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Old 2004-12-19, 21:05   Link #1
RyuHayabusa
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Divx/Fansubs request

I don't know if this is the right place to post this topic, but I would like to make a request or a suggestion concerning subtitles for future releases of anime series along with the Divx codec version used. As some of you may know, there are new DVD players in the market that will play Divx files. If you guys don't know what I'm talking about, go here:
http://www.divx.com/hardware/

Now, the thing is, I have played some of the anime files on it and it has played fine, but damn, the subs are either a)readeable, that it is, it can be read above the end of the T.V like this here example:

---------------------------
|
|
|
|
| subs go here
----------------------------

but from what I've seen, like Futakoi, the fansubbers have done it like this:
---------------------------
|
|
|
|
|
-----subs go here-----

I hope that in the future, fansubbers should follow example a because 1)most people now will buy the DVD/Divx players to watch anime fansubs on the TV instead of the computer and it will make reading a lot easier. In other words, please take consideration on what the audience will watch anime in the future.

and I hope that with the newerst version of Divx, fansubbers do encode the files really well, because of said future market. Thanks.
*hopes that this thread doesn't get deleted*
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Old 2004-12-19, 22:08   Link #2
Sergejack
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I watch animes on my computer and I hate when subtitles are too high.

You watch the animes on your computer and later buy the DVD.
So everyone is happy for ever and ever.
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Old 2004-12-19, 22:22   Link #3
jpwong
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Seeing as how these are designed to be viewed on your computer, I doubt anyone will do anything. If it does bother you, get virtualdub and place some border around the video, recode it and then burn it.

Quote:
In other words, please take consideration on what the audience will watch anime in the future.
Unfortunatly I think the vast majority of people use their computer. It's far more universal than a DivX player (which also by chance might not play XVID videos properly which is what many fansubbers are using). If you want to watch on TV, either a) recode the videos yourself, b) get a TV out adaptor or c) wait for the official DVDs to appear and go buy them.

And again, most groups I've seen are using XVID. And there as far as I know, no players that can officially play xvid 100% (just those that claim they can).
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Old 2004-12-19, 23:25   Link #4
exedore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuHayabusa
I hope that in the future, fansubbers should follow example a because 1)most people now will buy the DVD/Divx players to watch anime fansubs on the TV instead of the computer and it will make reading a lot easier. In other words, please take consideration on what the audience will watch anime in the future.
I've got one of these players too (the Philips DVP-642) and really do love being able to watch stuff on my 29" TV instead of my 17" computer monitor.

That said, a lot of groups have openly said that they don't care about people watching their stuff on these devices, some with quite a bit of hositility. While a PC with TV-Out can have the output resized to compensate for overscan (as can Xbox Media Centre, IIRC), the Philips offers no such support, which is rather annoying.

What I'd like to see here (and would be a good compromise IMHO) is a listing of groups and projects which are and aren't overscan compatible with their subs and encodes. Most stuff by my group is safe on settop MP4 players, but a handful of God Mars episodes and the first couple of Enemy's the Pirates! have QPEL, so they need to be re-encoded to work with the player (I'm going to redo and repost them at SOME point, once I've got time). All of our subs are overscan safe, though.

Central Anime encodes are also overscan safe, but again, have QPEL and are of a funky filesize so they need to be re-encoded to work on settops.

AiA GaoGaiGar is overscan safe, but the lyrics get a bit low. The Might Gaine subs are overscan friendly as well. Finally, anything done with a widescreen release that has the subtitles inside the widescreen will, for obvious reasons, be OK.

Hope this helps.
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Old 2004-12-19, 23:32   Link #5
bayoab
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1) DIVX can play back XVID content just fine as long as no hacks are used. So no codec change is needed.
2) If the group wants you to watch them on anything, they will compensate for the 10% overscan, otherwise, they are purposely ignoring doing that.
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Old 2004-12-19, 23:48   Link #6
exedore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab
2) If the group wants you to watch them on anything, they will compensate for the 10% overscan, otherwise, they are purposely ignoring doing that.
Read: On a 640x480 encode, the top/bottom margins should be 48 pixels, and the L/R should be 64. You can fudge it a couple if you want, as that compensates for both the general safe *and* title safe areas, but I wouldn't risk it.
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Old 2004-12-20, 01:06   Link #7
kagelump
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and then... people in the future start complaining that the subtitles on their HDTV is purposely set too high...
seriously, if you really want to watch it on TV, you can go to virtualdub, and do Xvid simple ~6000 kbs with resize 576x432 added borders to 640x480, and it'll probably work just fine
I think the raw cappers did cut off 10% overscan when encoding/capturing, as it didn't look right when i watched it directly on TV without modifications, putting subs higher in the final fansubs will result in about 18% from the bottom of where the raw is supposed to be, and possibly some of the main content.
If the divx-dvd players can't resize on their own... they may not be ready....

just my $.02
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Old 2004-12-20, 04:43   Link #8
kuru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpwong
Seeing as how these are designed to be viewed on your computer, I doubt anyone will do anything.
Is this is a rule set by God that can't be changed ?

