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Old 2012-01-28, 21:40   Link #121
Akashin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I think when Sasuke lost his Cursed Seal and with it his last link to Oro, he lost most of Oro's abilities. Definitely he lost the regeneration. He probably lost summoning snakes too. I'm guessing the CS may have doubled as his contract with the snakes but that was never made clear one way or the other.
Did we ever see any hint that this might be the case though? Until we're told explicitly that this was how it was, I was under the impression it was safe to say he signed a blood contract during the timeskip. In which case, him losing the ability to use them doesn't really make sense.
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Old 2012-01-29, 00:57   Link #122
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^The contract would have probably been with Manda (since he is the "Boss"). And, Since Manda is dead (killed by Sasuke (kind of)...which has to matter some how), it is unclear if the contract would continue or not.

That being said, symbolically the contract is destroyed (in more ways than one). So, I doubt we will ever see Sasuke summon a snake again.
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Old 2012-01-29, 06:16   Link #123
Akashin
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Oh there's no doubt about that; I'm not saying there's a good chance he'll summon a snake again or anything. I was just wondering why there's all sorts of talk about summons without blood contracts. The contract being with Manda makes sense, though, as a means of explaining what happened to it.
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Old 2012-01-29, 06:27   Link #124
xKeir
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Well technically speaking the Ninja's make a contract WITH the Animals , not only one of them/their boss. So even if Manda died he would still be able to summon snakes.

So the contract between Sasuke and the snakes pretty much is still in existence. It wasn't really specified whether or not one can make contracts with multiple Animals but seeing how everyone seems to have only one summoning type chances are they can't.

That being said most likely Sasuke ended his contract with the Snakes and made one with the Hawks/Eagles after he decided to stop liaising himself with 'Snakes' and fly 'free' like a 'Hawk'.

Pretty much pointless to debate about all this since Sasuke just went expecto patronum and bam a Hawk summoning came out of no where.
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Old 2012-01-29, 11:02   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
Did we ever see any hint that this might be the case though? Until we're told explicitly that this was how it was, I was under the impression it was safe to say he signed a blood contract during the timeskip. In which case, him losing the ability to use them doesn't really make sense.
When Sasuke fights Itachi he summons a snake and it comes directly out of his cursed seal. He also doesn't make the usual small offering of blood that's required for summoning allies that are bound by a blood contract.

Also Sasuke summoned Manda with a tattoo/seal on his left forearm shown after his battle with Deidara. After his fight with Itachi where he loses Oro's powers, the tattoo is gone. Of course, Suigetsu used a vial of Sasuke's blood to summon Manda so a blood pact does seem to be part of the contract, but I think there's more conditions to it than typical animal summons.

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Originally Posted by xKeir View Post
Pretty much pointless to debate about all this since Sasuke just went expecto patronum and bam a Hawk summoning came out of no where.
Yes, it is pretty pointless. Though a hawk is pretty powerful summon. It means Sasuke can go airborne anytime he chooses and stay out of range. Not to mention the keen vision and ability to fly makes them excellent scouts. Sasuke could stay informed of everything happening around him for miles. It'd also be cool if he had a Roc boss summon. I don't expect to see him making much use of them though. It'll probably be mostly EMS stuff now.
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Old 2012-01-29, 12:28   Link #126
Artimus_Prime
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Question...does anyone have any insight into the designs on Naruto's new cloak? i mean are we able to make legitimate inferences on narutos relationship to the sage of 6 based on these new patterns??
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Old 2012-01-29, 12:54   Link #127
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by xKeir View Post
Well technically speaking the Ninja's make a contract WITH the Animals , not only one of them/their boss. So even if Manda died he would still be able to summon snakes.
that's my understanding of it. I'm not sure why some people think it's a contract with just 1 individual snake.

Quote:
That being said most likely Sasuke ended his contract with the Snakes and made one with the Hawks/Eagles after he decided to stop liaising himself with 'Snakes' and fly 'free' like a 'Hawk'.
that's a great way to put it. even if it doesn't make sense logically that he lost the snake summons, I think this is the implication based on the hebi/taka storyline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
When Sasuke fights Itachi he summons a snake and it comes directly out of his cursed seal.
that was actually orochimaru. sasuke didn't summon that. he was out of chakra and orochimaru took control. it was all part of itachi's plan for that to happen

Quote:
He also doesn't make the usual small offering of blood that's required for summoning allies that are bound by a blood contract.
we don't know this. I think it's reasonable to assume he made blood contracts like everyone else.

