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View Poll Results: Nisemonogatari - Episode 04 Rating
Perfect 10 71 56.35%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 32 25.40%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 20 15.87%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 0.79%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.79%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.79%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 126. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-02-01, 03:26   Link #181
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Eh? blamed by who? when? how was this feeling invoked
Blamed by Araragi. For telling Karen on the phone where to find Kaiki. She says "I'd prefer you didn't try to act like this was my fault" which prompts Araragi to talk about how she scared Oshino by her ability to always find the answer, and to warn her that she should be aware of her own strength.

Quote:
Now, I am even more confused... what do you mean
Hanekawa is attracted by the supernatural. She hates her life so she's looking for things that could lead her "outside". That's the whole reason she was attracted to Araragi in the first place, remember? And throughout Bakemonogatari she was always listening to his stories about the supernatural. He was her window into a different world that she's fascinated by, because it lets her forget her ordinary life. She may be forced to give up her love for Araragi, but that doesn't mean she's giving up searching for kaii, in her own subtle way. In this case she helped Karen find the source of the curse. A curse that she knew was real and Karen didn't. Her sense of detachment and thoughtless helpfulness led directly to the situation that Karen is in.

As I said before, curiosity killed the cat.
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Old 2012-02-01, 03:39   Link #182
Marcus H.
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^ So, the girls' attachment towards Araragi are:

Hitagi: A "unique" way of love [That enforces loyalty to Araragi]
Mayoi: Companionship [Araragi is the only male that can see her]
Kanbaru: Security of friend's relationship [So that she knows that Hitagi is in good hands]
Nadeko: Infatuation bordering to obsession [Unrequited love that keeps on intensifying]
Hanekawa: Escapism [She uses Araragi to escape from her complicated life]
Shinobu: Mutual understanding ["I don't forgive you and vice versa", not quite literal]
Karen and Tsukihi: Proving oneself (?) [Because Araragi doesn't treat them the way they like]

So currently, the relationship tier goes as follows:

Shinobu > Hitagi > Mayoi > Karen and Tsukihi > Kanbaru > Hanekawa > Nadeko.

I think that Shinobu is closest to Araragi than even Hitagi, whom I think Araragi only holds on to because she can kill everyone else if he makes a wrong move. Mayoi is Araragi's greatest confidante, even more so than Karen and Tsukihi, and Koyomi thinks that it is better that way. On the bottom three are Kanbaru, Hanekawa and Nadeko. Kanbaru is only interested to Koyomi because she wants to know who stole her Hitagi, and she often tests Koyomi in handling girls. Hanekawa is friendzoned as Koyomi mentions in Episode 4, and so is Nadeko.
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Last edited by Marcus H.; 2012-02-01 at 03:49.
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Old 2012-02-01, 04:05   Link #183
Clarste
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I think it's a bit more complicated than that. For example, Shinobu is his "past" while Senjougahara is his "future".

Shinobu's prediction of them being stuck together forever while everyone else dies is of course what she says while trying to convince him to abandon her. Shinobu is what keeps him stuck. She's quite literally the scars of his past.

Senjougahara by contrast pushes him forward. She makes him think about his life and seek to better himself. She's the force that pulls him out of his rut of self-loathing and depression. Ironically by constantly demeaning him she reinforces his sense of self-worth by forcing him to defend himself.

It's, well, it's pretty clear that Senjougahara will likely win in the very very end, but it'll be quite a struggle because Shinobu is a huge influence in his life.
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Old 2012-02-01, 04:49   Link #184
Azuma Denton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
^ So, the girls' attachment towards Araragi are:

Hitagi: A "unique" way of love [That enforces loyalty to Araragi]
Mayoi: Companionship [Araragi is the only male that can see her]
Kanbaru: Security of friend's relationship [So that she knows that Hitagi is in good hands]
Nadeko: Infatuation bordering to obsession [Unrequited love that keeps on intensifying]
Hanekawa: Escapism [She uses Araragi to escape from her complicated life]
Shinobu: Mutual understanding ["I don't forgive you and vice versa", not quite literal]
Karen and Tsukihi: Proving oneself (?) [Because Araragi doesn't treat them the way they like]

So currently, the relationship tier goes as follows:

Shinobu > Hitagi > Mayoi > Karen and Tsukihi > Kanbaru > Hanekawa > Nadeko.

I think that Shinobu is closest to Araragi than even Hitagi, whom I think Araragi only holds on to because she can kill everyone else if he makes a wrong move. Mayoi is Araragi's greatest confidante, even more so than Karen and Tsukihi, and Koyomi thinks that it is better that way. On the bottom three are Kanbaru, Hanekawa and Nadeko. Kanbaru is only interested to Koyomi because she wants to know who stole her Hitagi, and she often tests Koyomi in handling girls. Hanekawa is friendzoned as Koyomi mentions in Episode 4, and so is Nadeko.
I think Hanekawa is in the third tier...
Remember that Araragi often says that Hanekawa is his savior and he owes her a lot...

