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View Poll Results: Shakugan no Shana III - Episode 17 Rating
Perfect 10 20 43.48%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 17 36.96%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 4 8.70%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 6.52%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 2.17%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 2.17%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-02-05, 10:56   Link #61
TheSeraph
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Awesome episode 10/10

Shana now has some support from the three gods and yuji meets with his old friends


and the soundtrack when Shana was talking to the Gods was awesome !
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Old 2012-02-05, 11:40   Link #62
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(...)
and the soundtrack when Shana was talking to the Gods was awesome !
I am so eager to put my hands on SnS III OST!!
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Old 2012-02-05, 11:49   Link #63
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Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire View Post
Not really, we still have not reached the middle portion of Volume 21. In my opinion, the safer bet is that the end of Volume 21 would be animated in Episode 20.
oh thanks for correcting me. I just said this because of what is happening now.. I mean Yoshida's there now...and as what I know vol. 21 we will see Yoshida there many times...... (I think...)
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Old 2012-02-05, 13:03   Link #64
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and the soundtrack when Shana was talking to the Gods was awesome !
It was indeed epic.

And, Yoshida, on a roll.
But she sees all those monsters at the rooftop and she decides to run away.

I wonder if Yuji knows that Xanadu will have a catastrophic consequences the world in the far future. Though, even if he does, as long as he can free Shana of her role I get the feeling that he won't care.

By the way, was there a reason why Misaki City/Japan had to be chosen for the war?
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Old 2012-02-05, 13:34   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Nochgo View Post

I wonder if Yuji knows that Xanadu will have a catastrophic consequences the world in the far future. Though, even if he does, as long as he can free Shana of her role I get the feeling that he won't care.
But will it?
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Old 2012-02-05, 14:57   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Isekaijin View Post
What about the Crimsom Realm, Guze or whatever the other world from they come is called. Flame Hazes exists precisely because among the denziens, there are ones who give them their power with the explicit purpose of killing them to preserve the balance. If this was completely necesary they wouldn't do that, instead we would be seeing Alastor and co, gleefully devouring PoE. And did any of the tomogara seen until now said PoE keeps them alive? Friagne, the Aizen siblings, Lamies, Dantalion, Bal Masque. All of them had personal motives to crave for PoE.



I won't claim they are saints but the scale is completely off. Also it's not just one of them. Every single one of the tomogara sided with Bal Masque is in Earth precisely to consume PoE, and you know what it means. Using your Hitler analogy, they are basically letting the Nazis go to a nice vacation in another planet and it's ok because they won't be around anymore.


And still there are unanswered questions. Why Yuuji suddenly understands them? He was killing them in the second season, What the hell did SotF told him? They are still a threat. A threat which grew since he began to lead them. He said it himself that the order to not eat humans is just restricted to Japan. And still the massacre of a weak and morally devastated Flame Haze army strikes me as unnecesary. If he is so sure of his plan why don't just retreat? I know that in war sacrifices are made but still he is still letting way too many people die.



Their existence as humans was deleted. When they became Flame Hazes hunting Tomogara became not only a duty, most of them are solely motivated for revenge. And would you call won a war where 80% of your allies were KIA?

And last time I checked, being inmortal condemns you to a life of solitude. Save exceptions, most Flame Hazes are supossed to be damn antisocial due to their long lifespans.


Please don't get mad, I'm not trolling or anything. I just want a satisfying explanation to all of this mess. Most tomogaras are evil, that much was hammered into my head in the first two seasons of the anime and the first 7 volumes of the LN. I can't suddenly picture them as the good guys just because Yuuji is siding with them now. And since Yuuji isn't explaining the main points of his plan it isn't a surprise Shana wants to stop him.
I think you have some comprehension issues. Like for instance, the comment you quoted wasn't in reference to the flame haze. It's responding to your trait of thought on the matter. Your response was just completely off.

Even your other posts, just seems that you're just not understanding what others are saying... well that's ok, but you should read and think about what you just read for a moment before commenting.

The series isn't as black and white as you may think it is. There is no Good or Evil, right or wrong. The sides were intentionally made Grey to give the story more depth. If you're quick to say one side is evil and the other is good than you're not understanding the story.
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Old 2012-02-05, 15:07   Link #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nochgo View Post
It was indeed epic.