Quote:
Also Sasuke summoned Manda with a tattoo/seal on his left forearm shown after his battle with Deidara. After his fight with Itachi where he loses Oro's powers, the tattoo is gone.
I'm sure sasuke can manage without a tattoo. I think that was just for convenience. also, are you sure it's gone? I haven't been paying attn to it frankly, but I think it's under his arm band so we can't know for sure.
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Old 2012-01-29, 13:00   Link #128
Akashin
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
that was actually orochimaru. sasuke didn't summon that. he was out of chakra and orochimaru took control. it was all part of itachi's plan for that to happen
He's talking about earlier. On page 9 of 387 you can quite clearly see a snake burst out of his Cursed Seal (and he was engaged with Itachi at the time, so no blood offering), and yeah, I'm not quite sure what to make of that.
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Old 2012-01-29, 13:05   Link #129
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
He's talking about earlier. On page 9 of 387 you can quite clearly see a snake burst out of his Cursed Seal (and he was engaged with Itachi at the time, so no blood offering), and yeah, I'm not quite sure what to make of that.
oh ok. well 2 things about that. I dont think its a summoning. its more like a ninjutsu tech like when orochimaru and anko use their snakehands techs. also it was done in tsukiomi so its all a genjutsu anyway
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Old 2012-01-29, 19:27   Link #130
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why is half of 9 tails the equivalent of 7 bijuus?
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Old 2012-01-29, 20:26   Link #131
Ero-Senn1n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
Question...does anyone have any insight into the designs on Naruto's new cloak? i mean are we able to make legitimate inferences on narutos relationship to the sage of 6 based on these new patterns??
The problem is that we don't know how exactly the sage of 6 paths looked like. We know Naruto has the same looking necklace that he had, also his chakra-hair is similar to those things on the sage's head. But the full kyuubi form didn't bring out any more resemblance. Maybe if he uses sage mode too, then there will be something more.

There are hints that both Sasuke's and Naruto's powerups are going in the direction of becoming the sage of 6 paths, but i guess their powers will be similar to the power of the 2 sons of the sage by the time they have their big fight. As Tobi said it is a fated fight, the fight between the elder and the younger brother of the sage continues with them.

On the picture of the elder son we see the rinnegan eyes, and if Kabuto and Orochimaru really believe that Sasuke can reach the rinnegan without messing around his body (apparently Madara messed with his own body, in one scene while fighting against the kages he looks at his body checking something, seems like his rinnegan is artificially made probably using some implanted DNA of the 1st hokage), then Sasuke can become very similar to the elder son of the sage.

On the picture of the younger son we see him having a chakra shroud, much like Naruto has in kyuubi mode. The younger brother has a forehead protector but the older doesn't have, same with Naruto and Sasuke.
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Old 2012-01-29, 20:52   Link #132
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
On the picture of the elder son we see the rinnegan eyes, and if Kabuto and Orochimaru really believe that Sasuke can reach the rinnegan without messing around his body (apparently Madara messed with his own body, in one scene while fighting against the kages he looks at his body checking something, seems like his rinnegan is artificially made probably using some implanted DNA of the 1st hokage), then Sasuke can become very similar to the elder son of the sage.
I think that madara achieved rinnegan on his own before he died. when he was resurrected, kabuto said he powered him up with the 1st's dna. madara looked down then to see something we dont know about yet and then he used mokuton. so I didnt see any correlation between kabuto's powerup and madara having rinnegan. plus madara wanted to test out mokuton. he already knew how to use rinnegan
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Old 2012-01-30, 05:22   Link #133
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Originally Posted by qwertyuiopz View Post
why is half of 9 tails the equivalent of 7 bijuus?
Because he's with the main character, no?

Yeah, it actually doesn't make a lot of sense how half of the Nine-tails is that powerful.
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Old 2012-01-30, 12:53   Link #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertyuiopz View Post
why is half of 9 tails the equivalent of 7 bijuus?
Because the ten-tails wasn't split into equal parts. Otherwise they'd all have one tail. Check the bijuu thread for more info.
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Old 2012-01-30, 14:14   Link #135
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
I think that madara achieved rinnegan on his own before he died. when he was resurrected, kabuto said he powered him up with the 1st's dna. madara looked down then to see something we dont know about yet and then he used mokuton. so I didnt see any correlation between kabuto's powerup and madara having rinnegan. plus madara wanted to test out mokuton. he already knew how to use rinnegan
It was stated that Madara's fight with the 1st hokage was because he wanted to obtain a DNA sample (or somthing like that). If Madara obtained the rinnegan as a healthy person by some powerup he would have returned to Konoha to show his powers. So it seems to me that he tried to obtain it by messing with his own body and the DNA of the 1st hokage, it seems all that took a long time. It is also a question if his death was because of that. Usually people who experiment on their own bodies do not have as good results as nature has. Look at Orochimaru or Sasori or Danzou, in the end they failed and their failure was partly because their artifical bodies failed at some point. I think maybe Orochimaru and Kabuto realized that a naturally existing rinnegan is better than some human experiments, and that is the reason why they are both after Sasuke's body.