So importance chart maybe like this...
Hanekawa > Hitagi > Karen + Tsukihi > Shinobu > Mayoi + Kanbaru + Nadeko.
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Old 2012-02-01, 05:03   Link #185
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but Mayoi is his true love
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Old 2012-02-01, 07:55   Link #186
omimon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
^ So, the girls' attachment towards Araragi are:

Hitagi: A "unique" way of love [That enforces loyalty to Araragi]
Mayoi: Companionship [Araragi is the only male that can see her]
Kanbaru: Security of friend's relationship [So that she knows that Hitagi is in good hands]
Nadeko: Infatuation bordering to obsession [Unrequited love that keeps on intensifying]
Hanekawa: Escapism [She uses Araragi to escape from her complicated life]
Shinobu: Mutual understanding ["I don't forgive you and vice versa", not quite literal]
Karen and Tsukihi: Proving oneself (?) [Because Araragi doesn't treat them the way they like]

So currently, the relationship tier goes as follows:

Shinobu > Hitagi > Mayoi > Karen and Tsukihi > Kanbaru > Hanekawa > Nadeko.

I think that Shinobu is closest to Araragi than even Hitagi, whom I think Araragi only holds on to because she can kill everyone else if he makes a wrong move. Mayoi is Araragi's greatest confidante, even more so than Karen and Tsukihi, and Koyomi thinks that it is better that way. On the bottom three are Kanbaru, Hanekawa and Nadeko. Kanbaru is only interested to Koyomi because she wants to know who stole her Hitagi, and she often tests Koyomi in handling girls. Hanekawa is friendzoned as Koyomi mentions in Episode 4, and so is Nadeko.
Shinobu's no longer a threat to mankind. Her being stuck as a loli is prove of that and episode 1 of Bake already mentioned it. The reason he keeps her around is because they share a relationship that is deeper than love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azuma Denton View Post
I think Hanekawa is in the third tier...
Remember that Araragi often says that Hanekawa is his savior and he owes her a lot...

So importance chart maybe like this...
Hanekawa > Hitagi > Karen + Tsukihi > Shinobu > Mayoi + Kanbaru + Nadeko.
I think the both of you are simplifying this a bit too much. The trust he holds with each of these characters are separated into the Kaii side and the human side. Araragi is able to talk with Mayoi freely about Kaii stuff while it's pretty much impossible with someone like Hitagi. (Despite them promising to tell the other anything relating to Kaiis)

I would list it like this:
Kaii trust
Shinobu > Hanekawa > Mayoi > Hitagi > Kanbaru > Nadeko > Karen/Tsukihi

Human Trust
Hanekawa > Karen/Tsukihi > Hitagi > Mayoi > Shinobu > Kanbaru > Nadeko
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Old 2012-02-01, 09:09   Link #187
Marcus H.
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Shinobu's no longer a threat to mankind. Her being stuck as a loli is prove of that and episode 1 of Bake already mentioned it. The reason he keeps her around is because they share a relationship that is deeper than love.
I was pertaining to Hitagi there.

Quote:
I think the both of you are simplifying this a bit too much.
Well, that's just how I see things in a more simple way, but of course, we can'treally sort out their relationships through a simple way such as powerlevel rankings.
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Old 2012-02-01, 09:49   Link #188
Shikijin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
^ So, the girls' attachment towards Araragi are:

Hitagi: A "unique" way of love [That enforces loyalty to Araragi]
What does that mean? Araragi helped her. It happened right in the first two episodes of Bake. That's all. She became his girlfriend right after that.

And I advice you to not talk about these things if you don't have read the rest of the novels
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Old 2012-02-01, 10:13   Link #189
zeando
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Originally Posted by omimon View Post
I would list it like this:
Kaii trust
Shinobu > Hanekawa > Mayoi > Hitagi > Kanbaru > Nadeko > Karen/Tsukihi

