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View Poll Results: Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa Movie Rating
Perfect 10 40 42.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 33 34.74%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 12.63%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 5.26%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 3.16%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 2.11%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 95. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-02-01, 15:00   Link #3701
Thess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
The thing is...how are we sure that "Shooting Star" comes AFTER the end of the movie...?

(Also: I'm relishing the irony of people who hated and distrusted Ranka in the series suddenly believing her when she says that when Alto comes back, Sheryl wakes up. Not trying to start a war, just sayin'.)
Wasn't it mentioned that Ranka's first live concert was the fuzzy teddy bear one? It can't be possibly but afterwards because of this. Besides there is the dialogue with Sheryl saying she apologized for taking her sweet time to show up. It's kind of obvious. She's stirring, concert begins. The order of things mattered according to Kawamori...

Alto's return, on the other hand, isn't a sealed deal. They were singing about themselves, mostly (according to May'n). While Sheryl's awakening is inevitable, Alto's return is only backed mostly by Ranka's speech, the Visual Collection, the "unspoken" coy thing in that interview. Now these aren't as concrete as see Sheryl's stirring, singing and smiling then hear her in a live concert, so I wouldn't blame someone for having a different interpretation (specially since it's mostly reliant on the outside sources, unlike Sheryl's awakening, IMO).

(To be fair with them: Ranka in the series =/= Ranka in the movies. Kawamori admitted he made her more mature... Along with Alto).

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
That's interesting, I think that the movie version of Sheryl was rather less of a selfless character than the Sheryl from the series... who to me still stands as a paragon of self-sacrifice and compassion among anime characters.
I disagree.

Sheryl's essentially the same: the main difference is that in the movieverse, she had a deep bond with Grace, maybe Brera, and she knew she was dying since the beginning. They were changed. She had a loyalty to Galaxy, enough to pay for their rescue too; she loved her people more strongly. She didn't bond as much with the people of Frontier because of the circumstances as she did in the TV series, but once the chips were down, she chose to save Ranka's life over her own in that heroic sacrifice. Essentially, she was unchanged, the plot simply took her into another direction, yet she remained driven, courageous, with a crippling loneliness and a tsundere personality.

There was never a possibility for her to be cure in the TV series to know how she'll react, you know? And she felt so guilty about her thoughts that seemed pretty happy when they arrested her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Banana would have needed a huge personality upgrade to be even a contender. As he was in the series, he basically was a wish-fullfillment bot for Ranka ( "Yay, I have a guy who does everything I tell him to do!" ), in the movies he never got so close to Ranka as to be even taken serious.
According to Kiss in the Galaxy, Brera will win. /is bricked

But really, if the triangle is between a woman and two guys in anime/manga, the girl usually ends up picking the initial 'bad boy' aka Brera as endgame. Hell, if you change his brother relationship as LMK wants, he's basically a forgotten childhood friend, then! And the reason why Ranka is drawn to Alto in the first place (i.e. the flashback she thought about how warm Alto's hand is and has a flashback to mystery blond boy).
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Last edited by Thess; 2012-02-01 at 15:32.
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Old 2012-02-01, 15:28   Link #3702
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How perverse is it that someone like me goes back to the second movie mostly to listen to two of Rankas songs? :-/
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Old 2012-02-01, 15:36   Link #3703
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Nobody blames you. They are good songs. It shows how Megumi's talent grew.

Besides, movie Ranka is love. I'm proud that we're both Taurus.
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Old 2012-02-01, 15:42   Link #3704
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I feel like I should feel like taking a shower after saying that I like Rankas songs more in the second movie. But I just do.
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Old 2012-02-01, 16:07   Link #3705
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I'll answer both of your replies later, magnus, Thess.

By the way, I have calmed down a lot.

And btw, I rewatch the movie just to watch the Niji-Iro Kuma Kuma concert. That and the beach date.
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Old 2012-02-01, 16:17   Link #3706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
I disagree.

Sheryl's essentially the same: the main difference is that in the movieverse, she had a deep bond with Grace, maybe Brera, and she knew she was dying since the beginning. They were changed. She had a loyalty to Galaxy, enough to pay for their rescue too; she loved her people more strongly. She didn't bond as much with the people of Frontier because of the circumstances as she did in the TV series, but once the chips were down, she chose to save Ranka's life over her own in that heroic sacrifice. Essentially, she was unchanged, the plot simply took her into another direction, yet she remained driven, courageous, with a crippling loneliness and a tsundere personality.

There was never a possibility for her to be cure in the TV series to know how she'll react, you know? And she felt so guilty about her thoughts that seemed pretty happy when they arrested her.
Just saw this, sorry.

You are wrong, though. The very fact that she seriously entertained the heineous thought of harvesting Rankas organs for her survival makes her, to me, a different, lesser version of herself. Yeah, she was still pretty awesome, but come on. Contemplating murder is really not an admirable trait.

And you cannot claim that Sheryl from the series would have done the same. Sure, she wasn't in the situation where such a solution would have presented itself to her, but that doesn't mean that you get to say that she would have had the same reaction as movie Sheryl. If we acknowledge that movie Ranka was a different and better character than series Ranka, then we have to acknowledge that series Sheryl was a different person than movie Sheryl, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
According to Kiss in the Galaxy, Brera will win. /is bricked

But really, if the triangle is between a woman and two guys in anime/manga, the girl usually ends up picking the initial 'bad boy' aka Brera as endgame. Hell, if you change his brother relationship as LMK wants, he's basically a forgotten childhood friend, then! And the reason why Ranka is drawn to Alto in the first place (i.e. the flashback she thought about how warm Alto's hand is and has a flashback to mystery blond boy).
"Usually" is a loaded word with the Macross franchise, you surely realize? Minmay would have been the "traditional" choice for Hikaru, too.
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Old 2012-02-01, 16:21   Link #3707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Wasn't it mentioned that Ranka's first live concert was the fuzzy teddy bear one? It can't be possibly but afterwards because of this. Besides there is the dialogue with Sheryl saying she apologized for taking her sweet time to show up. It's kind of obvious. She's stirring, concert begins. The order of things mattered according to Kawamori...
According to Kanno, d-shudisuta-b was performed at one of Sheryl's concerts. Note also the underlined part...
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Kanno Youko on d-shudisuta-b ["d-shooting star-b"]
This is one of the last songs we recorded. As I wanted it to be timeless, a song that could be from the past or the future, I told hal, who also wrote the lyrics to "What 'bout my star?", that I wanted something that feels like a delinquent Sheryl. In universe, it's a song written by Sheryl, which she invites Ranka as a guest to sing with her during the encore of a live. And because it's a live, I thought some MC work was needed, so I added a few lines of dialogue for the two of them.
Though yes, how Kawamori decided to use it is more important - even if he's never done more than hint about it.
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Last edited by karice67; 2012-02-01 at 16:44.
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Old 2012-02-01, 18:51   Link #3708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Just saw this, sorry.

You are wrong, though. The very fact that she seriously entertained the heineous thought of harvesting Rankas organs for her survival makes her, to me, a different, lesser version of herself. Yeah, she was still pretty awesome, but come on. Contemplating murder is really not an admirable trait.

And you cannot claim that Sheryl from the series would have done the same. Sure, she wasn't in the situation where such a solution would have presented itself to her, but that doesn't mean that you get to say that she would have had the same reaction as movie Sheryl. If we acknowledge that movie Ranka was a different and better character than series Ranka, then we have to acknowledge that series Sheryl was a different person than movie Sheryl, too.
I'm bolding these parts.

You don't know if Sheryl wouldn't have considered that at all. She didn't tell Alto to save Ranka until episode 24, for example, even if she knew he wanted to kill her and that was wrong since episode 23. People aren't perfect, that she is able to be a better woman even if it would be easier to get the rid of Ranka makes her exactly a good person.

Sheryl, movie wise, didn't seem entertaining any thought. You can't say that for certain. She looked very devastated and unsure, frightened too. But she had Grace (who could be possessed by Galaxy Villains) plugged next to her until she heard about Alto. Alto's hospital woes distracted her. But you can see how relieved she looked when they arrested her, immediately after. She didn't even defend herself. Personally, I think she was trapped between the rock and the hard place. She couldn't do anything about it when Grace told her about the plan.

And yes, there was a small conflict because she didn't want to die. She had, gasp, character development in getting the rid off that shred of selfishness that was more of her wanting to live than killing Ranka, IMO.

When Galaxy tried to trick Ranka, emerging after their previous defeat: Sheryl immediately stopped her, even if that would mean her death sentence. It wasn't just she threw away her life for Ranka in that scene after when she pushed her, but she threw away a chance of a cure and her loyalty for her people to save Ranka's life before. This was a more exaggerated and melodramatic character arc, but it was a bit alike how she did in the end of the TV series, she lets Alto go to save Ranka and sings herself to near death until she's safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
"Usually" is a loaded word with the Macross franchise, you surely realize? Minmay would have been the "traditional" choice for Hikaru, too.
I'm talking about triangles with two men and one woman. Macross as Plus as example, Isamu was introduced first as the alpha 'bad boy' which fits this.

They are pretty different from the ones between two women and a guy.

You're right, karice67, it is a Sheryl's concert, but the lines used and the hint of the placing are still a hint.
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Old 2012-02-02, 02:14   Link #3709
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
I'm bolding these parts.

You don't know if Sheryl wouldn't have considered that at all. She didn't tell Alto to save Ranka until episode 24, for example, even if she knew he wanted to kill her and that was wrong since episode 23. People aren't perfect, that she is able to be a better woman even if it would be easier to get the rid of Ranka makes her exactly a good person.

Sheryl, movie wise, didn't seem entertaining any thought. You can't say that for certain. She looked very devastated and unsure, frightened too. But she had Grace (who could be possessed by Galaxy Villains) plugged next to her until she heard about Alto. Alto's hospital woes distracted her. But you can see how relieved she looked when they arrested her, immediately after. She didn't even defend herself. Personally, I think she was trapped between the rock and the hard place. She couldn't do anything about it when Grace told her about the plan.

And yes, there was a small conflict because she didn't want to die. She had, gasp, character development in getting the rid off that shred of selfishness that was more of her wanting to live than killing Ranka, IMO.