And, Yoshida, on a roll.
But she sees all those monsters at the rooftop and she decides to run away.

I wonder if Yuji knows that Xanadu will have a catastrophic consequences the world in the far future. Though, even if he does, as long as he can free Shana of her role I get the feeling that he won't care.

By the way, was there a reason why Misaki City/Japan had to be chosen for the war?
I can't imagine that Yuji is in the dark about the future consequences of this plan. He talked about Shana not approving of "uncertain attempts based on hopeful wishes" and in a sense that's what he's doing here. He's hoping that creating this world won't have disastrous consequences in the future. Yuji is shooting for an ideal where people aren't eaten by Tomogara and Shana is free to live without those burdens. I think he's willing to gamble the future of all life so he can achieve this. But the fact that the disaster is a possibility is enough for Shana to take action. Yuji can't guarantee the certainty that Shana needs and thus here we are.
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Old 2012-02-05, 15:16   Link #68
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
I think you have some comprehension issues. Like for instance, the comment you quoted wasn't in reference to the flame haze. It's responding to your trait of thought on the matter. Your response was just completely off.

Even your other posts, just seems that you're just not understanding what others are saying... well that's ok, but you should read and think about what you just read for a moment before commenting.

The series isn't as black and white as you may think it is. There is no Good or Evil, right or wrong. The sides were intentionally made Grey to give the story more depth. If you're quick to say one side is evil and the other is good than you're not understanding the story.
Well I guess there are some things I'm still not aware of. I still have my doubts, hopefully they will be resolved before the end of the series.

Thanks people for putting up with me.
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Old 2012-02-05, 15:19   Link #69
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
I think you have some comprehension issues. Like for instance, the comment you quoted wasn't in reference to the flame haze. It's responding to your trait of thought on the matter. Your response was just completely off.

Even your other posts, just seems that you're just not understanding what others are saying... well that's ok, but you should read and think about what you just read for a moment before commenting.

The series isn't as black and white as you may think it is. There is no Good or Evil, right or wrong. The sides were intentionally made Grey to give the story more depth. If you're quick to say one side is evil and the other is good than you're not understanding the story.
Well I must agree a little with HayashiTakara, comparing the tomogaras to Nazi is a little too harsh... We can't see things that black and white: even in World History there isn't a right or wrong side. The thing about the Tomogaras is that they can live with a few amount of PoE (like Pheles did, after promising Johan she wouldn't eat more humans), but they are weaker that way. Remember Sabrac and Mare? Mare wanted more, she wanted to be stronger to stay by Sabrac's side, but since what she had was so "little", she couldn't. It's like eating a good Portuguese seafood dish and Mcdonald's food: both are able to feed our hunger, but they are not the same...
I don't blame the tomogaras, they have ambition, like we humans do.

Both are correct, and in the same time they may be wrong. I think both Flame Hazes and Yuji have good points of view and the story is very well developed, but since this last season is so different from, at least, the second one, many fans are complaining about these recent events and turn of story - I don't!! For me this season actually shows how deep SnS really is.

EDIT:Isekaijin, it's ok to have doubts! I am expecting the end of the series to be explosive and to answer many questions that are to be explained.
As for the Flame Haze side, Shana and co have a point: Xanadu may not be dangerous now, but in a far future the distortion may increase and make a disaster.
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Old 2012-02-05, 17:03   Link #70
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nicely done at the end of the walk, his generals are lining up and waiting for him

not sure why Yoshida is needed tho
You see, Yuji and Yoshida are an item. Without one another, they are incomplete. When together, there is absolutely nothing which they cannot accomplish. Yuji's trying something very large, so he naturally would need to accomplish it with his love by his side - possibly in the end asking her to make the ultimate sacrifice so they could live on together forever.

Mutual love is a powerful thing.
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Old 2012-02-05, 17:40   Link #71
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Okay, I'm getting a little bit confused by this episode now, so let me lay it out and see if I got this straight

The Issue
>Creation of a Xanadu, a parallel world that's an exact copy right up to the humans.
>Tomogaras migrating to Xanadu (Which I assume has no flame haze?)
>Flame Hazes and Humans left in original world


Flame Haze/Shana Perspective
>Tomogaras will repeat their actions in new world
>POE in Xanadu will be unbalanced in the future
>Rift storm created that will affect all 3 worlds
>BAD END

Okay, from the flame haze perspective, what the Tomogaras will do isn't just only morally wrong (pushing all troubles to innocent Xanadu) but also has a chance to affect their own world is the distant future.