Human Trust
Hanekawa > Karen/Tsukihi > Hitagi > Mayoi > Shinobu > Kanbaru > Nadeko
i quite agree with that, except i would put kanbaru a bit higher in human trust(similar to mayoi or a bit higher), at least for her "bro aura"
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Old 2012-02-01, 10:44   Link #190
Malkuth
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Isn't ranking oversimplifying their relationships?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Blamed by Araragi. For telling Karen on the phone where to find Kaiki. She says "I'd prefer you didn't try to act like this was my fault" which prompts Araragi to talk about how she scared Oshino by her ability to always find the answer, and to warn her that she should be aware of her own strength.
Ability? I always thought of it as simple reasoning, since she is the only character that was actually thinking before acting, rather than being blinded by emotion or conviction... Black Hanekawa being the exact opposite was the perfect opposite to her usual self. But otherwise, I see what you mean, and agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Hanekawa is attracted by the supernatural. She hates her life so she's looking for things that could lead her "outside". That's the whole reason she was attracted to Araragi in the first place, remember? And throughout Bakemonogatari she was always listening to his stories about the supernatural. He was her window into a different world that she's fascinated by, because it lets her forget her ordinary life. She may be forced to give up her love for Araragi, but that doesn't mean she's giving up searching for kaii, in her own subtle way. In this case she helped Karen find the source of the curse. A curse that she knew was real and Karen didn't. Her sense of detachment and thoughtless helpfulness led directly to the situation that Karen is in.
For the first part I considered it a coincidence, but now tend to think of it as either a purposeful ambiguity, like Koyomi's harem-building power, in other words it might actually be an ability/curse or plot-driving coincidence or as you suggest simple reality escapism.

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As I said before, curiosity killed the cat.
I hope not in this case, afterall they have nine lives
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Old 2012-02-01, 11:45   Link #191
Shikijin
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Hanekawa is attracted by the supernatural. She hates her life so she's looking for things that could lead her "outside". That's the whole reason she was attracted to Araragi in the first place, remember?
This is not the best thread to talk about it, but your comprehension of Kizu is poor If it was Kizu, at least.
Quote:
And throughout Bakemonogatari she was always listening to his stories about the supernatural.
Maybe because Araragi kept meeting girls with supernatural problems?

What was she supposed to say?
"Araragi-kun, if you will keep talking about Nadeko on a plane I'll dump you"
"But my girlfriend is Senjougahara"
"Fool, I was Senjougahara all along. And even Kanbaru"
Quote:
In this case she helped Karen find the source of the curse. A curse that she knew was real and Karen didn't.
It doesn't really matter if it was real or not. She was still going to help Araragi's sisters.
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Old 2012-02-01, 12:06   Link #192
omimon
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We really shouldn't use Araragi's perception of Hanekawa as a point of reference into her character. He is sort of bias towards her so he glamorizes her into this perfect being. Actually, it seems like the Araragi sisters glamorize her as well as one can see in this episode. However the truth is that her perfection is the cause of her problem as Oshino pointed out before.
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Old 2012-02-01, 12:30   Link #193
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Ability? I always thought of it as simple reasoning, since she is the only character that was actually thinking before acting, rather than being blinded by emotion or conviction... Black Hanekawa being the exact opposite was the perfect opposite to her usual self. But otherwise, I see what you mean, and agree.

For the first part I considered it a coincidence, but now tend to think of it as either a purposeful ambiguity, like Koyomi's harem-building power, in other words it might actually be an ability/curse or plot-driving coincidence or as you suggest simple reality escapism.
Well, I left it ambiguous intentionally. "Thinking" could be considered a kind of ability, especially if other people don't have it. As you say though, it could also be something a bit more mysterious.

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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
This is not the best thread to talk about it, but your comprehension of Kizu is poor If it was Kizu, at least.
Most of it comes from Black Hanekawa in episode 15 of Bake.

Quote:
Maybe because Araragi kept meeting girls with supernatural problems?
Well, yes? I was implying that the fact that he keeps having these encounters is why she likes to talk to him. At least partially. She's a bit complicated.

Quote:
It doesn't really matter if it was real or not. She was still going to help Araragi's sisters.
It does matter to Karen. Because now she's dying and all. The fact that she was going to help anyway is exactly the problem. That's why she needs to be more aware of her own strength.
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Old 2012-02-01, 13:12   Link #194
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Wow completely confused. Word "accept" is misleading. That's quite a indirect way to say "watch yourself you are asking for troubles". It feels very out of character for rational and perceptive Hanekawa she should know she has no means or knowledge to deal with Kai. How she is going to deal with guilt regardless whether she was diect or indirect cause? Shouldn't she have used her influence to prevent sister's actions or at least get Koyomi to intercept them? (too little info on the whole ordeal). It really puts her in negative light like she was waiting for shit to happen.