When Galaxy tried to trick Ranka, emerging after their previous defeat: Sheryl immediately stopped her, even if that would mean her death sentence. It wasn't just she threw away her life for Ranka in that scene after when she pushed her, but she threw away a chance of a cure and her loyalty for her people to save Ranka's life before. This was a more exaggerated and melodramatic character arc, but it was a bit alike how she did in the end of the TV series, she lets Alto go to save Ranka and sings herself to near death until she's safe.
Yeah, I'm sorry, but that line of reasoning is bullshit. You cannot say that "I have no evidence for my argument, but it is totally equal to your argument for which you have evidence". You are assuming, while I am actually using things which really ( well, "really" as in...you know what I mean ) happened during the series and movie.

Yes, you could be totally right in your assumptions. But since we don't have a mindreader for what really went on in the characters head, outside of what we saw and what they told us, your assumptions don't beat what we actually saw happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
I'm talking about triangles with two men and one woman. Macross as Plus as example, Isamu was introduced first as the alpha 'bad boy' which fits this.

They are pretty different from the ones between two women and a guy.
Also bullshit. There is no clean division between "romance between two men and a woman" and "two women and a man". We have one single example of the first type of romance, true, but concluding that every other Macross romance will follow that example is a ludicrous assumption. And an insult to the creativity of the writers.
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Old 2012-02-02, 05:26   Link #3710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I understand what you mean to say, but that doesn't mean that I agree with it. Ranka from the first movie has significant characterization differences to Ranka from the series, enough to justify my change of opinion already at that point, before the second movie.
I agree that you don't have to agree with my words.

However, it doesn't change the fact that the actions and dialogue in the recycled footage was the same as the series, thus justifying my reason for saying "which movie." The first is a rewrite of the series, which rewrites the characters in the series with a new plot. The second is a complete rewrite altogether and should be seen as a standalone.

I prefer to see the first movie as a rewrite of the series and just that. The second movie, in my mind, comes close to being a Do You Remember Love, considering the timeline and the fact it could hold its own as a standalone.

Quote:
But, hey, it's good that we both like all three main characters from the movies, right?
It's fine.

But no.
Sheryl: series verse
Ranka: movie & series verse
Alto: blend

Before you ramble about "how can I love Alto/Ranka and not like Alto" hear me out.

It's simple:
the Alto form the series was indecisive about everything. It wasn't just the romance but rather his choices towards the war. He was literally, by the point he could make a difference like those before him, duty bound. He was useless in my opinion. His character overall is nice, good background, but his path to becoming a grown up is bad. He remains indecisive about the love triangle all the way through (and hints won't prove your point here if he didn't say the actual words). He ultimately failed to show worth in the series until the very end, which is when he had what I'd call a "life-or-death experience" by being shot down by Brera.

But there are things I liked about his series persona. Disregarding all of the bad stuff, he really is a good character who had potential to actually be a nice hero for Frontier. His background is deep, his attitude is attractive, and even his piloting skills are unmatched (except by androids like Brera). He is very duty bound. That attracted me right away. He attaches himself to people when he has no actual attachment to them emotionally. For example: Ranka and Sheryl. In the beginning, there is no emotional attachment to either but he joins the S.M.S. for Ranka's sake. I felt then that his character really had a chance but the directors messed it up for him.

The Alto from the movie verse knew which side he was gonna be on. From the beginning of the second movie, he listens to Ranka and takes her words to heart, and so, in the battle, he cannot bring himself to shoot at the Vajra until Brera goats him into doing so. He made great choices in the war field and once again brought back up his "duty bound" self but it didn't become an entire part of his persona like in the series. Instead, it is part of him, but not a big part. His piloting skills still remain as sharp as ever.

However, there are also bad parts to him that pull me away. He's too open. His background is either forgotten or dropped, possibly even avoided. His personality has otherwise changed. He's not as gruff or rude anymore. He doesn't come off as a mysterious or otherwise interesting character but rather one who gets pulled with the flow. He is easily fooled by both romance and duty: for one, possibly falling for Sheryl, and for two, believing everyone (over her) that she is a spy.

But the one part I absolutely hate about the movie verse is how they put Alto romantically. He didn't actually have to choose, it was already done. By the hospital scene in movie two, Alto had already chosen Sheryl. It wasn't a shock to me because they were around each other 24/7 but also, Alto was so open and welcoming that he was like a freaking doormat. It's not only me who sees this but some AR fans have stated it. He is too wrapped up in Sheryl for a person he's just met. Whether it be believing she's a spy or actually viewing her as a friend/romantic interest, he's always around her. The two of them just clung to each other in the movie verse to the point where Alto felt the urge to quit when Sheryl was arrested. He also felt the urge to quit (but changed his mind) when she was considered dead.

The Alto from the series whom had all of his correct background, would not have been like that with Sheryl. Which makes his new character OOC to me.

So you see, I have a hard time saying whether I like Alto or not.

Quote:
Hm, for me the part where I think of Sheryl from the series being more selfless is that she was mainly thinking of the good of the people of Frontier when she chose to sacrifice herself. What you identify as her selfish moments in the series are for really immaterial matters. Being clingy when she already knew that she was going to die is not something I find can be logically condemned.

Sheryl from the movie, OTOH, was a willing spy for Galaxy and, it seems to me, entertained serious thoughts about going along with Graces idea of harvesting Rankas organs. Even when she decided against that, it's selfish behaviour on totally another plane than trying to win the man she loves.
I beg to differ.

Sheryl was very selfish, especially in the beginning of the series. And I'll get into more detail about that in the Romance Thread later when I have more time.

I'll answer your one piece. It can be "logically condemned." It should. For one thing, you guys all use that whole scene as an excuse to justify her selflessness. Countless times you've all said "she feels guilty for making him stay with her out of duty." However, if she has to feel guilty, she's selfish. There is no deed in the world that isn't selfish in its own way. Even when she helps Ranka, it's selfish because she expects something in return, like even the girl's cooperation. In all reality, Sheryl is selfish.

However, her movie self was not. She chooses to be a spy for Galaxy for her own selfish reasons. The flashback with Alto and Grace's regards to him prove it. She's a spy infiltrating Frontier so she can get close to Alto, but not for what he stated in the first movie, rather out of romantic interest. And actually, Sheryl never showed that she wasn't going through with Grace's plans to harvest Ranka's organs. However, in the end, she decided against the plan after realizing their feelings were the same and they had become like sisters. At that time, she decided to tell Alto of what Grace was planning for Ranka when Brera showed up. That doesn't make her selfish but rather selfless. And when she pushes Ranka to Alto to save her rather than herself was another selfless move. And finally, choosing to sing to reach out to Alto and Ranka, as well as honor Grace's final wish, she does so, once again being selfless. She then sings just like the series, literally to death, to save Frontier; another selfless act.

Her series persona clashes dearly with her movie persona in this discussion. Her series self was selfish yes, but lacked selfless behaviors that would otherwise prove your point. I could give you a long list of times of which she was selfish in the series versus the selfless behavior. However, in the movie verse, that list would be opposite (in which more selfless than selfish). I think Thess already started on that role.

Quote:
Banana would have needed a huge personality upgrade to be even a contender. As he was in the series, he basically was a wish-fullfillment bot for Ranka ( "Yay, I have a guy who does everything I tell him to do!" ), in the movies he never got so close to Ranka as to be even taken serious.

It would have to be a different story with differently written characters, which is always what a "what if" scenario boils down to.
Actually, no; no story changes. It can still stay the same.

Brera is a spy from Galaxy but Sheryl is not involved in the conspiracy. Her concert is how Alto and Ranka meet but she leaves afterward, meaning her earring never gets lost. Alto thus grows attached to Ranka and decides to join the S.M.S. to protect her. She grows attached to Alto. Then Brera shows up as a contender. However, his brother/sister complex for her would stop her from taking him seriously. In the end, it would be revealed that he's a spy and Galaxy is the enemy. Ranka still would've chosen to leave Frontier in order to better understand her past and the Vajra and left with Brera, however, her feelings for Alto would remain. Alto would rescue Ranka, return her feelings, and they'd both rescue Brera together.

So you see, the story stays similar (or actually the same) but the roles are changed. No one fills in Sheryl's role because there is no need for such.

In a love triangle between those three, Ranka would end up with Alto.

It's simply about the fact that given how Alto and Ranka reacted towards each other in the series, if the story wasn't to change and only the roles, then the same would apply in that changed universe. Brera and Ranka interactions would remain along the same lines of "big brother" in her eyes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
When Galaxy tried to trick Ranka, emerging after their previous defeat: Sheryl immediately stopped her, even if that would mean her death sentence. It wasn't just she threw away her life for Ranka in that scene after when she pushed her, but she threw away a chance of a cure and her loyalty for her people to save Ranka's life before. This was a more exaggerated and melodramatic character arc, but it was a bit alike how she did in the end of the TV series, she lets Alto go to save Ranka and sings herself to near death until she's safe.
I noticed this too and often asked myself "why don't people notice how similar these scenes (in concept) are?" We've always called it "Michael's death scene" but rather this is similar to the scene in which Sheryl tells Alto to "save Ranka" and gives up her romantic feelings for Alto.

I like that post, Thess.

Quote:
According to Kiss in the Galaxy, Brera will win. /is bricked
You are bricked.

For one, Kiss in the Galaxy doesn't validate your point. It's a Sheryl story. The question was "in a world where Sheryl is NOT a romantic element." In which case, she could enter the story and then leave. But she is not there as a permanent mark. And that is what magnus and I were referring to when we discussed the new triangle of Ranka, Alto, and Brera.

And ultimately, Alto wins.

I explained above in the post that magnus made.

Quote:
Also bullshit. There is no clean division between "romance between two men and a woman" and "two women and a man". We have one single example of the first type of romance, true, but concluding that every other Macross romance will follow that example is a ludicrous assumption. And an insult to the creativity of the writers.
Sorry, Thess, but I agree with magnus on this.

For one, there are two female triangles thus far: Plus and 7.