From their perspective, it quite seems like they're the one in the right.


SNH/Yuji Perspective
>Tomogara, instead of repeating devouring actions, actively coexist with humans
>No more supernatural fighting, POE stable in orginal world with Flame Haze, New world with Tomogaras
>Balance to all worlds
>Good End?

Sounds cools, but can't this happen in the original world? Or is it too distorted to happen? Or is it because of the hatred between Flame Hazes and Tomogaras that cannot be erased?

From SNH/Yuji's perspective, it seems optimistic and almost slightly foolish, if Tomogaras still need POE to exist. Won't they still have to feed in the new world? Still, if it can actually happen, might be best end?


Anyway am I getting this right? Or is there something I'm missing?
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Old 2012-02-05, 17:41   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
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Originally Posted by Isekaijin View Post
And did any of the tomogara seen until now said PoE keeps them alive? Friagne, the Aizen siblings. All of them had personal motives to crave for PoE.
Unlike humans, Tomogara have unreplenishiable existence and more importantly, because they are alien to this world, they must actively burn Existence to manifest (顕現する) themselves in this world.

And anout Guze itself, physics and the things normal humans perceive with the senses don't apply there, everything there is just a chaotic mass of energy that is constantly changing.

Because of that, the Tomogara can't have any meaningful existence there to speak of since everything is so fluid.

They themselves are formless in there in fact.
For sure, we can exclude Bal Masque as villains, because they consume the existence of human, in a noble bid to help SotF Yuji create Xanadu. In other words, some sacrifices are needed for greater good in the future.

What about Friagne and the Aizen siblings? I do not see any greater good in their action in devouring humans to exist in this world, other than their selfish reasons. Besides that, they are not affiliated with Bal Masque. There is why I agree with part of Isekaijin's argument.

As most of you have said, we should describe Bal Masque as the grey side. However, in my opinion, Friagne and the Aizen siblings should be classified as the evil side.

This is just my opinion, though. Please correct me if I have said anything wrong.
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Old 2012-02-05, 19:40   Link #73
Marcus H.
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>Rift storm created that will affect all 3 worlds
I understand the Flame Haze's fears with this certain event happening if ever Xanadu is created. This rift storm can and will destroy ALL THREE WORLDS and will be more powerful than the Gods of the Crimson Realm combined.

Quote:
>Balance to all worlds
I seriously doubt that even the Snake of the Festival can achieve such a tall order even as the God of Creation. For one, Earth is now highly distorted following the war, the Crimson Realm has countless (literally) casualties from denizens who travel to Earth and get killed there, and Xanadu is a complete unknown.

Snakey going Kyuubey for the entire human race is not gonna help him with the resources needed for Xanadu.
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Old 2012-02-05, 19:58   Link #74
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire View Post
For sure, we can exclude Bal Masque as villains, because they consume the existence of human, in a noble bid to help SotF Yuji create Xanadu. In other words, some sacrifices are needed for greater good in the future.

What about Friagne and the Aizen siblings? I do not see any greater good in their action in devouring humans to exist in this world, other than their selfish reasons. Besides that, they are not affiliated with Bal Masque. There is why I agree with part of Isekaijin's argument.

As most of you have said, we should describe Bal Masque as the grey side. However, in my opinion, Friagne and the Aizen siblings should be classified as the evil side.

This is just my opinion, though. Please correct me if I have said anything wrong.
Of course...most Tomogara are out for their own reasons but then again so is everyone else on the other side. There is no black and white here
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Old 2012-02-05, 20:26   Link #75
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Originally Posted by Senshigeia View Post
Well I must agree a little with HayashiTakara, comparing the tomogaras to Nazi is a little too harsh... We can't see things that black and white: even in World History there isn't a right or wrong side. The thing about the Tomogaras is that they can live with a few amount of PoE (like Pheles did, after promising Johan she wouldn't eat more humans), but they are weaker that way.
In all fairness she had the Reiji Mago to sustain herself.