Power ranking won't do Koyomi has unique ability to separate all girls in different categories.
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Old 2012-02-01, 13:52   Link #195
Shikijin
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Well, yes? I was implying that the fact that he keeps having these encounters is why she likes to talk to him. At least partially.
How about trying more simple reasons first, like, she likes to help? Maybe she just like helping Araragi, just like Araragi likes helping people. Araragi is the only person for whom she is going to say "I don't know everything, I know just what I know", after all.
Quote:
It does matter to Karen. Because now she's dying and all. The fact that she was going to help anyway is exactly the problem. That's why she needs to be more aware of her own strength.
No, your point was that it all linked to Hanekawa's fascination with supernatural

She may be forced to give up her love for Araragi, but that doesn't mean she's giving up searching for kaii, in her own subtle way.
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Old 2012-02-01, 14:08   Link #196
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First, let me rejoice that the thread finally moved past the naked loli vampire

@Clarste: Hehe, reading your post gave me the same WTF-feeling as reading Kizumonogatari with my crapy Japanese... i.e. too much condensed information and allusions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Candyshark View Post
Wow completely confused. Word "accept" is misleading. That's quite a indirect way to say "watch yourself you are asking for troubles". It feels very out of character for rational and perceptive Hanekawa she should know she has no means or knowledge to deal with Kai. How she is going to deal with guilt regardless whether she was diect or indirect cause? Shouldn't she have used her influence to prevent sister's actions or at least get Koyomi to intercept them? (too little info on the whole ordeal). It really puts her in negative light like she was waiting for shit to happen.
Not really, whatever her motivation getting involved as well as keeping it a secret from Koyomi is the reason she must be feeling guilt. It's not an error in her judgement (since Koyomi without Meme is doubtful if he could help or try again to kill himself), but probably given how things turned out eventually the wrong choice (despite not being in a position to that beforehand)... in any case we will see during the next couple of weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Candyshark View Post
Power ranking won't do Koyomi has unique ability to separate all girls in different categories.
Thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
How about trying more simple reasons first, like, she likes to help? Maybe she just like helping Araragi, just like Araragi likes helping people. Araragi is the only person for whom she is going to say "I don't know everything, I know just what I know", after all.
No, your point was that it all linked to Hanekawa's fascination with supernatural

She may be forced to give up her love for Araragi, but that doesn't mean she's giving up searching for kaii, in her own subtle way.
Tsubasa trusts Koyomi, and for her she is the only person she can open up (very little as it turns out), so it makes sense that she would do anything to keep that relationship status... but, that does not mean she does not act also independent from him, trying to find other ways to escape from her family.

By the way that later part of the discussion is hard to continue without spoiling Kizumonogatari
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Old 2012-02-01, 15:05   Link #197
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
How about trying more simple reasons first, like, she likes to help? Maybe she just like helping Araragi, just like Araragi likes helping people. Araragi is the only person for whom she is going to say "I don't know everything, I know just what I know", after all.
No, your point was that it all linked to Hanekawa's fascination with supernatural

She may be forced to give up her love for Araragi, but that doesn't mean she's giving up searching for kaii, in her own subtle way.
She can have more than one reason for doing something. Most people aren't completely one-note.
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Old 2012-02-01, 16:33   Link #198
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post

So currently, the relationship tier goes as follows:

Shinobu > Hitagi > Mayoi > Karen and Tsukihi > Kanbaru > Hanekawa > Nadeko.
I'm not sure what this ranking is supposed to express. It's not a matter of intensity: the nature of Araragi's feelings is different. For Shinobu, it's guilt. For Hanekawa, it's thankfulness. For Hitagi, it's love. (no, I don't think he stays with her because he's actually afraid she'll go on a murderous rampage if he didn't.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by omimon View Post
Shinobu's no longer a threat to mankind. Her being stuck as a loli is prove of that and episode 1 of Bake already mentioned it. The reason he keeps her around is because they share a relationship that is deeper than love.
It could just be they need each other to live. Or at least, that Shinobu needs him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Well, yes? I was implying that the fact that he keeps having these encounters is why she likes to talk to him. At least partially. She's a bit complicated.
I think it's because they're kindred spirits, despite their different circumstances. They both feel alienated by their own families, and by society in general, though it's for different reasons. They both want to feel needed.
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Old 2012-02-01, 16:49   Link #199
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It could just be they need each other to live. Or at least, that Shinobu needs him.
Neither of them want to live though. Shinobu is bored with her long life and wants to give it up for Araragi to be fully human again. Araragi is... Araragi. Of course he'd never let anyone die for him, and he's constantly wanting to die for others (it takes Senjougahara's threats of vengeance to snap him out of it). Their relationship is one in which they both sacrifice themselves for the other resulting in a situation where no one achieves what they want.

I guess you could say that what you need is different from what you want though.

Last edited by Clarste; 2012-02-01 at 17:20.
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Old 2012-02-01, 19:08   Link #200
Marcus H.
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And I advice you to not talk about these things if you don't have read the rest of the novels
Hey, that's kinda insulting.
It's not like everyone should read the original source like the adaptation fails in storytelling.

In Bakemonogatari's case, it's probably just me misunderstanding some things, which is worsened by my decision to not read the light novels. Well, it is better this way, because I might join the "Hey, Why Didn't They Add This or That?" crowd.

Besides, "I do not know everything, I just know what I know."
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