Your theory on Plus is not justified. Isamu wasn't the "bad boy" type, rather Guld was (despite his standoffish behavior, he comes out that way as dark and mysterious). However, in my personal opinion, Myung's feelings for Isamu started before the mess, back in the past rather. And so we cannot justify Isamu was a "bad boy" type in the past without an exact show of proof.

However, 7 doesn't justify your words at all. Basara was not essentially the "bad guy" type, rather Gamlin was (for being a private military pilot is often exciting). Had Basara been the type to show off and say "I chased them away," your theory would've worked better. But he isn't. And Mylene still chooses him, they made that very clear.

So you have to ask yourself, Thess, are you talking about love triangles in Macross or in general because Macross has shown none of those theories you're giving out.
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Old 2012-02-02, 06:35   Link #3711
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Just a note, before it goes off into circles again.

I know this is the Macross sub-forum, but if you look back to her original comment on it, Thess was merely using Macross Plus as an example of a particular trope in anime/manga (bolded)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
But really, if the triangle is between a woman and two guys in anime/manga, the girl usually ends up picking the initial 'bad boy'
And a grand total of what...4 triangles (in Macross) isn't a particularly good sample size for arguing in support of anything anyway.


Other than that, do carry on
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Old 2012-02-02, 06:47   Link #3712
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I agree that you don't have to agree with my words.

However, it doesn't change the fact that the actions and dialogue in the recycled footage was the same as the series, thus justifying my reason for saying "which movie." The first is a rewrite of the series, which rewrites the characters in the series with a new plot. The second is a complete rewrite altogether and should be seen as a standalone.

I prefer to see the first movie as a rewrite of the series and just that. The second movie, in my mind, comes close to being a Do You Remember Love, considering the timeline and the fact it could hold its own as a standalone.
I see your point. And I don't think we disagree here. While you focus on the "rewrite of the series" part, I focus on the "rewrite of the characters" part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
It's fine.

But no.
Sheryl: series verse
Ranka: movie & series verse
Alto: blend

Before you ramble about "how can I love Alto/Ranka and not like Alto" hear me out.

It's simple:
the Alto form the series was indecisive about everything. It wasn't just the romance but rather his choices towards the war. He was literally, by the point he could make a difference like those before him, duty bound. He was useless in my opinion. His character overall is nice, good background, but his path to becoming a grown up is bad. He remains indecisive about the love triangle all the way through (and hints won't prove your point here if he didn't say the actual words). He ultimately failed to show worth in the series until the very end, which is when he had what I'd call a "life-or-death experience" by being shot down by Brera.

But there are things I liked about his series persona. Disregarding all of the bad stuff, he really is a good character who had potential to actually be a nice hero for Frontier. His background is deep, his attitude is attractive, and even his piloting skills are unmatched (except by androids like Brera). He is very duty bound. That attracted me right away. He attaches himself to people when he has no actual attachment to them emotionally. For example: Ranka and Sheryl. In the beginning, there is no emotional attachment to either but he joins the S.M.S. for Ranka's sake. I felt then that his character really had a chance but the directors messed it up for him.

The Alto from the movie verse knew which side he was gonna be on. From the beginning of the second movie, he listens to Ranka and takes her words to heart, and so, in the battle, he cannot bring himself to shoot at the Vajra until Brera goats him into doing so. He made great choices in the war field and once again brought back up his "duty bound" self but it didn't become an entire part of his persona like in the series. Instead, it is part of him, but not a big part. His piloting skills still remain as sharp as ever.

However, there are also bad parts to him that pull me away. He's too open. His background is either forgotten or dropped, possibly even avoided. His personality has otherwise changed. He's not as gruff or rude anymore. He doesn't come off as a mysterious or otherwise interesting character but rather one who gets pulled with the flow. He is easily fooled by both romance and duty: for one, possibly falling for Sheryl, and for two, believing everyone (over her) that she is a spy.

But the one part I absolutely hate about the movie verse is how they put Alto romantically. He didn't actually have to choose, it was already done. By the hospital scene in movie two, Alto had already chosen Sheryl. It wasn't a shock to me because they were around each other 24/7 but also, Alto was so open and welcoming that he was like a freaking doormat. It's not only me who sees this but some AR fans have stated it. He is too wrapped up in Sheryl for a person he's just met. Whether it be believing she's a spy or actually viewing her as a friend/romantic interest, he's always around her. The two of them just clung to each other in the movie verse to the point where Alto felt the urge to quit when Sheryl was arrested. He also felt the urge to quit (but changed his mind) when she was considered dead.

The Alto from the series whom had all of his correct background, would not have been like that with Sheryl. Which makes his new character OOC to me.

So you see, I have a hard time saying whether I like Alto or not.
Oh, don't worry, I've long wondered about the discrepancy between the Alto/Ranka shipping and what Ranka fans want Alto to actually be like as a person. ^^

But I have to agree and disagree with you on several things. First off, I agree that Alto is very duty bound in the series, which is something which endeared him massively to me. While, in the end, his attitude of "them or us" was wrong, he formed it on the best information which was available to him at all times. When he found out, literally in the last episode, that the Vajra were also pawns of the Galaxy conspiracy and simply didn't understand how humanity functioned, he was able to let go of his hate immediately.

Him being this honor-bound and loyal is one of the main factors why I am one of the principal champions for this widely misunderstood character.

I have to disagree on simply labeling him indecisive, however. I strongly believe ( however that is a personal judgement, based on what I saw in the series ) that he noticed that Sheryl was seriously in love with him in episode 12 and was basically told by Michael about Rankas feelings for him at the end of the same episode. If that wasn't enough indication, the sing-off in episode fifteen made it crystal clear what was going on with the girls.

His lack of decision on whom to choose, however, was not something which I chalk up to indecisiveness, but rather a desire not to hurt the other girl. We clearly disagree on whom he would have chosen, but my main point is that rather than indecision, I put his lack of just telling his own feelings to the two girls on his not wanting to break the heart of the "other" girl.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I beg to differ.

Sheryl was very selfish, especially in the beginning of the series. And I'll get into more detail about that in the Romance Thread later when I have more time.

I'll answer your one piece. It can be "logically condemned." It should. For one thing, you guys all use that whole scene as an excuse to justify her selflessness. Countless times you've all said "she feels guilty for making him stay with her out of duty." However, if she has to feel guilty, she's selfish. There is no deed in the world that isn't selfish in its own way. Even when she helps Ranka, it's selfish because she expects something in return, like even the girl's cooperation. In all reality, Sheryl is selfish.

However, her movie self was not. She chooses to be a spy for Galaxy for her own selfish reasons. The flashback with Alto and Grace's regards to him prove it. She's a spy infiltrating Frontier so she can get close to Alto, but not for what he stated in the first movie, rather out of romantic interest. And actually, Sheryl never showed that she wasn't going through with Grace's plans to harvest Ranka's organs. However, in the end, she decided against the plan after realizing their feelings were the same and they had become like sisters. At that time, she decided to tell Alto of what Grace was planning for Ranka when Brera showed up. That doesn't make her selfish but rather selfless. And when she pushes Ranka to Alto to save her rather than herself was another selfless move. And finally, choosing to sing to reach out to Alto and Ranka, as well as honor Grace's final wish, she does so, once again being selfless. She then sings just like the series, literally to death, to save Frontier; another selfless act.

Her series persona clashes dearly with her movie persona in this discussion. Her series self was selfish yes, but lacked selfless behaviors that would otherwise prove your point. I could give you a long list of times of which she was selfish in the series versus the selfless behavior. However, in the movie verse, that list would be opposite (in which more selfless than selfish). I think Thess already started on that role.
Two points: One, you focus much too much on the literal meaning of the word "selflessness". Nobody in real life is totally selfless and one cannot hold Sheryl to a degree that she has to be 100% selfless at all times.

Point two: It's a matter of degrees. The points which you point out as Sheryl of the series being selfish are not very important on an ethical scale. Yes, she wants to be loved. Ethically, that is about one of the most natural things a human being can feel.

I think your other examples will probably focus in part on her being rather vain. That, however, has little to do with selfishness, at least in how she expressed that behaviour.

However, I strongly disagree that Sheryl of the series showed little selflessness. That completely disregards that she was very much willing to sacrifice her life for the fleet and literally sang herself to death... she was only saved by Ranka gaining sudden magic abilities. And although she knew that she was being used by Leon, she put that aside at seeing the citizens of Frontier grieve for their loved ones.


And I think I am not taking away from movie!Sheryls awesomeness, because I know that she made the same type of decisions. But I have to acknowledge that her seriously considering the harvesting of Rankas organs is a dark side to her, something which makes her rather more selfish, on an ethical scale, than Sheryl of the series, who just wanted to have the person whom she loved most at her side, while at the same time she was willingly sacrificing herself for a people who she otherwise barely knew. Sheryl from the series simply doesn't have a comparable dark act in her resumé.

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Actually, no; no story changes. It can still stay the same.

Brera is a spy from Galaxy but Sheryl is not involved in the conspiracy. Her concert is how Alto and Ranka meet but she leaves afterward, meaning her earring never gets lost. Alto thus grows attached to Ranka and decides to join the S.M.S. to protect her. She grows attached to Alto. Then Brera shows up as a contender. However, his brother/sister complex for her would stop her from taking him seriously. In the end, it would be revealed that he's a spy and Galaxy is the enemy. Ranka still would've chosen to leave Frontier in order to better understand her past and the Vajra and left with Brera, however, her feelings for Alto would remain. Alto would rescue Ranka, return her feelings, and they'd both rescue Brera together.

So you see, the story stays similar (or actually the same) but the roles are changed. No one fills in Sheryl's role because there is no need for such.

In a love triangle between those three, Ranka would end up with Alto.

It's simply about the fact that given how Alto and Ranka reacted towards each other in the series, if the story wasn't to change and only the roles, then the same would apply in that changed universe. Brera and Ranka interactions would remain along the same lines of "big brother" in her eyes.
I maintain that the story itself would change due to the necessary changes in characterization. Brera was too passive a character in the series and the movies to be considered a main character, something which is necessary to maintain the tension in a romantic triangle with two other main characters. Sure, if you want Alto to be the certain victor, you could maintain Brera as a side character, but to be considered an actual rival, he'd have to be elevated to a star position. And that would require a significant rewrite of the plot.