And the Corpse Retriever uses torches that are about to burn out which would not affect the balance.

Those two are special exceptions and cannot be replicated by others.

Though I'm curious about the trio that Pheles was looking for.

Quote:
Remember Sabrac and Mare? Mare wanted more, she wanted to be stronger to stay by Sabrac's side, but since what she had was so "little", she couldn't. It's like eating a good Portuguese seafood dish and Mcdonald's food: both are able to feed our hunger, but they are not the same...
I don't blame the tomogaras, they have ambition, like we humans do.
Uh yeah sorry but kinda hard to be sympathetic with the Tomogaras in general when we're just cattle to them. Especially when they achieve their miracles by consuming lots of humans to do it.
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Old 2012-02-05, 21:03   Link #76
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This is the best interpretation i could think of.

A group of criminals figured out a special way of getting out of jail. When they succeeded and escaped, said tecnique was used around the world in many prisons. These escaped criminals slaughtered any who would make them go back to jail, and fought for they're freedom. Now a powerful figure has stepped up and taken command as the head of the organization behind the uprisings. He intends to seize a city and turn it into a city of crime where all criminals can live happily ever after. But he fails and gets thrown into a highly secured assylum.

In the meantime these criminals fight to survive killing any who would make them go back to jail. A few years later with the help of his organization the powerful figure escapes from the asylum, and declares that instead of seizing a city he intends to create his own. But the creation of said city would lead to a increase in crime around the world, and isn't supported by any government. Retalliations are made, but the government refuses to swiftly clear the ongoing threat due to the amount of controversy it'll bring about............the rest will just bring spoilers//

I get that the tomogara aren't criminals but they have no right to be in this world to begin with, so they don't deserve your sympathy.
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Old 2012-02-05, 21:48   Link #77
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Originally Posted by syke123 View Post
This is the best interpretation i could think of.

A group of criminals figured out a special way of getting out of jail. When they succeeded and escaped, said tecnique was used around the world in many prisons. These escaped criminals slaughtered any who would make them go back to jail, and fought for they're freedom. Now a powerful figure has stepped up and taken command as the head of the organization behind the uprisings. He intends to seize a city and turn it into a city of crime where all criminals can live happily ever after. But he fails and gets thrown into a highly secured assylum.

In the meantime these criminals fight to survive killing any who would make them go back to jail. A few years later with the help of his organization the powerful figure escapes from the asylum, and declares that instead of seizing a city he intends to create his own. But the creation of said city would lead to a increase in crime around the world, and isn't supported by any government. Retalliations are made, but the government refuses to swiftly clear the ongoing threat due to the amount of controversy it'll bring about............the rest will just bring spoilers//

I get that the tomogara aren't criminals but they have no right to be in this world to begin with, so they don't deserve your sympathy.
The rest of your analogy is pretty good, but the part I bolded is a bit off.

For the analogy to work, the creation of this Crime City would, at least in the short-to-medium term, lead to a decrease in crime around the world. But there's the question of what might happen if, some decades in the future, this new Crime City would implode upon itself, bringing problems for the rest of the world.

In the short to medium-term, Crime City would almost certainly make things better for the rest of the world. But in the long-term, it may well worsen matters.

Yuji's willing to take that risk, while Shana isn't. That's basically what it comes down to, and it's thankfully reflective of how Yuji has always been the more optimistic of the two (thus managing to make the conflict between the two not destroy either of their established characterizations). I can see where both are coming from here.


That being said, almost all tomogara are criminals. They essentially kill/murder innocent people. If anything, you could argue that what they do is even worse than that. I'm honestly a bit disappointed at how casually that's being excused on this thread, it seems. This much, at least, is clear-cut evil, in my view. What most tomogara do is incredibly destructive and harmful to others. If they could be charged in a normal court of law, almost all of them would be serving life sentences for serial killing, or even facing capital punishment in some countries.

Honestly, I could understand the Flame Haze not wanting these criminals getting to go to a paradise after the crimes they've committed. At a deeper unstated level, this might be a motivation for some of them.


