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Old 2012-01-31, 09:10   Link #141
xKeir
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Oh damn this seems all alien to me.

Anyway , i'm pretty much convinced that Kurama's ass-kicking is mainly due to him being partners w/ the main character. I mean .. Kishimoto could come up with Tailed Beast Chakra dividing and other theories to explain it all , but ..

Half the 9 Ninetail's Power = Equivalent of 5 other beasts , and the 8 Tails already had trouble with 2-3. Seems pretty warped to me , but hey. It's Naruto. So u know ...
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Old 2012-01-31, 12:07   Link #142
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by xKeir View Post
Oh damn this seems all alien to me.

Anyway , i'm pretty much convinced that Kurama's ass-kicking is mainly due to him being partners w/ the main character. I mean .. Kishimoto could come up with Tailed Beast Chakra dividing and other theories to explain it all , but ..

Half the 9 Ninetail's Power = Equivalent of 5 other beasts , and the 8 Tails already had trouble with 2-3. Seems pretty warped to me , but hey. It's Naruto. So u know ...
this makes much more sense to me than the mathematical explanation. I also think that the reason kurama is able to fight 5 bijou at once is because he's teamed up with BM naruto, lol that's not exactly a flattering nickname =)

also, it was mentioned at the onset of this fight that the number of tails is not equivalent to the power distribution between bijou. therefore the ichibi could theoretically be more powerful than the rokubi or even the hachibi possibly. it does seem that kurama is the most powerful though.
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Old 2012-01-31, 14:59   Link #143
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
hmm. I missed/forgot this. if you wouldn't mind, can you tell me which chapter it's in? it seems fishy because if he had the first's dna in the past before he died, then he surely would have used mokuton before his resurrection. he treated mokuton like something new he had to test out.
Tobi tells that to Konan in chapter 510. In chapter 512 we see that Zetsu is some kind of clone of the 1st hokage. Tobi tells to Kabuto that he stole the 1st's cells while they fought, showing him all that in his secret lair. But we learn that Tobi is not Madara, so this could all be a lie. But if it were a lie then how would Tobi know so many things that only Madara could know. Also the real Madara never contradicts what Tobi said, he also tells us that they had a plan. Also Kabuto tells us he crated the rinnegan-Madara, but Madara tells its not true that Kabuto created him, however he never denies that his rinnegan was not in some way artifical and not naturally awakened.

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this makes sense if madara acheived rinnegan on his own before he died which is what I think happened.
Why would he achieve a powerup and at the same time be so weak that he dies. To have a powerup like that one should be healthy, and even more than that, he should be on top of his power. So it doesn't make sense unless he experimented on his own body to artificially create the rinnegan in himself, and either the experimenting process lasted so long that he became old or his experimnets made him ill and then die soon after he succeeded.
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Old 2012-01-31, 15:34   Link #144
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Tobi tells that to Konan in chapter 510. In chapter 512 we see that Zetsu is some kind of clone of the 1st hokage. Tobi tells to Kabuto that he stole the 1st's cells while they fought, showing him all that in his secret lair. But we learn that Tobi is not Madara, so this could all be a lie. But if it were a lie then how would Tobi know so many things that only Madara could know.
oh yea. thanks I don't think it's a lie since I subscribe to the madara mind/obito theory

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Also Kabuto tells us he crated the rinnegan-Madara, but Madara tells its not true that Kabuto created him, however he never denies that his rinnegan was not in some way artifical and not naturally awakened.
I took it to mean that kabuto had nothing to do with the rinnegan, but I guess there's no definites yet since we don't know everything. like what madara was looking at when he pulled his shirt out and peeked in. maybe another weird hashirama face like danzo had?


Quote:
Why would he achieve a powerup and at the same time be so weak that he dies. To have a powerup like that one should be healthy, and even more than that, he should be on top of his power. So it doesn't make sense unless he experimented on his own body to artificially create the rinnegan in himself, and either the experimenting process lasted so long that he became old or his experimnets made him ill and then die soon after he succeeded.
well if it was natural (which I think is being implied by all the 'sharingan can evolve into rinnegan' talk lately, I can think of 2 logical reasons for him to die right after. 1 is that he died of old age. the other is that he used the rinnegan a lot at first and used up all his chakra.
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Old 2012-01-31, 17:33   Link #145
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
well if it was natural (which I think is being implied by all the 'sharingan can evolve into rinnegan' talk lately, I can think of 2 logical reasons for him to die right after. 1 is that he died of old age. the other is that he used the rinnegan a lot at first and used up all his chakra.
Sure it can evolve, but is that forced/augmented evolution or just the natural next level? If it were natural then why would Madara bother fighting the 1st hokage with only EMS? He was risking his life, he lost the kyuubi and almost lost his life. He was badly injured also, we don't know to what extent, we only know Tobi tells us he is crippled becuase of that fight, but then it turns out he is not Madara. If he had this naturally he would have waited until somehow it is naturally awakened in him (by killing Uchiha or Senju or whatever other method) and only after that he would go to fight the hokage and the whole village. If he had the rinnegan at that time he would have won and destroyed Konoha. The only legitimate reason i could think of is that he was thinking that to awaken the rinnegan he would need to fight the strongest ninja alive, who is also the man he admired, and then his EMS would turn into rinnegan ( BTW i think there's a chance Sasuke will gain the rinnegan against Naruto, when he is about to lose ). But Tobi tells us something different: his primary goal was to obtain the DNA and not revenge or something like that.

