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Old 2012-01-31, 06:05   Link #221
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Force doesn't really have awful pacing though. Slow release hampered even more by half-chapters, yes. But the pacing's allright. Vivid's pace is slower, with plot threads raised in the first chapters barely or never having been touched upon since.
I'll give you that Force's main pacing problem has more to do with it's release dates than anything but at least the whole assault on the Esquad Huckebein mini-arc gave me a feeling of those darn 5 minutes in Namek xDU.

I agree with you on ViVid. It's one of the reasons of why i'm enjoying more the tournament Arc, the pacing is still kinda slow but at least they now spent the chapters actually doing significant stuff xD

EDIT: Page claimed for Frieza ....and Bushido-chan xD
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Old 2012-01-31, 06:09   Link #222
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I know, it's all subjective, but it still feels unfair critisism though. Nanoha didn't develop in A's either but nobody bat an eyelash. Teana and Subaru had to work for their place, but they actually had the chance to do so. StrikerS is over and they got their development. Thoma's getting hammered before he's even given a chance to finish. He (and most of the cast in Force, really) is being treated like a character who's series is already finished.
Well, I did. I felt that it was why A's wasn't as good as it could been. It was still really good but due to other factors like Hayate and the Wolkies, as well as what I felt was the best antagonist the series ever generated. So even if Nanoha did stagnate in A's, the others helped keep it up.

I'm quite sure someone out there agrees, though I suppose there is some inconsistency running around.

As for bashing before the finish line, it can't be helped. As I said before, patience is earned, not given by default. For example, the first season of Nanoha had certain elements that had me going to buy it time to get better. If Force hasn't managed to come up with compelling things at this point, then it might just not be worth it for some to invest their time into it.

Except complaining on the internet. That always has a cost of 0 for some reason.
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Old 2012-01-31, 07:34   Link #223
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Totally, if you don't like something, why waste time on it? Aside from complaints, which seems to work... almost therapeutic to some.
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Old 2012-01-31, 09:39   Link #224
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So will watching Cypha get beaten up.

And I dunno, it has been a couple years since he became the lead. Even if he really gets going now, making the audience wait that long is still grounds for some complaint. I mean, if they don't make it enjoyable for me, the guy reading the story without paying for it, then what has this company come to!?

Quote:
Now ciorrect me if I'm interpreting your words wrong, but does that mean you consider change that happens as character establishment (like Nanoha changing from a normal girl to a magical girl in the first few episodes) development? Because in that case, Thoma's got plenty.

He went from a regular boy who knows a little magic to a boy who became an eclipse infected, we learned that he has a rather troubled past which he still carries with him (flashbacks are development too, after all) following which his infection took hold and he learned what it was like to hold great power without control, which gave him the drive to master his powers so he would never harm those close to him again.
Oh not at all. I just mean I've seen shows that have done character development before the halfway point, even if its just little stuff for fleshing them out, which hasn't happened so much with Touma. I just found it kind of a weird blanket statement.
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Old 2012-01-31, 12:31   Link #225
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You say 'a couple of years' as if we've had weekly installments of the manga. But even putting that aside, no fleshing out? Given all the stuff I listed before, I'm not buying that.

I can understand not liking what you read. Really, I have no problems with it, but a lot of the of the things you don't like you try and to claim to be flaws of the story, rather than just something you don't like.

For example, you just don't care much for Thoma. And that's fine. But to then claim that he's had no development or even fleshing out when you can make an entire list of both? Not buying it.
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Old 2012-01-31, 13:00   Link #226
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I say it because its been two years in the real world. That's a while to be stuck with a main character they can't be bothered to make interesting.

And no, I just dislike him because he's a flawed character. A lot of stuff in Force is flawed. If something good happened, I would be happy to say so. Please don't play the whiny fan card into an intelligent discussion.
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Old 2012-01-31, 13:05   Link #227
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...That's...not what we were talking about.
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Old 2012-01-31, 13:37   Link #228
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
So will watching Cypha get beaten up.
I'm crossing my fingers to see Quattro-levels of karmic payback to fall onto her xD!

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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
And I dunno, it has been a couple years since he became the lead. Even if he really gets going now, making the audience wait that long is still grounds for some complaint. I mean, if they don't make it enjoyable for me, the guy reading the story without paying for it, then what has this company come to!?
The point is that the people who actually py for it(aka the japanese fandom) seems to like what Force offered to them so far xDU. American and Japanese fandoms are quite different on their preferences sometimes xDU(case in point Gundam SEED, they love Kira Yamato).Well, it also helps that Force is published on a magazine alongside other mangas with their own set of fans(but IIRC the full tomes also sells decently good).