Yuji (as in the mystes off of a consumed human; as in not Snake of the Festival) isn't doing this for the tomogara. He's doing this first and foremost for Shana, to free her from a life of endless conflict and almost certain death in combat at some point. A likely secondary motive is the short to mid-term benefit of humanity as a whole. Yuji's chief goals are just conveniently compatible with Snake of the Festival's goals; I doubt Yuji cares much for the tomogara or the Flame Hazes in general.

Bal Masque is merely his tool, not his new best buds, as funny as the idea might be.


Anyway, this was a pretty good episode. I very much liked the 2nd half, and the first half was decent. Good to see the main human characters in this maintain some relevance right to the end.

9/10.
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Old 2012-02-05, 22:56   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That being said, almost all tomogara are criminals. They essentially kill/murder innocent people. If anything, you could argue that what they do is even worse than that. I'm honestly a bit disappointed at how casually that's being excused on this thread, it seems. This much, at least, is clear-cut evil, in my view. What most tomogara do is incredibly destructive and harmful to others. If they could be charged in a normal court of law, almost all of them would be serving life sentences for serial killing, or even facing capital punishment in some countries.

Honestly, I could understand the Flame Haze not wanting these criminals getting to go to a paradise after the crimes they've committed. At a deeper unstated level, this might be a motivation for some of them.
This is "that" discussion all over again. Is it inherently evil if what they are doing is essential for their survival? Which is why I have been asking/wondering for sometime that whether the Denizens need PoE to live on earth, or whether to simply fuel their magic. Apparently very little even among the novel readers, know this for sure.

Though from what I get, Guze and Denizens does have PoE of their own(possibly where Flame Hazes draw most of their powers from, through their contractor Lord), but since they are alien to our world, they need a local source of PoE to continue existing here. Which comes to the question why do they want to live here in the first place, which seems to be because Guze exists differently than our world: everything there is formless PoE of everything mixed in. Denizens wants to live as we do: tangible forms and all. Though in the process, they got drunk with all the power and started taking a lot more than they need.

That's what I've heard anyways (and pretty much the only explanation that makes sense). I don't know for sure.
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Old 2012-02-05, 23:12   Link #79
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Quote:
This is "that" discussion all over again. Is it inherently evil if what they are doing is essential for their survival? Which is why I have been asking/wondering for sometime that whether the Denizens need PoE to live on earth, or whether to simply fuel their magic. Apparently very little even among the novel readers, know this for sure.
Soooo eating humans isn't evil?

If they manifest on Earth they need PoE to sustain themselves. This is why they eat humans to begin with. If Alastor or any crimson lord decides to manifest themselves on Earth from a Flame Haze they need PoE to do so.

Quote:
Denizens wants to live as we do: tangible forms and all. Though in the process, they got drunk with all the power and started taking a lot more than they need.
Simply eating humans is what is screwing up the balance between the two worlds. Then there are those that eat more than necessary in order to perform major miracles or spells and that causes even more damage.
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Old 2012-02-05, 23:44   Link #80
syke123
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The rest of your analogy is pretty good, but the part I bolded is a bit off.

For the analogy to work, the creation of this Crime City would, at least in the short-to-medium term, lead to a decrease in crime around the world. But there's the question of what might happen if, some decades in the future, this new Crime City would implode upon itself, bringing problems for the rest of the world.
Your right, it would decrease crime since the tomogara would directly go into Xanadu from Guze instead of the human world. There will be less humans losing they're existence in the human world. But what about in Xanadu? They'll be killing the human replacements as they like, how would that be any different? It lowers crime rate in one region but raises crime in another by tenfold. Even if they were created to be fakes they still exist, going by the logic that SnH created them would mean that some Tomogara created our world, and that we're someones creation. If the flame hazes won't stand the loss of life in our world, why would they, in this new world? The same morales and logic should be applied to both worlds since they'll both exist, and we're both created by something.


I think Shana is priority 2 on Yuji's list. Protecting the city he lives in and moving every tomogara out of his world comes first, or so I assume. I'm not denying the feelings they hold for each other, but doing this solely for the purpose of protecting her doesn't seem right at all. From the type of character he has I could already tell that if he had the strength, he would eliminate all tomogara without the slightest hint of hesitation.

And even if they all did move into Xanadu, it'll be like hosting hundreds of thousands of websites on the same server. Regardless there'll still be greedy tomogara that want more poe than the bare minimum to survive.
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