I can't imagine how would he obtain the rinnegan in a very weakened state which happens when somebody is about to die.
Overusing the rinnegan is probably not the case, because the first thing he would do after obtaining the rinnegan and being 100% healthy is to go to Konoha to kill everyone. But he never attacked Konoha.
Another possibility would be if he was crippled after he lost the fight against the 1st, but we see that a even a crippled rinnegan user like Nagato can beat hokage level people. So even then i would expect that he attacks Konoha with the 6 path corpses, but he didn't do that.
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Old 2012-01-31, 19:44   Link #146
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Sure it can evolve, but is that forced/augmented evolution or just the natural next level? If it were natural then why would Madara bother fighting the 1st hokage with only EMS? He was risking his life, he lost the kyuubi and almost lost his life. He was badly injured also, we don't know to what extent, we only know Tobi tells us he is crippled becuase of that fight, but then it turns out he is not Madara. If he had this naturally he would have waited until somehow it is naturally awakened in him (by killing Uchiha or Senju or whatever other method) and only after that he would go to fight the hokage and the whole village. If he had the rinnegan at that time he would have won and destroyed Konoha. The only legitimate reason i could think of is that he was thinking that to awaken the rinnegan he would need to fight the strongest ninja alive, who is also the man he admired, and then his EMS would turn into rinnegan ( BTW i think there's a chance Sasuke will gain the rinnegan against Naruto, when he is about to lose ). But Tobi tells us something different: his primary goal was to obtain the DNA and not revenge or something like that.

I can't imagine how would he obtain the rinnegan in a very weakened state which happens when somebody is about to die.
Overusing the rinnegan is probably not the case, because the first thing he would do after obtaining the rinnegan and being 100% healthy is to go to Konoha to kill everyone. But he never attacked Konoha.
Another possibility would be if he was crippled after he lost the fight against the 1st, but we see that a even a crippled rinnegan user like Nagato can beat hokage level people. So even then i would expect that he attacks Konoha with the 6 path corpses, but he didn't do that.
you're not including the 'moon's eye plan' in your deductions. maybe once he achieved rinnegan, he thought that putting that plan into action was even better than going back to konoha and killing everyone. I'm assuming he fought hashirama with ems because he either didnt know about rinnegan at that time, didn't know how to awaken it before that fight, or like you said: he thought that fighting hashirama would awaken it.

I agree about sasuke getting it in his fight with naruto btw

edit: in retrospect it does make sense to need senju and uchiha dna to get rinnegan since the rikudo sennin was the originator of rinnegan and had both obviously (although by that logic all later generation senju and uchiha should have both dna, just more of one than the other). so perhaps it requires a lot of both dna strands?

Last edited by itachi-san314; 2012-01-31 at 19:55.
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Old 2012-02-01, 00:30   Link #147
Shiryuu
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Madara never truly achieved rinnegan. If he did, there would have been no reason to create rinnegan on Nagato. Tobi could've just taken dead Madara's eyes until the plan was complete then give them back afterwards.
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Old 2012-02-01, 01:17   Link #148
james0246
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Chapter 572 thread has been opened. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.
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Old 2012-02-01, 18:40   Link #149
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
you're not including the 'moon's eye plan' in your deductions. maybe once he achieved rinnegan, he thought that putting that plan into action was even better than going back to konoha and killing everyone. I'm assuming he fought hashirama with ems because he either didnt know about rinnegan at that time, didn't know how to awaken it before that fight, or like you said: he thought that fighting hashirama would awaken it.
It is possible that the moon's eye was his goal, but that doesn't change everything else what i said about him. For that plan he needed the DNA, he needed the rinnegan, otherwise he wouldn't have risked his life fighting the 1st hokage and the village. It is not possible that he didn't know about the rinnegan, the Uchiha's secret shrine has the stone tablets where he could read about these things, and he had the EMS to actually be able to read that stuff.

For the moon eye's plan he also had to capture all the demons, and according to the story at the time the 1st hokage had those demons. So maybe that was also part of his plan when fighting the 1st. But he ended up losing even the kyuubi, and barely surviving, so even if his plan was to actually win that fight he had to completely change his plans.

But i think that this moon's eye plan as told by Tobi is not really Madara's plan, because Madara likes war, he likes to fight, and the plan is about peace. That peace is forced peace, but it's peace, and Madara likes to fight, fighting is his lifestyle. See how even in death he is very agressive, how he comes out of that coffin, how excited he is about fighting 5 kages, etc. He enjoys fighting and killing, he would be sad in a peaceful world, even if he was the ruler of it. So i think, as it was hinted by Kabuto when he talks to Madara, Tobi and Madara are different personalities and they have different goals. Tobi might be Madara's brother, some Uchiha, or he might be an Uzumaki, some other descendant of the sage, but whoever he is he definitely is different than Madara. Madara would never play the idiot Tobi who is chased around by Deidara and telling jokes to people, hiding in the shadows, Madara has too much pride to do such things (as we have seen in his flashback where he talks to the Tsuchikage).


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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
edit: in retrospect it does make sense to need senju and uchiha dna to get rinnegan since the rikudo sennin was the originator of rinnegan and had both obviously (although by that logic all later generation senju and uchiha should have both dna, just more of one than the other). so perhaps it requires a lot of both dna strands?
Technically both sons of the sage and all their descendants have the chance that the genes required to awaken the rinnegan are sleeping in them. So assuming that Uchiha, Senju and even Uzumaki are descendant clans, then both Naruto and Sasuke have the chance to awaken the rinnegan, but i think the author wants that Sasuke becomes the older brother and Naruto the younger brother (which means no rinnegan for Naruto, he is strong enough without that). And the hundreds of years of hatred and fighting between the two sons end with these two, by Sasuke accepting that Naruto was chosen by the sage, so the family reunites finally. A family issue like in the anime "Hokuto no Ken" where the ending fight was between the older and younger brothers, but there the older died.
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