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I say it because its been two years in the real world. That's a while to be stuck with a main character they can't be bothered to make interesting.
They seems to bother but their view of "interesting" seems a bit outdated, at least to me, Tohma initially gives the vibes of that 90's popular archetype of "conflicted teenager who gets involved with dark powers that forces him to take part in violent battles and release his darker side, all while receiving cool black leather clothes and an evil-looking weapon". But probably that was just the consequence of the big contrast him and the Huckebein make with the rest of the franchise in that regard. Tohma did received some fleshing out but is was not appealing to some of us. I only started to pay attention to him when i started to see bits of his actual characterization being explored. After the unecessary extended "Rescue Tohma" mini-arc ended he seems to finally started his true developing xD.

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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
And no, I just dislike him because he's a flawed character. A lot of stuff in Force is flawed. If something good happened, I would be happy to say so. Please don't play the whiny fan card into an intelligent discussion.
I agree with you in that Tohma and Force have notorious flaws but(God forbids me), they're not completely devoid of good stuff. So far i almost totally dislike the heroes's new weapons(sans the Sword Breaker, 5th Gen Bardiche is also cool but not as cool and versatile as his original form) while i find some of the dividers and Huck-equipement interesting(Devile's Armorize power is pretty amusing while Veyron's Claw Grab becomes more and more awesome each time he uses it, hate to admit it but Cypha's Divider-944 also seems to be a darn good weapon).

I hit my head in frustration at seeing lots of people holding the idiot ball but i also found interesting stuff like the conflict between the Huckebein and Vandin Corp.(i like "Evil versus Evil" confrontations xD). And found cool stuff while seeing Veyron and Curren fighting. It takes a lot more to say the manga is "good" but is at least entertaining.
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Old 2012-01-31, 13:51   Link #229
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
I say it because its been two years in the real world. That's a while to be stuck with a main character they can't be bothered to make interesting.
And they can't provide any more progress without providing more chapters (or appearances in games and soundstages), which will still come out once a month max.

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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
And no, I just dislike him because he's a flawed character. A lot of stuff in Force is flawed. If something good happened, I would be happy to say so. Please don't play the whiny fan card into an intelligent discussion.
I play the 'whiny fan card' because I continuously keep asking you to back up your claims, and you continuously fail to provide. What little you do is riddled with holes, which I will keep poking at, no matter how much you ignore it.
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Old 2012-01-31, 15:44   Link #230
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Because all your examples of him having character are what powers he has and motivations, and some of the latter haven't been totally explored yet. Those aren't fleshing him out in and of themselves. Can you name some personality traits he has on their own?
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Old 2012-01-31, 16:03   Link #231
Akiyoshi
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Because all your examples of him having character are what powers he has and motivations, and some of the latter haven't been totally explored yet. Those aren't fleshing him out in and of themselves. Can you name some personality traits he has on their own?
* Is a conflicted boy that is dealing with the grudge he have towards the ones responsible for the demise of his hometwon and all people he knew.
* Is a caring and somewhat selfless boy who wants to be independent so no more close ones get hurt. To the point he can't allow himself be adopted by a caring family and is willing to kill himself for the well-being of others despite Fortis's arguings.
* Is divided between the new, caring people who received him with open arms and the Huckebein whom he feels identified with.
* Show respect for the people who get closer to him and is also a responsible young man. Rescued Lily when he found her and does his best effort to take care of her since.

A bit of a messiah-like character, probably not the most plausible or likable character traits out there, but traits nontheless.
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Old 2012-01-31, 16:32   Link #232
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Because all your examples of him having character are what powers he has and motivations, and some of the latter haven't been totally explored yet. Those aren't fleshing him out in and of themselves. Can you name some personality traits he has on their own?
Motivation is a core part of a character, it's what makes them do what they do, their drive, their goals, how you can possibly claim this isn't even part of his character is beyond me. Motivation in great part defines a character. Fate was defined by her motivation to please her mother, the Wolkenritter were defined by their motivation to save Hayate and so on and so on.

Powers, while in and of themselves are not are part of a character, the method of obtaining them and the effects they have are. In Thoma's case, the powers not only led to him meeting Lily and gaining someone to take care of, but also led to the exploration of his past, his face to face meeting with death, recognizing that power can have devastating consequences and his new goal of mastering it lest he hurts those he loves.