I completely agree with RyuHayabusa and don't see why couldn't a few groups give some consideration to his request (that probably is the request of an ever increasing number of fans as the these players become more popular).

Personally I have a setup that allow me to connect the computer to the TV set and I'll always watch my fansubs on the TV.... but my Philips DVD-player with divix playing capabilities give me much better video quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpwong
If you want to watch on TV, either a) recode the videos yourself, b) get a TV out adaptor or c) wait for the official DVDs to appear and go buy them.
Are you a speakperson for all the groups in the world ? If you have a group you can say "I don't care and my group won't do it" but I don't think you have the right to answer for every single group. Several of them already place the subs high enough to be seen with a DVD-player.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jpwong
And again, most groups I've seen are using XVID. And there as far as I know, no players that can officially play xvid 100% (just those that claim they can).
My Philips player only talks about divx in the manual, but plays xvid perfectly.
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Old 2004-12-20, 04:48   Link #9
Sakaki-
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuru
Is this is a rule set by God that can't be changed ?

I completely agree with RyuHayabusa and don't see why couldn't a few groups give some consideration to his request (that probably is the request of an ever increasing number of fans as the these players become more popular).

Personally I have a setup that allow me to connect the computer to the TV set and I'll always watch my fansubs on the TV.... but my Philips DVD-player with divix/ivix playing capabilities give me much better video quality.

When you play it you should be able to resize it unless you have a bad player my friends cheap one that costed around 50 bucks can do it so why cant yours.
Go figure we encode it to be watched on computer we wouldent take into consideration what diffrent hardware players are capable of...

And your players dosent in any way make the video look better it's just that your tv kind of smooths out stuff when displaying it due to how it projects the image.

Take Care
Sakaki
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Old 2004-12-20, 06:08   Link #10
SCR512
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Just use an Xbox with XBMC... plays everything
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Old 2004-12-20, 16:35   Link #11
SirCanealot
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Yup. Again, I say, if people want to go:
"OMFG, THIS DVD PLAYER PLAYZ DIVX!!!!! *BUYS*", then please die
Do your research: find a DVD player that can compensate for overscan, buy an X-Box, or buy a PC for TV-Out useage.

It's not like I don't suffers: my 16:9 TV in 16:9 mode must have like 100 pixels overscan. Do you see me complaining to groups? Nope: I'm just gonna buy a new TV in 2005 ^^
If I can find a job...

Quote:
Personally I have a setup that allow me to connect the computer to the TV set and I'll always watch my fansubs on the TV.... but my Philips DVD-player with divix playing capabilities give me much better video quality.
Virtually no difference in decoding via software or DVDPlayer. You must have better connections to your DVD player, or something like that.
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Old 2004-12-20, 18:02   Link #12
ChoBaka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exedore
I've got one of these players too (the Philips DVP-642) and really do love being able to watch stuff on my 29" TV instead of my 17" computer monitor.
I've been looking for a player like the Philips DVP-642... would you recommend it? I will be using it on a 32 inch Sony Trinitron that was made in the late 1990s. I wouldn't mind being able to view the occasional DivX file on my TV without having to hook up my computer to it.
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Old 2004-12-20, 18:11   Link #13
ChoBaka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exedore
I've got one of these players too (the Philips DVP-642) and really do love being able to watch stuff on my 29" TV instead of my 17" computer monitor.
I've been looking for a player like the Philips DVP-642... would you recommend it? I will be using it on a 32 inch Sony Trinitron that was made in the late 1990s. I wouldn't mind being able to view the occasional DivX file on my TV without having to hook up my computer to it.
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Old 2004-12-20, 20:11   Link #14
Sakaki-
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChoBaka
I've been looking for a player like the Philips DVP-642... would you recommend it? I will be using it on a 32 inch Sony Trinitron that was made in the late 1990s. I wouldn't mind being able to view the occasional DivX file on my TV without having to hook up my computer to it.

I would recomend the Medion MD40814 wich cna play divx and xvid.
Suport for the following types of disk formats: DVD, VCD, SVCD, CD-Audio, MP3-CD, MP3-DVD, JPEG-CD, JPEG-DVD
And the following medias: CD, DVD, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW, CD-R, CD-RW
Following file formats: MPEG-1, MPEG-2, MPEG-4, DivX 3.11, DivX 4.x, DivX 5.x, Xvid
Sound: Dolby Digital, DTS
Video: RGB, supports progressive scan
Video outputs: RGB Scart, S-Video, Composite.
Sound outputs: Optical, koaksial, stereo, surround 5.1.