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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Just a note, before it goes off into circles again.

I know this is the Macross sub-forum, but if you look back to her original comment on it, Thess was merely using Macross Plus as an example of a particular trope in anime/manga (bolded)



And a grand total of what...4 triangles (in Macross) isn't a particularly good sample size for arguing in support of anything anyway.


Other than that, do carry on
Pointing out a trope is basically saying "the plot will probably go like this, because it is what happens in most other plots of the same type". Me saying that SDFM and Frontier show that tropes do not apply as often in this franchise as in other more "typical" animes is also completely legitimate. As they like to say on TVTropes: Subverted.
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Old 2012-02-02, 07:33   Link #3713
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I see your point. And I don't think we disagree here. While you focus on the "rewrite of the series" part, I focus on the "rewrite of the characters" part.
Then we agree to disagree.

We both have different views.

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Oh, don't worry, I've long wondered about the discrepancy between the Alto/Ranka shipping and what Ranka fans want Alto to actually be like as a person. ^^
And oddly enough, most Alto/Ranka fans dislike Alto entirely for his movie persona.

Rather, if you took Alto from the second half of the series and deleted him then added the calm and collected (even smart) Alto of the second movie, the series would've been epic win. And I don't mean in the romantic way at all but rather the mecha and war.

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But I have to agree and disagree with you on several things. First off, I agree that Alto is very duty bound in the series, which is something which endeared him massively to me. While, in the end, his attitude of "them or us" was wrong, he formed it on the best information which was available to him at all times. When he found out, literally in the last episode, that the Vajra were also pawns of the Galaxy conspiracy and simply didn't understand how humanity functioned, he was able to let go of his hate immediately.

Him being this honor-bound and loyal is one of the main factors why I am one of the principal champions for this widely misunderstood character.
But once again, you avoid my point: people chose his path for him. One example that is very big is Mishima. He gave Alto false facts (and I say false because given the fact that it was Galaxy whom was the true enemy and Mishima was previously a member of said group and was still in leagues with them until a certain point of the story, they were lies) and twisted his head around.

Regardless of "information which was available to him at the times" or not, he still choose to believe those false facts. He questioned nothing. He basically said "they are my enemy." I blame his duty-bound behavior for this, as he is attached to Frontier as its protector and must see the Vajra as enemies or risk losing what his purpose is, but the movie justifies my point.

In the second movie, when Ranka spoke to him about the Vajra having souls and feelings, he later begins (in the middle of a battle no less) to question "is this my enemy?" Because he questioned his own government's view of the war, he was able to see evidence that put the Vajra on good terms: they helped their comrades in front of him. Later, when they are discussing the Vajra's feelings, he's able to give his own little input.

Saying that he didn't have enough information is a folly because I have to disagree. When Ranka is rescued from the mother ship by Brera, Alto never once questions why the Vajra kept her alive. He never once questioned things in the series. He just let the plot and characters around him drag him on. Ozma was the bigger person in this. He and Catherine immediately picked up on the opposite side of the war and began to question their own government's view of it. They then took the rest of the S.M.S. with them (excluding Luca and Alto).

So when I say he's duty-bound, that is a good thing when it comes to Frontier, Ranka, Sheryl, and his friends; but it's a bad thing when he cannot see the enemy when it's clear as day. It's not like it wasn't there to see. There were hints, hell, Ranka dropped a bomb, but Alto didn't pick it up that the Vajra weren't his enemies but rather confused allies.

--

And this might seem a little off that topic, but my new theory about the Vajra attacking Frontier is that perhaps Galaxy attacked the Vajra first and since Frontier is Galaxy's sister (traveling near it), they attacked it believing it was involved (especially since Sheryl, a member of Galaxy and a person holding the fold quartz was there). Then they found Ranka - whom they believed to be a member of their race - on Frontier and their war with Frontier began.

That's just a theory, but it slightly holds water considering a few days after Sheryl arrives, Grace says "they waited right until your concert." Which means the Vajra have been attacking Galaxy before in my opinion.

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I have to disagree on simply labeling him indecisive, however. I strongly believe ( however that is a personal judgement, based on what I saw in the series ) that he noticed that Sheryl was seriously in love with him in episode 12 and was basically told by Michael about Rankas feelings for him at the end of the same episode. If that wasn't enough indication, the sing-off in episode fifteen made it crystal clear what was going on with the girls.

His lack of decision on whom to choose, however, was not something which I chalk up to indecisiveness, but rather a desire not to hurt the other girl. We clearly disagree on whom he would have chosen, but my main point is that rather than indecision, I put his lack of just telling his own feelings to the two girls on his not wanting to break the heart of the "other" girl.
I'm going to mark this a heavy disagree.

I love your post for bringing this up though.

But it is indecisiveness.

What you just wrote down actually proves my point more than you realize. You state that he was aware of their feelings by the later episodes. You also state that he didn't want to hurt them.

However, if he was aware of their feelings, when Ranka left, what was stopping him from stating his feelings - in words - to Sheryl? He couldn't possibly hurt Ranka's feelings at that point. (This also works for the movie verse with Sheryl being considered dead and Ranka being alive.)

If he could see their feelings, then I have to ask why he didn't state his feelings when they were hurt by his lack of reply? If he could see their feelings, he had to be aware of that. 20 showed that when Ranka is crying. 22 showed that when Sheryl is crying. So why not state his feelings after already hurting them? If he was aware...

That's why I call it indecisiveness.

He's not aware of their feelings but rather his own. Why do you think all of us Alto/Ranka fans are actually floored that Alto/Sheryl fans will bring up Sheryl's disease in arguments? Alto isn't aware that Sheryl is suffering from the disease. He thinks it's a cold or a fever that will go away like nothing. He isn't aware of her feelings for him nor Ranka's. That is what makes him indecisive.

He didn't pick a girl in words because he was afraid to hurt him - he'd already done that if he actually realized their feelings - but because he simply can't. He's indecisive.

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Two points: One, you focus much too much on the literal meaning of the word "selflessness". Nobody in real life is totally selfless and one cannot hold Sheryl to a degree that she has to be 100% selfless at all times.
Well, I agree to that. I even stated that: "even the most selfless act is selfish."

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Point two: It's a matter of degrees. The points which you point out as Sheryl of the series being selfish are not very important on an ethical scale. Yes, she wants to be loved. Ethically, that is about one of the most natural things a human being can feel.
Except she's not thinking about his feelings is my point entirely. Which is why she feels guilty. And that makes her selfish. Instead of saying "forget about me, worry about others or Ranka," she allows him to stay by her side because she selfishly wants to be loved, and she fails to think about his feelings in the situation, and instead chooses to allow him to stay because he requested to.

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I think your other examples will probably focus in part on her being rather vain. That, however, has little to do with selfishness, at least in how she expressed that behaviour.
Actually, one of my examples is not helping or otherwise assisting Miranda, considering she wants to be helpful and make the movie a bit success for Ranka. Instead, she stands her aside.

Which I still wanna put a "bitch, get out the way," on that scene because I love that piece of the episode.

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However, I strongly disagree that Sheryl of the series showed little selflessness. That completely disregards that she was very much willing to sacrifice her life for the fleet and literally sang herself to death... she was only saved by Ranka gaining sudden magic abilities. And although she knew that she was being used by Leon, she put that aside at seeing the citizens of Frontier grieve for their loved ones.
How does saying "knows she's being used by Mishima" put her away from her movie self of "knowing she's being used by Galaxy?"

And overall, Sheryl showed very selfish behavior in the series and did not care for Frontier until later in the series. Notice that she sings for Galaxy in 6 (though also Alto, and that itself shows it) but doesn't realize that it will cause harm to Frontier in the near future. In the movie, that justifies my point. Sings for Galaxy, Vajra appear at Frontier, and she doesn't sing until Alto is shot down.

Using the end of the series as an argument doesn't work. You have to look at what she's done in the past as well. She was more selfish in the series. Just her desire to take Alto into the sky in 12, thus disregarding the fact she's there for charity, proves my point.

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And I think I am not taking away from movie!Sheryls awesomeness, because I know that she made the same type of decisions. But I have to acknowledge that her seriously considering the harvesting of Rankas organs is a dark side to her, something which makes her rather more selfish, on an ethical scale, than Sheryl of the series, who just wanted to have the person whom she loved most at her side, while at the same time she was willingly sacrificing herself for a people who she otherwise barely knew. Sheryl from the series simply doesn't have a comparable dark act in her resumé.
Actually, Sheryl grew attached to Frontier in the series because of its people. Not only because of Alto but Ranka, Michael, Klan, Nanase, and all of her fans there. The people she met there inspired her. And so she wanted to protect them. However, by the time she felt this unyielding need to do so, she was told she was dying.

In the movie, this is revoked and Sheryl is given an actual chance from the get-go to prove herself a selfless person by singing to help save Ranka in the first movie (though regrettably she starts after Alto is shot down), and later in movie two, she is allowed to stand up and sing to help Frontier save the Vajra (and themselves).

I didn't say I entirely hated her movie persona, but I wish it would've been a little bit more blended with her series self.

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I maintain that the story itself would change due to the necessary changes in characterization. Brera was too passive a character in the series and the movies to be considered a main character, something which is necessary to maintain the tension in a romantic triangle with two other main characters. Sure, if you want Alto to be the certain victor, you could maintain Brera as a side character, but to be considered an actual rival, he'd have to be elevated to a star position. And that would require a significant rewrite of the plot.
Well, yes; a bit of the plot would be rewritten.

However, it's not about "if I want" Alto to win the triangle in that sense. It's more along the lines that he would. Brera would still be an android (or cyborg) and Alto would still be the one who rescued Ranka in the beginning (because the plot doesn't change entirely). Brera is already a pilot so Alto joins the S.M.S. to protect Ranka. Without Sheryl around, Alto is always at Ranka's side. Brera maintains that "brother/sister" complex sadly because he has no emotions (ultimately). And Ranka would be attracted to the guy whom otherwise is the most sensitive and a person she can connect with: Alto. However, I won't say there isn't a possibility of Brera being a big part of her life, I just don't think that he could ever love her properly, given that he is unable to have actual feelings. And so, he would lose ultimately because she is a person who needs someone to love her for real. (And that being said, I think the same goes for Sheryl in some cases, albeit Sheryl just wants someone to love her, which is why Brera fits perfectly for her, since he caters to one's every need.)

