doesn't exist for some shows, and if that's the case I guess let us know and we can try to create one.

I realize that this position isn't going to match everyone's ideals about how they'd like to see the Forum run. But, by the same token, we don't believe that we can be all things to all people. I hope that this post helps explain the way we view sub-forums and the role we're trying to play in this (and those roles we admit, by design, we will not be able to fulfill as well).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
On requesting new threads. I might point out that I requested a thread in the Penguindrum forum dedicated to discussing the symbolism. Hardly an unreasonable request I'd think. I never got a response.

If you can't get a symbolism thread for a show like Penguindrum then I think the restrictions on new threads is far too high.
Sometimes not getting a response doesn't necessarily mean it was rejected. It may very well mean that it was just missed. If a request goes without a response for a long period of time (a few days? a week?) feel free to contact a member of the staff to bring it to their attention. It may also help to provide a potential opening post for the thread so that the topic is clearly-defined and understood to the staff reviewing the request (who may not all be intimately familiar with the show in every case). In cases where specialist knowledge is needed, we do try to work as a team to make sure the people most knowledgeable about a subject are able to provide their input. But if the topic request is vague or not clear, it may cause one person reviewing the request to be unsure of the right answer and hope that someone else will have a better idea about whether the request makes sense.

So all that to say... make sure the request is very clearly-defined, and do remind us if you think we missed your request. A lack of response doesn't necessarily mean no.
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