You want growth? In not even twenty chapters Thoma went from a boy who was just out there to put his past to rest and join the Nakajima's, to a boy who had to protect a girl, to a boy with a pained past faced with the possible perpetrators right in front of him, to a boy faced with his own death and the choice to become a murderer or die, to the boy who took the bullet and decided his own life was not worth the life of others, to a boy who was saved and now works his hardest so that his powers will never hurt those he loves.

Seriously, looking back on things Thoma is a freaking maelstrom of character growth compared to most characters in the Nanohaverse.

You want personality traits? He's one of the bravest guys out there, knowingly choosing his own death over the pains his survival would cause others. That's an act of bravery and sacrifice right up there with Reinforce.

He's persistent. Even in the face of all he's been through, he's still pushing on.

He's kind and selfless, taking care of people he barely even knows even at the cost of his own life, and asking for no reward.

He's understanding, rather than accuse the Hucks of pure evil or taking the moral high ground because he took the choice they didn't dare to, he understands what they've gone through. One can argue that this understanding goes beyond simple understanding and into the realm of naivety (and I would be inclined to agree, a personality trait doesn't always need to be a positive one after all)

He's stubborn, rather than just letting the past slip away quietly and live with the Nakajima's, he goes of on a trip, breaks into ruins and still decides to try and solve everything himself even though he's in waaay over his head.
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Old 2012-01-31, 17:14   Link #233
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Touma is not one of the things that Force is getting wrong.

Neither is it wrong that the Huckebein have been so successful up to this point, or that Curren is so powerful.

The existence of a form of energy inimical to all known forms of life, magic and technology is not necessarily a bad idea. As I've pointed out before, it's basically like the Seithr from BlazBlue; a form of energy similar to but very different from True Magic. Whatever creatures it doesn't kill, it tends to mutate into something stronger and meaner.

If there was a failing with the Huckebein, it was making so many of them that none of them are getting properly fleshed out, such as explaining where they came from, how they ended up like this, and what they're trying to do.

This on top of introducing far too many new terms with no real explanation for what they mean. "Zero Effect", "Reactor", "Reactor Plug", "Strosek", "Divider"...

The far-too-sudden and very jarring appearance of new weapons and androids doesn't help.
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Old 2012-01-31, 17:38   Link #234
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That all sounds very nice the way you've written it. I'd read a story about that character.
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Old 2012-02-01, 09:40   Link #235
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That all sounds very nice the way you've written it. I'd read a story about that character.
Then you can, because I didn't make any of these up. Every single one of these examples of growth and personality was taken from Force itself. I can make a list of chapters, even pages, where they're shown.
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Old 2012-02-01, 09:57   Link #236
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Just to add a little thought, Touma is also not completely messiah like, as he still cannot let go of the past and thus like mentioned before, decides to go on a journey and get involve in all the things that is happening now. Not only that, the rage he have shown when he thought Veyron was the one whom destroyed his village shows that he is lethal as compared to the other main characters so far on the reason of vengence.

He might be a little mellow now since he fears his own power but nobody knows what will happen when the real killers appear. This is a guy whom live with a dagger alone before meeting Subaru when his village is destroyed so I think it might be interesting when the real killers appear.
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Old 2012-02-01, 11:29   Link #237
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He could always turn out to be a Stepford Smiler, I suppose.

It occurred to me a little while ago - I was complaining about him considering the Huckebein his friends after only knowing them for a little while, but maybe that's intentional? Like he was so affected by his backstory that he'll latch onto anyone who's nice to him at all? Or something like that.
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Old 2012-02-01, 11:52   Link #238
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Not really considering them as friends, but more of the "I feel your pain" thing. Unlike the others, Touma could understand the urge that they have and is thus more sympathatic to them. Not that he will join them or agree with what they do, but he could more or less see things in their perspective due to his carrying the virus as well.

Stepford Smiler is more like what Hayate used to be. Touma is more like a time-bomb which might explode at any time if he finds the real killer.
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Old 2012-02-01, 12:04   Link #239
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Personally, I could see the Hucks getting justifiably pissed when he says that, since he's only gone berserk for five minutes that wasn't the Book triggering its defenses, during which he only almost killed someone. So he doesn't really know.
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Old 2012-02-01, 12:07   Link #240
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He knows how it feels if one do not kill to subdue the virus. It might not be long, but Touma is not an idiot and he can relate to why the Hucks decide to kill. Not all would choose to kill himself when given the choice to kill others to deal with the virus.
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