---

Hey, magnus, are we actually having a nice discussion??

I'm shocked. I just realized we aren't fighting. I like this conversation.
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Old 2012-02-02, 07:49   Link #3714
karice67
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Pointing out a trope is basically saying "the plot will probably go like this, because it is what happens in most other plots of the same type". Me saying that SDFM and Frontier show that tropes do not apply as often in this franchise as in other more "typical" animes is also completely legitimate. As they like to say on TVTropes: Subverted.
Well, as I noted before, 4 triangles is such a ridiculously low sample-size that I wouldn't bother arguing that way, especially considering there was just one of the 2 male, 1 female type in question.

Not to mention: that's if the proposed triangle fits the trope in the first place.

Personally, I'd have argued that, assuming their characters remained as they are in the series we did get, the 'what-if' Alto-Ranka-Brera triangle doesn't actually fit the premise of the trope anyway. Or, at least, not in the form that Thess was arguing.
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Last edited by karice67; 2012-02-02 at 08:02.
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Old 2012-02-02, 07:59   Link #3715
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especially considering there was just one of the 2 male, 1 female type in question.
There are two, Plus and 7.

Just to correct you on that, karice.
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Old 2012-02-02, 08:04   Link #3716
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touché.

5 and 2 then.

But still a ridiculously low sample size
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Old 2012-02-02, 08:21   Link #3717
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touché.

5 and 2 then.

But still a ridiculously low sample size
Agreed.

Even I wouldn't use past triangles as references to justify who would win a "what if." That would be pointless considering each character has been different.

And I didn't know if you'd read my previous post of "two." That's why I corrected you. I didn't mean to sound harsh.
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Old 2012-02-02, 08:56   Link #3718
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
But once again, you avoid my point: people chose his path for him. One example that is very big is Mishima. He gave Alto false facts (and I say false because given the fact that it was Galaxy whom was the true enemy and Mishima was previously a member of said group and was still in leagues with them until a certain point of the story, they were lies) and twisted his head around.

Regardless of "information which was available to him at the times" or not, he still choose to believe those false facts. He questioned nothing. He basically said "they are my enemy." I blame his duty-bound behavior for this, as he is attached to Frontier as its protector and must see the Vajra as enemies or risk losing what his purpose is, but the movie justifies my point.
I cannot blame Alto for going on the best information available to him. He is neither high enough in the chain of command to demand better information nor does he have the possibility to obtain it. Ozma and Cathy chose to not share their information on Leon with him, so he had no way of knowing that Leon had taken over the government illegaly. As far as he knew, President Glass died during the Vajra attack... not exactly an illogical scenario, seeing how Glass avoided just barely getting shot to pieces by a Vajra larva when they first attacked.

So, no, I am not avoiding your point. I am simply agreeing with Alto on how he formed his opinion. And it remains true: Alto does easily change his point of view to a more reasonable one as soon as he gets better information.

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In the second movie, when Ranka spoke to him about the Vajra having souls and feelings, he later begins (in the middle of a battle no less) to question "is this my enemy?" Because he questioned his own government's view of the war, he was able to see evidence that put the Vajra on good terms: they helped their comrades in front of him. Later, when they are discussing the Vajra's feelings, he's able to give his own little input.

Saying that he didn't have enough information is a folly because I have to disagree. When Ranka is rescued from the mother ship by Brera, Alto never once questions why the Vajra kept her alive. He never once questioned things in the series. He just let the plot and characters around him drag him on. Ozma was the bigger person in this. He and Catherine immediately picked up on the opposite side of the war and began to question their own government's view of it. They then took the rest of the S.M.S. with them (excluding Luca and Alto).

So when I say he's duty-bound, that is a good thing when it comes to Frontier, Ranka, Sheryl, and his friends; but it's a bad thing when he cannot see the enemy when it's clear as day. It's not like it wasn't there to see. There were hints, hell, Ranka dropped a bomb, but Alto didn't pick it up that the Vajra weren't his enemies but rather confused allies.
I disagree that it is "clear as day" who is the real enemy. Leon does not publically behave like a maniac. Besides his horrible haircut, he presents himself as the perfect aide and the legitimate choice to succeed President Glass.

And while you are correct in saying that Alto doesn't question why Ranka was taken captive by the Vajra... so doesn't everyone else, either. Primarily, it would fall to Ranka to present her experience with the Vajra queen to anybody. But she doesn't. It's a toss-up if she had another case of disassociative amnesia or if she simply didn't feel like talking about it.

But as everybody else just ignored the question on the table ( i.e. "why is Ranka alive and what did the Vajra want with her?" ), I cannot in good conscience single out Alto as someone who deserves special blame for this. It's simply a plot hole in the series.

And Ozma, Cathy and SMS left Frontier in large part because they had no choice. Mishima was going to silence Ozma and Cathy, so their bonds of fellowship alone were a big part of their collective decision. As to the motivation of finding Ranka and so on... besides finding out that Grace was a member of the 117th and that Sheryl was indeed Maos granddaughter ( which they didn't even really found out themselves ), their whole journey came down to returning at the exact correct time to help out Frontier. They didn't nearly accomplish the goal of "finding Ranka".

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
And this might seem a little off that topic, but my new theory about the Vajra attacking Frontier is that perhaps Galaxy attacked the Vajra first and since Frontier is Galaxy's sister (traveling near it), they attacked it believing it was involved (especially since Sheryl, a member of Galaxy and a person holding the fold quartz was there). Then they found Ranka - whom they believed to be a member of their race - on Frontier and their war with Frontier began.

That's just a theory, but it slightly holds water considering a few days after Sheryl arrives, Grace says "they waited right until your concert." Which means the Vajra have been attacking Galaxy before in my opinion.
Uh, are you talking about the movie or series? Because in the series, the conspirators from Galaxy outright tell us in episode 15 that they led the Vajra to Frontier.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I'm going to mark this a heavy disagree.

I love your post for bringing this up though.

But it is indecisiveness.

What you just wrote down actually proves my point more than you realize. You state that he was aware of their feelings by the later episodes. You also state that he didn't want to hurt them.

However, if he was aware of their feelings, when Ranka left, what was stopping him from stating his feelings - in words - to Sheryl? He couldn't possibly hurt Ranka's feelings at that point. (This also works for the movie verse with Sheryl being considered dead and Ranka being alive.)

If he could see their feelings, then I have to ask why he didn't state his feelings when they were hurt by his lack of reply? If he could see their feelings, he had to be aware of that. 20 showed that when Ranka is crying. 22 showed that when Sheryl is crying. So why not state his feelings after already hurting them? If he was aware...

That's why I call it indecisiveness.

He's not aware of their feelings but rather his own. Why do you think all of us Alto/Ranka fans are actually floored that Alto/Sheryl fans will bring up Sheryl's disease in arguments? Alto isn't aware that Sheryl is suffering from the disease. He thinks it's a cold or a fever that will go away like nothing. He isn't aware of her feelings for him nor Ranka's. That is what makes him indecisive.

He didn't pick a girl in words because he was afraid to hurt him - he'd already done that if he actually realized their feelings - but because he simply can't. He's indecisive.
I draw a distinction between pure indecisiveness ( i.e. he literally doesn't know what he wants and is paralyzed by indecision ) and what you associate with Altos behaviour. Sure, a more forceful character could just have gone ahead and chosen one of the girls, in the vein of "Rather an end with terror, than a terror without end". But I think that he feared losing that other girl completely, something he wanted to avoid. He appreciated both of them as friends and didn't want to lose one of them.

As for why he avoided deciding in the respective moments you mentioned? Episode 20, it's pretty easy for me to make a statement: Because he didn't love Ranka in that way. And because she was asking him to go on a suicide mission to talk to an enemy whom he despised and whom he was was sure that they were just mindless killing machines. Ranka really didn't present her evidence very well at that meeting.

As for episode 22, that's a wholly more complex issue. Trying to explain the complexity of Altos and Sheryls respective feelings and decision making processes at that time and in the episodes to follow would probably be enough material to write a whole essay on the matter. That's more time investment than I feel comfortable with at this moment.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Except she's not thinking about his feelings is my point entirely. Which is why she feels guilty. And that makes her selfish. Instead of saying "forget about me, worry about others or Ranka," she allows him to stay by her side because she selfishly wants to be loved, and she fails to think about his feelings in the situation, and instead chooses to allow him to stay because he requested to.
Uh, so she allows him to stay by her side by his own decision and that makes her selfish? That doesn't make much sense to me. There is, to be honest, little reason for her to "let him go" at that moment, because he once again did not have the means to go after Ranka, even if he would have wanted to. He did not know where Ranka was, he had no mode to get there and, frankly, he did not really want to go alone, because he knew that it'd be a suicide mission.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Actually, one of my examples is not helping or otherwise assisting Miranda, considering she wants to be helpful and make the movie a bit success for Ranka. Instead, she stands her aside.

Which I still wanna put a "bitch, get out the way," on that scene because I love that piece of the episode.
Well, it's not as if Miranda was asking for her help in any shape or form, so I don't see your point, really...

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
How does saying "knows she's being used by Mishima" put her away from her movie self of "knowing she's being used by Galaxy?"

And overall, Sheryl showed very selfish behavior in the series and did not care for Frontier until later in the series. Notice that she sings for Galaxy in 6 (though also Alto, and that itself shows it) but doesn't realize that it will cause harm to Frontier in the near future. In the movie, that justifies my point. Sings for Galaxy, Vajra appear at Frontier, and she doesn't sing until Alto is shot down.

Using the end of the series as an argument doesn't work. You have to look at what she's done in the past as well. She was more selfish in the series. Just her desire to take Alto into the sky in 12, thus disregarding the fact she's there for charity, proves my point.
Because she does not have magical ability to get inside information that Leon was really a power hungry maniac, just like Alto did not have that ability. She simply didn't like Leon much and recognized that he was using her, instead of him making a genuine appeal for the good of the people. Actually, I will give Leon that he probably was thinking a little bit about that, too... because being President Of Nothing is not what he was trying to be.

