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Old 2012-02-05, 22:08   Link #27741
Toku
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yea, but what about LION?

My theory was that Lion was made gender-ambiguous because Yasu didn't know what gender she was born as.
Wouldn't it be pretty hard to not know what gender you were born as? I'm trying to find an elegant way to put this, but there's really just no way... I mean, when you go to use the restroom, it should be evident.

Unless, if you just never learned anything... But, Yasuda had an education, at least.
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Old 2012-02-05, 22:26   Link #27742
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If her injury forced Nanjo to make her a eunuch, and then she was raised as a girl, it's entirely reasonable for her to grow up thinking her body is normal for a girl. After all, she never had to share a room with anyone, and she didn't have any real romantic experience.
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Old 2012-02-05, 22:29   Link #27743
Toku
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No, but...

...

...Alright. I'll leave it at that. And at any rate, since the gender is ambiguous, it's useless for me to insist she's a girl.
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Old 2012-02-05, 22:39   Link #27744
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
What bothers me is that the only piece of evidence that Yasuda might be a boy is this thing in EP5.

Furthermore, I could even take AuraTwilight's argument and twist it to say that since the premise for each game can be radically changed at will, Yasuda can be a male in one game and a female in another.

And one more thing. The only scenes in which Natsuhi referred to TMF19YA with a gender (phone scenes and the scene where she asked Genji if the newcomer was a guy) didn't have a Detective present and therefore can easily be thrown into the darkness of the Witch. During her confession scene at the end, I distinctly recall her referring to it as "that baby" or something. I should really go back and reread that scene though...
Yasu was born male, was sexually disfigured from the fall as a baby, was raised female, and as a result had a gender crisis in her adolescence.

It's not provable or anything, but it's the best conclusion out there that ties everything together. And there isn't a hint anywhere to suggest otherwise.
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Old 2012-02-06, 01:02   Link #27745
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I was just re-reading some old mystery novel, and it made me wonder some things. But before I keep on pondering about some matters, I'd like to confirm some things since I've uninstalled the first 4 episodes and I have no way to re-read them (nor do I feel like reinstalling it just for this).

What do you think are the chances for poisoning to have taken place in Rokkenjima - probably with Arsenic involved? Also, what are the chances that drugs were used in the island - anything like scopolamine, cocaine, marijuana and the ilk?

If you'd say there's a positive answer for any of those questions, what evidence would you say there is to support it?

Quote:
On the "Yasu's gender" matter
Personally, I think she's always been female. My take on this is that, after she fell from that cliff when she was a baby, her reproductive organs got damaged.
She probably grew up without ever knowing about this, and she only got to learn about it in the scene we saw in EP7.
The reason why she reacted the way she did - other than the shock she must have been through - is probably based on the way people thought back then in Japan.
Given that she could not bear children, she probably thought she couldn't fulfil her purpose as a woman and thus she was unable to be loved. This is probably why she referred to herself as furniture, as she could only be a tool for pleasure, but not for love, since she couldn't bear children. In addition to that, the fact she couldn't serve her purpose as a woman probably made her think of herself as being less than human.

The reason why she created Kanon was, probably, because she thought that since she wasn't a proper woman she could as well be a male, but notice Kanon was always aloof, probably because he couldn't play his role either. Furthermore, Kanon's existence was always presented as something rather ephemeral.

As for Lion, I think she's very meta. Lion, as I see it, is a representation of much of the information of the cat box Beatrice represents, placed in a what-if scenario. Notice she looks like an older Jessica, wears some sort of red suit like Krauss yet part of the design matches Natsuhi's dress. In addition to that, she's Kinzo's appointed heir to the family headship. The reason why Lion's sex is a mystery is there to exist as a parallel to Yasu's mind in regards to her own sexuality.
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Last edited by Used Can; 2012-02-06 at 01:18.
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Old 2012-02-06, 01:15   Link #27746
AuraTwilight
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And why does Natsuhi think the baby was a "Man", then?
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Old 2012-02-06, 01:22   Link #27747
Used Can
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And why does Natsuhi think the baby was a "Man", then?
She thinks she's friends with Beatrice and that Kinzo ever cared about her.
Fuck Natsuhi.
Anyhow, Natsuhi never seemed to be particularly close to the baby. So, given that Kinzo gave it to her to be raised as the future heir of the family, I'd say there's a probability she assumed the baby was male.

Notice, though, Natsuhi did have a huge complex for being unable to bear children.
I think someone posted a screencap about that from some earlier episodes, not so long ago.
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Old 2012-02-06, 01:37   Link #27748
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Quote:
She thinks she's friends with Beatrice and that Kinzo ever cared about her.
Fuck Natsuhi.
Natsuhi: "Hey man, fuck you. All those things are true in Rokkenjima Prime, what now, yo?"
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Old 2012-02-06, 04:26   Link #27749
Used Can
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Natsuhi: "Hey man, fuck you. All those things are true in Rokkenjima Prime, what now, yo?"
We'll ma'am... Uhhh... I...