And this players costs around 50€

Take Care
Sakaki-
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Old 2004-12-20, 22:02   Link #15
DekaMaster
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Fansubbers will put the subs where they see fit. Digisubbing is not done for you new dvd player convience. You should be thankful that fansubbing gets done at all. With this new anti-fansubbing wind going around who knows how long you will have to enjoy it.
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Old 2004-12-21, 00:30   Link #16
exedore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChoBaka
I've been looking for a player like the Philips DVP-642... would you recommend it? I will be using it on a 32 inch Sony Trinitron that was made in the late 1990s. I wouldn't mind being able to view the occasional DivX file on my TV without having to hook up my computer to it.
I have a pretty low end TV (got it used off Craigslist), and everything the Philips outputs looks fine to me. For $70, I've got a region free PAL/NTSC player that does MP4 *and* comes from a major, internationally recognised and licensed brand name (All CD and DVD player manufacturers are supposed to pay royalties for spec implementation to the respective forums, which are both managed by Philips). The only real problems with it are that it won't do QPEL, it does choke up if stuff has a bitrate spike (for example, Live Action Cutie Honey from Spork (great move, great subs) stuttered a bit on the massive CG Henshin up front as well as one of the animated sequences in the opening), and the lack of overscan compensaton Also, the PAL->NTSC conversion isn't the greatest (it's more blatant when I run stuff off to tape than when I just watch), but it's more than serviceable (you won't get better on a consumer grade player). Considering the alternatives of dropping a couple hundred on a tower to leave in place, hauling hardware back and forth, or leaving my gear up to OSS hackers (what's that? Still no DVD menu or subtitle support in XBMC?), I'd say it's the way to go.

Last edited by exedore; 2004-12-21 at 00:50.
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Old 2004-12-21, 21:33   Link #17
Crowley
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Wow, he didn't even research why some subs are lower. In example "a" you probably had a chunk of video cut off, it's just the subs were so ridiculously high that they were still visible.
This has nothing to do with the subber at all; go learn how to burn videos properly.
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Old 2004-12-22, 03:08   Link #18
CompShrink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
Wow, he didn't even research why some subs are lower. In example "a" you probably had a chunk of video cut off, it's just the subs were so ridiculously high that they were still visible.
This has nothing to do with the subber at all; go learn how to burn videos properly.
Don't talk about things in a negative matter when you're the one who is uninformed. If you even read all the posts on this thread you know some groups put the subs high because they know TVs cut off some image, aka overscan.

Also, not all TVs have overscan. Mine doesn't. It wasn't a rediculusly expensive one either, I think it was a bit above $200, JVC 32", got it about a year ago.

Considering not all TVs overscan, and some stand-alone Divx players have overscan compensation, just be smart enough to get one of the two able to compensate for overscan. Or reencode with virtualdub and add black bars around it.

Three very reasonable solutions, so having very high subs is unneeded. It's qalso fansubs, they are in theory by ethical standards not perminate.

There's the forth solution, buy DVDs.
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Old 2004-12-22, 04:14   Link #19
tugatosmk
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Exclamation

Well, obviously many of you don't live in countries with subtitled foreign TV shows, like Portugal or Holland. And in those shows, the subtitlers often place the subtitles a bit higher than normal.
And remember: they're professionals.
This may sound bad, but let's look at it another perspective:

Many people complain that high subtitles can bother the visualization of the main scene (somewhere towards the middle of the screen). This is true, of course.
But what about "eye-shifting"? (With this I mean the how long the eyes of the viewer must divert from the central scene to the "bottomed" subtitles.) The more the subtitles are placed on the bottom, the harder and tiring will be to follow the show. You know... "watch center screen, divert to bottom, divert again to center".
This effect is enhanced even more when the subtitles are just too quick to read, like unfortunately most fansubbers usually do (when the subtitles' timing is EXACTLY THE SAME as the dialog timing).

I personnaly prefer the subtitles a bit higher than a bit lower. After all, I also have a divx player and sometimes have the same problem with my standard TV.



But somehow many of you are getting either offended or bothered with the suggestion made firstly by RyuHayabusa and then by other users afterwards. Others are replying in a hostile way. And I don't see the reason for it.
Let's not forget that what RyuHayabusa stated was merely a SUGGESTION. No one is trying to force anything on anyone. It's just an opinion.
This isn't a "must do / must change" thread. But if no one speaks, then nothing will be done (in the case of the fansubbers that aren't aware of this or didn't place the subtitles on the bottom on purpose, of course). But the final decision is their's, and no one else can change it.
I know I'm not a moderator, but I'm seeing too many "flames" here, and it doesn't exactly give a "good mood" to the thread.
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Old 2004-12-22, 11:21   Link #20
kuru
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content deleted (didn't find how to delete a post)

Last edited by kuru; 2004-12-22 at 11:33.
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