And how exactly does wanting to take Alto to see the sky make her selfish... besides wanting him at her side? The charity thing is separate and she agreed to that before deciding to take Alto along. If you have any evidence that she was going to neglect her duties at the relief concert, feel free to present it. As it is, there is no indication that she was going to skip any appointments to fly around a bit with Alto. It's not as if there is any indication that she had to spent 100% singing while on Gallia IV.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Actually, Sheryl grew attached to Frontier in the series because of its people. Not only because of Alto but Ranka, Michael, Klan, Nanase, and all of her fans there. The people she met there inspired her. And so she wanted to protect them. However, by the time she felt this unyielding need to do so, she was told she was dying.

In the movie, this is revoked and Sheryl is given an actual chance from the get-go to prove herself a selfless person by singing to help save Ranka in the first movie (though regrettably she starts after Alto is shot down), and later in movie two, she is allowed to stand up and sing to help Frontier save the Vajra (and themselves).

I didn't say I entirely hated her movie persona, but I wish it would've been a little bit more blended with her series self.
I found her series persona to be much more natural, too. The turning point where she commits herself to giving her life for Frontier is after the Vajra attack, precisely after her talk with Leon and Luca.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Well, yes; a bit of the plot would be rewritten.

However, it's not about "if I want" Alto to win the triangle in that sense. It's more along the lines that he would. Brera would still be an android (or cyborg) and Alto would still be the one who rescued Ranka in the beginning (because the plot doesn't change entirely). Brera is already a pilot so Alto joins the S.M.S. to protect Ranka. Without Sheryl around, Alto is always at Ranka's side. Brera maintains that "brother/sister" complex sadly because he has no emotions (ultimately). And Ranka would be attracted to the guy whom otherwise is the most sensitive and a person she can connect with: Alto. However, I won't say there isn't a possibility of Brera being a big part of her life, I just don't think that he could ever love her properly, given that he is unable to have actual feelings. And so, he would lose ultimately because she is a person who needs someone to love her for real. (And that being said, I think the same goes for Sheryl in some cases, albeit Sheryl just wants someone to love her, which is why Brera fits perfectly for her, since he caters to one's every need.)
I'm going to drop this, because I really don't want to go around plotting out an entire movie around this premise.

---

One point I have to make in regards how you seem to make judgements on the characters, you seem to assume that the characters have the same gods eye view of the plot as we do and means to get any information they would care to find. This is not how I'd analyze a characters motivations, I try to view things from the amount of information said character had in the actual story and his/her actual means to obtain it. That is why I am much more forgiving of Alto being a bit fanatical in his desire to destroy the Vajra and with other character aspects which I've mentioned. Or more unforgiving, in the case of Ranka.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Hey, magnus, are we actually having a nice discussion??

I'm shocked. I just realized we aren't fighting. I like this conversation.
What can I say, I'm feeling really mellow right now and in the mood for a discussion.

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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Well, as I noted before, 4 triangles is such a ridiculously low sample-size that I wouldn't bother arguing that way, especially considering there was just one of the 2 male, 1 female type in question.

Not to mention: that's if the proposed triangle fits the trope in the first place.

Personally, I'd have argued that, assuming their characters remained as they are in the series we did get, the 'what-if' Alto-Ranka-Brera triangle doesn't actually fit the premise of the trope anyway. Or, at least, not in the form that Thess was arguing.
My point is that within that small sample size, we have significant discrepancies to what goes as "common wisdom" nowadays for anime romances. So stating that "usually romances go like that" is not applicable to what we have seen so far from the franchise.
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Old 2012-02-03, 13:35   Link #3719
LoveMeKags
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I cannot blame Alto for going on the best information available to him. He is neither high enough in the chain of command to demand better information nor does he have the possibility to obtain it. Ozma and Cathy chose to not share their information on Leon with him, so he had no way of knowing that Leon had taken over the government illegaly. As far as he knew, President Glass died during the Vajra attack... not exactly an illogical scenario, seeing how Glass avoided just barely getting shot to pieces by a Vajra larva when they first attacked.

So, no, I am not avoiding your point. I am simply agreeing with Alto on how he formed his opinion. And it remains true: Alto does easily change his point of view to a more reasonable one as soon as he gets better information.
Well, I'll agree along the terms of "what was available" but not questioning whether that information was true nor doing research of his own really stunted that point you made. Like you guys have said to me in the past, "do research," Alto should've done the same.

So my point stands.

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I disagree that it is "clear as day" who is the real enemy. Leon does not publically behave like a maniac. Besides his horrible haircut, he presents himself as the perfect aide and the legitimate choice to succeed President Glass.
Actually, it was.

Where is it not obvious?

In 14, Alto was there when Ranka was captured by the Vajra and also when she was rescued by Brera. Not once in that episode does he start to put two and two together. He doesn't really revolve around understanding the enemy he's out to kill. I'm not saying he doesn't have purpose to kill them, but they didn't kill his one reason to protect (Ranka) and he didn't even bat an eye to ask anyone (or himself) why. That is where the "clear as day" starts.

In 15, a good example of this is that he doesn't question Brera's role on Frontier nor his purpose for arriving and helping Ranka. Previous episodes have shown that Brera is a threat (or enemy). And Alto has all the reasons to be upset with him for trying to harm his friends. However, he acts like a jealous boyfriend instead. He was there when Brera tried to kill him and there when he came to rescue Ranka, and also stating he was from Galaxy. Now, if we take his arrival earlier on (trying to kill Alto and his comrades) and his arrival now (proclaiming to be from Galaxy); where along these lines does it not become clear?

Had he not appeared beforehand and tried to kill them, had he not later stated he was from Galaxy, had he not rescued Ranka then; then I wouldn't be able to say it was clear as day who the enemy was.

And there's more pieces in which Alto was there to witness.

In 15, Alto was there when Mishima's guards came to collect Ranka. He never questioned why she was being summoned by the government!

So let's rehash for a bit: since 12, we (as the audience) have seen everything Alto has not (including Grace's betrayal). However, in the episodes to follow (14 and 15), Alto has been given hints and clues (some that are "clear as day").

So coming around to 15, Ranka is summoned by the government!
Me to Alto: "Hell, Alto; don't you think that's strange? Don't you think it's weird? How often does an idol or even just a normal teenager get summoned by the government WITHOUT having used their equipment? I sure as hell know Minmei wasn't--she volunteered. So why are you not questioning it?"

Don't you see? She is summoned by the government without a valid reason (whilst he's right next to her) and that makes it suspicious. He should have questioned it. He should've started putting the pieces together upon Brera's arrival but he didn't. Instead, it flew right over his head.

Then, the best of all happens: Grace becomes Ranka's manager.

Notice that when Alto assists Sheryl in later episodes, she mentions this; but he never finds it suspicious. And I often wonder why. List of people here:
- Sheryl Nome (from Galaxy, birthplace unknown)
- Grace O'Connor (from Galaxy, unknown to Alto that she's an elite)
- Brera Sterne (from Galaxy)
Okay, I know this may just be my perspective of Alto at this point: but don't you realize that Alto should be wondering why members of Galaxy outside of Sheryl are suddenly interested in Ranka, whom has been shown before him to influence the Vajra? By now, he knows Grace is from Galaxy (because of Sheryl) and Brera has stated outright that he's from Galaxy.

Alto never does the math until the final episode. That's the sad part about his character.

You can give your own view, hell; you can even add scenes that I haven't put up, but I'm positive it was clear to more than just Ozma and Catherine that something was going down. Alto just didn't want to put the math together. And I don't really blame him: lived on Frontier his whole life, wants to believe he's protecting people, and wants to protect Frontier with his life; but he sadly fails to see he's the one being setup.

By the way, as a side note: 13, Alto says "the data's been erased previously" in Macross Global. That was another clue he didn't think about.

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Primarily, it would fall to Ranka to present her experience with the Vajra queen to anybody. But she doesn't. It's a toss-up if she had another case of disassociative amnesia or if she simply didn't feel like talking about it.
I think I will chop up to saying that Ranka simply wants to understand it all herself.

I know that sounds weird but think about it from your perspective for a moment: if you just remembered something absolutely traumatizing from your past, would you want to talk about it directly after or understand it first?

And in her shoes, she didn't really have time to understand it. She was lost. Which is why the later episodes start to show her growing weary of her connection to the Vajra.

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But as everybody else just ignored the question on the table ( i.e. "why is Ranka alive and what did the Vajra want with her?" ), I cannot in good conscience single out Alto as someone who deserves special blame for this. It's simply a plot hole in the series.
I have to say that Ozma and Catherine had been looking into their government's plot for a while yet. I suspect that Ozma had a clue when he requested Alto protect Ranka no matter what that the Vajra needed her for something or Mishima was going to use her. At this point, Ranka was summoned by the government and her singing had already influenced the Vajra once. So I'm inclined to say that there were people who were becoming suspicious, however, Alto wasn't one of them.

And remember that Michael and Klan were growing suspicious of Sheryl's illness enough to look into documents about the project she was in. There they found Grace was one of the researchers. From there, Michael and Klan both start to show suspicion.

Mishima and Grace were already aware of the plot.

The ones who remained unaware were Alto, Luca, Nanase, and slightly, Sheryl. Ranka was already starting to research or otherwise try and piece the plot together on her own.

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They didn't nearly accomplish the goal of "finding Ranka".
It was a slight excuse that Ozma made to Alto: "she found her own path, now what will you do" insinuated that S.M.S. was following that path believing it was righteous, not particularly "following Ranka" but rather the ideals she'd set believing that there was something else to the war. Remember that both Ozma and Catherine caught view of Ranka leaving even without knowing it was them, then read the letter she left. So it is obvious they wanted to "follow by example" and show Frontier who the true enemy was. At that point, they had enough to put Mishima away, but no resources to show it to the government (meaning others besides Mishima) without getting executed by Mishima.

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Uh, are you talking about the movie or series? Because in the series, the conspirators from Galaxy outright tell us in episode 15 that they led the Vajra to Frontier.
Series.