Anyhow, I'll be uploading some excerpts from a book later on. I wish to know what you guys make out of that info, though I'm sure some of you have read that book already. The book is old enough and it is out of print; so, I guess there will be no problems with me sharing those few pages.

Anyhow, if anyone could answer my previous questions, that'd be much appreciated.
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Old 2012-02-06, 06:33   Link #27750
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Guys anyone looking at George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, or Genji's corpses could confirm at a glance that they are dead , UNLESS they want to lie right???? .... What does this line mean??? why is EP5 filled with so much BULL***..
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Old 2012-02-06, 08:01   Link #27751
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Anyhow, Natsuhi never seemed to be particularly close to the baby. So, given that Kinzo gave it to her to be raised as the future heir of the family, I'd say there's a probability she assumed the baby was male.
What's important is that Yasu or whoever made that phone call thought Natsuhi would think the baby had been male. They wouldn't have any way of knowing if Natsuhi had ever been in the room for a diaper change or anything like that, and Natsuhi probably would've been a lot less shaken if she got a call from "the man from 19 years ago", but remembered that the baby was a girl (though I think she would have been shaken by the incident being brought up regardless).
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Old 2012-02-06, 08:21   Link #27752
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Originally Posted by Misuzu View Post
What's important is that Yasu or whoever made that phone call thought Natsuhi would think the baby had been male. They wouldn't have any way of knowing if Natsuhi had ever been in the room for a diaper change or anything like that, and Natsuhi probably would've been a lot less shaken if she got a call from "the man from 19 years ago", but remembered that the baby was a girl (though I think she would have been shaken by the incident being brought up regardless).
The person who calls never states that they are male, if you look closely. It's Genji who says it's a young man, but then again, Natsuhi herself is never sure about the caller's gender, she just sticks with the theory of it being a man. If I remember correctly, she does say something like 'no...it might also be a woman' or whatever. The only thing that should pose a problem is Genji saying it was a young man, because Genji should be in on it too...But then again, Genji had means of knowing that Natsuhi hadn't even beein in the room for a diaper change, right?

Quote:
Guys anyone looking at George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, or Genji's corpses could confirm at a glance that they are dead , UNLESS they want to lie right???? .... What does this line mean??? why is EP5 filled with so much BULL***..
It means, that you would think they were dead if they just looked at them and didn't look closer. Then again, this 'confirm' is a dangerous word, since it may imply that they really were dead, so here's another theory which is more statisfying than the previous:

Looking at their CORPSES anyone would confirm they were dead. But looking at the actual PERSON (reffering to the alive George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa and Genji) they may or may not mistake them for being dead. So, what if they didn't get to see the actual corpses rather than the respective people playacting?

Spoiler for Just me fooling around:
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Old 2012-02-06, 11:44   Link #27753
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
Guys anyone looking at George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, or Genji's corpses could confirm at a glance that they are dead , UNLESS they want to lie right???? .... What does this line mean??? why is EP5 filled with so much BULL***..
Probably due to, uhm, love.


Even Genji could have known Natsuhi and the child...come on, he could not be sure that Natsuhi NEVER did see his/her genital (Devil Proof and so). Why couldn't he go for the safe option and just say that there're "someone" on the phone, instead of some "young man"?
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Old 2012-02-06, 12:43   Link #27754
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Probably due to, uhm, love.
Probably due to some people's unwillingess to spent a minute or two to think.

Quote:
Even Genji could have known Natsuhi and the child...come on, he could not be sure that Natsuhi NEVER did see his/her genital (Devil Proof and so). Why couldn't he go for the safe option and just say that there're "someone" on the phone, instead of some "young man"?
I actually went and re-read the scene in question. Genji doesn't openly say 'it was a young man'. He says he's unsure about the caller's identity, carefully trying to avoid disclosing any information unless asked, and when Natsuhi asks what they sound like, he says 'I believe it was a young man'. Now, that seems to be the most safe choice to go with, because it's easier to have a heavily voiced woman than a high-pitched voiced man to the point where you'd mistake them for a woman.

As for the Devil's Proof concerning Genji's certainty that Natsuhi hadn't seen the baby's genital, it's possible to know whether Natsuhi didn't even hold it once in the three days she kept it.
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Old 2012-02-06, 13:00   Link #27755
battle22
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Probably due to some people's unwillingess to spent a minute or two to think.
I dont know how you meant this words , but i took it as offensive. I think it is quite rude to say that. EP5 is hard to undestand and you know it. I do think about everything and i figured EP5 in my own way. Im just intrested what others think.
...Sorry if i mistook you incorrectly. If that's the case please accept my apology.
PS. Sorry if i made a spelling error. Eng not my native
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Old 2012-02-06, 13:01   Link #27756
Misuzu
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
The person who calls never states that they are male, if you look closely.
I just checked, and they call themselves Natsuhi's son and Jessica's brother. I grabbed a bunch of screencaps while I was checking, hopefully they'll be helpful.