Also when Kabuto brags about how smart he was Madara tells him it was not Kabuto who gave him these rinnegan powers.
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Old 2012-01-30, 22:53   Link #136
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
It was stated that Madara's fight with the 1st hokage was because he wanted to obtain a DNA sample (or somthing like that).
hmm. I missed/forgot this. if you wouldn't mind, can you tell me which chapter it's in? it seems fishy because if he had the first's dna in the past before he died, then he surely would have used mokuton before his resurrection. he treated mokuton like something new he had to test out.

Quote:
also when Kabuto brags about how smart he was Madara tells him it was not Kabuto who gave him these rinnegan powers.
this makes sense if madara acheived rinnegan on his own before he died which is what I think happened.
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Old 2012-01-31, 02:34   Link #137
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Gods, I wonder who he had to kill to get the Rinnegan--his grandmother? :X
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Old 2012-01-31, 03:20   Link #138
ri.kenji
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Originally Posted by qwertyuiopz View Post
why is half of 9 tails the equivalent of 7 bijuus?
Well, to look for logic in something that I probably shouldn't look for logic in… Suppose the 十尾 (jūbi) represents 100% of the original being and each of the 尾獣 (bijū) we have now receive different amounts of the original's power, the power could have been distributed such that each bijū has double the power of the bijū with one less tail.

Let's break it down:
  • 511 (The power of the jūbi)
  • 1+2+4+8+16+32+64+128+256 (The powers of the individual bijū from #1 to #9)
  • 2⁰+2¹+2²+2³+2⁴+2⁵+2⁶+2⁷+2⁸ (The powers expressed as powers of 2)
So the power of a bijū can be expressed by the function f(n)=2ⁿ⁺¹, where n is the number of tails. In percentages, the 一尾 (ichibi) would have 0.20% of the total power of the jūbi and the 五尾 (gobi) would have 12.52% of the total.

As you can see:
  • 2⁰+2¹+2²+2³+2⁴+2⁵+2⁶=127 (The power of all the bijū up to #7)
  • 2⁸÷2=128 (The power of bijū #9)
  • 128>127
It's believable that half of the 九尾 (kyūbi) could outmatch the other 7 bijū combined if this power distribution is actually being adhered to by the author. ナルト (Naruto) himself also has a strong チャクラ (chakra) to tip the odds in his favor further.

Beware: This post makes use of Unicode characters that might not display on your device and so may appear to be erroneous. On my Motorola Xoom running Android 4.0.3, the superscript zero, superscript five through eight, and superscript plus sign are not rendered.

Last edited by ri.kenji; 2012-01-31 at 03:32. Reason: Added a note for people with incomplete font support
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Old 2012-01-31, 07:30   Link #139
Masuzu
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I didn't know you could type in exponents, this must be the power of the Rinnegan.
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Old 2012-01-31, 08:20   Link #140
Luminion Lancer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ri.kenji View Post
Well, to look for logic in something that I probably shouldn't look for logic in… Suppose the 十尾 (jūbi) represents 100% of the original being and each of the 尾獣 (bijū) we have now receive different amounts of the original's power, the power could have been distributed such that each bijū has double the power of the bijū with one less tail.

Let's break it down:
  • 511 (The power of the jūbi)
  • 1+2+4+8+16+32+64+128+256 (The powers of the individual bijū from #1 to #9)
  • 2⁰+2¹+2²+2³+2⁴+2⁵+2⁶+2⁷+2⁸ (The powers expressed as powers of 2)
So the power of a bijū can be expressed by the function f(n)=2ⁿ⁺¹, where n is the number of tails. In percentages, the 一尾 (ichibi) would have 0.20% of the total power of the jūbi and the 五尾 (gobi) would have 12.52% of the total.

As you can see:
  • 2⁰+2¹+2²+2³+2⁴+2⁵+2⁶=127 (The power of all the bijū up to #7)
  • 2⁸÷2=128 (The power of bijū #9)
  • 128>127
It's believable that half of the 九尾 (kyūbi) could outmatch the other 7 bijū combined if this power distribution is actually being adhered to by the author. ナルト (Naruto) himself also has a strong チャクラ (chakra) to tip the odds in his favor further.
-While I do love this explanation and it makes a degree of sense, there is a bit of a problem in that logic.

-From what I gather, Bijuu #1-7 is equivalent to 127 in terms of chakra combined. And 1/2 of Bijuu #9 is 128 (from its original 256) and it is enough to tear down the other 7 in a fight. But the number is actually lower than that right? Bijuu #1 and 4 are out of the fight, lowering the number down to 118, no?

-So then, why is it that Bijuu #8 (Hachibi) which should have the equivalent to 128, same as Bijuu #9 at the moment, has trouble dealing with chakra lower than its own, when Bijuu #9 has essentially the same amount and paired up with a far less seasoned host?
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