Yes. I also mentioned that Frontier attacked first. I'm left to assume that when Frontier disregarded Galaxy's S.O.S., they were unaware the Vajra would next attack Frontier, and so they went on the offensive right away. So I stand by my theory that Frontier attacked first.

The movie is a whole other story though that I don't feel like dipping into because the plot is so screwed up in terms of events on the timeline.

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But I think that he feared losing that other girl completely, something he wanted to avoid. He appreciated both of them as friends and didn't want to lose one of them.
The sad part about that is, in 21, Ranka was already gone. He'd already lost her. If he didn't want to lose Sheryl, he had to say something; but he didn't. Which holds my statement of he's indecisive.

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Episode 20, it's pretty easy for me to make a statement: Because he didn't love Ranka in that way.
I'll just quote this and answer the whole thing to save space.

I'm sure we'll agree to disagree on this whole "whom he loved business," so I'll drop that.

However, at the time in which Ranka left, she really didn't understand the so-called "evidence" herself. She would sound like an insane person if she tried to explain everything to Alto at that point. And so, suicide mission or not, I can't truly blame her. She, herself, had little evidence to go by. All of her proof was in her memory, not written documents. What could she prove to Alto with memories when she's stated before that she has amnesia? Did you think he would take her seriously?

So I don't blame her nor Alto for this miscommunication here; because based on the time in which it happened (and Alto being completely oblivious to the changes in the government, even Glass' assassination) and the lack of written evidence to prove her points to him - Alto was left with no choice but to trust in his original ideals: the Vajra are enemies.

That coupled with Michael's recent death by one, and Nanase being injured... it kinda proves my point more.

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As for episode 22, that's a wholly more complex issue.
Complex? By this point, Alto has just found out she's dying. If he truly loves her, the woman he loves is dying. He made more of an upset about his mother dying than he did her. He should've been stating his feelings and then trying to make due with what time they had left together. Instead, he did not. And at this point, he's already lost Ranka; so nothing's holding him back. He doesn't know now if he'll see Ranka again or even if they'll be on the same side, so his indecision in this episode to state his feelings - in words - to Sheryl are chopped up to that "lack of reply" statement I made earlier, thus leading me along to believe still that he is "indecisive" and has feelings for both girls still.

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Uh, so she allows him to stay by her side by his own decision and that makes her selfish?
What makes her selfish?

I'll state in a simple fact: she doesn't ask him to communicate with her.

Back in 22, she didn't want to burden him, even in 23; but not once does she ask him to speak about his feelings. At this point, she should. Alto has repressed feelings about Ranka, the war, the Vajra, everything. He needs ventilation just like she did. He let her speak her mind. Why can Alto not do the same?

I hate to quote what someone once said but: "relationships need communication."

Sheryl is allowed to communicate but whenever Alto tries to communicate, she changes the subject or stops him. She doesn't cater to his feelings. He wants to speak. He wants to talk about his problems and his demons. He wants to open up to her (at least to speak about what's troubling him that day) but yet he cannot (not only because of her but himself). And instead of showing that she understands something is wrong in 23, she blushes, baffled at his fake smile and charming ways.

That comes off as selfish, especially in a relationship. If you don't acknowledge the other has something wrong and try to talk it out or at least ask if they are ready to, then you are being selfish, especially if you have already been allowed to or otherwise stated your problems and talked it out.

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Well, it's not as if Miranda was asking for her help in any shape or form, so I don't see your point, really...
No. She didn't. But Sheryl still should've acknowledged her in some way to show there's no hard feelings and to be a correct role model to Ranka.

Here's how it should have gone:
Miranda: Oh, it's Sheryl-san! (walks up) Sheryl-san, it's so great to see you!
Sheryl: Ah, thank you. It's nice to meet you. As I understand it, you are the lead. Good luck to you. (attention to Ranka again) Could you excuse me for a few moments? (passes her) Ranka-chan, I hear you too have a role in the movie.
Ranka: Yes.

Sheryl has shown manners before, even waved to her stunt team in episode one even though they'd pissed her off previously, so her excuse here baffles me. She should at least show proper educate to Miranda as a role model to Ranka. Also, when she first met Ranka, she showed proper educate, even complimented her.

Still, I like the scene regardless.

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Because she does not have magical ability to get inside information that Leon was really a power hungry maniac, just like Alto did not have that ability.
Once again, Alto could've done research. They weren't short of computers or data. Sheryl, on the other hand, I agree with; but however, the movie plan doesn't go along with your argument because Sheryl knew full well what was transpiring in Galaxy. The only thing she didn't know was that Frontier was their exact target.

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And how exactly does wanting to take Alto to see the sky make her selfish... besides wanting him at her side? The charity thing is separate and she agreed to that before deciding to take Alto along. If you have any evidence that she was going to neglect her duties at the relief concert, feel free to present it. As it is, there is no indication that she was going to skip any appointments to fly around a bit with Alto. It's not as if there is any indication that she had to spent 100% singing while on Gallia IV.
I'll leave this discussion alone for now because I'm still moving and therefore my DVDs for Frontier are boxed up now But I promise to give you a full-scale explanation when I finishing moving hopefully by June.

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I found her series persona to be much more natural, too. The turning point where she commits herself to giving her life for Frontier is after the Vajra attack, precisely after her talk with Leon and Luca.
Yes, that's why I say the movie version of herself really doesn't have a reason to fight for Frontier. I mean, she's lived there a total of how many months at most? Probably 4 or 5. And she's really only grown attached to Alto and Ranka. So the series version of herself in the end (fighting for Frontier) was justified that she'd grown attached to others besides the other two in the triangle.

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I'm going to drop this, because I really don't want to go around plotting out an entire movie around this premise.


I agree.

---

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One point I have to make in regards how you seem to make judgements on the characters, you seem to assume that the characters have the same gods eye view of the plot as we do and means to get any information they would care to find. This is not how I'd analyze a characters motivations, I try to view things from the amount of information said character had in the actual story and his/her actual means to obtain it. That is why I am much more forgiving of Alto being a bit fanatical in his desire to destroy the Vajra and with other character aspects which I've mentioned. Or more unforgiving, in the case of Ranka.
I gave answers to this above since you didn't actually watch the series back to see it was there. But I don't blame you for writing this. I wasn't on at the time to answer any questions you had or statements.

But I assure you, I'm not seeing it from the 3rd person point of view. I simply stated above how Alto was in the area at the time of all of those clues and didn't put it together until 25.

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What can I say, I'm feeling really mellow right now and in the mood for a discussion.
And we're having fun.

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My point is that within that small sample size, we have significant discrepancies to what goes as "common wisdom" nowadays for anime romances. So stating that "usually romances go like that" is not applicable to what we have seen so far from the franchise.
Except the longest running franchise to date is Frontier. But if we were to rewrite it as a triangle between two males and one female, we can't go off of Frontier to do so. We'd have to use Plus or 7, and they aren't exactly good examples because the characters are different this time around.

Albeit, Brera is the quiet type like Guld seemed in the beginning, it doesn't mean we could compare him to Guld and say Alto is Isamu.

I think you get my drift there.

Their personalities are too different.
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Old 2012-02-03, 16:48   Link #3720
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Well, I'll agree along the terms of "what was available" but not questioning whether that information was true nor doing research of his own really stunted that point you made. Like you guys have said to me in the past, "do research," Alto should've done the same.

So my point stands.
Two points as to that:

First, do research where? I said it in my last post, I'll say it again: Alto really did not have access to a lot of information and the people who knew more than him were unwilling to share their information with him.

Secondly, even if we go by the standard that he could have done some research, the same goes for everyone else in the show. I won't blame him for a lack of curiousity if that same lack is universal to the other characters ( who are not in on the conspiracy ).

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Actually, it was.

Where is it not obvious?

In 14, Alto was there when Ranka was captured by the Vajra and also when she was rescued by Brera. Not once in that episode does he start to put two and two together. He doesn't really revolve around understanding the enemy he's out to kill. I'm not saying he doesn't have purpose to kill them, but they didn't kill his one reason to protect (Ranka) and he didn't even bat an eye to ask anyone (or himself) why. That is where the "clear as day" starts.

In 15, a good example of this is that he doesn't question Brera's role on Frontier nor his purpose for arriving and helping Ranka. Previous episodes have shown that Brera is a threat (or enemy). And Alto has all the reasons to be upset with him for trying to harm his friends. However, he acts like a jealous boyfriend instead. He was there when Brera tried to kill him and there when he came to rescue Ranka, and also stating he was from Galaxy. Now, if we take his arrival earlier on (trying to kill Alto and his comrades) and his arrival now (proclaiming to be from Galaxy); where along these lines does it not become clear?

Had he not appeared beforehand and tried to kill them, had he not later stated he was from Galaxy, had he not rescued Ranka then; then I wouldn't be able to say it was clear as day who the enemy was.

And there's more pieces in which Alto was there to witness.

In 15, Alto was there when Mishima's guards came to collect Ranka. He never questioned why she was being summoned by the government!

So let's rehash for a bit: since 12, we (as the audience) have seen everything Alto has not (including Grace's betrayal). However, in the episodes to follow (14 and 15), Alto has been given hints and clues (some that are "clear as day").

So coming around to 15, Ranka is summoned by the government!
Me to Alto: "Hell, Alto; don't you think that's strange? Don't you think it's weird? How often does an idol or even just a normal teenager get summoned by the government WITHOUT having used their equipment? I sure as hell know Minmei wasn't--she volunteered. So why are you not questioning it?"

Don't you see? She is summoned by the government without a valid reason (whilst he's right next to her) and that makes it suspicious. He should have questioned it. He should've started putting the pieces together upon Brera's arrival but he didn't. Instead, it flew right over his head.

Then, the best of all happens: Grace becomes Ranka's manager.

Notice that when Alto assists Sheryl in later episodes, she mentions this; but he never finds it suspicious. And I often wonder why. List of people here:
- Sheryl Nome (from Galaxy, birthplace unknown)
- Grace O'Connor (from Galaxy, unknown to Alto that she's an elite)
- Brera Sterne (from Galaxy)
Okay, I know this may just be my perspective of Alto at this point: but don't you realize that Alto should be wondering why members of Galaxy outside of Sheryl are suddenly interested in Ranka, whom has been shown before him to influence the Vajra? By now, he knows Grace is from Galaxy (because of Sheryl) and Brera has stated outright that he's from Galaxy.