Spoiler for caps:
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Old 2012-02-06, 13:43   Link #27757
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I actually was thinking about this a bit earlier. I dunno - for ME, while I accept that the pieces, as we see them, are being seen through a content filter made of certain assumptions, on the real world level, like OUR WORLD, I think Ryukishi, generally speaking, portrayed the pieces as the people they were in their actual lives.

There's alot more that can be said on the matter, but my opinion at it's shallowest is "I doubt Ryukishi strayed VERY far from how he thought these characters would actually behave." Otherwise you get something like him saying "Well, Natsuhi is a super-intellectual yet foul mouthed floozy. But when I write my gameboard, I think she'll play the prim, uptight housewife." I mean, yeah that's possible, but really, now.
Here's the thing though: Ryukishi didn't write the message bottle stories. Well, I mean he did, but he was writing them as another person. This person has not seen Battler, specifically, out of the rest of the whole family, in 6 years. Everyone else, this person has seen more recently.

In order to know anything accurate about Battler's personality, the message bottle writer must write the stories post-incident, and even then she has only a day or two to go on, at best. Pre-incident, she cannot know anything about Battler at all. Period.

If she doesn't know what Battler is like after six years, she will probably write him like the person she remembered him to be as a child. That might somewhat explain the less nuanced parts of Piece-Battler's personality, as he's mentally twelve years old. It's kind of like how BATTLER patronizes Ange because to him she's a six-year-old and he doesn't know the Ange of 12 years after that point.

However, this may not be even remotely accurate to Battler's personality. Fact is, Battler-Prime is a complete unknown. He might not even look like he was said to. We don't know. Tohya doesn't know. Nobody knows. That's sort of the core of some people's "Battler Culprit" ideas. Since we have no idea who he really was, Battler-Prime could be the killer that Meta-Battler was unable to find among the pieces (because the Battler there was not the same person). Of course, he could also have been a saint. Since we don't know anything about him, it's hard to judge.

Well, a counterpoint to this: If Yasu were secretly in contact with Battler more often than we know, she could know him accurately. But we have no evidence of this ever actually being the case.
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Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
Does anyone feel disgusted toward the way ep VIII characters act toward the pieces?

I mean when they play the games during the party... only Jessica seems concerned about it, the others don't care. It seems a little weird considering they were pieces them-self during ep I-IV.
No, you're right, it's perfectly understandable and even admirable that you feel disgust, because the way the characters behave in ep8 is distressingly amoral and, in some cases, possibly even downright evil.
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Old 2012-02-06, 13:43   Link #27758
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
I dont know how you meant this words , but i took it as offensive. I think it is quite rude to say that. EP5 is hard to undestand and you know it. I do think about everything and i figured EP5 in my own way. Im just intrested what others think....Sorry if i mistook you incorrectly. If that's the case please accept my apology.
If I offended you, then allow me to apologize, this wasn't my intention, I was simply being sarcastic, since ndgnah vn's ironic comment about EP5 was filled with b****it because of love bothered me a little. I didn't want to doubt anyone's thinking nor did I imply EP5 was easy -it's my personal hardest, after all-, and it was definitely not directed at you personally, but to the people who despise and disrespect the series as being impossible to solve, and not giving us the answers, because that's just their own unwillingess to think. That just came off by the respect I have for the series and its author, so I get quite bothered when people whine about it being impossible to solve, while the opposite has been guaranteed SOOOO many times. Again, I apologize if it came off as rude.

Quote:
I just checked, and they call themselves Natsuhi's son and Jessica's brother. I grabbed a bunch of screencaps while I was checking, hopefully they'll be helpful.
Indeed, that is something to think about, which gives rise to a new theory:
Since the Cat Box concerning Yasu's gender hasn't been opened, Lambda, the Game Master can show either of the two truths (male or female) and it will be true either way until the Cat Box is offered. So, the 'young man' part can be added by the Game Master as a theme for the particular episode to confuse us without being a falsehood at the same time, literally, just Ryukishi07 trolling us without mercy...: Heh:
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Old 2012-02-06, 14:08   Link #27759
GreyZone
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Well, there is still the theory that End was made by witch-hunters.

If that is true, then most of it's content, including the gender of "child of 19 years ago", is actually... irrelevant.
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Old 2012-02-06, 14:10   Link #27760
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Well, there is still the theory that End was made by witch-hunters.

If that is true, then most of it's content, including the gender of "child of 19 years ago" is actually... irrelevant.
Not so. It raises a critical question, which is: How did the author of End know any of this?

Hell, this applies even if Tohya wrote it. How did anyone know?
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