Alto never does the math until the final episode. That's the sad part about his character.

You can give your own view, hell; you can even add scenes that I haven't put up, but I'm positive it was clear to more than just Ozma and Catherine that something was going down. Alto just didn't want to put the math together. And I don't really blame him: lived on Frontier his whole life, wants to believe he's protecting people, and wants to protect Frontier with his life; but he sadly fails to see he's the one being setup.

By the way, as a side note: 13, Alto says "the data's been erased previously" in Macross Global. That was another clue he didn't think about.
Once again, it's not something unique to Alto. A lot of people ask questions about Brera and his magic fighter. Then he joins Frontier in episode 14 and everybody just shuts up about it.

Grace becoming Rankas manager? Leon inviting Ranka to meet with him? All legitimate government actions, later vindicated by Ranka becoming officially named as the one to save Frontier, even by President Glass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I think I will chop up to saying that Ranka simply wants to understand it all herself.

I know that sounds weird but think about it from your perspective for a moment: if you just remembered something absolutely traumatizing from your past, would you want to talk about it directly after or understand it first?

And in her shoes, she didn't really have time to understand it. She was lost. Which is why the later episodes start to show her growing weary of her connection to the Vajra.
Given that people are dying while you finding your own understanding of what you really feel about this new found connection? Yeah, I think she better talk to someone, instead of keeping it to herself.

Sometimes I wonder about you Ranka fans. Saying that Ranka just wanted to figure it out by herself and kept this vital information to herself because of that makes her much more callous than what motivations I ascribe to her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I have to say that Ozma and Catherine had been looking into their government's plot for a while yet. I suspect that Ozma had a clue when he requested Alto protect Ranka no matter what that the Vajra needed her for something or Mishima was going to use her. At this point, Ranka was summoned by the government and her singing had already influenced the Vajra once. So I'm inclined to say that there were people who were becoming suspicious, however, Alto wasn't one of them.

And remember that Michael and Klan were growing suspicious of Sheryl's illness enough to look into documents about the project she was in. There they found Grace was one of the researchers. From there, Michael and Klan both start to show suspicion.

Mishima and Grace were already aware of the plot.

The ones who remained unaware were Alto, Luca, Nanase, and slightly, Sheryl. Ranka was already starting to research or otherwise try and piece the plot together on her own.
Maybe we are talking about two different things at this moment? I'm not talking about the Galaxy plot, but rather about basic stuff like "Hey, the Vajra queen showed me an image of a human woman and talked to me through it. She sang my own song to me!". I think that would be of interest to the government of Frontier and the military.

But as I said, it's just brushed over on all sides, so I actually don't think the blame falls on Ranka, but on some shoddy plotting for that particular part of the story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
It was a slight excuse that Ozma made to Alto: "she found her own path, now what will you do" insinuated that S.M.S. was following that path believing it was righteous, not particularly "following Ranka" but rather the ideals she'd set believing that there was something else to the war. Remember that both Ozma and Catherine caught view of Ranka leaving even without knowing it was them, then read the letter she left. So it is obvious they wanted to "follow by example" and show Frontier who the true enemy was. At that point, they had enough to put Mishima away, but no resources to show it to the government (meaning others besides Mishima) without getting executed by Mishima.
Fair enough, good reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Series.

Yes. I also mentioned that Frontier attacked first. I'm left to assume that when Frontier disregarded Galaxy's S.O.S., they were unaware the Vajra would next attack Frontier, and so they went on the offensive right away. So I stand by my theory that Frontier attacked first.

The movie is a whole other story though that I don't feel like dipping into because the plot is so screwed up in terms of events on the timeline.
I see no evidence at all that Frontier attacked first, and two pieces of evidence that they did not. The conspirators talked about leading the Vajra to Frontier and in the first episode President Glass' dialogue indicates that Frontier had not met the Vajra before.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
The sad part about that is, in 21, Ranka was already gone. He'd already lost her. If he didn't want to lose Sheryl, he had to say something; but he didn't. Which holds my statement of he's indecisive.
Hm, maybe you can expound on what you exactly refer to, when you say "If he didn't want to lose Sheryl, he had to say something; but he didn't"? I cannot associate at the moment your sentence with any appropiate situation.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I'll just quote this and answer the whole thing to save space.

I'm sure we'll agree to disagree on this whole "whom he loved business," so I'll drop that.

However, at the time in which Ranka left, she really didn't understand the so-called "evidence" herself. She would sound like an insane person if she tried to explain everything to Alto at that point. And so, suicide mission or not, I can't truly blame her. She, herself, had little evidence to go by. All of her proof was in her memory, not written documents. What could she prove to Alto with memories when she's stated before that she has amnesia? Did you think he would take her seriously?

So I don't blame her nor Alto for this miscommunication here; because based on the time in which it happened (and Alto being completely oblivious to the changes in the government, even Glass' assassination) and the lack of written evidence to prove her points to him - Alto was left with no choice but to trust in his original ideals: the Vajra are enemies.

That coupled with Michael's recent death by one, and Nanase being injured... it kinda proves my point more.
Which point? Otherwise, it seems we agree here.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Complex? By this point, Alto has just found out she's dying. If he truly loves her, the woman he loves is dying. He made more of an upset about his mother dying than he did her. He should've been stating his feelings and then trying to make due with what time they had left together. Instead, he did not. And at this point, he's already lost Ranka; so nothing's holding him back. He doesn't know now if he'll see Ranka again or even if they'll be on the same side, so his indecision in this episode to state his feelings - in words - to Sheryl are chopped up to that "lack of reply" statement I made earlier, thus leading me along to believe still that he is "indecisive" and has feelings for both girls still.
As I said, it's complex. I already did talk a lot about that in the past, but writing it all up in one big post would take a lot of time. Suffice to say, both of them have complex feelings about the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
What makes her selfish?

I'll state in a simple fact: she doesn't ask him to communicate with her.

Back in 22, she didn't want to burden him, even in 23; but not once does she ask him to speak about his feelings. At this point, she should. Alto has repressed feelings about Ranka, the war, the Vajra, everything. He needs ventilation just like she did. He let her speak her mind. Why can Alto not do the same?

I hate to quote what someone once said but: "relationships need communication."

Sheryl is allowed to communicate but whenever Alto tries to communicate, she changes the subject or stops him. She doesn't cater to his feelings. He wants to speak. He wants to talk about his problems and his demons. He wants to open up to her (at least to speak about what's troubling him that day) but yet he cannot (not only because of her but himself). And instead of showing that she understands something is wrong in 23, she blushes, baffled at his fake smile and charming ways.

That comes off as selfish, especially in a relationship. If you don't acknowledge the other has something wrong and try to talk it out or at least ask if they are ready to, then you are being selfish, especially if you have already been allowed to or otherwise stated your problems and talked it out.
Outside of episode 23 and episode 19, I don't see many situations where Sheryl stops Alto from asking further questions. And there is a lot of development between those episodes, she had different and valid motivations both times.

Alto himself is not very open about his feelings in the series, so I think it is more of a situation where he himself doesn't feel like talking abouthis own feelings.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
No. She didn't. But Sheryl still should've acknowledged her in some way to show there's no hard feelings and to be a correct role model to Ranka.

Here's how it should have gone:
Miranda: Oh, it's Sheryl-san! (walks up) Sheryl-san, it's so great to see you!
Sheryl: Ah, thank you. It's nice to meet you. As I understand it, you are the lead. Good luck to you. (attention to Ranka again) Could you excuse me for a few moments? (passes her) Ranka-chan, I hear you too have a role in the movie.
Ranka: Yes.

Sheryl has shown manners before, even waved to her stunt team in episode one even though they'd pissed her off previously, so her excuse here baffles me. She should at least show proper educate to Miranda as a role model to Ranka. Also, when she first met Ranka, she showed proper educate, even complimented her.

Still, I like the scene regardless.
Well, I think Sheryl here was a victim of the writers wanting to show a funny scene of the big arrogant idol being bested at her own game, by someone who is an even bigger celebrity.

But taken the scene as presented, it's entirely possible that Sheryl saw what had just happened between Ranka and Miranda and was just dishing out some swift justice.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Once again, Alto could've done research. They weren't short of computers or data. Sheryl, on the other hand, I agree with; but however, the movie plan doesn't go along with your argument because Sheryl knew full well what was transpiring in Galaxy. The only thing she didn't know was that Frontier was their exact target.
To do proper research, you need sources. There were none. Unless the Galaxy conspirators like to plan their nefarious undertakings publicly.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I'll leave this discussion alone for now because I'm still moving and therefore my DVDs for Frontier are boxed up now But I promise to give you a full-scale explanation when I finishing moving hopefully by June.
No problem, I am pressed for time myself.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Yes, that's why I say the movie version of herself really doesn't have a reason to fight for Frontier. I mean, she's lived there a total of how many months at most? Probably 4 or 5. And she's really only grown attached to Alto and Ranka. So the series version of herself in the end (fighting for Frontier) was justified that she'd grown attached to others besides the other two in the triangle.
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I gave answers to this above since you didn't actually watch the series back to see it was there. But I don't blame you for writing this. I wasn't on at the time to answer any questions you had or statements.

But I assure you, I'm not seeing it from the 3rd person point of view. I simply stated above how Alto was in the area at the time of all of those clues and didn't put it together until 25.
Well, I already said why I disagree. To do research, you need sources who have the information you need and who are actually willing to give it up to you.


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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
And we're having fun.
I wish I could put in a bit more time, actually. ^^

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Except the longest running franchise to date is Frontier. But if we were to rewrite it as a triangle between two males and one female, we can't go off of Frontier to do so. We'd have to use Plus or 7, and they aren't exactly good examples because the characters are different this time around.

Albeit, Brera is the quiet type like Guld seemed in the beginning, it doesn't mean we could compare him to Guld and say Alto is Isamu.

I think you get my drift there.

Their personalities are too different.
Because the Macross franchise has gone with the non-obvious person as the winner of a romantic triangle a few times in its existance, I think that it would be hasty making any predictions based on what is normal nowadays in Japanese anime.
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